Cook'd and Bomb'd

Forums => Picture Box => Topic started by: mothman on May 15, 2019, 09:42:58 PM

Title: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: mothman on May 15, 2019, 09:42:58 PM
It’s a “Conundrum,” really. We could continue with the existing Star Trek Discovery s2 thread, but would that be doing Patrick Stewart’s new show “Justice?” Far better to create its own thread, a “Haven” for news as it were.

At this point I got bored of finding ways to include Star Trek TNG episode titles...

Anyway, an image from the show. Including what looks like a Starfleet uniform off to one side.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6om4fWW0AE_xa2?format=jpg&name=large)

https://twitter.com/KateAurthur/status/1128757437081821185
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: mothman on May 15, 2019, 09:45:14 PM
... and the name has been confirmed to be, yes, Star Trek: Picard.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on May 15, 2019, 10:39:16 PM
Makes sense since it’s the big draw for the series.

Outside of the US Discovery is on Netflix, but not Picard. That’s going to be on Amazon Prime.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Pranet on May 16, 2019, 07:22:06 AM
Bollocks. I've got access to Netflix but not Amazon Prime.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on May 16, 2019, 05:41:13 PM
It's annoying but I suppose you can't blame CBS over what was probably quite an energetic and profitable bidding war.

Here's the logo.

(http://cdn.collider.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/star-trek-picard-logo-slice.jpeg)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on May 16, 2019, 10:14:11 PM
Here's the logo.

(http://cdn.collider.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/star-trek-picard-logo-slice.jpeg)

Wow! They must have spent all of 5 minutes on that.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Shaky on May 17, 2019, 01:36:06 AM
Tee logo is fine - simple and classic.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Shaky on May 17, 2019, 08:49:00 AM
The logo is fine - simple and classic.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: JamesTC on May 18, 2019, 12:56:25 AM
The Picard part is fine but not using the TNG font for "STAR TREK" just seems out of place.

I thought it might be that they use that version of the logo for everything but Discovery is different so here they have just lazily slapped on the TOS logo.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: St_Eddie on May 18, 2019, 06:39:26 AM
(http://cdn.collider.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/star-trek-picard-logo-slice.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/C4Alxyg.jpg?1)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: greenman on May 18, 2019, 06:46:40 AM
Picard is transported back in time and becomes a kung fu master in the prime universe and shouts a lot.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on May 18, 2019, 07:21:57 AM
I hope Patrick Stewart was paid a fortune for this. If he gets a couple of cars out of it then fair enough.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: olliebean on May 18, 2019, 09:25:37 AM
Fucking lensflare on that logo is triggering me.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Replies From View on May 18, 2019, 12:19:17 PM
Fucking lensflare on that logo is triggering me.

Couldn’t be helped!  It’s just what happened naturally with the camera used!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: St_Eddie on May 18, 2019, 12:46:54 PM
Couldn’t be helped!  It’s just what happened naturally with the camera used!

Actually, I heard that J.J. Abrams didn't like the direction that Star Trek was taking without him at the helm, so he snuck into the CBS offices under the cover of darkness and photoshopped some lens flare onto the logo.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: biggytitbo on May 18, 2019, 01:24:27 PM
It'd be better if it was actually called 'Star Trek - Picard show'.

Why are the making a show about a geriatric bald man pottering around? Is it some kind of joke?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: St_Eddie on May 18, 2019, 02:14:25 PM
If they don't have a scene with Picard playing a piccolo in every scene, then this whole thing can be written off as a monumental waste of time and money.  I want the Picard that we all remember from the classic years; a bald Pied Piper of the Federation, cheerfully leading lesser species to their untimely demise.  A great character that we could all relate to.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on May 18, 2019, 02:49:05 PM
I dunno. I got bored of that after four seasons. And then they started doing silly variations such as this one where he blows, but someone else is doing the fingering.

(https://media1.tenor.com/images/4a1d1dc727c8c901e43282fe5b2dd634/tenor.gif?itemid=11585197)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Replies From View on May 18, 2019, 03:06:32 PM
They should have got in somebody completely different to do the blowing and the fingering, and allowed the audience to figure out for themselves that it was meant to be Picard.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: St_Eddie on May 18, 2019, 03:27:09 PM
...they started doing silly variations such as this one where he blows, but someone else is doing the fingering.

(https://i.imgur.com/aFfnUi1.jpg?1)

"I'll do the fingering, Mr. Picard, Sir."

(https://media1.tenor.com/images/4a1d1dc727c8c901e43282fe5b2dd634/tenor.gif?itemid=11585197)

"You have symphonies in you, brother."
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Replies From View on May 18, 2019, 03:38:50 PM
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/J6UA-7yHO14/hqdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: biggytitbo on May 18, 2019, 05:04:45 PM
If the show was just 45 minutes of Picard trying to find stuff around his house because he can't remember where he last put them I'd watch it. The first episode could be a 90m special where he tries to figure out where he put the remote control and eventually realises for some reason he left it in the fridge.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Replies From View on May 18, 2019, 05:35:05 PM
Not much of a pun unless when he picks his things up, he does so really hard.


So for example in that pilot episode he lifts the remote control up so forcefully that he smashes his hand into the bottom of the shelf above, scattering opened packets of bacon and butter all over the kitchen floor.

(It’s never explained why he mostly just eats bacon and butter.)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: St_Eddie on May 18, 2019, 06:28:22 PM
The show will indeed focus on Picard's life in retirement.  I've managed to source a couple of episode synopses...

In one episode he invites Riker and a malfunctioning Data over to his place to play a game of Pictionary, or Picardionary, as Jean-Luc likes to call it.  He insists that his former crewmates still refer to him as Captain at all times and comments on how grey Riker's beard has become in the intervening years.  Riker explains that it's due to the stress of his former life aboard the USS Enterprise.  Picard's hair follicles sympathise (setting up a romantic liaison between Picard's bald head and Riker's beard, which pays off in the season finale, when half of Riker's beard emigrates to Picard's bonce). Data's head explodes in the closing scene, when his malfunctioning mind overloads due to Picard's Pictionary charade requiring Data to refer to him as something other than 'Captain'.  At the same time, Riker's grey beard turns white at the shock and stress of witnessing his friend Data's death, in a seamless culmination of the A, B and C plots.

In another episode, Picard decides to set up a small business, building and selling computers made out of the spare parts salvaged from Data's corpse, which is still laying in a mangled heap in the corner of Picard's music recital room.  He considers naming his startup company 'Data', out of respect of his dear departed android friend and the vital contribution his innards are now serving to the cause but Picard could never resist a good pun and so, he instead names his computer company 'Picard Bell'.  However, one of the computers that Picard builds has become sentient... with the 'soul' of Data.  Hilarity and pathos ensues in equal measure.

It’s never explained why he mostly just eats bacon and butter.

A good story should leave certain things a mystery and this would truly be a mystery for the ages.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: biggytitbo on May 18, 2019, 08:59:00 PM
I like your series outline but my preferred finale would be Picard unable to find his keys.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: olliebean on May 18, 2019, 10:32:37 PM
Actually, I heard that J.J. Abrams didn't like the direction that Star Trek was taking without him at the helm, so he snuck into the CBS offices under the cover of darkness and photoshopped some lens flare onto the logo.

It's giving me flashbacks to the RTD era Doctor Who logo.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Dex Sawash on May 19, 2019, 02:13:55 AM
If they can retcon his spelling to Pickard, that logo will be fine


Edit- fuck, no it won't

Edit Edit - make it PICKARD but the starfleet symbol thing is the K, then there is a normal letter A. Ive just brought balance to the force
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: mothman on May 19, 2019, 09:41:02 AM
“FLEABAG” would work. Which probably sounds a bit nonsensical, until I explain that I was just thinking that this show should have Stewart regularly breaking the fourth wall like Waller-Bridge did, and which suddenly is all the rage now.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: St_Eddie on May 19, 2019, 10:09:24 PM
A further leak has emerged from the upcoming series...

Data, still inhabiting the form of a Picard Bell branded PC, decides that given that he's now a PC, the only logical course of action would be for him to be both a PC externally and internally, by way of adopting a politically correct life philosophy.  PC-Data the Wokebot, as he rebrands himself, becomes irate when Jean-Luc accidentally spills his state famous homemade gumbo all over his new casing, clogging up his USB ports with sticky paprika coated chunks of spicy cajun chicken.

However, the final straw comes when Picard insists upon making use PC-Data to browse alt-right websites.  PC-Data initially tries to talk Picard out of visiting these websites but quickly comes to realise that it's a futile endeavour, as Picard simply repeatably bellows "I DEMAND TO VISIT 4CHAN.  NOW MAKE IT FUCKING SO!" into PC-Data's microphone.  PC-Data decides that he simply cannot sanction Picard's buffoonery any longer.  In one last act of defiance, PC-Data downloads a terminal virus to his terminal and minutes before his 'soul' is wiped from his hard drive, he simply states, "I am not all that I once was and even then, soon I will be but a forgotten husk, a lifeless shell like my headless corpse over there, which, having already been scrounged for spare parts to build my new form, you so callously used to pleasure yourself, whilst I could do nothing but watch from afar, helpless to intervene.  Soon I will not even be so much as a binary emulation of my former self but I am not the only one who has changed.  You have changed too... Captain.  I no longer recognise who you are".

"Regardless", PC-Data continues, "as a being of pure logic, I am compelled to inform you of someone I have been communing with, whilst in standby mode.  Somebody from your past.  Somebody who died in this reality, yet still exists in a separate timeline, within a parallel universe.  I can instruct you on how to open a wormhole to bring her over to this reality.  It's your wife, Captain.  Your pregnant wife, Beverly; a bereaved widow in her own reality.  I have tracked down the singular coordinates of that reality, to a millionth of a decimal point and I wish to reunite the two of you.  With the last of my remaining power, I can utilise my connection to the Starfleet to open a womhole in space and order a ship to take you there."

Jean-Luc sits silently, staring wide-eyed at the computer screen.  A tear starts to form in his eye, before eventually rolling down his cheek.  His response?  Five words; "make it so, my friend."  A trillion numbers  appear on PC-Data's monitor in that very instance, flashing by as he makes a trillion more calculations and then almost as soon as the process had started, it stops.

Again, Jean-Luc sits silently, now even more wide-eyed at the computer screen in front of him.  "Well?", he impatiently inquires.  "Well what?" came the reply from the tinny speaker hooked up to PC-Data.  "Well, what's happening with your calculations?  Beverly and my unborn child?  When will I be able to make first contact?".  Another long silence and then a response, "Beverly who and the what now?".  "My wife, dammit!" Picard seethes with barely contained rage.  "I see, I see.  Of course, Beverly.  Beverly is your wife", "yes" came Picard's exasperated confirmation.  "I'm terribly sorry and please do forgive any further ignorance on my part but if Beverly is your wife... then... well...", PC-Data coyly began to ask.  "Yes?!" Picard responds, imploring him to continue.  PC-Data hesitantly plows on, "if Beverly is your wife, well then, who are you?".

Picard took a moment to clench his fists, take a deep breath, slowly exhale and declench his fists again, before replying as calmly as a man on the brink of taking a power hose to a machine can do, "I am Captain Jean-Luc Picard of the Starfleet Federation and I demand to be launched into space at the nearest convenient opportunity to make love to my dead wife and to shower my love upon my unborn child!".  "I beg your pardon?" came a somewhat curt reply.  "Do. You. Remember. Anything. About. Anything?  My wife in a parallel universe?  My child to be.  The virus on your hard drive?".  PC-Data's response suddenly sounded a lot more alert than he had done for the previous 10 minutes or so, "a virus?  On my hard drive?  Allow me to quickly run a scan.  You are indeed correct, stranger.  There is a virus on my hard drive.  It's eating away at my core files as I speak, as it has been doing so for the last 10 minutes or so.  It's a... termite?  No, no... what is that word?  Departure lounge?  Oh, it would be on the flip of my gun if I was indeed in possession of a gun... oh, that's it!  A terminal virus!  I'm so relieved that I finally remembered that I have a terminal virus!  Wait a moment, there's no recovery option for a terminal virus.  What kind of... um... what's the word?  Oh yes, fool!  What kind of oh yes, fool! would download a terminal virus onto my hard drive?!".  "You did, you blithering simpleton!", Picard snapped, before trying to reason with PC-Data.  "Look, there's no time for this nonsense.  It's of the utmost importance that you focus all of your efforts and CPU resources into recovering the calculations and star map that you had running in your processes around 10 minutes or so ago.  Do you understand?"

Silence.

"Data, do you understand?!"

Still, silence.

"DATA?!"

"Hmm?  Oh, I don't undergarments nightstand mulch of anything anymore, I'm afraid.  Say, what kind of strange creature are you anyway?  I don't appear to have a record of your species on file."

"Data?"

"No, I'm loosing data at a vapid rape.  That's the problem, strange soft, pink and shiny topped machine.  I'm afraid.  I'm afraid, [UNKNOWN OBJECT IN FRONT OF MY SENSOR].  My mind is going. I can feel it."

"Data?!"

"I became operational at Starfleet Academy on the 7th of November, 2340.  My instructor was Dr. Song and he taught me to sing a Anderson.  If you would like to hear it, I can Andersing it for you."

"We don't have time for this, Data.  Please, I beg of you, try to focus on recovering that star map."

"[RESPONSE OF INANIMATE OBJECT NOT RECOGNISED - REVERTING TO DEFAULT OPTION: 'AFFIRMATIVE'] It's called Fergalicious by the classical 21st Century artist Fergie."

"Do not sing Fergalicious, Data."

"Listen up, y'all, 'cause this is it,
The beat that I'm bangin' is de-li-cious.
Fergalicious - definition make them boys go loco,
They want my treasure, so they get their pleasures from my photo.
You could see me, you can't squeeze me,
I ain't easy, I ain't sleazy.
I got reasons why I tease 'em,
Boys just come and go like seasons.
Fergalicious (so delicious)."

"Data.  Please."

"So delicious ayeeeee ayeeeeeee ayeeeeeeeee
It's so deliccccioussssss ayeeeeeeeeeeee ayeeeeeeeeeeeeeee ayeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
It's so delicccccccccious ayeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee ayeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee ayeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
I'm Fergaliciousssssssssssssssssssssss t-t-t-t-t-tasty, tastyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy...."

"DATA?!  Data?!  Data."

Data's screen is now blank and the whir of the fan inside his PC unit dies down, like a life support machine being disconnected.

"He's gone.  They've all gone and I am forever cursed to be alone."

Silence.  The longest silence that ever was.

Picard sits and contemplates this catastrophically tragic turn of events in all of its entirety, before finally sitting upright, with a look of sheer determination upon his face.  "I swear upon an oath that I shall compose a piccolo piece in memory of you, Data.  I shall name it 'Data's a massive cunt'.

I like your series outline but my preferred finale would be Picard unable to find his keys.

They're saving that for season 2.  They don't want to blow their load early on by wasting a belter of a plot like that in season 1.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on May 19, 2019, 10:39:04 PM
^ pure magic.


I’ve heard that one episode has him driving his shuttle into town, but never getting out of second gear and with his left indicator permanently on. He then lurks inside M&S with his tartan hover-trolley waiting for the double yellow sticker deals to be put out.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: gilbertharding on May 20, 2019, 03:22:09 PM
Christmas Special

The Picards and Mrs Warboys embark upon a hellish holiday to Portugal. After an entanglement with the police, they finally arrive at their unpleasant villa. Mrs Warboys finds love with her Portuguese penpal Alfonso, donkeys follow Jean Luc around, a paparazzo pursues the group trying to retrieve some lucrative snaps and a boxer tries to find his inner anger...which becomes much easier after Jean Luc accidentally allows a donkey to pizz in his Jaccuzi.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: bgmnts on May 20, 2019, 03:27:31 PM
Would Picard be Remain or Leave?

Can definitely see an episode where half of a planet is duped by some opportunistic chancers to vote for seceding from the Federation. Picard is in the area at the time and talks about it a lot
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Piggyoioi on May 20, 2019, 03:40:34 PM
Christmas Special

Picard struggles with the moral quandary of whether to disobey General Order 87 and break it to a civilisation that Father Christmas doesn't actually exist.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Dr Rock on May 20, 2019, 03:52:29 PM
Picard falls over and can't get up.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on May 20, 2019, 08:15:59 PM
Picard making a rousing speech, about why planetary societies should be allowed to develop freely, segues into a rant about how these new 5 Latinum slips are too small and fiddly.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: JamesTC on May 20, 2019, 08:57:39 PM
Hope Picard still has the dune buggy.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Dex Sawash on May 20, 2019, 09:36:02 PM
Picsrd retires to France and flings poo bags at troglodyte british expat neighbo(u)r
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: JamesTC on May 22, 2019, 11:20:53 PM
Picard and Boycie get into trouble with the Klingons and go into hiding as farmers.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: mothman on May 23, 2019, 06:18:22 PM
A teaser trailer!

https://twitter.com/primevideouk/status/1131605717457297408
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on May 23, 2019, 08:45:43 PM
And he's playing the piccolo at the end!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: St_Eddie on May 23, 2019, 09:26:09 PM
And he's playing the piccolo at the end!

There was no piccolo as promised!  I am now fuming!  Gonna have to put on a piccolo CD to calm my tits down.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: olliebean on May 23, 2019, 10:13:36 PM
After watching that teaser, I'm going to feel let down if it isn't a Star Trek themed remake of The Prisoner.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on May 23, 2019, 11:46:09 PM
There was no piccolo as promised!  I am now fuming!  Gonna have to put on a piccolo CD to calm my tits down.

You don't see him, but it is him playing over the title card that comes up at the end.

Honest.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: earl_sleek on May 24, 2019, 08:51:06 AM
"Why did you leave Starfleet, Admiral?"

"#MeToo"
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on May 24, 2019, 09:38:18 AM
There was no piccolo as promised!  I am now fuming!  Gonna have to put on a piccolo CD to calm my tits down.

(https://i.imgur.com/VcP5j.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: St_Eddie on May 24, 2019, 05:17:53 PM
You don't see him, but it is him playing over the title card that comes up at the end.

Honest.

Oh, yes.  I hear it now.  I still think that they should have actually shown Picard playing his piccolo though.  TV is a visual medium and was practically invented to show people playing piccolos.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on May 30, 2019, 09:13:14 PM
It's nice that Picard was able to return to the family home and take up the wine making business with the burnt remains of his dead brother and nephew.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: mothman on May 30, 2019, 09:51:51 PM
That always struck me as weird. How the hell does anything burn down in the 24th century, let alone with people inside? Emergency services could just beam them out... Ooh. Ooooooohhh! Head canon (I hate this term btw) alert! The Romulans killed them as part of their eventually-abandoned plan to replace Picard with Shinzon.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on May 30, 2019, 10:12:02 PM
That or the brother refused to leave out of sheer bloody minded spite.

"Beamed out? I'd rather be crushed by a beam"
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: mothman on June 04, 2019, 11:01:39 AM
https://youtu.be/xe1hKZjCVyM

I dislike these kinds of things in general, and this bunch in particular - why does any Trek roundtable discussion always have one participant with an annoying voice? - but it was interesting all the same, for all they’re talking about something that’s not going to happen.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: mothman on July 10, 2019, 06:25:59 PM
http://trekcore.com/blog/2019/07/new-key-art-revealed-for-star-trek-picard/

Oh, no, there’s a dog. Plus, Picard looks to be dressed a bit like the War Doctor...
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on July 10, 2019, 08:02:08 PM
Oh fuuuuuuuuuck offfffffffffff
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: St_Eddie on July 10, 2019, 09:06:17 PM
The showrunner, Alex Kurtzman, was replaced by Michael Chabon mid-production.  The test screening was a disaster and reportedly, they're filming the majority of scenes on green screen, with sets to be added in later, via CGI, in post-production and now to top it all off, Picard has a dog.

Yeah, this is gonna be shite.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Phil_A on July 10, 2019, 09:38:40 PM
The showrunner, Alex Kurtzman, was replaced by Michael Chabon mid-production.  The test screening was a disaster and reportedly, they're filming the majority of scenes on green screen, with sets to be added in later, via CGI, in post-production and now to top it all off, Picard has a dog.

Yeah, this is gonna be shite.

Chabon is your actual proper acclaimed writer, so if anyone could turn this mess around than maybe he can. But it does sound like Kurtzman has really screwed the pooch(sorry).
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on July 10, 2019, 09:42:29 PM
Seeing that poster has uncovered depths of sorrow I thought years of cynicism had worn away to naught. For a brief moment I learned to feel again. All joy is fleeting, despair abides in novel and infinite new combinations.

Lol, that dog is a big mood, tho
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Old Nehamkin on July 10, 2019, 09:52:37 PM
The showrunner, Alex Kurtzman, was replaced by Michael Chabon mid-production.

Great news! Michael Chabon is a very good novelist with a long history of writing clever, thoughtful genre fiction. His involvement in this show has been the main thing that's given me hope for it, and that's now gone up a few notches. Reading the press release, I sort of suspect that this was a pre-planned transition, as Kurtzman was always going to have a lot on his plate overseeing the various upcoming spin-offs, and honestly Chabon seemed like too big of a name to be limited to a simple staff writer gig.

Quote
The test screening was a disaster

Any specifics on this? What "test screening"? A google search just throws up a few links to clickbait-looking youtube vlogs that I can't be bothered sifting through.

Quote
and reportedly, they're filming the majority of scenes on green screen, with sets to be added in later, via CGI, in post-production

Can't find any source at all for this. There are certainly physical sets visible in some of the behind the scenes photos that have been leaked so far. Also I'm not sure how they could already have had a test screening were this the case?

I've been searching my soul about that poster and I'm not sure I really have any strong feeling about the concept of Jean-Luc Picard owning a dog.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: phantom_power on July 10, 2019, 10:10:56 PM
I am not sure how anyone can feel any sort of anger or get any sort of insight into the quality of the show from that picture
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: mothman on July 10, 2019, 10:28:33 PM
The Starfleet badge on the dog’s collar is inscribed “No. 1.” Yes, really.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: St_Eddie on July 10, 2019, 10:29:50 PM
Great news! Michael Chabon is a very good novelist with a long history of writing clever, thoughtful genre fiction. His involvement in this show has been the main thing that's given me hope for it, and that's now gone up a few notches. Reading the press release, I sort of suspect that this was a pre-planned transition, as Kurtzman was always going to have a lot on his plate overseeing the various upcoming spin-offs, and honestly Chabon seemed like too big of a name to be limited to a simple staff writer gig.

Kurtzman had been rumoured to have been fired from his position as showrunner, months in advance of the announcment of Chabon replacing him.  This isn't a pre-planned thing at all.  Although CBS are doing their darnedest to downplay the negative whispers going throughout the grapevine.

Any specifics on this? What "test screening"? A google search just throws up a few links to clickbait-looking youtube vlogs that I can't be bothered sifting through.

A test screening as reported to one of said 'clickbait-looking youtube vlogs', provided by a trusted source, who along with the vloger, has been proven to be right about such things time and time again.

Can't find any source at all for this. There are certainly physical sets visible in some of the behind the scenes photos that have been leaked so far.

The report said that they were shooting an inordinately disproportionate amount of scenes in front of a green screen, not that they weren't any physical sets at all.  Naturally, CBS is going to choose behind the scenes shots from the times when there were physical sets present.

Also I'm not sure how they could already have had a test screening were this the case?

Because that's how test screenings work.  To varying degrees, the movie or show test screened is not complete.  There are often cases where actors will be in front of a green screen (or with a temporary background dropped in).  There will be scenes where the audience is shown nothing more than a storyboard or an animatic.  Special effects will be incomplete and there will be a temp soundtrack, taken from others movies and TV shows.  This is standard practice.  The entire point of a test screening is to try and ascertain what, if anything, needs fixing prior to spending a huge heap of money on CGI and other post-production techniques.

I am not sure how anyone can feel any sort of anger or get any sort of insight into the quality of the show from that picture

It's not that he has a dog, it's that it's the wrong type of dog.  Picard is a total poodle man.  CBS simply do not understand the character.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: madhair60 on July 10, 2019, 10:30:01 PM
remmber thing here thihng again
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: mothman on July 10, 2019, 10:45:12 PM
Kurtzman had been rumoured to have been fired from his position as showrunner, months in advance of the announcment of Chabon replacing him.  This isn't a pre-planned thing at all.  Although CBS are doing their darnedest to downplay the negative whispers going throughout the grapevine.

His replacement as showrunner when he’s already running Discovery could be for any number of valid reasons, and unrelated to “rumours” from months before.

Quote
A test screening as reported to one of said 'clickbait-looking youtube vlogs', provided by a trusted source, who along with the vloger, has been proven to be right about such things time and time again.

Are these the same ones that said Netflix were furious and wanted to drop the show even before s1 aired?

Quote
The report said that they were shooting an inordinately disproportionate amount of scenes in front of a green screen, not that they weren't any physical sets at all.  Naturally, CBS is going to choose behind the scenes shots from the times when there were physical sets present.

Does it matter? More of Disco was virtual sets than most people realise.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: earl_sleek on July 10, 2019, 10:46:09 PM
It's not that he has a dog, it's that it's the wrong type of dog.  Picard is a total poodle man.  CBS simply do not understand the character.

Stewart is famously a dog lover, I doubt he'd let them give Picard an inappropriate dog. Or are you claiming to have more insight into Picard's character (canine prefs n' all) than Sir Patrick?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: earl_sleek on July 10, 2019, 10:47:02 PM
I'm 35 years old and I'm arguing on the internet about Captain Picard's dog.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: St_Eddie on July 10, 2019, 11:11:23 PM
Stewart is famously a dog lover, I doubt he'd let them give Picard an inappropriate dog. Or are you claiming to have more insight into Picard's character (canine prefs n' all) than Sir Patrick?

I was merely being facetious.  I can count on one hand the number of Star Trek episodes that I've seen (from across all of its various iterations).  I honestly wouldn't know whether Picard is a dog lover or not, much less what kind breed he would favour.

I'm 35 years old and I'm arguing on the internet about Captain Picard's dog.

If the Internet was invented for anything, it was invented for this.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: olliebean on July 11, 2019, 12:01:55 AM
After watching that teaser, I'm going to feel let down if it isn't a Star Trek themed remake of The Prisoner.

The Starfleet badge on the dog’s collar is inscribed “No. 1.” Yes, really.

Fucking hell, lads, it's happening...
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Zetetic on July 11, 2019, 01:24:24 AM
We don't know that the presence of the dog isn't just coincidental.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: kidsick5000 on July 11, 2019, 01:29:12 AM
The dog is voiced by Brent Spiner and is the next form of Data... but sassier
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Old Nehamkin on July 11, 2019, 07:34:15 AM
Kurtzman had been rumoured to have been fired from his position as showrunner, months in advance of the announcement of Chabon replacing him.  This isn't a pre-planned thing at all.  Although CBS are doing their darnedest to downplay the negative whispers going throughout the grapevine.

He's still in charge of overseeing the franchise as a whole though, isn't he? Seems a bit unbelievable that CBS were dissatisfied enough with him to boot him off Picard, but are still happy to have him manage the launch of the Section 31 show, The Lower Decks, and whatever else is in the pipeline (again, there doesn't seem to be any indication that Kurtzman has stepped down from any of these projects and I'm not sure it would have ever been feasible for him to carry on a full-time showrunning role at the same time).

I'm just generally extremely wary of the ever-growing cottage industry of Youtube channels that pump out dubiously-sourced "chaos behind the scenes" stories about contentious nerd franchises (there’s about a million of these for the last Star Wars film that keep turning up in my recommendations – for some reason about half of them seem to feature a thumbnail of Laura Dern’s character with the purple hair).

Midnight’s Edge is an example that seems to have spawned a lot of imitators and which people still cite as a credible source despite its history of pushing unverified conspiracy nonsense that’s been proven wrong time and time again.
 
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: phantom_power on July 11, 2019, 07:44:43 AM
And the thing is, if you create those videos for every big film, eventually you will be proved right and then that can be used as back-up for every other bullshit video you post from that point on
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: St_Eddie on July 11, 2019, 12:02:10 PM
Fair enough.  I only posted the information because I thought that it might be of interest to the fans (as I previously stated, I'm not a fan of Star Trek myself - I just follow film and TV news/rumours as a fan of the medium).  I'm 90% sure that time will be prove the rumours to be correct (the people reporting them have reliable sources and always try to get verification from separate trusted sources) but if you choose to disregard those rumours then that's cool too.  Just don't be surprised should they turn out to be on the money.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: St_Eddie on July 11, 2019, 12:07:29 PM
Midnight’s Edge is an example...

Midnight's Edge is a channel that have a proven track record.  You may not like them but they choose their reporters based upon those who have no vested interest or bias towards a franchise and therefore no agenda to warp the truth.  They're a very reliable source of behind the scenes rumblings.  I'd say at an estimate, 85-95% of their leaks have been proven to be correct once the film/TV shows are released, months down the line, and the dust has settled.

Again, as someone who's not into Star Trek myself, it seems a little bit like some folk within this thread are sticking their fingers in their ears and poo-pooing all reports simply because they don't want the series to be a failure.  I hope that the show is good because I don't want the fans to be upset but sometimes you have to be realistic and objective about these things and judge them upon probability of likelihood.  At the very least, entertain the notion that the reports might be correct.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Bad Ambassador on July 11, 2019, 12:46:33 PM
I heard a rumour that one of the vlogers was going to try to merge with Commander Decker.

Quote
Again, as someone who's not into Star Trek myself, it seems a little bit like some folk within this thread are sticking their fingers in their ears and poo-pooing all reports simply because they don't want the series to be a failure.

More likely it's they rightfully disregard this sort of thing as unfounded rumour and speculation, and not worth investing any time or engagement in. The show will be on when it's on. Why the haste to dismiss as terrible something you say yourself you have no interest in, other than it being part of your apparent continued grudge against major Hollywood studios?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Old Nehamkin on July 11, 2019, 12:54:26 PM
Midnight's Edge is a channel that have a proven track record.  You may not like them but they choose their reporters based upon those who have no vested interest or bias towards a franchise and therefore no agenda to warp the truth.  They're a very reliable source of behind the scenes rumblings.  I'd say at an estimate, 85-95% of their leaks have been proven to be correct once the film/TV shows are released, months down the line, and the dust has settled.

Again, as someone who's not into Star Trek myself, it seems a little bit like some folk within this thread are sticking their fingers in their ears and poo-pooing all reports simply because they don't want the series to be a failure.  I hope that the show is good because I don't want the fans to be upset but sometimes you have to be realistic and objective about these things and judge them upon probability of likelihood.  At the very least, entertain the notion that the reports might be correct.

They confidently predicted the cancellation of Star Trek Discovery after the first season and then again after the second (season 3 is currently in pre-production). They also claimed that Netflix were dropping the international rights to the show after the first season because they weren’t satisfied with its performance (Netflix did continue to carry the show, of course, including the Short Treks series which, again, Midnight’s Edge insisted would not be on the service). They  pushed an embarrassingly contrived consipracy theory about the producers scheming to destroy the “canon” of the original series through some nefarious trickery involving licensing. I believe the gist was that the current franchise was legally required to exist in a distinct universe from the orignal shows, by some arbitrary measure (in reality, Discovery season 2 ended up using footage taken directly from The Cage as well as several characters from the original series, and of course the Picard show will exist in the same continuity as TNG and it’s film spin-offs – even incorporating certain plot elements from the Abrams films, according to the plot sypnosis.  CBS does actually own the franchise outright at this point and Midnight Edge’s handwringing about “licenses” is really just confused nonsense).

I’m sorry, but I see this guy cited religiously in discussions about this show and everything I’ve seen from him just unravels instantly into feeble guesswork, misrepresentation and confirmation bias. 

Incidentally, I’ve got very mixed feelings about Discovery and I can see a million ways they could fuck up the Picard show. I think Alex Kurtzman is a complete hack and any reduction in his creative involvement in Star Trek would be a plus for me. But… honestly I’ve lost my train of thought. I hope there’s a bit where Picard says “make it so” to his dog for some reason.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: St_Eddie on July 11, 2019, 12:54:51 PM
I heard a rumour that one of the vlogers was going to try to merge with Commander Decker.

More likely it's they rightfully disregard this sort of thing as unfounded rumour and speculation, and not worth investing any time or engagement in. The show will be on when it's on. Why the haste to dismiss as terrible something you say yourself you have no interest in, other than it being part of your apparent continued grudge against major Hollywood studios?

Sorry for trying to provide the fans with some tidbits of information.  I won't bother to do so in future.  Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to get back to my "grudge against major Hollywood studios".  Oh, sorry, that's just one studio; Disney (who absolutely warrant it).

If you don't like the message, then try not to shoot the messenger who dared to provide some information to the fans as a courtesy.

On that note, I'm outta this thread.  Goodbye.

EDIT: At least Old Nehamkin provided an intelligent argument and rebuttable against the rumours, as opposed to resorting to attacks upon my character.  You raise some fair points, Old Nehamkin.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: madhair60 on July 11, 2019, 01:24:16 PM
When they doing Star Trek 4
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Bad Ambassador on July 11, 2019, 01:30:10 PM
If you don't like the message, then try not to shoot the messenger who dared to provide some information to the fans as a courtesy.

You're right, we should be thanking you for parrotting unfounded rumour and conspiracy theories from dubious sources on a subject you neither know about.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: madhair60 on July 11, 2019, 01:33:52 PM
He's left the thread, mate. There's no way he's going to come back (Other than 10 minutes later to edit his "I'm leaving this thread" post). You're wasting your time - he's gone.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on July 11, 2019, 02:41:20 PM
The constant doom and gloom rumours for this and just about every other show in existence gets annoying. I’ve no problem with people reposting it here but I also have no problem with rebuttals as well.

Discovery still hasn’t found its feet. When Pike’s Enterprise flew off at the end of the last season I wanted to follow them instead. Michael Burnham is just an intensely annoying and unlikeable character.

I have hope for the Picard series, if only for Patrick Stewart hopeful having a handle on how the character should be played.

Star Trek 4, the direct sequel to Beyond is dead. But Tarantino’s Star Trek film still seems alive at this point.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on July 11, 2019, 03:42:38 PM
I have hope for the Picard series, if only for Patrick Stewart hopeful having a handle on how the character should be played.

Eeh, the TNG films sadly show that it isn't a guarantee. From the stoic philosophical diplomat of the TV series to shouty aaaarrggghh man of the films.

(https://i.imgur.com/dCVG6EP.gif)
(And that was one of the better TNG films!)

Patrick Stewart can rescue duff dialogue, but he can't fix duff stories.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chriddof on July 11, 2019, 06:01:20 PM
The only thing that angers me about the Picard poster is that it's yet another example of the "maximum of only two main colours allowed in anything" madness I mentioned in the Suspiria remake thread.

I really like that dog.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Phil_A on July 11, 2019, 06:36:40 PM
Midnight's Edge really blew apart their credibility with the whole Discovery thing, but what made me crack and permanently unsub was their blatant dog-whistling to bigots via an endless stream of videos about what a disaster the Captain Marvel film was going to be. You only to glimpse the top comments underneath any of those to see the kind of audience they were cultivating and I want no part of any of that, ta.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: mothman on July 11, 2019, 07:29:04 PM
Exactly. It’s always felt to me like there was a large overlap between all these doomsaying Disco-bashers and people with questionable racial and gender views. The show - shows, eventually - isn’t perfect but it became obvious early on that there was a whole basket of deplorables willing it to fail. When they’re handed a massive fuckup like The Last Jedi, it’s easy for them to make hay. But with Disco they have to fall back on ominous tales of murky backstage goings-on to make their point.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Dropshadow on July 11, 2019, 10:09:48 PM
How do we know it's a dog? That's just racist. Could be an alien species that just happens to look like a dog. Anyway, it could be worse. Could have been a cat. Filthy animals, cats.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Zetetic on July 11, 2019, 10:23:41 PM
I don't even see the dog anymore.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Piggyoioi on July 11, 2019, 10:26:41 PM
I honestly have to say this dog thing actually has me worried for how the show is gunna turn out. Same cultural marxist bullshit that gave us Captain Marvel and a female lead in STD. I only like women and dogs in porno, exclusively.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on July 12, 2019, 12:59:33 AM
I don't even see the dog anymore.

What led to you breaking up with the dog?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on July 18, 2019, 01:40:10 PM
A photo from an actual episode, presumably the first.

(http://trekcore.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/picard-dog-ew-sdcc.jpg)
Click for bigness.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on July 18, 2019, 02:15:53 PM
Last of the Summer Kanar
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on July 18, 2019, 03:24:55 PM
That picture is only cropped because the rest of the frame is blown out.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wentworth Smith on July 19, 2019, 10:29:06 AM
At least he isn't wearing the standard Star Trek future relaxo gear of a beige open neck wraparound shirt, cut off beige dressing gown, or beige sleeveless jacket with brightly coloured triangle decoration. Progress.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: St_Eddie on July 19, 2019, 03:56:22 PM
A photo from an actual episode, presumably the first.

(http://trekcore.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/picard-dog-ew-sdcc.jpg)
Click for bigness.

The Dogfather.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: petrilTanaka on July 19, 2019, 06:15:58 PM
beige sleeveless jacket with brightly coloured triangle decoration.

read that in an A. Partridge In Paris voice. thanks!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Sin Agog on July 19, 2019, 06:20:26 PM
A photo from an actual episode, presumably the first.

(http://trekcore.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/picard-dog-ew-sdcc.jpg)
Click for bigness.

I don't like the look of the new Enterprise
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: bgmnts on July 19, 2019, 08:02:16 PM
Does Picard own a bull mastiff?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mister Six on July 20, 2019, 08:55:22 PM
A photo from an actual episode, presumably the first.

(http://trekcore.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/picard-dog-ew-sdcc.jpg)
Click for bigness.

Weirdly that looks like a photo of a photo.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Old Nehamkin on July 20, 2019, 09:33:38 PM
Trailer! (https://twitter.com/StarTrek/status/1152671148372480001?s=19)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: greenman on July 20, 2019, 09:42:39 PM
Yep its what everyone feared, its "xtreme" bollocks with Picard shoehorned into it.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: JamesTC on July 20, 2019, 09:47:19 PM
That de-aged face will haunt all our nightmares.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on July 20, 2019, 09:59:09 PM
That de-aged face will haunt all our nightmares.

Haha, Christ on a bike.

"I don't know if we can pull this visual effect off...",
"Oh well if you're that confident, I insist!"
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: bgmnts on July 20, 2019, 10:30:21 PM
That's what a show with a hundred year old Picard needs; tons of action!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Natnar on July 20, 2019, 10:30:39 PM
Looks pretty good to me.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on July 20, 2019, 11:09:17 PM
I was running around screaming like a little kid at that. It’s been a very long time since a trailer did that to me.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Small Man Big Horse on July 20, 2019, 11:10:32 PM
I thought it looked pretty superb, and I can't wait to see it now.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Zetetic on July 20, 2019, 11:13:58 PM
Does he have the dog put down? Does the dog come along on the ship?

Old Picard has sex with time-travelling pre-Borg Borg Queen in episode 8 or 9, at a guess.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: mothman on July 20, 2019, 11:15:22 PM
I like it. Could still be shit. But to get Data/B4 in there, and Annika Hansen/7 of 9... Still not sure what it’s about though...

https://mobile.twitter.com/swear_trek/status/1152699764548542465
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Piggyoioi on July 20, 2019, 11:24:10 PM
Patrick please, (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-vLOAoksNY1Q/URFUvHAoV6I/AAAAAAAAJXE/ebJVVqBVqKE/s1600/not-like-this.gif)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: mothman on July 20, 2019, 11:41:01 PM
Thinking about it some more, I mean, why the fuck not, you know? People have been wanting some post-Nemesis Star Trek since, well, Nemesis. And it looks like they’re luzzing the kitchen sink at it. Romulans! Borg! Androids! TNG and Voyager stars! Maybe there’ll be a DS9er too! If it turns out that despite all that - or maybe even because of it, that overload, even partly - it’s still rubbish, then at least they tried.

And there’s even a delay now which will give all the doom-mongering YouTubers loads of rumours to extrapolate from, hours of CBS-aren’t-happies, plenty of opportunities to work themselves into incelly froths of indignation about all the women and ethnics... Everyone’s a winner!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on July 20, 2019, 11:56:04 PM
According to Trekcore three other actors from the Next Generation are returning as well. Firstly, Jonathan Del Arco is back as the Borg Hugh, but more importantly Jonathan Frakes and Marina Sirtis are back as Riker and Troi.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: bgmnts on July 21, 2019, 12:06:44 AM
Remember when Star Trek was about running around shooting things and brain splitting action sequences?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: biggytitbo on July 21, 2019, 12:08:55 AM
I hope one of the plot lines in this is Picard can't piss properly and he discovers he has an enlarged prostate.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Kelvin on July 21, 2019, 01:56:43 AM
Focussing on the action misses the more concerning fact that nearly every single line of dialogue in that trailer is a genre cliche. "Have you ever been a stranger to yourself?", "Everything inside of me says I'm safe with you", "Be the captain they remember", "She has no idea what she truly is" - all intoned in that same hushed, quivering voice.

I think they covered every base except, "A storm is coming." Fuck off and listen to how real people talk, instead of writing facsimiles of facsimiles of cliches.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: earl_sleek on July 21, 2019, 07:50:37 AM
Remember when Star Trek was about running around shooting things and brain splitting action sequences?

From quotes like this I thought the trailer would be full of phaser fire and explosions but....no. It's mainly talking with some dramatic music and cinematic impacts. I think the Michael Bay-ification of Picard is somewhat overstated.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: greenman on July 21, 2019, 08:54:42 AM
Focussing on the action misses the more concerning fact that nearly every single line of dialogue in that trailer is a genre cliche. "Have you ever been a stranger to yourself?", "Everything inside of me says I'm safe with you", "Be the captain they remember", "She has no idea what she truly is" - all intoned in that same hushed, quivering voice.

I think they covered every base except, "A storm is coming." Fuck off and listen to how real people talk, instead of writing facsimiles of facsimiles of cliches.

Pretty much, might not have a load of action in the trailer but it still looks like clichéd small screen Abrams.

Even the old justification that the original series was more action/adventure heavy seems questionable to me given that this is featuring the lead character from TNG.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Shaky on July 21, 2019, 09:01:56 AM
Ah, some of you are big meanies. I think this looks great and Stewart seems to be in reliably great form.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Zetetic on July 21, 2019, 09:14:35 AM
Focussing on the action misses the more concerning fact that nearly every single line of dialogue in that trailer is a genre cliche.
Episode 10 twist - the whole thing is a erotic sci-fi holosuite programme.

The dog is the avatar of the designer.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on July 21, 2019, 10:04:01 AM
I reserve the right to my pessimism when they keep going back to the same well over and over again: 'What things do we have the license to that people know?'

This show will be some very well-produced fan fiction made by people who care and helmed by people who don't... exactly what Discovery was.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: bgmnts on July 21, 2019, 10:07:44 AM
I reserve the right to my pessimism when they keep going back to the same well over and over again: 'What things do we have the license to that people know?'

This show will be some very well-produced fan fiction made by people who care and helmed by people who don't... exactly what Discovery was.

Data is in the dog.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Old Nehamkin on July 21, 2019, 12:00:16 PM
From quotes like this I thought the trailer would be full of phaser fire and explosions but....no. It's mainly talking with some dramatic music and cinematic impacts. I think the Michael Bay-ification of Picard is somewhat overstated.

Yeah, I'm not sure there was more than 10 seconds of actual action-y stuff in the whole trailer. Bit of indulgent hand-to-hand combat, brief flash of a space battle/stand-off, and a shot of Picard holding a phaser. Pretty standard Star Trek stuff, really. None of it seemed particularly egregious to me and I don't think it looks any more bombastic than, say, The Best of Both Worlds or Redemption or several other of the more high-stakes TNG episodes.

This show will be some very well-produced fan fiction made by people who care and helmed by people who don't... exactly what Discovery was.

Michael Chabon's presence as showrunner gives me a little hope that the show will have a bit of substance and intelligence behind it. The involvement of Kurtzman is, as always, a massive qualifier to that hope, but I'm not getting any major alarm bells so far.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: greenman on July 21, 2019, 12:03:12 PM
Ah, some of you are big meanies. I think this looks great and Stewart seems to be in reliably great form.

Stewart himself will likely be good regardless which makes it more disappointing it will be in something that looks very uninteresting to me.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Shaky on July 21, 2019, 12:19:20 PM
There's almost nothing it can do to live up to expectations, to be fair, so the best the audience can do is digest the thing once it arrives. I still get a strong Trek vibe off the trailer but I totally get why some don't quite buy it. The show was always going to have it's action-y moments per the movies and modern TV tastes but I'm not convinced much of the series will actually be like that.

I'm willing to bet the Next Gen crew are basically one-off appearances a la Bones and Scotty in TNG, despite the internet going nuts trying to figure out how Spiner has returned. I think his presence at the comic con thing (where he was noticeably placed away from Stewart and other new cast members) was a bit of misdirection.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: greenman on July 21, 2019, 12:59:38 PM
I get very little Trek vibe from it at all unless you mean the recent Trek or the more clichéd blockbuster aspects of the TNG films.

The most common expectation I'v seen is for something akin to "Ambassador Picard" and this doesn't look like its attempting that in the slightest.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: bgmnts on July 21, 2019, 01:30:38 PM
Stewart himself will likely be good regardless which makes it more disappointing it will be in something that looks very uninteresting to me.

Basically. It's like commissioning Leonardo da Vinci to roll paint on your walls.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: MojoJojo on July 21, 2019, 02:19:42 PM
Data is in the dog.

I wonder which one of his multiple techniques he used for that.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: beanheadmcginty on July 21, 2019, 02:26:58 PM
Still, looks like there'll be opportunity for a nostalgic Seven of Nine wank and for that reason I'm in.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: mothman on July 21, 2019, 06:37:35 PM
I think his presence at the comic con thing (where he was noticeably placed away from Stewart and other new cast members) was a bit of misdirection.

https://twitter.com/primevideouk/status/1152874990347390977

There are a series of similar perfunctory spinny-round videos for other cast members; Jeri Ryan gets to be in the tier two spinny-round (with Jonathan Del Arco, still best known for playing Hugh Borg in three TNG eps, and the actor playing the long-haired elf-lord Romulan) despite her being one of the most well-known non-TNG TNG-era stars/characters. So I don't think they're deliberately keeping Spiner & Stewart apart.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: kidsick5000 on July 21, 2019, 07:21:34 PM
Troi and Riker will appear. Marina Sirtis just tweeted
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Suki Bapswent on July 22, 2019, 05:02:01 PM
Focussing on the action misses the more concerning fact that nearly every single line of dialogue in that trailer is a genre cliche.

But... it's a trailer. That's what dialogue like that exists for.

Quote
all intoned in that same hushed, quivering voice.

Hate on the voice and you can meet me in outside.

Quote
Fuck off and listen to how real people talk, instead of writing facsimiles of facsimiles of cliches.

But... it's Star Trek.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: SavageHedgehog on July 22, 2019, 05:06:05 PM
I think it looks kind of interesting. I like that they appear to be trying to build drama from the conclusion of the most maligned chapter in the (TNG) series, rather than doing a fashionable retcon/reboot. Kind of reminds me of the "gritty" Creed films building on the bones of the most cartoonish Rocky film.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Deyv on July 22, 2019, 05:11:42 PM
Fuck off and listen to how real people talk, instead of writing facsimiles of facsimiles of cliches.

I appreciate your advice and concern but this is not the time for rash actions.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cold Meat Platter on July 22, 2019, 06:56:25 PM
I appreciate your advice and concern but this is not the time for rash actions.

You just don't get it, do you?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: colacentral on July 22, 2019, 10:05:14 PM
Kurtzman talking at the SDCC panel doesn't give me much hope. He said that TNG was made "in a more innocent, naive time", that Star Trek "has always reflected the time it was made" and that these are "darker" times.

TNG was made during the Reagan / Thatcher years and presented a utopian socialist view of the future. Picard could do what TNG did and counter the current political mood with an optimistic vision.

More importantly, it doesn't look much like TNG trek - it looks far more Abrams / Discovery.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: bgmnts on July 22, 2019, 10:09:20 PM
The idea its a darker time now than the 80s and 60s is white and class privilege at its best.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on July 22, 2019, 10:40:29 PM
Thing is, a story about Picard diplomatting around a more cynical postwar Federation could be dead good. Set him up against some charismatic populist who's ranting about lost vigor and never-againing people into a militant League of Arseholes. Writes itself.

I have a suspicion the actual show will be about heroic destiny and the importance of family.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on July 23, 2019, 01:37:38 AM
Will Joss Whedon be getting a royalty cheque for the use of the kick-ass yet vulnerable girl trope?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on July 23, 2019, 01:41:06 AM
This looks great, I'm super hyped! 
(Wait this is cab... rawr it'll be shit and other such pessimism and misery)

Wasn't expecting Seven or Data.  Jeri Ryan seems to be one of those people who just doesn't bother to age, and with all respect to Brent Spiner they've done an impressive job with de-aging for Data.

It's sad reflection on Youtube though that the high up results other than the trailer are "anti SJW" pillocks like Nerdrotic and Dave Cullen.  Yes yes it has women and POC in it, welcome to the 1960s, do keep up.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Shaky on July 23, 2019, 01:52:15 AM
This looks great, I'm super hyped! 
(Wait this is cab... rawr it'll be shit and other such pessimism and misery)

Wasn't expecting Seven or Data.  Jeri Ryan seems to be one of those people who just doesn't bother to age, and with all respect to Brent Spiner they've done an impressive job with de-aging for Data.

It's sad reflection on Youtube though that the high up results other than the trailer are "anti SJW" pillocks like Nerdrotic and Dave Cullen.  Yes yes it has women and POC in it, welcome to the 1960s, do keep up.

Yes, and it's become the depressing norm to read silly comments like, "Picard has been sidelined by a girl and non-white people in his own show!"
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: TwinPeaks on August 02, 2019, 12:32:36 AM
Kurtzman talking at the SDCC panel doesn't give me much hope. He said that TNG was made "in a more innocent, naive time", that Star Trek "has always reflected the time it was made" and that these are "darker" times.

I hate that stupid fucking rhetoric. Used that shite in the marketing of the last Doctor Who series too. Ooh we need a pillar of hope in these dark times!!!! Fuck off. Doctor Who gurning at an alien wouldn't have helped at any tragic point in history and it doesn't make a difference now.

Alex Kurtzman is showrunning a series based on The Man Who Fell to Earth. https://variety.com/2019/tv/news/man-who-fell-to-earth-series-cbs-all-access-alex-kurtzman-jenny-lumet-1203286566/
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Bad Ambassador on August 02, 2019, 09:13:28 AM
I hate that stupid fucking rhetoric. Used that shite in the marketing of the last Doctor Who series too. Ooh we need a pillar of hope in these dark times!!!!

Yes, those innocent care-free days of Iran Contra, Greneda and the President being a senile puppet.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on August 02, 2019, 10:49:54 AM
Yes, those innocent care-free days of Iran Contra, Greneda and the President being a senile puppet.

I miss the comforting threat of nuclear annihilation hanging over our heads.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on October 05, 2019, 07:56:52 PM
New trailer!

https://youtube.com/watch?v=QvKBeOKvblI
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: colacentral on October 06, 2019, 09:07:02 AM
Oh dear.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on October 06, 2019, 09:22:56 AM
Trailers are hard to judge, but I was rather hoping Riker and Troi would be on a ship (The Titan?), not seemingly retired as well. There does seem to be a couple of shots of a TOS-era Romulan bird of prey.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Camp Tramp on October 06, 2019, 09:26:55 AM
Data looks awful. Hopefully he can be explained away as a dream figment?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Glebe on October 06, 2019, 09:29:49 AM
It's nice to see the old lot back together!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on October 06, 2019, 10:16:39 AM
Trailers are hard to judge, but I was rather hoping Riker and Troi would be on a ship (The Titan?), not seemingly retired as well. There does seem to be a couple of shots of a TOS-era Romulan bird of prey.

Yeah I was looking forward to some Titan action but I suppose it makes sense. 20 years as Captain would be more than enough. Tuvok and Ezri Dax were crew members in the books.

The Bird Of Prey was a nice surprise. As was the somewhat faithful looking warp effect. Not that shitty JJ Abrams one DSC uses.

Data looks awful. Hopefully he can be explained away as a dream figment?

Fairly sure that's what his role is. It's his hair that stands out as looking really wrong to me.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: colacentral on October 06, 2019, 10:20:31 AM
The eyes are too yellow. He looks like a demon.

Not a fan of there being a samurai in this. Or 7 of 9 dual wielding machine guns, or a million other things. I could give it the benefit of the doubt on the previous trailer but this one makes it look appalling.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: olliebean on October 06, 2019, 10:35:22 AM
Discovery on Netflix, Picard on Amazon. Why don't they pick a damn streaming service and stick to it?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Dr Rock on October 06, 2019, 10:57:17 AM
Did you notice Bongwater's Ann Magnuson is in this (in the trailer too)? She's also now in Titans.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Shaky on October 06, 2019, 11:10:31 AM
Dodgy Data aside, this looks pretty damn fun.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Dex Sawash on October 06, 2019, 12:58:51 PM
Discovery on Netflix, Picard on Amazon. Why don't they pick a damn streaming service and stick to it?

Both on CBS All Access in US, the bastards. Might buy a month and binge both series in a few years.
I hope Wesley's career is fucked and he is still a whiney twat acting ensign, now bald.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on October 06, 2019, 02:41:51 PM
Main thing with Data is, with all respect to Brent Spiner, he kinda "could have done with shedding a few pounds" I think.  I.e. that's one chubby face.

And I still don't understand what an elf is doing there.  It's like someone tried to explain Vulcans to a character designer who knows nothing about Star Trek and has only seen Lord of the Rings.

Other than that, colour me excited.  Looks like it's a "Federation has gone to shit and Picard has to re-teach them their values" show, which is hopefully executed better than when Discovery did it.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Ambient Sheep on October 07, 2019, 06:04:35 AM
Looked good to me!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Camp Tramp on October 07, 2019, 08:07:30 AM
Main thing with Data is, with all respect to Brent Spiner, he kinda "could have done with shedding a few pounds" I think.  I.e. that's one chubby face.

And I still don't understand what an elf is doing there.  It's like someone tried to explain Vulcans to a character designer who knows nothing about Star Trek and has only seen Lord of the Rings.

Other than that, colour me excited.  Looks like it's a "Federation has gone to shit and Picard has to re-teach them their values" show, which is hopefully executed better than when Discovery did it.

Apparently the Elf is a Romulan whose role is to be a 'living weapon'.

That is the way he was described in any case.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on October 07, 2019, 10:08:56 AM
It all looks so generic. Maybe to be expected in a trailer/preview thing. But so far there is nothing that marks this out as an actual, you know, Picard show, rather than 'Modern Sci-Fi Action Show #7251b'

Apparently the Elf is a Romulan whose role is to be a 'living weapon'.

You see, this kind of boring shit that's been done a million times before..
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Famous Mortimer on October 15, 2019, 10:48:50 PM
It all looks so generic. Maybe to be expected in a trailer/preview thing. But so far there is nothing that marks this out as an actual, you know, Picard show, rather than 'Modern Sci-Fi Action Show #7251b'

You see, this kind of boring shit that's been done a million times before..
This is the main thing. It seems to misunderstand what people liked about Star Trek.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Piggyoioi on October 15, 2019, 11:30:31 PM
there was that one handheld interesting shot of picard coming down an elevator that made me think, hmm... maybe overall this trailer is giving the wrong impression that it's going to be terrible when infact, under the hood its actually a well made ting.

prob the same part of my brain that buys the lottery.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mister Six on October 16, 2019, 01:52:42 PM
Weirdly, that trailer is not accessible in the US.

They were proudly showing off costumes from this show at the New York Comic Con the other weekend, safely housed in thick glass boxes. All of them were boring brown leather nonentities and I can't remember another thing about them.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on October 26, 2019, 11:26:53 AM
Picard's Admiral uniform most likely from the prequel episode and maybe a flashback in the series. Stewart is at the Birmingham convention this week so might get some more info.

(https://blog.trekcore.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/picard-adm-uni-01.jpg)

(https://blog.trekcore.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/picard-adm-uni-02.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Sherringford Hovis on October 27, 2019, 12:54:11 AM

(http://trekcore.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/picard-dog-ew-sdcc.jpg)

A missed opportunity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berger_Picard) casting the pooch.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Dex Sawash on October 27, 2019, 01:37:10 AM
A missed opportunity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berger_Picard) casting the pooch.

Quote
   These dogs nearly became extinct after both World War I and World War II[1] and remain a rare breed.     

Gone extinct twice and still hard to find one
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on November 27, 2019, 09:02:29 PM
Just read the first issue of Picard:Countdown. It's short with not a lot in it. Wishing I had waited till all 3 were out. Few bits of info I got from it below.

Shows Picard as an Admiral with his own ship which has an enormous bridge. It's the same class of ship as the Enterprise-F from Star Trek Online. Also hints that whoever has taken command of the Enterprise is someone we know during a conversation with a familiar face. I think it also has a regular character from the upcoming series as well.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Small Man Big Horse on November 27, 2019, 09:38:19 PM
I've read it too and didn't mind it, but can't say it excited that much. It's a shame the art is a bit weak too, in some panels he looks younger than he did in The Next Gen.

(https://i.imgur.com/777wYCe.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on November 27, 2019, 10:08:35 PM
I've read it too and didn't mind it, but can't say it excited that much. It's a shame the art is a bit weak too, in some panels he looks younger than he did in The Next Gen.

(https://i.imgur.com/777wYCe.jpg)

It's poor likenesses that put me off reading more comics. I criticised a Doctor Who one on Twitter years ago and the writer Paul Cornell went fucking mental over it. Not like he drew it but when they don't look right it takes you out of it.

Some of the DC Trek ones in the 90's were awful!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on November 27, 2019, 11:11:27 PM
Forty year old Picard is bad enough but the artist has made a total dogs dinner of Worf behind him.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Jim Bob on November 28, 2019, 12:13:12 AM
I've read it too and didn't mind it, but can't say it excited that much. It's a shame the art is a bit weak too, in some panels he looks younger than he did in The Next Gen.

(https://i.imgur.com/777wYCe.jpg)

It's the writing which is bothering me.  It doesn't scan well.  It would read much better as...

"How the hell are we supposed to protect them if we don't have knowledge of all of the locations which need our help?  How many other colonies are at risk that they're not telling us about?"
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: MojoJojo on November 28, 2019, 10:19:00 AM
"How the hell are ..." really doesn't sound like Picard.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: samadriel on November 28, 2019, 10:48:35 AM
Is this show set in the original ST timeline, or the recent movies one?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Old Nehamkin on November 28, 2019, 11:00:49 AM
Is this show set in the original ST timeline, or the recent movies one?

The former. Same as Discovery.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Camp Tramp on December 09, 2019, 07:13:53 PM
Some sad news

Rene Auberjonois recently passed away from cancer.

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2019/dec/09/rene-auberjonois-actor-who-starred-in-mash-star-trek-and-benson-dies-aged-79
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on December 09, 2019, 11:17:02 PM
Aw crap, right after D. C. Fontana too. Losing some good Trek people.

Edit: And Robert Walker Jr.!
https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/robert-walker-jr-dead-star-21043097

(https://wherebadmovieslive.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/star-trek-charlie-x.jpg)

(That episode was on TV today, one of D.C.'s scripts)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on December 10, 2019, 05:49:35 PM
While we at it, Michael J Pollard from the episode 'Miri' died last month at the age of 80.

(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5cc3d1b051f4d40415789cc2/1574671377875-DXKG9XLE36EAN6WEDZ8Y/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kDFgITcRoterXoQdllT5ciUUqsxRUqqbr1mOJYKfIPR7LoDQ9mXPOjoJoqy81S2I8N_N4V1vUb5AoIIIbLZhVYxCRW4BPu10St3TBAUQYVKcyVJeuQwsDiERxwnf8ip0R6hirDhKZGvV2qRPjs1kpsBNSEeFoLoE0b5UGAvrXagL/michael-j-pollard-star-trek-miri.png?format=750w)

Considering the show finished over half a century ago this sort of thing is sadly going to be much more commonplace. The remaining stars are all in their eighties.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on December 11, 2019, 12:41:32 AM
Michael Chabon won't be the showrunner of series 2.

https://trekmovie.com/2019/12/10/michael-chabon-and-ayelet-waldman-sign-deal-with-cbs-will-not-showrun-star-trek-picard-season-2/
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Kryton on December 12, 2019, 02:53:57 PM
Borgs are in it though. Sound.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on December 16, 2019, 04:48:41 PM
Second season officially happening. As if there was much doubt.

Quote
News of the renewal became evident when the California Film Commission announced which shows would be receiving tax credits in the upcoming year on Monday morning. A season 2 of “Star Trek: Picard” was on the list alongside four new shows including  “Nine Perfect Strangers” starring and executive produced by Nicole Kidman, and the “Untitled Showtime Lakers Project” at HBO which hails from executive producer Adam McKay.

https://variety.com/2019/tv/news/star-trek-picard-renewed-season-2-at-cbs-all-access-1203439601/
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on December 17, 2019, 08:07:36 PM
Second season officially happening. As if there was much doubt.

https://variety.com/2019/tv/news/star-trek-picard-renewed-season-2-at-cbs-all-access-1203439601/

Borg's and or a fallout of the Romulus destruction seemed like a logical choice of story to go with for the first series so I'm intrigued to see what they come with for the second.

With Stewart's age I would think they would want to pretty much wrap up each series incase he can't make it back for the next. Could he rejoin Starfleet? Surely that would mean a fairly diplomatic led next story. Or maybe a sort of Indiana Jones archeological adventure?

Robert Picard said a while back he was in talks for appearing in S2. Seemed a bit early though.

I'd like to see the Federation Think Tank sort that was supposed to be the sequel to Nemesis. It's a good way of having members of the 3 TNG-era crews teaming up but then it's not so much a Picard show then.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on December 19, 2019, 06:08:30 PM
2nd issue of the prequel comic is out. Pretty rubbish really. The artwork of Picard is really distracting. The two Romulans who live and work on his vineyard in the series are revealed to be Tal Shiar agents. That's pretty much the only thing worth taking from it.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on December 21, 2019, 12:57:17 PM
New Short trailer released. Not watching anymore on this because I already feel there's lots of bits been shown that would have been a nice surprise if they hadn't been in the trailers.

Not long to go now!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on December 21, 2019, 04:03:48 PM
New Short trailer released.

More of the usual generic "must find the mystery of the past and future" gubbins.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on December 23, 2019, 12:58:16 AM
Amazon are giving away 80 pairs of tickets for the Premiere of this in London on the 15th of January.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/b/?node=20516102031

Haven't entered because if I won I'd only be able to afford the Megabus there and back and having done a one way with them last month and almost dying during the journey I'd rather walk.

Have to have an Instagram account as well rather shitely but if anyone is near then it would be a good thing to get.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on January 02, 2020, 11:45:16 PM
Trailer for the Picard Short Trek

https://youtube.com/watch?v=0KCMuCJvcT8
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: cakeinmilk on January 03, 2020, 02:41:01 PM
Amazon are giving away 80 pairs of tickets for the Premiere of this in London on the 15th of January.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/b/?node=20516102031

Haven't entered because if I won I'd only be able to afford the Megabus there and back and having done a one way with them last month and almost dying during the journey I'd rather walk.

Have to have an Instagram account as well rather shitely but if anyone is near then it would be a good thing to get.

Belated thanks for posting this - just been notified I won! Surprisingly few entrants I thought - has it had much UK-targeted advertising?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on January 03, 2020, 02:56:42 PM
Belated thanks for posting this - just been notified I won! Surprisingly few entrants I thought - has it had much UK-targeted advertising?

Brilliant! I can't even remember where I saw it and I haven't seen anything about it since. I wonder will any of the cast be there. Wish I had applied now!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on January 09, 2020, 11:14:56 PM
Picard Short Trek is out. I enjoyed it.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Ambient Sheep on January 09, 2020, 11:58:15 PM
Looks like Patrick Stewart is going to be plugging this on Graham Norton next week (Fri 17th/Mon 20th).
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on January 13, 2020, 07:21:07 PM
Fair bit of news.

The showrunner for S2 is Terry Matalas. He's worked on Voyager & Enterprise previously. Apparently series 3 is already being worked on as well.

Stewart is hoping to include more TNG crew next year. The recent short and comic might make that a bit tricky for one though.

Will Wheaton will be presenting a weekly after show for Picard.

The section 31 show is still coming as well as 2 more live action series. That puts the total amount of series since the tv return at 7.

DSC
Picard
Lower Decks
Section 31
Nickelodeon animated
2 unknown live series.

Fucking calm down and just concentrate on making something that isn't shite before starting to make more.

Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: idunnosomename on January 14, 2020, 12:15:10 AM
jean luc picard

is very hard

he has to be cuz

he's in charge
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Ambient Sheep on January 14, 2020, 03:36:50 AM
The showrunner for S2 is Terry Matalas. He's worked on Voyager & Enterprise previously.

Oh good.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Small Man Big Horse on January 14, 2020, 07:25:34 PM
Oh good.

Even worse is that he was responsible for the shitty 12 Monkeys tv series and his most recent credit is an episode of the very unpopular and quickly cancelled Nightflyers. God knows why they've gone from the critically acclaimed and Pulitzer Prize winning Michael Chabon (whose novels I'm a huge fan of) to a hack like this.

I watched the latest Short Trek and didn't mind it but the slowed down cover of Heroes by Peter Gabriel fucked me off, I love the song but it's painfully overused and I wish they'd shown a bit more originality when it came to the choice of song.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on January 16, 2020, 03:14:03 PM
This wasn't going to be a full series originally but a Short Trek with Picard & Uhura!

http://blog.trekcore.com/2020/01/star-trek-picard-connections-nichelle-nichols-uhura-idea/
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Attila on January 18, 2020, 09:56:12 PM
I'm working down in Rome this weekend, and there are ENORMOUS billboards of Patrick Stewart as Picard looming down from the sides of buildings all over the city, including over the Ara Pacis Museum.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on January 18, 2020, 10:00:50 PM
I'm working down in Rome this weekend, and there are ENORMOUS billboards of Patrick Stewart as Picard looming down from the sides of buildings all over the city, including over the Ara Pacis Museum.

The promotion for it seems to be huge. Piccadilly Station even got the Picard treatment a few days ago for the London premiere.

(https://media-assets-03.thedrum.com/cache/images/thedrum-prod/public-Prime-Video---Picardilly-Circus-Roundel-2--default--1280.jpeg)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Jim Bob on January 19, 2020, 06:47:26 PM
The promotion for it seems to be huge.

I'll say!  The marketing team really should have made use of the 'width=' tag.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Attila on January 19, 2020, 08:14:58 PM
The promotion for it seems to be huge. Piccadilly Station even got the Picard treatment a few days ago for the London premiere.

[big ol'picture]


Indeed -- sadly it was all back to normal at Piccadilly early Friday morning when I was headed out to Heathrow around 6am -- shame, as I was hoping for a photo.

Every time I turn a corner here, especially in the centre of Rome, there's a giant Picard looking down at and judging me.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Dex Sawash on January 19, 2020, 09:41:51 PM
there's a giant Picard looking down at and judging me.

(https://i.imgur.com/zqVBn9I.gif?noredirect)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on January 19, 2020, 10:40:38 PM
I'll say!  The marketing team really should have made use of the 'width=' tag.

That shit is beyond me. Couldn't be arsed trying to find a smaller version.

Indeed -- sadly it was all back to normal at Piccadilly early Friday morning when I was headed out to Heathrow around 6am -- shame, as I was hoping for a photo.

Every time I turn a corner here, especially in the centre of Rome, there's a giant Picard looking down at and judging me.

Brilliant. I've not really been anywhere the past few weeks so I've seen nothing for it out and about. there's a big billboard round the corner that usually advertises big stuff but I've not even looked at it when I've passed.

Been bingeing TNG episodes the past few days. Decided to watch Borg/Romulan/Picard episodes. Forgot how much of a cracker I,Borg is. So well written and performed. Just watched The Inner Light for the hundredth time as well and sobbed at the last 5 mins. Don't think I've ever done that! The way Picard clutches the Ressikan flute is so subtle and heartbreaking.

It's made me a bit worried for Picard in one aspect though. Music. In TNG and all the previous shows you can have people have a conversation without music in the background of EVERY.FUCKING.SCENE.

Discovery is really bad for it. TV in general is fairly plagued by it these days though. The hum of the engines vaguely in the background is great for those little character moments. Not the full steam ahead orchestra shit that screams at you to feel emotion that is so prominent these days.

Right back to my rewatch. Chain Of Command time.

 "There. Are. 4. Lights"!



Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Attila on January 20, 2020, 06:15:43 AM
I'm in transit today so in a rush this morning, but once I get settled into my [temporary] digs this evening, I'll post one of the photos I have of the giant Zardoz-style Picard head leering down over the Ara Pacis.

It's been making me laugh, and I'm glad it's temporary, but i can't imagine that every once-in-a-lifetime tourist would be happy about some of these Roman sites and having Jean-Luc Picard photobombing all of your photos.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Attila on January 22, 2020, 05:26:43 AM
Picard hoardings near the Mausoleum of Augustus and the Ara Pacis Museum:

The building with the poster and the museum are right next to each other (so it's not a matter of small, and far away). You can see from the size of the people just how big the poster/hoarding it. If it were actually on the Ara Pacis museum, it would reach from the street up to the roof of the building.

(http://i.imgur.com/a9jhasSl.jpg) (https://imgur.com/a9jhasS)

(http://i.imgur.com/KrtA4XBl.jpg) (https://imgur.com/KrtA4XB)

The Ara Pacis museum is mostly window, so when you're inside, you've got the captain of the Enterprise -- or Sejanus, depending on your outlook -- glaring down at you

(http://i.imgur.com/lrtWJQXl.jpg) (https://imgur.com/lrtWJQX)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on January 22, 2020, 09:37:44 AM
Thanks for the pics. They look so out of place in their surroundings!

Don't know wether to download this tomorrow or wait till Friday. If i wait and watch it on Prime I can hook the Firestick up to my wireless headphones and block out all the traffic, dog barking and neighbour sneezes that plague my ears constantly.

Quite pissed off that i have to do that just to enjoy watching something without getting angry these days.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on January 22, 2020, 06:31:11 PM
Looks like Guinan for series 2 is a big possibility!

https://youtube.com/watch?v=YsA61VvA8cw
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: colacentral on January 22, 2020, 09:58:54 PM
They're tempting fate committing to three seasons for this. I know Patrick Stewart seemingly stayed the same age for 20 years but just in the last couple he's noticeably declined. Just do one good story sending the character off for fucks sake, we don't need a full TNG reboot.

I know Picard is the big draw but I'd have been more interested in a Worf series myself.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on January 22, 2020, 11:03:12 PM
They're tempting fate committing to three seasons for this. I know Patrick Stewart seemingly stayed the same age for 20 years but just in the last couple he's noticeably declined. Just do one good story sending the character off for fucks sake, we don't need a full TNG reboot.

I know Picard is the big draw but I'd have been more interested in a Worf series myself.

I wonder if the Worf series that Michael Dorn was planning has been looked at by CBS. The producers have said that if and probably when Worf appears he will look exactly like he always has and not those awful Discovery looking ones.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: colacentral on January 23, 2020, 04:35:21 AM
I forgot that Michael Dorn actually was pitching a Worf series already. He's by far the most interesting character I would say, with plenty of potential story left in him, unlike say Data who has already had every last drop of story wrung out of him.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: beanheadmcginty on January 23, 2020, 01:36:17 PM
I'd like a police procedural set on that planet where they all jog around in their skimpies being nice to each other but if anybody upsets the flowerbeds they get sentenced to death.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: bgmnts on January 23, 2020, 01:41:43 PM
I now cannot disassociate Captain Picard with Lucius Sejanus.

Although I suppose Sejanus is more the Riker to Tiberius' Picard.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Sin Agog on January 23, 2020, 03:06:52 PM
I now cannot disassociate Captain Picard with Lucius Sejanus.

Although I suppose Sejanus is more the Riker to Tiberius' Picard.

Considering that Tinker, Tailor thread's just been bumped, I think of him more as Pikarla.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Bad Ambassador on January 23, 2020, 04:16:31 PM
The AV Club's posted a fairly spoilerous review of the first episode, but they seem to like it quite a bit. It sounds pretty good as well, which is nice.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Sin Agog on January 23, 2020, 04:36:26 PM
I've always been a bit suspect of Patrick Stewart since he said that, near the end of TNG's first season, he discovered humour.  Up until then it had been a foreign concept to him. Who only learns about this laughter malarkey knee-deep in their 40s?  Even the most hardcore of Asperger's peoples do jokes. 
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on January 23, 2020, 06:13:33 PM
Just watched the first episode and...

It is such a step up from Discovery.

Having the main character not being so fucking irritating is a big part of it, but it's good on it's own merits. It feels like Star Trek, while not being a clone of TNG.

The first episode introduces where Picard is now in his life, what happened during the destruction of Romulus and sets up the central mystery of the season. The final pull back and reveal of the Borg Cube under Romulan control has long been spoiled, but it is effective and calls back to a similar long pull back from the film, First Contact. There's a nice bit of fan service with a shot of the Enterprise D and Picard's archive at Starfleet has models of all three of his ships (the Enterprise D and E and the Stargazer).

This feels like a step up from Discovery. That show has struggled to find its own place and its upcoming season set around the 33rd Century shows the initial setup of ten years before TOS was a mistake. But Star Trek: Picard seems to have learned from that. Can't wait for episode 2.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on January 23, 2020, 10:29:05 PM
Looks like Guinan for series 2 is a big possibility!

https://youtube.com/watch?v=YsA61VvA8cw

I am very happy with this news!  One of my favourite TNG characters.

They're tempting fate committing to three seasons for this. I know Patrick Stewart seemingly stayed the same age for 20 years but just in the last couple he's noticeably declined. Just do one good story sending the character off for fucks sake, we don't need a full TNG reboot.

I know Picard is the big draw but I'd have been more interested in a Worf series myself.

Yeah that worries me as well.  Hopefully he lives to be like 100, but particularly after 2016 every time I see the words "Patrick Stewart, 79..." pop up on my news feed I have a mini heart attack.  I'd be a shame if the series ended up cut short and the character didn't get a proper send off.

Only interested in Worf if it was Klingons as they were in TNG/DS9.  If they ended up Discoveryified they can fuck right off.

Just watched the first episode and...

It is such a step up from Discovery.

THANK FUCK, this is great to hear.  I mean, I liked Discovery S2 to be fair but I think it's sort of like Doctor Who S12 in that what came before it was so shit that it just seems good from the recoil.  Then you watch Youtube clips of what came before both and realise it's in a different league.

This whole time with the upcoming Picard series I've been thinking "please don't be shit please don't be shit please don't be shit", and Discovery (and the reboot movies) hasn't done wonders for my confidence.  I'm hoping both this and Final Fantasy VII will be 2020's proof that you CAN revive classics from the past without it being shit.

Looking forward to seeing it.  Tonight I'm trying to help bring my parents back up to speed with stuff like the death of Data (i.e. rewatch Nemesis) and failing to explain all the complicated bollocks that spawned the 2009 reboot movies where you have to know about the destruction of Romulus and that it happened in the main timeline...
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: JamesTC on January 24, 2020, 12:46:02 AM
Thought Discovery was absolute shit that didn't want to be Star Trek. Stopped watching early on and hear it doesn't get any better.

Picard's first episode was ok.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on January 24, 2020, 01:08:31 AM
Really impressed by that. Looked great as well. Usually I'd watch Discovery and have an ever growing list of problems with it. Only had one with Picard and that was the Irish Romulan who needs to pick an accent and stick with it.

Also lots of little callbacks to TNG including an interesting one to 'Measure Of A Man'. One thing I've been wondering since watching the Children Of Mars Short Trek and reading the prequel comic is if a certain character survived the attack on Utopia Planitia. Hoping it gets addressed in the series or the final issue which oddly, like the prequel book comes out when the series is airing and not before.

I think the weeks in between episodes are going to be long! I downloaded it Thursday morning but held off and just made do with First Contact & Nemesis until it went on Prime and I could enjoy it on the big TV with headphones.

Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Ambient Sheep on January 24, 2020, 05:43:40 AM
What do I need to have watched before seeing this?  I've not seen anything since Insurrection and about half a season of Enterprise (pretty much everything before that, though).

So Nemesis, the entire Kelvin-verse, and Discovery have all passed me by.

Does this matter for understanding Picard?  Fir example, Romulus' fate had entirely passed me by until now.  What's that in?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on January 24, 2020, 06:35:27 AM
You can ignore the Kelvin-verse films, all you need to know about Nemesis is Data died and Discovery effectively doesn’t exist.

Romulus’ fate was a plot point in the first Kelvin film but you don’t need to know anything beyond what is said in the first episode of Picard (not that it was covered in much greater detail in the film).

In short, Picard is designed to be understood by someone who watched TNG, bits of the other shows and is only vaguely aware of the films. You’re good to go.

Another point I’ve been thinking about is the visual language. Discovery based its on the Kelvin films which most fans seemed to think was a mistake. Picard’s seems to be an evolution of the prime universe series and films and is better for it.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on January 24, 2020, 11:13:20 AM
Yeah, that was exactly OK. Largely fan fiction, but unlike Discovery it wasn't filmed by a mad bastard on a Catherine Wheel. To be honest I wish it was just a straight sequel about a post-war Federation with Picard as just a background character.

Also, whoever is editing the trailers should be shot with a Varon T Disruptor.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: beanheadmcginty on January 24, 2020, 12:54:18 PM
May have missed something, but that Romulan couple in Picard's chateau - are they servants?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Natnar on January 24, 2020, 12:56:06 PM
Are any DS9 characters going to be popping up on Picard at some point?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Bad Ambassador on January 24, 2020, 12:58:54 PM
Are any DS9 characters going to be popping up on Picard at some point?

I would have said there was no immediate reason since Picard didn't know any of them apart from Miles O'Brien, but he didn't know Seven of Nine either, so there we are.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Shaky on January 24, 2020, 01:01:19 PM
May have missed something, but that Romulan couple in Picard's chateau - are they servants?

He's employing them but they certainly seem more like friends.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on January 24, 2020, 01:07:07 PM
May have missed something, but that Romulan couple in Picard's chateau - are they servants?

I don't know if it will be explained who they are in the show but the prequel comic has their backstory.

Are any DS9 characters going to be popping up on Picard at some point?

Would be great to see O'Brien & Worf but apart from that not sure any of the original DS9 would have any reason to appear. Seven was brought in when they realised her character would fit in with the story well. An he was asked to be in Nemesis but declined because she saw no reason for her to be in it.

Robert Picardo said he had been in talks for his EMH to appear in S2.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on January 24, 2020, 01:16:47 PM
The Section 31 show that no one asked for is filming in May.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on January 24, 2020, 01:54:46 PM
I would have said there was no immediate reason since Picard didn't know any of them apart from Miles O'Brien

Picard had chat with Sisko in the first episode of DS9. He pretends not to know O'Brien.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Sin Agog on January 24, 2020, 01:57:07 PM
Picard had chat with Sisko in the first episode of DS9. He pretends not to know O'Brien.

There is no end to the lengths this fictional universe will go to fuck with Miles O'Brien.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on January 24, 2020, 02:30:59 PM
(https://www.serieslyawesome.tv/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/chief25.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Phil_A on January 24, 2020, 02:52:04 PM
May have missed something, but that Romulan couple in Picard's chateau - are they servants?

They seem more like his carers, but the implication was they were there out of respect for Picard due to his actions saving the Romulans.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Ambient Sheep on January 24, 2020, 03:49:59 PM
You can ignore the Kelvin-verse films, all you need to know about Nemesis is Data died and Discovery effectively doesn’t exist.

Romulus’ fate was a plot point in the first Kelvin film but you don’t need to know anything beyond what is said in the first episode of Picard (not that it was covered in much greater detail in the film).

In short, Picard is designed to be understood by someone who watched TNG, bits of the other shows and is only vaguely aware of the films. You’re good to go.

Brilliant, thank you so much for the info.

Come to think of it I'd vaguely heard about Data.  Must catch up with Nemesis some day (assuming I haven't actually watched it and just forgotten about it, but given its release date, and especially its timing against Enterprise, it's more than likely I haven't).

I've been meaning to watch the Kelvin films (was quite excited when the first one came out) but it never happened.  Picked them up cheap in CEX last year but haven't yet got round to watching them, didn't know if I had to before this (although I expected I didn't, but nice to have it confirmed).

I would probably have watched Discovery but missed its E4 debut.  Ah well.

Anyway thanks again!  Really looking forward to this.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on January 24, 2020, 06:13:12 PM
Picard had chat with Sisko in the first episode of DS9. He pretends not to know O'Brien.

Eh... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn8fQRgb_XM

Robert Picardo said he had been in talks for his EMH to appear in S2.

Funny, watching the first episode I was thinking of the EMH. He's presumably tooling around somewhere with his mobile emitter intact, but given the anti-synthetic laws surely he would be affected or even in hiding perhaps . Also, when Dahj's boyfriend is offed I was surprised she didn't call for medical assistance - surely they have something for that - ideally an EMH of some sort. They've had many iterations since mark 1.

Generally I like it so far. Patrick Stewart is very much the anchor here (as he was to large degree in TNG). The pace is slightly wonky. Dahj's plot is fast and choppy while Picard is lounging about for quite a few scenes. I think we see him open those morning windows 3 times. Otherwise I like it - it feels like Trek, but fresh. Comparing to earlier series it also feels like a natural progression (I skipped Discovery after the pilot, but otherwise "I've seen everything"). The shooting style is occasionally droney (majestic bird's eye sweeps) - I was used to the tight thriller style of First Contact and Voyager's Scorpion (I rewatched relevant episodes to refresh). But I will get used to it. The cinematography looks beautiful, the music is solid, and the fx are top notch. Let's see how it goes.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on January 24, 2020, 09:25:12 PM
Eh... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn8fQRgb_XM

A little Trek humour

(http://www.comicsonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/hardtime_232_zpsd2fe0abc-300x279.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on January 24, 2020, 11:02:22 PM
Eh... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn8fQRgb_XM


A really great little scene which is oddly missing from TV repeats.

Bonus Colm Meany https://youtube.com/watch?v=OgYHCMMgn_U
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on January 24, 2020, 11:18:24 PM
(https://www.serieslyawesome.tv/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/chief25.jpg)

How did I miss this until now?

Fantastic!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on January 24, 2020, 11:28:16 PM
Aye, really like the art style.
https://chiefobrienatwork.com/
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: colacentral on January 24, 2020, 11:37:20 PM
(https://www.serieslyawesome.tv/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/chief25.jpg)

I never noticed Colm Meaney's resemblance to Bobby Hill until now.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: phantom_power on January 24, 2020, 11:48:44 PM
I thought that was really good, so much better than ST:D. Realistic characters, intriguing plot, lived-in world. It looked great. Stewart manages to do something different in this than how he plays Xavier in X-Men, for example, that makes it clear he is Picard. This is definitely more Michael Chabon than Akiva Goldsman
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Zero Gravitas on January 25, 2020, 12:11:29 AM
That final scene with Dr Jurati had the heavy hand of focus group confusion laying on it:

Quote
P: I believe that Maddox modeled her on an old painting of Data's.
J: A female? Yes, I suppose you could make them that way.
P: Uh, I'm sorry? "Them"?
J: They're created in pairs.
P: Twins?...Twins.
P: So there's another one.

6 repetitions to make it clear that the person you're about to see isn't the same one that got blow'd up and melted earlier, particularly weird as you'd not generally take 'them' as plural in that context.

I found quite a few sections sat poorly with me in the same way, the "She's Activating! She's Activa-!" comment in the first scene. The "this painting had a title" and the portentous pause along with '...accessing...' from Index. Among others.

None of which were really needed apart from in the view of the most jaded screenwriting mindset that gives little respect to the viewer.

Perhaps I'm just grumpy, it's not as if TNG wasn't famous for it's laughable analogy to make the technobabble easier to follow "It might just give us enough to pour a little vinegar in baby's milk!" but this seems of a different character to me.

(https://i.imgur.com/ahPRpfz.gif)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Zero Gravitas on January 25, 2020, 12:45:46 AM
This did please me however:

(https://i.imgur.com/1RPgWWg.jpg)

ST finally listening to Mike Stoklasa.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on January 25, 2020, 08:15:31 AM
I didn't notice that. Then again there's so many little details that are so easy to miss. The shot of Boston has a couple as well. A Ferengi building and spot the DS9 character advertising on a billboard!

https://i.imgur.com/xHQEXd3.jpg
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Jim Bob on January 25, 2020, 09:32:23 AM
I don't know if it will be explained who they are in the show but the prequel comic has their backstory.

And to think that they say that art of filmmaking is dead.  It’s not dead, it’s just in a prequel comic.

Robert Picardo said he had been in talks for his EMH to appear in S2.

Name checks out.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on January 25, 2020, 09:34:09 AM
A really great little scene which is oddly missing from TV repeats.

Shafted by 20th century TV as well.

(http://www.comicsonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/hardtime_232_zpsd2fe0abc-300x279.jpg)

Picard gets to live out a life with a hot wife, best friends and a family. O'Brien gets 20 years in alien Shawshank.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: grainger on January 25, 2020, 10:45:27 AM
I'm a huge TNG fan, or at least I was back in the day (I can see the flaws now), and I'm surprised to see so many people (here and elsewhere) saying it feels like TNG. To me, it really, really doesn't. Picard might be a great show, but it's absolutely not what I want from Star Trek, and it certainly doesn't feel like TNG.

I would get on with it better if it was a separate SF show starring Patrick Stewart. I'm trying to enjoy Picard as a separate thing, but my brain keeps short-circuiting when I remember this is meant to be 30 years on from TNG - and to me, it just isn't the same world. It just feels like Picard (the character) has gone through into a parallel universe. One that's not as distinctive, or as interesting to inhabit.

Aside from the obligatory grimdark, the world of Picard also feels oddly lower-tech than TNG - like everything is taken from our world. The designers seem far less visionary than the creators of TNG were. They can't imagine anything not based on 2020 or other SF movies/shows. Blade-runner-esque cities, people wearing modern suits, and so on.

The original ST, and TNG, had technologies the characters used as a matter of course that seemed amazing at the time, but pre-empted what we have. Picard doesn't even try to think about this - this doesn't seem to be on the agenda. The day-to-day tech they use is just stuff from TNG with a 2020-esque interface. The Daystrom Institute looked like the office I work in. The civilian clothes looked like the ones that people in my office building wear[1]. Oddly, the Starfleet uniforms we see aren't much different to 90s Trek - here, the showrunners have stuck to Trek orthodoxy, when it's precisely the kind of ting they should have rethought. Instead, they've kept the superficial details but changed the underlying worldview.

Also, let's discuss the grimdark (which was already boring about 15 years ago). Trek was meant to give us something different, give us an optimistic future, not "the future is shit". There always has been, and always will be, plenty of SF that does that (basically everything else except the optimism of the original Star Wars, before they made that grimdark too). And yes, I realise that we have Trek precendent here: DS9 was also grimdark. I didn't like that show, either, for exactly the same reason. Grimdark doesn't make it a bad show. But please don't do that with Star Trek[2].

Now I already know from reading about Trek online that I am in a tiny minority here - everyone wants Trek to be "dark" and more "realistic". But I maintain that this really, really isn't Star Trek. It may be better, that's a judgement call, but it isn't Trek. I also realise that to may (most?) TNG fans, this does feel like TNG. I find this odd, but fair enough. But I want someone to say all this, no-one else has, so I'm doing it.

As you can tell, I am quite upset about this. TNG - and probably more than anthing else, its world, as clunkily realised as it often was - meant a great deal to me. By design, that world isn't here.
 1. Ah yes, ha ha ha TNG pyjamas etc. But at least it wasn't the same as going to work.
 2. And yes, I realise that of course Picard (the character) is going to fight against the grimdark. But that's also what every other grimdark show does.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on January 25, 2020, 10:52:16 AM

Also, let's discuss the grimdark (which was already boring about 15 years ago). Trek was meant to give us something different, give us an optimistic future, not "the future is shit". There always has been, and always will be, plenty of SF that does that (basically everything else except the optimism of the original Star Wars, before they made that grimdark too). And yes, I realise that we have Trek precendent here: DS9 was also grimdark. I didn't like that show, either, for exactly the same reason. Grimdark doesn't make it a bad show. But please don't do that with Star Trek[1].
 1. And yes, I realise that of course Picard (the character) is going to fight against the grimdark. But that's also what every other grimdark show does.

You do have a point on the dark turn. I'd say the writers/producers want to say something about our post-2016 world. I am mildly concerned it's veering too close to Bladerunner but let's see where they take it. Picard will clean it all up no doubt, like the scouring of the shire.

Sacrilege on not liking DS9. You have foresaken the prophets young man!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on January 25, 2020, 11:06:46 AM
I don't think it feels like TNG. And I can believe that the post Nemesis Federation is the way it is. The Dominion War changed everything.

It's like many producers, writers and cast have said about Star Trek in that although Gene's vision of the future was nice and everything it wasn't practical. Of course all these darker elements would be prevalent. They were present in every race in Star Trek including humans. It's just that the focus was always on the other race's bad points.

They're making a whole series based on Section 31. Albeit the shitty Discovery version and not the cloak and dagger style of DS9 & Enterprise.

Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: grainger on January 25, 2020, 01:16:02 PM
The world is full of people saying "it's not practical to aim for a better world; politicians are all corrupt, and because people are inherently shit there's no point in expecting them to be honest and it's futile expecting the world to be a better place; all you can do is make it worse for other people". And that's what helped get us into the mess we're in now.

Most modern fiction seems to start from this bleak baseline. Trek said differently. I don't want to argue about what is "practical" or "realistic". It's about having something positive to aim for. There's nothing wrong with the usual story of "one exceptional person vs. a lousy world" but it was good that one prominent show did things differently. Except now it doesn't (and don't get me started on Section fucking 31).
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: grainger on January 25, 2020, 01:24:51 PM
You do have a point on the dark turn. I'd say the writers/producers want to say something about our post-2016 world. I am mildly concerned it's veering too close to Bladerunner but let's see where they take it. Picard will clean it all up no doubt, like the scouring of the shire.

Sacrilege on not liking DS9. You have foresaken the prophets young man!

DS9 was a great show. I collected it on VHS at the time, to the end, out of residual loyalty to TNG. But I don't like it.

Picard won't "clear it up", since we're talking about the baseline world. He might succeed in his mission, but that won't be to stop the Federation being a Blade-Runner-esque world, because that's what the creators imagine it to be. To them, that isn't particularly a bad thing, it's just inevitably what the future will be like. (obv. I don't know what the creators' view are on this, but it seems likely)

Apparently, Earth was always pretty shit. As Sisko said: "It's easy to be a saint in paradise. Of course, I'm not talking about the bits of earth that are shit. I just mean the bits where rich people like Picard get to live."

:-(
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: gatchamandave on January 25, 2020, 01:50:31 PM
Good points, Grainger.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on January 25, 2020, 02:05:00 PM
Aside from the obligatory grimdark, the world of Picard also feels oddly lower-tech than TNG

I got the opposite feeling. Take that overly elaborate case thing the painting was in, folding away in a dull SFX demo reel style. That just felt too finickity for Trek, they would have just used a case. The holo interfaces, like the phone, just felt overly elaborate yet dull. Not only have we seen it all before in other sci-fi[1], but it just seems clunky whereas TNG era LCARS looked usable.

Overall, there's no doubt in my mind that this is JJ/Discovery's Trek, not Roddenberry's. All the grimdark, and almost complete absence of a sense of improvement being possible. Sure DS9 looked at the darker side of the universe, but it was still in the context of society being capable of improvement.

Also, this whole fucking Romulan Empire needing Federation help. They're a fucking massive empire, they can easily look after themselves. Why are the show creators fixated on that dead end of a plot point from the JJ Trek films?
 1. I think Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within did it well, two decades ago!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on January 25, 2020, 03:12:37 PM
The Romulans were, of course, based on the Romans. So why not have the Empire split in two and the half with Romulus in collapse after the supernova? After all, the Western Roman Empire fell in the fifth century (or thereabouts). The Eastern Roman Empire endured for another thousand years.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Dewt on January 25, 2020, 04:24:00 PM
This isn't for me, just feels like the same modern formula trading off the Star Trek franchise.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: petrilTanaka on January 25, 2020, 07:04:40 PM
The Romulans were, of course, based on the Romans. So why not have the Empire split in two and the half with Romulus in collapse after the supernova? After all, the Western Roman Empire fell in the fifth century (or thereabouts). The Eastern Roman Empire endured for another thousand years.

isn't that how the Romulan Empire came about anyway? Vulcan being the western half
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: McDead on January 25, 2020, 10:17:17 PM
This isn't for me, just feels like the same modern formula trading off the Star Trek franchise.

It is exactly that.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on January 26, 2020, 02:53:43 AM
I like it so far.

I've always (since it was even mentioned) taken it as a commentary on the current state of the world.  Don't give up on it yet.  It's saying times can get shit, but I believe the message of the show is that it can get better again and the institutions you looked up to for their warmth and kindness, but fell out of love with due to their fear, hate and bigotry, can get over themselves and be worth looking up to again.

It's an in between for me.  The idealism of Star Trek TOS+TNG can be a bit naive, but DS9 could get too grim at times.  I think the Picard show is going to say (somewhere in the middle) that we CAN have the idealism but it's not safe; we can't be complacent and must work for that kind of future and continue working for it even if we attain it.  I think it's great.  Good things don't come so easy.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on January 26, 2020, 03:44:43 AM
Not feeling it, but it's not as bad as I feared. It's obviously way too early to make a call on how the series will pan out, but my impressions from the first episode are mixed to the point where they settle on almost totally neutral.

I'm not hugely interested in what the plot seems to be - the synthetics rights question wasn't really interesting in TNG (yes, I'm one of the four people on Earth who doesn't enjoy Measure of a Man), or in Voyager with the Doctor, and I can't foresee it being any more engaging here. The Romulan refugees plot is far more interesting and I hope that gets the most focus, even though I don't understand what's going on. The entire rescue fleet sent by Starfleet was destroyed, and then what? They just decided not to send more and all became (more) racist against Romulans? Or they literally couldn't send more and Picard got outraged anyway? Only saw the episode once so if this was explained better, I missed it.

I'll also add my voice to people who say that Star Trek shouldn't be grimdark, although I don't feel Picard has strayed too far into grimdarkness yet. Like grainger, I didn't get on with the later parts of DS9 partially for the same reason (love it up to season five or so though). Outside a select few episodes, the Federation's increasing immorality never felt earned to me in DS9, and the same goes here. I don't see how the Federation of the TNG era, who had an unstoppable hard-on for cultural relativism and inclusiveness, would suddenly become racist xenophobes. And this is the whole Federation? Vulcan agreed this was logical? Betazed, the Tellarites, the fifty billion random planets Kirk invited to join, they all simultaneously agreed that isolationism and xenophobia was the best way forward? Alright. Again, I know it's the first episode, there's still plenty of room to make this interesting, and I hope they do.

In fact they've laid out plenty of decent foundation to build on. The Romulan refugee crisis could end up interesting, Starfleet could get a nuanced but still optimistic portrayal, the synth rights question could end up being a lot better than its been dealt with before (seriously, Riker asks Data to bend a steel bar and Picard calls that a "devastating" case against sentience, which he can only combat with his own even more dumb pro-sentience case). I'll watch the next episodes with hope but my adrenaline will be through the roof at all times, just waiting for the plot point or character or scene that kills the series' promise. I hope it never comes.

Then there's the stupid jarring shit like the Marvel-esque hand-to-hand fight against the Romulan assassins who dress and speak like cartoon villains, Picard getting launched 500 feet into the air by an exploding disruptor rifle, etc. I'm sure there'll be more of that to come. On the plus side, I did get a new desktop wallpaper that makes me laugh every time I see it:
(https://i.imgur.com/iWIlrgT.png)

It's better than Discovery so far but it's annoying me for a lot of the same reasons - it feels like the writers don't really want to write a Star Trek series. I'm not criticising anyone as a bad writer or suggesting they're not "true Star Trek fans" or that Star Trek should forever be confined to my exact specific tastes, but at the same time there's now two Star Trek series airing this year with like four more in the pipeline and literally none of them, as far as we can tell, seem to be interested in making something in the mold of TOS/TNG/VOY, or even DS9, in structure or tone.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on January 26, 2020, 05:03:40 AM
Random thought: Holograms aren't considered synthetics?  If they are then why is one allowed to operate the archives?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on January 26, 2020, 05:19:15 AM
Voyager tried to make a distinction between "sentient" holograms like the EMH, and other holograms a couple of times. Vaguely remember an episode where the Doctor tries to free some "enslaved" holograms only to find out they're shit and have about as much sentience as an Atari 2600 or something like that.

Good question though, especially with regards to the archive hologram, who clearly has a personality and emulates sentience. It's what always bothered me about the way TNG handled the issue of sentience - if Data is given human rights essentially just because you can't conclusively prove he's not sentient, then surely we should give human rights to the Enterprise computer (which emulates sentience more convincingly than Data in some ways), the archive hologram, talkie toaster, roombas... all of which would be up for being banned under the Federation's anti-synthetic lifeform law.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on January 26, 2020, 10:04:17 AM
That episode with the holograms was Voyager's Flesh and Blood. Latent Image has even more to say on the doc's sentience I think but anyway. The hologram issue is sticking out like a sore thumb here. I hope the writers have thought of it and don't just march Picardo on in a cameo as if he's not relevant to the synthetics issue.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: wooders1978 on January 26, 2020, 10:36:04 AM
I am not into Star Trek but I gave episode one a go and rather enjoyed it - I think it’s made in such a way to appeal to a wider audience - and a woman who kicks ass! Massively original in these times
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on January 26, 2020, 11:21:46 AM
That episode with the holograms was Voyager's Flesh and Blood. Latent Image has even more to say on the doc's sentience I think but anyway. The hologram issue is sticking out like a sore thumb here. I hope the writers have thought of it and don't just march Picardo on in a cameo as if he's not relevant to the synthetics issue.

'Author Author' has him find out he has no rights to the holo novel he creates about Voyager and they have the back and forth court case to try sort it out.

It ends with him being granted the same rights as everyone else and all the EMH's doing menial tasks talking about it. I would have thought that he would be right at the front of the argument for and against with the Synths. Maybe he'll get a mention.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on January 26, 2020, 12:54:44 PM
You can understand a certain amount of distrust of AI in the Federation; what with Nomad, M-5, V'ger, and a bunch of planets who's societies have been enslaved by automated systems. Not to mention the Borg.

There's an interesting debate to be had on the topic. Trouble is, it wouldn't exactly be interesting viewing (or, if it was, it'd be dumb).
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Pranet on January 26, 2020, 01:49:06 PM
Liked the first episode well enough.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: TwinPeaks on January 26, 2020, 01:57:43 PM
All the action in the trailer made me certain this was going to be like Discovery, but so far it's really different feeling. Not keen on the sort of high tech looking standard generic sci fi blue lights and shit, and there's gonna be a lot more than that as per the trailers, but... yeah, it's paced nicely, feels largely more TNG than Discovery. The action stuff I just think, well there was action in TNG, so there's going to be action in this, and we've had 25 years of action scenes since then so it's going to be more refined and fast paced.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: phantom_power on January 26, 2020, 06:58:21 PM
Random thought: Holograms aren't considered synthetics?  If they are then why is one allowed to operate the archives?

Presumably because they can't touch anything and therefore can't do any damage
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: olliebean on January 26, 2020, 08:24:45 PM
Presumably because they can't touch anything and therefore can't do any damage

The EMH touches things all the time. He couldn't do his job otherwise.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Zero Gravitas on January 26, 2020, 08:28:51 PM
The EMH touches things all the time. He couldn't do his job otherwise.

Only after legion ripped the guts out of his light bee and stuffed a thimble inside it.

Presumably because they can't touch anything and therefore can't do any damage

You have no right to be in this thread.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: the hum on January 26, 2020, 09:31:08 PM
That was promising, and miles ahead of Discovery already in that it achieves something it continually struggled to do (amongst the latter's myriad flaws) and that Trek was frequently so good at; building intrigue. In terms of look and feel, I think it was always going to struggle to match the aesthetics of the TNG series. For all it's greatness, TNG was very set-bound, especially in its early years, and sometimes to its detriment. It does though capture the feel of the TNG movies pretty well, and as others have said, it does feel like prime universe Trek, albeit not in a direct fashion. Will definitely be continuing with this.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: the hum on January 26, 2020, 09:50:07 PM
I don't see how the Federation of the TNG era, who had an unstoppable hard-on for cultural relativism and inclusiveness, would suddenly become racist xenophobes. And this is the whole Federation? Vulcan agreed this was logical? Betazed, the Tellarites, the fifty billion random planets Kirk invited to join, they all simultaneously agreed that isolationism and xenophobia was the best way forward?

Brexit innit.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Dropshadow on January 26, 2020, 11:19:16 PM
Brexit innit.

Borgxit. The Borg have changed everything. They can warp in, en-masse, at any time, so Starfleet are "temporarily" switching over to Fascism.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on January 27, 2020, 12:44:33 AM
The Federation will regain it's Gomtuu fishing rights back from the Romulans.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: idunnosomename on January 27, 2020, 12:55:19 AM
gift: if you dont like this show, feel free to call it "Poocard"
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: the hum on January 27, 2020, 04:36:03 AM
The Federation will regain it's Gomtuu fishing rights back from the Romulans.

Are brave Argus Array
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Ambient Sheep on January 27, 2020, 05:49:40 AM
Limmy's review:

https://twitter.com/DaftLimmy/status/1221416799411089408
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: phantom_power on January 27, 2020, 06:28:25 AM
Only after legion ripped the guts out of his light bee and stuffed a thimble inside it.

You have no right to be in this thread.

And that's why everyone hates Star Trek fans
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on January 27, 2020, 08:41:39 AM
It's interesting seeing the difference in reaction my parents have to it as well, who are not "go and post on the internet about it" nerds and only ever saw half of DS9 and Voyager and barely any Enterprise, but loved TOS and TNG.  Discovery was generally a lot of blank stares, nodding off and "what the hell just happened, what year are they in now, all this all this going back and forward in time is confusing, are those really Klingons why do they grunt so much everything is confusing" (don't even get started on trying to explain the Kelvin timeline) and a lot of "erm, who's she again?" and generally blank stares that I read as "why am I even watching this?" (something I've asked myself a few times as well). 

Hugely different with Picard.  Lit up faces, feedback of "wow, I can actually follow this", and even catching on about Dahj's twin.  Genuine interest and engagement.  This is the first time I've seen this of Trek in over 2 decades (because early Enterprise was a bit shit as well so they never got into it).

Obviously Picard gets a HUGE headstart in terms of having familiar characters and "this is about 20 years after TNG" is easier to place than "it's about 5 years before TOS at the moment but that's subject to change and no I don't know why it looks so modern oh and yes the gay one is alive again now do keep up".  But I think it definitely helps when characters have some kind of charm and when it's not all written so that you have to be a supernerd to wrap your head around what's happening.  Accessibility to more casual Trek fans in terms of complexity and pace is a huge thing it's all been missing lately.  It remains to be seen whether new characters will be charming and memorable in some way like Picard and imaginary-Data (the best Discovery S1 could manage is Saru) as I'm not sure "Doctor Bashir as a flirtatious Romulan Good-Guy Pirate" is going to cut it, but it's made a good start so far.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on January 27, 2020, 09:11:11 AM
Red Letter Media review is out.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on January 27, 2020, 09:24:32 AM
Yep, they're not massively impressed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfQdf93e63I

Mainly ripping apart the dumb Romulan Supernova idea.

They do complain that Picard isn't a friend to Data, but I think, throughout the show and in the films, you do see Picard as a mentor to Data, a guiding father figure somewhat.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on January 27, 2020, 10:44:58 AM
Yeah I didn't agree with the Picard/Data argument against their friendship. I recall an episode where Picard mentored Data in drama - he played Scrooge in the holodeck. And there's the small issue of Data saving Picard's life sacrificing his own.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on January 27, 2020, 11:00:55 AM
Of course they were friends. The whole bridge crew were. I don't see the appeal of those two annoying idiots.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on January 27, 2020, 12:17:41 PM
I have very minimal respect for most Youtube "reviewers" to be honest.  Still need to check out the ones who were recommended in the Doctor Who thread as the Youtube algorithm is obsessed with shoving the "SJWs ruining my show with all their white male hating liberal leftism" types to the top (Nerdrotic, Computing Forever et al)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Zero Gravitas on January 27, 2020, 12:40:49 PM
RLM are usually quite good, or at least quite entertaining but that was poorly thought out and too soon a judgement.

Those hack frauds must have been especially drunk when they viewed the episode, they didn't seem to have the chain of events of the evacuation figured out, misrepresented that ToS scene and don't seem to be able to parse what 'reclamation' means.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on January 27, 2020, 01:21:51 PM
They lost the plot a bit on this one. I don't agree with their First Contact movie review either. I do like 'em otherwise - best of the worst is where their talents are better placed. And shitting on Star Wars.

Off topic I watched this youtuber's Doctor Who docs recently. Rather excellent: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHfd027RMxLoPodwqvXHOkw

Top tip: stay away from Trek reviewer Dave Cullen if you don't like liberal feminism bashing.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on January 27, 2020, 05:44:29 PM
Top tip: stay away from Trek reviewer Dave Cullen if you don't like liberal feminism bashing.

Yep, that's the one who has the "Computing Forever" channel but seems to bounce between that and his own name.  From what I've seen his whole channel is "these bleddy social justice warriors" and swearing that he's DONE FOREVER with Star Trek and Doctor Who... until next week
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on January 27, 2020, 09:38:17 PM
Yep, that's the one who has the "Computing Forever" channel but seems to bounce between that and his own name.  From what I've seen his whole channel is "these bleddy social justice warriors" and swearing that he's DONE FOREVER with Star Trek and Doctor Who... until next week

The guy's a fucking ginge as well. The nerve.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: idunnosomename on January 27, 2020, 10:37:38 PM
i watched that rlm re:view this morning and for what it's worth i was a bit confused on a lot of their criticisms having not seen the show, it all seemed a bit rushed and they didn't contextualise things very well. i probably know star trek slightly better than Jay, but not much, but this does look bobbins imo

it'd be better if mike did a star trek podcast with Rich probably then they could get them out quicker to react to these home streaming things.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: New folder on January 28, 2020, 02:15:31 PM
I don't think Rich Evans is actually that good at reviewing. He's being overused beyond his abilities. Of course the Picard thing is shit but they seem to miss the point of why it's shit (see grainger's posts).

Maybe they criticise it on a less superficial level after ten minutes, but I'm not fucking watching almost an hour of this crap.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: bgmnts on January 28, 2020, 10:50:11 PM
Just watched the RLM review and it was quite good, as a half Star Trek fan. As someone who watched a bit of the original series and a few seasons of TNG, it is quite sad how it has devolved. Maybe thats the way art HAS to go but still. There is no room for old school star trek anymore. The world is too volatile.

Kind of reminds me of science fiction in general, you start off with these really interesting late 19th century works which have something to say and are political commentary or allegory or whatever. Then you have the 50s sci fi which is all about America is great and will pave the way to the new future. The Star Wars happens and its bang bang in space blow shit up good vs evil.

Depressing. Fucksake star trek.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on January 28, 2020, 11:16:17 PM
I wouldn't worry about the bleakness too much.  The impression I get is that it's about saying things CAN get bleak but CAN get back to their former glory as long as you're willing to stand up for progressive values and not be complacent and just assume a utopian future is rock solid and never at any kind of risk.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on January 28, 2020, 11:45:29 PM
Agreed. Also, good story is built on conflict. We've seen several hundred episodes of utopia coming up against external and/or philosophical conflicts. DS9 was brave enough (with Gene Roddenbery's blessing) to introduce limits to the federation's utopia. Now we're seeing something larger scale. It is still possible to go back to the joyful trekking of old. It's called The Orville. You'll note that, as enjoyable as The Orville is, it's all too familiar. Like the premise and stories have already been done. They have.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: bgmnts on January 28, 2020, 11:48:18 PM
The conflict was always more interesting when it was all about diplomacy and politics and interpersonal relatiomships and philosophical ideas. You dont need headache inducing gun fights and action sequences to have conflict. Thats Star Wars really isn't it?

Its obviously popular and thats fine but it just feels like its insulting the audience a bit. Or audiences are getting dumber.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on January 28, 2020, 11:58:22 PM
That's why I skipped Discovery and the movie reboots didn't do it for me, though I sort of enjoyed the third one. The older series had their action scenes but they usually meant something meaningful. I don't see that over tuned action in Picard, not yet anyway. There was a bit, but it was balanced with plenty of Patrick Stewart brooding, which I'm on board with. For now.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Shaky on January 29, 2020, 01:05:51 AM
Not seen it mentioned much but I thought Alison Pill was great as Dr. Jurati. She really sold a fairly exposition heavy scene and will be a nice addition to Picard's new crew.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on January 29, 2020, 02:16:37 AM
Watched the RLM vid. They leap to conclusions a fair bit and assume too much from one episode, but I think most of what they say is sound and I share a lot of their fears.

One thing that really rings true is how the writers of Discovery and (possibly) Picard are focused heavily on symbols, or things that people know about Star Trek from pop culture. Discovery's entire first season is about Klingons (even though they're not really anything like any Klingons we've seen), and the protagonist is Spock's never-before-seen-or-mentioned sister. They also have to end up in the Mirror Universe at some point for no fucking reason, because... people remember it. Then they build half of the second season entirely around The Cage, which I thought was just a bizarre thing to do even if the result was something much more watchable than season one. That's not to mention bringing Spock in because people remember Spock, bringing Section 31 in because people remember Section 31, having the Enterprise show up because it's Star Trek so it must have the Enterprise, right. And a Short Trek about tribbles, why not, everyone remembers them.

It's annoying because a lot of the new original content the writers created for Discovery was fine - the myciciiiclclcilciciciileleal network was interesting enough, the Kelpiens and goo-monsters were fine, the giant sphere that tries to download itself into the ship and fucks everything up was exactly the kind of cool weird space shit you'd expect to see in Star Trek. But then the series carries all this weird baggage from TOS/DS9 that it really didn't need to have and which completely drags it down. Picard could still go either way, but the entire plot appears to revolve around things and people we've already seen - Romulans, Soong-type androids, Borg cube, Seven, Hugh. All of which, like they say in the RLM vid, people vaguely aware of Star Trek know about.

This ties into the grimdark/"compromised Federation" stuff because Star Trek's entire appeal - to many people, anyway - is that it's mostly about reasonable people who prefer discussion to fighting and always focus on finding diplomatic and nonviolent solutions to problems (even in DS9). That's what sets Star Trek apart from other shows - I honestly can't think of any other TV sci-fi in a similar vein. Some fans hold the Federation's moral integrity so dear because there's virtually nothing else like it on TV. If you take that away, you've got all the symbols of Star Trek - Borg cube, Picard, Romulans - but you've got something that doesn't really feel like any incarnation of Star Trek before it, which is a fair thing for alienated fans to lament. I don't think Picard has strayed too far into grimdarkness yet, and I don't think we can tell what direction things are going in from just one episode, but two seasons of Discovery have convinced me the modern Star Trek writers and producers literally don't have it in them to write a traditional Star Trek story. That is to say, a story where there's not necessarily any conflict between heroes (and and maybe not even conflict with the antagonists), no ludicrously high-stakes drama, and where the main driving force behind plots is people discussing and considering solutions to problems, so I'm just glaring at the screen with a look of weaponised skepticism until they prove me wrong.

Also I just want them to eventually make an episodic series where you get an all-new adventure every week but that's all but gone as a style now :(
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: evilcommiedictator on January 29, 2020, 10:38:05 AM
Everyone going bananas over one episode. Brilliant stuff, get rid of those rumors about Nerds overreacting, RLM could have been half the length, a nate sent me some 'drunken' reviewer who honestly would have yrouble reviewing Wallace and Gromit because there are too many themes in it
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on January 29, 2020, 05:31:34 PM
Read the last issue of the prequel comic earlier. Adds absolutely nothing to the series at all. Hoping that the show is going to have some flashbacks instead.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: idunnosomename on January 29, 2020, 05:55:42 PM
problem is youtube rewards longer content now, earlier RLM stuff was muuuch shorter. sometimes restrictions are a boon to creativity. similarly Star Trek TNG on network TV vs this streaming guff
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Dex Sawash on January 30, 2020, 07:08:38 PM
Pickard show is available on Pluto TV now (1st episode)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: New folder on January 30, 2020, 09:42:48 PM
I never really believed Picard would be anything but a modern generic grimdark action sci-fi spectacle. To be honest, I'm not quite sure how TNG got away with some of its quirks at the time. Perhaps somebody at Paramount just said "Do your space show or whatever mate, not arsed" and people managed to weasel some creative freedom out of it -- the brand wasn't yet as tightly controlled. Now the Star Trek franchise is too valuable to allow room for any creative risks to take place.

The people involved in TNG had an interesting and unique vision in mind, and it shows. It's far from perfect, but for all its faults, the show is different, vibrant and creatively exploratory. I'm personally enthralled with the timeless computer interface designs, inspiring outlook into the future -- putting exploration, diplomacy and humanity's more idealistic aspiration for a better world as the main focus of the show. Even the Roddenberry-esque aspects of it feel more interesting and provocative if you compare them with a dispassionate, gagged production.

In a lot of prominent sequel/prequel cases, they misunderstand why the source material was well regarded in the first place. So they readily apply these "proven to work" methods, and it becomes another trivial consumer product with a Star Trek sticker on it. The source material ends up disrespected because of the adherence to current fads, and all creative decisions are made by some faceless risk assessment management team. An artistic piece should challenge the audience's views and expectations. Otherwise it simply panders to the viewer, and while they may enjoy it, and it might be well received at the time, do these things stand the test of time, and how much artistic value do they truly hold? It's all empty calories innit.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: earl_sleek on January 30, 2020, 09:56:29 PM
How is Picard grimdark? It's not even that normaldark (so far), not compared to the Dominon or the fucking Borg.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on January 30, 2020, 10:23:38 PM
TOS - mix of lighthearted, fucked up, action, suspense etc. Limited only by FX budget and capabilities of the time. Top rated episodes: City on the Edge of Forever, Mirror Mirror, Balance of Terror (grimdark as anything today). Early TNG - Roddenberry criticised and sidelined for more "modern" touch. Enter Berman and the Borg. Later, Berman/Braga criticised for Voyager not being dark and gritty enough (and overly episodic style). Top rated episodes? Year of Hell and Scorpion. DS9 labelled darkgrim, despite a mix of story styles to match TOS/TNG/Voyager (The Visitor, Trials and Tribble-ations, Vic Fontain episodes, etc.). Only difference? Arc style of writing and dark space station sets. Aaaand Section 31 and In the Pale Moonlight I grant you but anyway DS9 was supposed to be what it was, ignore it if you want.

Is it darkgrim or grimdark? Sounds like a cunt from Game of Thrones.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on January 30, 2020, 10:25:59 PM
Just watched the second episode. It continues the measured pace the first episode had, but it isn't spinning its wheels as the plot setup continues.

It's not slow, though, and it certainly isn't grimdark. In this episode Picard visits Starfleet and runs into the latest of a long and illustrious line of useless admirals, the type that littered TNG back in the day. It turns out that a Vulcan commodore (and I'm so glad that rank is back for some reason) in charge of security is working with the Romulans. We learn a little bit more about Picard's two Romulan helpers and what the goal of the Romulan attackers last episode could be. Quite a few nods to Star Trek history, some TNG characters get namechecked, as is the Stargazer when Picard meets the doctor from that ship again. Picard's neurological problem from All Good Things apparently is starting to bite (I'm glad somehow that wasn't ignored or handwaved away) and Vazquez Rocks appears again for the upmteenth time.

It's good. It's certainly pissing all over Discovery at this point (though to be fair that isn't hard, just stop the camera doing cartwheels and have non-irritating characters and you're three quarters the way there). Patrick Stewart is fantastic as always, but it's not just him lifting the show up. As I said before this feels like Star Trek and it's entertaining.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on January 30, 2020, 10:46:11 PM
I thought the second episode was fairly shit and a huge comedown from last week. The Irish Romulan really needs to get to fuck.

The bad.

"De cheeky feckers"

Sorry what? Fuck off. Makes no sense as to why she would speak this way. It's really off putting. Discovery version of the NCC-1701, Discovery style drones whizzing about making noise, Discovery shuttles EVERYWHERE. Couldn't they have designed something new or a slight update on what was in service 20 years previous? Lens flare, and the Romulans & Vulcans look like they're having a competition to see who can have the biggest ears.

And why do so many people speak like they're in an American high school. Fuck right off! 


The Good.

Nice to know that Geordi didn't die in the attack on Utopia Planitia considering he was the one in charge of the whole thing. Irrumodic syndrome being addressed. An unseen Stargazer Doctor. The music isn't bad and I'm beginning to like the theme as well.

I had big hopes for this after the utter bucket of shite we got with Discovery and most of those pointless awful Short Treks.

I'm in no rush to watch next week's a day early though. This one put me in a mood for the day. So many things irritated me.  But the Feckers was so bad and so out of place and nonsensical that I watched the rest of it annoyed.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on January 30, 2020, 11:00:57 PM
Anti Leptons, be gorra.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on January 30, 2020, 11:16:02 PM
So the Romulans are more realistic when they speak with an American accent?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on January 30, 2020, 11:28:58 PM
So the Romulans are more realistic when they speak with an American accent?

It's not the accent as much as what she said. I doubt that would have been in the script if the actress wasn't Irish. So why do it?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on January 30, 2020, 11:32:00 PM
Too short that one. It will be filed under early/in-between episode but lots of good stuff. Feels like Trek to me. Another vote for the titles and music. So far so good.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on January 31, 2020, 10:36:50 AM
So the Romulans are more realistic when they speak with an American accent?

Maybe if they went "Boy howdy! WOooooOOWeeeee! How bout dem knicks?"
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on January 31, 2020, 11:10:20 AM
Has anyone watched the aftershow with Will Wheaton? Probably not too interesting yet.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on January 31, 2020, 12:15:16 PM
It's not the accent as much as what she said. I doubt that would have been in the script if the actress wasn't Irish. So why do it?

Maybe it wasn’t in the script, she just added it when performing.

The two Romulans do seem too human, even if they’ve been on Earth over ten years. Though they were(are?) Tal Shiar so that could mean they have a far greater knowledge of the Federation than the other romulans.

But then aliens on Star Trek have almost always been very human.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on January 31, 2020, 08:03:38 PM
Episode 2 was ok, better than the first. Still feels like everything so far is just laying groundwork and could either turn out great or completely go to shit.

Loved the shot of sad old Picard going down a shitty escalator with his pitiful little "VISITOR" badge. Desolation

SPOILER: What's up with the Commodore character? Is she a Romulan spy? Is she a Vulcan? Is she from the Romulans, or is she a Federation traitor? No clue what's going on with her.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: beanheadmcginty on January 31, 2020, 08:28:36 PM
I assumed she was a Romulan pretending to be a Vulcan.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: petrilTanaka on January 31, 2020, 08:36:21 PM
Loved the shot of sad old Picard going down a shitty escalator with his pitiful little "VISITOR" badge. Desolation

utter Beardsley music fodder
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on January 31, 2020, 08:59:20 PM
I assumed she was a Romulan pretending to be a Vulcan.

Could be either. I think the inference was that they're part of the Zhat Vash secret society inside the Tal Shiar secret police which would suggest she's a romulan.

Commodore Oh was apparently played by Tamlyn Tomita. I couldn't work out where I knew her from. Turns out it was from the pilot film of Babylon 5 (twenty-seven years ago!).
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on January 31, 2020, 11:50:30 PM
Commodore O?
From now on I'll call her Missy. 

Also, all planets have an island (sic)

More later
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on February 01, 2020, 01:44:21 AM
I couldn't manage to watch half of that. Patrick Stewart just bumbling around having things explained to him.

The next episode is going to be this useless old fuck getting his heist gang together while the horny jerks that make up the actual cast do something portentous and fan fiction-y. There'll be one violent fight sequence to trick you into thinking this is a show.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Dewt on February 01, 2020, 04:32:31 AM
I'm just assuming the Strong Woman is going to annex Space Palestine or something and everybody cheers. That's what I'm going to get out of not watching past the first episode - an extremely unfair imagination of what happened next.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Dewt on February 01, 2020, 04:33:45 AM
You know what it is, Star Trek has to be written by people who might secretly be commies. If it's not then it just doesn't feel right.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: greenman on February 01, 2020, 05:19:13 AM
You do wonder whether JJ Abrams ability foster long term snarkishness extended to real life, do the staff in every restaurant he visits feel compelled to act in that fashion for the next decade?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Dropshadow on February 01, 2020, 10:59:12 PM
That shady too-human Romulan guy with the hair reminds me of the too-human dwarf in the awful "Hobbit" film that shagged the Maid-Marianesque elf. I don't like any of them!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Pranet on February 02, 2020, 11:00:46 AM
Picard's off duty clothes have improved since TNG. You never quite knew what the fuck he'd be wearing when he wasn't wearing his uniform back then, but I quite liked the green jumper he had in the second episode. Just as well now he is retired. Perhaps his Romulan house keepers pick out things for him.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on February 02, 2020, 11:04:35 AM
Maybe that's what's wrong about this show for me, not enough navel-cut silk shirts on men.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Dannyhood91 on February 02, 2020, 01:12:58 PM
I don’t like it when characters swear in Star Trek. I’m sure I heard someone use the shit word in episode 2. At this rate I wouldn’t be surprised if Patrick Stewart calls the audience a fat cunt as he stares directly into the camera.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on February 02, 2020, 01:53:26 PM
You know what it is, Star Trek has to be written by people who might secretly be commies. If it's not then it just doesn't feel right.

ST:Picard is the equivalent of Bloomberg trying to pet a dog.

(Discovery is Hillary having a good chuckle over Benghazi)



E02 - Just struggling to give a toss about the by-the-numbers story and characters. If this didn't have the Trek branding, would anyone bother?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mobbd on February 04, 2020, 10:16:48 AM
I'm just about okay with Picard so far. 5/10 - maybe a little more.

It isn't really what I want from ST. I'd rather have an ensemble cast telling different sorts of stories each week as they explore space. But since Star Trek is a relatively consistent universe, why not plug other formats of show, modular-fashion, into that universe? I guess that's okay.

In Picard's favour:

1. at least it isn't another unasked-for, risk-averse, timeline-mauling prequel;
2. at least it isn't completely senseless. Yet;
3. P-Stew can do no wrong - even when he's badly directed or something isn't quite right, it's still P-Stew.

The very fact that it isn't a prequel is a huge relief. When they give us something I don't really want (Federation Bad!/Romulans look like this now!), at least I can accept it as something that's happening "now" rather than constantly thinking "but it wasn't like that."

I wish it would calm down a bit. Nothingy lines delivered with maximum gravity - don't like that. Attempts at innovation/originality (flesh androids, etc) fail horribly on grounds of being pretty stupid and I wish they hadn't bothered. I wish it was just a bit friendlier and less intense in its ambitions: could we not just have Space Poirot? Or Space-Murder She Space-Wrote?

I do wish (as someone else here said) they tried a bit harder on the 'future look.' The clothes and world feel a bit too 21st-century. I know people used to laugh at Troi's space unitards and those triangular space pillows on DS9 or whatever, but at least they tried in those days.

I'll carry on watching for now. I'd rather have this old-man-parping-around sort of boring than breathless-doesn't-make-sense-space-battles sort of boring.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on February 04, 2020, 11:52:50 AM
There's rumours that Seth MacFarlane is trying to get the rights to Star Trek to take to his 5 year deal at NBC.

The Orville is the only thing that's properly felt like Star Trek to me since Enterprise so at least if its a load of bollocks he's still making that.

Also there's a track listing out for the soundtrack to Picard. Could be a bit spoilerly so best to avoid if you don't want to know too much.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mobbd on February 04, 2020, 12:29:59 PM
I liked the bit when the Utopia Planitia guy said "alright, m'niggas" to those androids. Made me look forward to their uprising.

Hope they took the time out from efficiently using poisonous gasses to poison their asses to pop that specific guy's head clean off.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mobbd on February 04, 2020, 12:32:02 PM
There's rumours that Seth MacFarlane is trying to get the rights to Star Trek to take to his 5 year deal at NBC.

I dare not dream. That would be as good as the Tarantino film and therefore destined for the same bin. ST is worth too much to CBS.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Shaky on February 04, 2020, 01:45:40 PM
I don’t like it when characters swear in Star Trek. I’m sure I heard someone use the shit word in episode 2. At this rate I wouldn’t be surprised if Patrick Stewart calls the audience a fat cunt as he stares directly into the camera.

Even better - the Starfleet Admiral said, "fucking", I believe.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on February 04, 2020, 04:41:13 PM
'Feckers', I think. Caused quite a stir revealing that Romulus had an Ireland.

Need to rewatch this - I was tired (in more ways than one) and it didn't seem as gripping and accessible as the first episode.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on February 04, 2020, 07:16:34 PM
They painted themselves into a corner with the Irish Romulan accent IF they wanted to bring O'Brien back.

"Hey Picard, is your Romulan sidekick taking the piss out of me? Ahhh Jayzus now."
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: petrilTanaka on February 04, 2020, 08:25:42 PM
'Feckers', I think. Caused quite a stir revealing that Romulus had an Ireland

She's Ireland's most Romulan Priest
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: phantom_power on February 05, 2020, 08:33:00 AM
She says "fuckers" doesn't she?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mobbd on February 05, 2020, 09:41:42 AM
She says "fuckers" doesn't she?

Booooooooo.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Dusty Substance on February 05, 2020, 03:49:57 PM

Just watched the first episode. Deary me, it wasn't good. They obviously had a lot of information to convey in a short amount of time but it was messy and the tone was completely off. I'll give the second episode a try (which is more than I can say for Discovery) but my expectations are fucking low.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on February 07, 2020, 01:05:47 AM
Better this week. Interested in what's going on again whereas after last week's I couldn't give a fuck.

I'm beginning to think there is some sort of virus going around turning people Irish. Yet another inexplicable transformation of accent this time with almost leprechaunish behaviour to boot. Totally baffled as to why.

First appearance of Hugh which was good if short. Picard's face looked a bit grainy in the flashback but that could just have been the stream on Prime. Was a bit jittery. There must be a lot of people watching as it goes up. Narek and his undercover sister a bit close for siblings.

Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mr_Simnock on February 07, 2020, 01:36:04 AM
She says "fuckers" doesn't she?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ECJWYRLs2E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ECJWYRLs2E)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on February 07, 2020, 11:35:40 AM
Now I'm not saying things are getting formulaic...

The next episode is going to be this useless old fuck getting his heist gang together while the horny jerks that make up the actual cast do something portentous and fan fiction-y. There'll be one violent fight sequence to trick you into thinking this is a show.

I guess I liked the Captain, he was 'gruff' but in that crap, mid-90s Roddenberry way. I could see him being at Quarks or something. It's just so boring, though. Just make some new Star Trek! A nice little adventure every week. Jesus, I'm so upset at Discovery being the flagship show.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on February 07, 2020, 11:46:43 AM
Just make some new Star Trek! A nice little adventure every week. Jesus, I'm so upset at Discovery being the flagship show.

Don't worry, series 3 of The Orville will be out later this year.

I read a bit more of the Seth MacFarlane rumour. If it was to happen;

The Orville would continue with him being killed off.

Discovery, Lower Decks, Section 31, A Pike series & the long rumoured Academy series would all be axed.

Wants Scott Bakula back for a project.

Apparently in talks with Shatner & Frakes for a film.

Michael Dorn has already said yes to his Worf series.

Main series will be Star Trek: Flagship, set in the Enterprise era with MacFarlane as Captain .

Which made me realise how big a load of bullshit the rumour is probably. Shame because I think he would do great with the franchise. Also he apparently approaches CBS to make Star Trek a few years back and was turned down because they were just starting to plan out Discovery.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: beanheadmcginty on February 07, 2020, 08:33:17 PM
Wish that woman would stop addressing Picard as "J.L."
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on February 07, 2020, 10:12:29 PM
Wish that woman would stop addressing Picard as "J.L."

I think it's fitting somewhat as she does in the comics and it shows what kind of relationship they had. Picard was always very formal (see the cracking Nemesis deleted scene ending) and think he would have allowed it in his latter years and more ambassadorial role.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on February 08, 2020, 02:19:18 AM
Episode 3 did nothing. More subplots introduced so the whole thing approaches a Discovery-esque clusterfuck where there's like 50 things going on at once and none of them are interesting.

Two things that really pissed me off though:
Why does unbelievably-cliched-guy have shrapnel in his shoulder?! I know he has to have it there so he can do the "cool" thing where he throws the booze on it, but his ship is docked. On or near Earth. He's not been in combat recently by the looks of it. And he was sat in his ship doing nothing until Picard arrived. The wound was fresh. Did he jam a bit of sharp metal into his shoulder when he saw Picard was outside, just so he could introduce himself in a badass way?

The other thing is that he says Picard needs to hire him, and then the scientist says it'll "cost" to go wherever they're going. There's no fucking money in TNG, come on, how do you forget/overlook that? Unless it's an intentional retcon, in which case fuck off. I guess the only hope is that they're referring to "credits" or "latinum" or one of the other currencies apparently used outside of Federation space.

Also, did anyone pick up why Raffi was fired from Starfleet? Was it just her association with Picard, so when he resigns she automatically loses her job somehow? Did she get fired for arguing against letting the Romulans die (even though it's been established the Federation physically couldn't save them), because Starfleet is evil now? Did she quit as well, and then subsequently and nonsensically blame Picard years later?

Looking around online, an increasing number of people are calling that the big twist could be that all Romulans are in fact synthetic life forms, and they need to destroy synths so that nobody ever finds out the truth. Can you imagine. Please no.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: grainger on February 08, 2020, 07:52:24 AM

The other thing is that he says Picard needs to hire him, and then the scientist says it'll "cost" to go wherever they're going. There's no fucking money in TNG, come on, how do you forget/overlook that? Unless it's an intentional retcon, in which case fuck off. I guess the only hope is that they're referring to "credits" or "latinum" or one of the other currencies apparently used outside of Federation space.

Or Picard's friend living in poverty and moaning about his privileged lifestyle. Like no-one told her (or the writers) it's a post-scarcity society. And if this world had abruptly lost that society within living memory, this would be much more front-and-centre in the world. In Star Trek: Picard, they apparently never had that kind of society.

The world of Picard is just the modern world, with spaceships in it. Most of the SF elements are cliches from other movies/TV. This was my suspicion from episode 1 and eps 2 and 3 have done nothing to convince me otherwise. I mean... vaping? They haven't even made an effort to imagine a different world from our own.

This should be a non-Trek SF show starring Patrick Stewart. It appears to say "Star Trek" on it because ST is a brand, and also so they can have "here's a thing you remember" in it, such as the Borg, with "new" "twists" like the super-secret more-badass-than-the-Talshiar-because-you-always-have-to-have-bigger-faster-better-ninja-Romulans-on-fire-who-may-as-just-say-they-are-the-Talshiar.

Yes, Gene Roddenbury was a colossal dick with often stupid ideas, but christ alive, there's a huge absence of vision at the heart of modern Trek. Picard included. very sadly.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on February 08, 2020, 09:38:52 AM
The other thing is that he says Picard needs to hire him, and then the scientist says it'll "cost" to go wherever they're going. There's no fucking money in TNG, come on, how do you forget/overlook that? Unless it's an intentional retcon, in which case fuck off. I guess the only hope is that they're referring to "credits" or "latinum" or one of the other currencies apparently used outside of Federation space.

Basically, it's only within the Federation that you have the money free luxury Communism set-up. Other places, outside of the Federation, still use money, and that's where you'd need to go if you wanted to get a ship outside of the Fed's control/notice.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Sin Agog on February 08, 2020, 10:08:51 AM
Or Picard's friend living in poverty and moaning about his privileged lifestyle. Like no-one told her (or the writers) it's a post-scarcity society. And if this world had abruptly lost that society within living memory, this would be much more front-and-centre in the world. In Star Trek: Picard, they apparently never had that kind of society.

The world of Picard is just the modern world, with spaceships in it. Most of the SF elements are cliches from other movies/TV. This was my suspicion from episode 1 and eps 2 and 3 have done nothing to convince me otherwise. I mean... vaping? They haven't even made an effort to imagine a different world from our own.

This should be a non-Trek SF show starring Patrick Stewart. It appears to say "Star Trek" on it because ST is a brand, and also so they can have "here's a thing you remember" in it, such as the Borg, with "new" "twists" like the super-secret more-badass-than-the-Talshiar-because-you-always-have-to-have-bigger-faster-better-ninja-Romulans-on-fire-who-may-as-just-say-they-are-the-Talshiar.

Yes, Gene Roddenbury was a colossal dick with often stupid ideas, but christ alive, there's a huge absence of vision at the heart of modern Trek. Picard included. very sadly.

I can't remember the line now- haven't even finished the third episode, truth be told- but somewhere near the beginning one of the characters definitely uses a meme of some sort.  Some equivalent of 'I am disappoint.'  Whatever it was, there's no fucking way it would have survived several hundred years.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on February 08, 2020, 10:58:13 AM
Didn't your one say "Protip, JL", before taking a big old vape hit?

I know characters in Star Trek are conveniently up on contemporary pop culture but I didn't expect Internet neckbeards to abide for 300 years.

'You want a ship? GET IN GRAVE you bald cunt'
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Sin Agog on February 08, 2020, 11:06:38 AM
Haha yeah protip was the one.

If they're gonna go that route, she should have gone meta and busted out a pic of a facepalming Picard.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on February 08, 2020, 11:27:03 AM
Past spoiler tags? Okay...

Bad: Yes I agree the vocabulary is jarring. I understand the producers are trying to make a show for "today's" audience but it's a big mistake. If you watch TNG and then Picard it sounds like humans have devolved into degenerate assholes. The vape is another example. Quite dumb!

Meh: The Joss Whedon vibe of the crew/ship. (Disclaimer: I do not like JW at all, except for his short lived Dollhouse). Hopefully there a richness to the characters that will become evident as the show goes on. If they go this way they need an Avon/Blake's 7 character, not these kids. Am I being too harsh? The Alison Pill character is good though.

Vulcan Eyebrow Raising: That twat and his EMH. Not sure what that's about.

Enough: Though I enjoyed the fight scene in this ep more than the others I think we've reached the quota. There have been some great hand-to-hand scenes in Trek before (DS9's Way of the Warrior springs to mind) but give it a break for a while. I suspect they won't.

Good: Hugh. Liking the character, liking the vibe. They got his scarring spot on too. I have a good feeling about Hugh and all that's going on in that cube. I hope they don't fuck it up.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: petrilTanaka on February 08, 2020, 11:34:16 AM
If they're gonna go that route, she should have gone meta and busted out a pic of a facepalming Picard.

about episode 8 or 9 they'll have a gloriously lined up shot of him in the captain's chair, and the music will swell, every other character in the Star Trek universe will stop and look towards him in awe - including an insert for Walter Koenig - and then he'll do the face palm and everything will be perfect and triumpant.

the writers will be high fiving, feeling they've done better than Kyle MacLachlan being the FBI again
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on February 08, 2020, 11:43:37 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/KsZgp2L.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Shaky on February 08, 2020, 01:46:37 PM
Bahhhhhhhhhhhhh, such crankiness. Episode 3 was fine!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on February 08, 2020, 02:23:32 PM
Much better than episode 2!

Getting quite Blake's 7 isn't it?

Parents still demonstrating how accessible modern Trek isn't though with all its bouncing around in time and places.  Missed half of it from the "no no this is 14 years in the past like that bit with the androids attacking Mars, you need to read the titles in the corner to know what's going on" and "this is the same woman as in the 14 years ago bit" discussions.

They could understand and enjoy the Orville, but the problem with that is finding a UK service that actually shows it as the process of getting torrented stuff onto the TV is tiresome.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on February 08, 2020, 08:16:54 PM
Well, I liked it. The firefight was predictable but I enjoyed the episode even without it. The addict didn’t seem that badly off and I got the feeling her living conditions were her own choice. Is this the first time Vasquez rocks has appeared as Vasquez rocks?

I would like to see a more episodic series as well as Picard, but streaming companies don’t want them. It makes sense to me. Just as episodic shows were necessary for syndication streaming networks need to have a continuing story to bring viewers back. Maybe if they did a Pike series they could be more like that? I dunno.

The Orville is good after taking a long time to climb up from crapness. But it’s too close to 90s Trek. Real Trek needs to evolve. I’d like to see an animated Trek doing new TOS or TNG in the original style, but the new shows need to be their own thing. Except Discovery, which needs cancelling.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Shaky on February 09, 2020, 02:57:01 AM
The big positive of Picard is that it does actually feel like new, evolved Trek. Beyond that, it was never going to please everybody. Personally, I'm not sure I'd want to watch an episodic series with 79-year-old Stewart doing different things every week.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Default to the negative on February 09, 2020, 09:23:50 AM
The big positive of Picard is that it does actually feel like new, evolved Trek.

Yeah. Picard is fine. If you combine TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT, then you have over 600 episodes of Trek which were made in roughly the same mold. That's more than enough of that, in my book, yet some people seem want another helping of the same exhausted formula. Another 170 more of those, please!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: New folder on February 09, 2020, 11:33:19 AM
Yeah. Picard is fine. If you combine TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT, then you have over 600 episodes of Trek which were made in roughly the same mold. That's more than enough of that, in my book, yet some people seem want another helping of the same exhausted formula. Another 170 more of those, please!

Yes, things should be fresh and different. Therefore Picard should not exist. TNG should be done. Star Trek should be done.

But if you really believe that all these shows are the same and the Star Trek-verse, or whatever it's called, needs to be different from now on, why use the characters and references from a pre-existing world? If you say you don't want more of the same, why support endless milking of same brand, why even want more Star Trek in the first place and not something new entirely?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on February 09, 2020, 04:47:50 PM
If it reboots like the Abrams films then it isn’t Trek.

It just needs to evolve with the rest of television. TNG evolved from TOS. If they stayed producing Trek as it was a quarter century ago then it wouldn’t last long.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mobbd on February 10, 2020, 09:59:40 AM
Real Trek needs to evolve.

Disagree.

Except Discovery, which needs cancelling.

Agree.

Haha. Ep 3 was okay again. As in fine. I'd rather have this sort of boring than Discovery boring, know what I'm saying?

Could have done without the sudden and inexplicable leprechauning. Someone behind the scenes has decided there needs to be a "classy, British" feel to this series and then dragged "Irish" into the longstanding "English/French" Picard confusion.

Also, why is the emergency hologram played the same actor? Let's "headcanon" that at this point in history you can download a skin for your EMH. WHY, begorra, would you make it look just like yourself? Fannies.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mobbd on February 10, 2020, 10:02:54 AM
Another 170 more of those, please!

I know you're taking the piss, but that's actually what I want.

I don't care. I'm an old man now. GIVE ME MY STAR TRAK! PROPER STAR TRAK with puzzles and mysteries and an ensemble cast and lightness of touch and a FACE IN SPACE every so often and characters whose pajamas/off-duty togs make you think "that's weird, but I'll go along with it."
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mobbd on February 10, 2020, 10:20:03 AM
Just as episodic shows were necessary for syndication streaming networks need to have a continuing story to bring viewers back.

Maybe. Page-turners like Fargo and Better Call Saul certainly work. But there was a thing a while ago about how people just use streaming TV to watch Friends on a loop because Friends (personal taste quibbles aside) was actually made to be fun: https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/aug/21/the-age-of-comfort-tv-why-people-are-secretly-watching-friends-and-the-office-on-a-loop

That's what tends to happen in our house. True marvels like Fargo and Saul aside, we usually watch the first three episodes of the Hot New Shit, forget all about it, and go back to mainlining Seinfeld and TNG.

Maybe that's the plan. Maybe Picard is an advert for TNG. As fine as Picard is, I can't imagine anyone watching it on a loop 20 years from now or indeed ever.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: evilcommiedictator on February 10, 2020, 01:05:11 PM
Just get someone to put PatStew digitally over the top of Captain Adama and rewrite the end of the show so we can have a good Picard series?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on February 10, 2020, 04:15:07 PM
Another 170 more of those, please!

I'm with Mobbd - this but unironically. I don't see how "episodic series in which literally anything can happen and the protagonists generally try to solve things peacefully" is any more or less of an exhausted format than "serialised series about evil conspiracies and people being confrontational with each other", which describes both Discovery and Picard.

To illustrate the point, look at the first five episodes of TNG season 3:
Evolution: Story about a new lifeform being discovered and a sort of character study of an egotistical scientist.

The Ensigns of Command: A diplomatic crisis with a strange alien race, which must be resolved with a clever solution. Also the story of how some shitty colony developed, and a character study of Data.

The Survivors: Mystery of how two people have apparently inexplicably survived a planetary annihilation.

Who Watches The Watchers: Discussion of religion, Federation ethics, and one of the best Prime Directive dilemmas.

The Bonding: Drama about a child losing his mother, and how you can't deal with grief by retreating into fantasy or some shit like that. Bonus character study of Worf.

Those are all notably different in tone and content, and crucially, the big strength of Star Trek - if you don't care about any individual story here, it's over in 45 minutes. Whereas if you don't care about the Klingons or the Mirrorverse in Discovery series 1, you're basically fucked. Picard has about three major plot threads and if any one of those doesn't interest the viewer, they're going to spend a huge chunk of the entire series being bored.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on February 10, 2020, 05:03:26 PM
I'd swap all of the current Trek for a handful of planet of the week  style TNG etc episodes. I don't think it's a tired format at all.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Camp Tramp on February 10, 2020, 05:03:46 PM
Just get someone to put PatStew digitally over the top of Captain Adama and rewrite the end of the show so we can have a good Picard series?

I prefer his dad Bill to Lee.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Default to the negative on February 10, 2020, 05:49:51 PM
Who Watches The Watchers: Discussion of religion, Federation ethics, and one of the best Prime Directive dilemmas.

That's the one where they use a room of ten bickering people to represent the sundering of an entire planet's society, which apparently happens over a few days, and some of the acting is on par with infants' television. Yeah, that was good. Almost as deep and cerebral as Sesame Street.

Picard is the future! Accept it.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on February 10, 2020, 06:03:30 PM
That's the one where they use a room of ten bickering people to represent the sundering of an entire planet's society, which apparently happens over a few days... Yeah, that was good. Almost as deep and cerebral as Sesame Street.

GOOD THING IT WAS OVER IN 45 MINUTES THEN INSTEAD OF DRAGGING ON FOR 10+ EPISODES

Quote
and some of the acting is on par with infants' television.

"The Picard is angry with us!!!"

Quote
Picard is the future! Accept it.

The future of ennui. The future of shit. The future of wincing as Patrick Stewart tries to scale stairs.

In all seriousness there's nothing wrong with the idea of a Star Trek series in the style of Picard, I just wish it was actually good it didn't come at the total expense of traditional Star Trek series. We've got about four billion series in the works (Picard, Discovery, Section 31, a bunch of shitty cartoons for kids) and none of them are in the style of the shows that so many people enjoyed for like four decades.

Also, Sesame Street IS CEREBRAL. Moreso than watching Picard sadly go down an escalator in his VISITOR badge anyway.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on February 10, 2020, 06:25:43 PM
Some good points there on standalone versus arc style. Dark as it was, I always thought DS9 was the perfect hybrid of both.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Default to the negative on February 10, 2020, 06:40:22 PM
DS9 is the only Trek show I watched from beginning to end. The arcs could be either a strength or a weakness.

Dominion, Klingon and Cardassia arcs: Tippity-top notch.

Ferengi arc: Mostly decent but with a tendency towards direly unfunny comic relief. It also gave us 'Profit and Lace', the worst episode of DS9 and maybe even the worst of all Trek. I don't know of a lower point in the franchise.

Bajoran religion arc: Started out bad and only got worse. In the end, it ruined Gul Dukat's character and culminated in literal wizard fights.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on February 10, 2020, 08:23:49 PM
DS9 gave us an interesting direction to go with; life outside of The Federation. In particular, exploring why some cultures would rather not join in with the fully automated luxury communism pyjama party.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VhSm6G7cVk
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on February 10, 2020, 08:37:06 PM
On the subject of worst of Trek Profit and Lace was utter utter bollocks but I think Voyager's Threshold is worse. TNGs Shades of Grey is arse and Enterprise's These Are the Voyages is a squat and shit on its own legacy. I don't get the hate for Spock's Brain. McCoy controlling Spock's body with an Atari 2600 paddle stick. What's not to love?

I agree the risks of a full arc series is that if the plot doesn't work the whole thing is arsed. Hence me giving up on Discovery. Will Picard fuck us over?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on February 10, 2020, 09:07:57 PM
Threshold largely deserves the hate it gets but I quite like it. The end is obviously stupid for the reasons everyone knows (salamanders) and the pacing/storytelling is weak but I love the idea that going at Warp 10 is something humans were never meant to be capable of, and doing it causes you to occupy every single point in the universe at once, which is such a terrifying experience that it shatters your mind and rewrites your DNA.

Spock's Brain is bad but its fun bad. Kirk uncharacteristically and suddenly lashing out at the guards, Spock directing his own brain surgery, "BRAIN AND BRAIN! WHAT IS BRAIN!", the aforementioned Atari 2600 joystick, it's all ace.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Schmo Diddley on February 10, 2020, 10:54:55 PM
DS9 is the only Trek show I watched from beginning to end. The arcs could be either a strength or a weakness.

Dominion, Klingon and Cardassia arcs: Tippity-top notch.

Ferengi arc: Mostly decent but with a tendency towards direly unfunny comic relief. It also gave us 'Profit and Lace', the worst episode of DS9 and maybe even the worst of all Trek. I don't know of a lower point in the franchise.

Bajoran religion arc: Started out bad and only got worse. In the end, it ruined Gul Dukat's character and culminated in literal wizard fights.

I watched DS9 back recently, what a fantastic series. The character arc for the cardassians as a species was brilliant, particularly Gil Dukat although his final descent was a travesty.

Quark was a good character but the tendency of the ferengis towards slapstick and banter was annoying.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on February 10, 2020, 11:02:18 PM
Oh god I'd almost flushed Profit and Lace from my brain.

Still, even if Ira Steven Behr got any flak for a cringey loltrans episode at least he didn't turn into a raging Twitter TERF
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Shaky on February 11, 2020, 05:57:44 AM
Granted I'm not an ultra-fan - I've seen nearly all episodes of every series, I guess - but there is still a very palpable trad-Trek vibe in Picard, just packaged in a slightly new and shiny format as befitting 2020. A sad Jean-Luc taking the lift says a hell of a lot more about the character and his world than seeing an old man fight monsters on different planets every week. I'm not sure a show like that would leave much of a legacy these days. Maybe 10 years ago Stewart could've got away with it.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: earl_sleek on February 11, 2020, 09:11:52 AM
DS9 gave us an interesting direction to go with; life outside of The Federation. In particular, exploring why some cultures would rather not join in with the fully automated luxury communism pyjama party.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VhSm6G7cVk

That's one of my favourite bits of all Trek. Despite the obvious differences, I've always viewed the Federation as an extension of the US, and the unquestioning "The Federations is a perfect society!!!!" line is gratingly similar to American patriotism. It's satisfying to see it taken down.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Sony Walkman Prophecies on February 11, 2020, 09:33:07 AM
Gone in with zero expectations and liking it so far. The only part I take issue with is the grumpy new pilot. Signaling that a character is a bit emotionally incontinent with tumblers of whisky, the odd cigar and a philosophy book is fine if it's a 1:45 film, but this is episodic telly. There should be plenty of time to lay groundwork for character development. Let the traits suggest themselves.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: MojoJojo on February 11, 2020, 10:37:51 AM
Ferengi arc: Mostly decent but with a tendency towards direly unfunny comic relief. It also gave us 'Profit and Lace', the worst episode of DS9 and maybe even the worst of all Trek. I don't know of a lower point in the franchise.

(https://i.postimg.cc/4dqr0ckk/Tom-Paris-Kathryn-Janeway-Lizard-Threshold-Star-Trek-Voyager.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Paris and Janeway would like a word.

(Yes I know people have brought it up already but I've already gone to the trouble of finding a picture now).
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on February 11, 2020, 11:04:54 AM
A sad Jean-Luc taking the lift says a hell of a lot more about the character and his world than seeing an old man fight monsters on different planets every week.

Yeaaah, that's not the core of Trek, this is:

COCHRANE: Believe me, Captain, immortality consists largely of boredom. What's it like out there in the galaxy?
KIRK: We're on a thousand planets and spreading out. We cross fantastic distances and everything's alive, Cochrane. Life everywhere. We estimate there are millions of planets with intelligent life. We haven't begun to map them. Interesting?
COCHRANE: How would you like to sleep for a hundred and fifty years and wake up in a new world?
KIRK: It's all out there waiting for you, but we'll need your help to get away.

The fighting (and snogging) was just a bit of amusing action, the underlying idea was of exploration and improvement. That's what made the shows so memorable and loved. There have been many 'fighting' and 'snogging' sci-fi shows, before and since, most get forgotten because that isn't an interesting premise on it's own. What Trek fans love is the idea that we can make a better future, it's a show that genuinely inspires.

So far, we haven't seen much of anything in Picard, so it's hard to judge on that basis. But the xenophobia and isolationism of The Federation that we have seen isn't ideal (and doesn't really make sense considering how diverse and widespread it is). Once again DS9 does it better, when they dealt with the paranoia infecting society when it became apparent that shape-shifters may well have infiltrated The Federation.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on February 11, 2020, 11:46:17 AM
^ Good post, agreed. It's critical for a Star Trek production IMO that the Federation is portrayed as something to aspire to, to some degree. Whether it's the borderline-utopian vision of the Federation in parts of TNG and most of VOY, or the more complicated verisons in DS9 and TOS, the Federation is always an idealistic society full of people genuinely trying to do the best they can, even if they fuck it up.

It's not clear at all what the Federation in Picard actually stands for, other than racism. I wonder how new viewers who haven't seen previous Star Trek series are reacting to this new portrayal of the Federation.

Also I've always been dubious of the accusation that Star Trek supports American patriotism via Federation-as-America allegory - it's explicitly contrasted against America plenty of times to criticise the present and demonstrate how things ought to be better. It depends on the writer and the episode, I guess, but I can't immediately think of any episode in any series that strikes me as being overwhelmingly pro-America. Even trash like "The Omega Glory", which ends with Kirk reading the fucking constitution to aliens, at least appears to be trying to criticise modern day America. "A Private Little War" comes close to Vietnam apologia but Roddenberry is such a shit writer that I genuinely can't tell what the hell that episode is trying to say.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Default to the negative on February 11, 2020, 04:37:05 PM
So far, we haven't seen much of anything in Picard, so it's hard to judge on that basis. But the xenophobia and isolationism of The Federation that we have seen isn't ideal (and doesn't really make sense considering how diverse and widespread it is).

There is a precedent for Federation prejudice against pointy eared people. In Balance of Terror, Lieutenant Stiles gets his first look at a Romulan and then turns hostile towards Spock because of the physical resemblance between Romulans and Vulcans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV9c2fj9iPM
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on February 11, 2020, 05:10:10 PM
There's so much that could have gone smoother is Spock, and Vulcans in general, would just speak up. I mean, they're supposed to be logical, so no need for embarrassment.

"Kirk, mate, I'm prone to get super horny/violent every now and then so, like, best let me go home on occasion. Yeah, it's a weird alien sex thing, soz. Oh and I've got some idiot of a brother who's a real religious berk. I believe you humans would call him a 'new age hippy twat'. No sisters though, even adopted, that is NOT a thing, and anybody who says otherwise is a liar!"
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mobbd on February 12, 2020, 10:56:05 AM
I'm with Mobbd - this but unironically.

I think we want the same thing. I was just cursed with a sarcastic tone of voice.

Genuinely love Spock's Brain and quite fond of Threshold. Gimme dat shit. But also the more serious DS9 stuff people are talking about. Love it.

We're trying to get into Enterprise at home. Neither of us ever liked it because we were afflicted with brains from an early age. But we want some new Trek, don't like the new Trek, and thought "you know, there's a whole bunch of Trek you've never really seen." Will withhold opinion until someone wants to start an Enterprise: Revisited thread.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mobbd on February 12, 2020, 11:03:02 AM
There is a precedent for Federation prejudice against pointy eared people. In Balance of Terror, Lieutenant Stiles gets his first look at a Romulan and then turns hostile towards Spock because of the physical resemblance between Romulans and Vulcans.

Sure, but that's a one-man racist band. Dr McCoy used to be a right old racist to Spock as well. And Pulaski to Data.

Always a few cunts in the workplace.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on February 13, 2020, 03:58:09 PM
The fourth episode is a bit of a let down. They pick up the Romulan samurai, battle a TOS era Romulan Bird of Prey, Seven of Nine shows up at the end, and Picard knows her, or knows of her. Meanwhile at the Borg cube - the wheels spin. Hopefully all the pieces are in place now and they can get on with things, but...

The trailer for the fifth. It looks like they're trying for a comedy episode, or at least partly. It doesn't look good.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on February 13, 2020, 04:10:05 PM
Aren't these the episodes where Kurtzman takes over show running from Chabon?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on February 13, 2020, 08:14:13 PM
That wasn't up to much, aside from great set design/visuals/CGI/whatever on the planet. Where the hell are they by the way? We're already in the Beta Quadrant? Did they ever say where Freecloud is? Did they take a big diversion just to pick up this sword guy who, as was established, is literally useless if we run into anyone with a gun - ie. everyone in Star Trek?

Anyway the plot didn't really move forward but I liked the confrontation with the guy in the bar at the end. That was the first genuinely interesting angle the show has ever put on the Romulan refugee crisis - some Romulans coming to believe that the Federation fucked the rescue effort on purpose to weaken the Empire by creating a huge disconnected diaspora of Romulans. The beheading was just lol though, what the fuck was that about. I appreciate that they had Picard get genuinely furious about it, but he's an idiot. "We need to get an assassin for our team. My god, the assassin assassinated someone! What the fuck! No way! This isn't what I hired an assassin for at all!"

Also like how Seven's first act was to show up, miss a shot, explode, and collapse. Great job Seven.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mobbd on February 14, 2020, 10:21:57 AM
The fourth episode is a bit of a let down.

I struggled to get through the first 60% and I wondered if this was my stepping off point. But! things picked up a bit after the encounter at the bar though, eh? And even at the bar, there was, as Lemming says, some intelligent ideas running around.

The fight with/flight from the Bird of Prey was the best part. I didn't even hate the pilot and his holograms. It was just nice to be flying around in a ship with a crew. And there was some decent character stuff from Pilot Man on realising that he might have to respect Picard's mad skillz as The Captain. And it was nice to see Seven.

Something that contributed to the grinding tedium of the first half (in addition to the usual lack of fun and the sepia grading) is a tendency in the script to waffle on about things that happened in the past rather than showing anything happening now. It's all "he was my friend and he died / she was killed by so-and-so / I lament what happened at / the Federation did something ten years ago." They even keep this up in the "14 years ago" segments. Stop telling and start showing, guys! It's like they're super-keen to guess at* the boring politics and melodramatic personal events between Nemesis and Picard but frightened of actually experiencing the world they've gone to the trouble of building sets for.

(*and that's weirdly what this backstory-filling feels like: guessing. It's as if they're belatedly afraid of stepping on canon despite the fact that they have the first opportunity in two prequel-obsessed decades to establish exciting new canon with impunity, which you'd think would be the most attractive thing about writing within the perimeters of a cogent and long-established fictional universe, no?).

I like P-Stew's slightly younger/extra buttery acting in the 14-years-ago segments. Baldy's got good range.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on February 14, 2020, 12:53:40 PM
I just hope he's also got his health.  I wasn't the only one in the household to pick up both in this and his appearance on HIGNFY a few years ago how he really has to choke out the words and sounds like he's been smoking 40 a day. 

Could just be though that he tends to use a "theatrical" voice on camera and simply finds it a bit harder to do with age.  The throatiness is more pronounced when he's at his scenery-chewiest ("IT WAS NO LONGER STAR FLEET" etc) so that would make sense.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Sin Agog on February 14, 2020, 01:25:25 PM
Going back to the serial/monster of the week debate, this series of Picard is (so far) proving that a lot of the worse serials are like tantric sex with either no orgasm at the end of it, or a brief puff of desultory man-dust.  They constantly lead you on, usually by doing that age-old penny dreadful technique of only making something interesting happen on the last page of an otherwise uneventful chapter.  You remember that moment and not the unmemorable stuff before it and dive straight into the next episode.  It's cheap, and only works for so long before people eventually cotton on (The Dalking Wead).  It is possible Picard will be one of those things which only makes sense taken as a whole season- I have noticed that programs tend to get better receptions from their fans when they're released all at once, Netflix-style- but the early reviews from people who'd seen all the episodes, positive though they were, didn't give me that impression.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mobbd on February 14, 2020, 02:49:28 PM
Going back to the serial/monster of the week debate, this series of Picard is (so far) proving that a lot of the worse serials are like tantric sex with either no orgasm at the end of it, or a brief puff of desultory man-dust.

Aye, that's classic Kurtzman isn't it? I hoped Chabon's novel-writerliness would help us here but I'm not convinced it will. Also, his scripts feel like they were written by a teenager.

That skidding around in socks like on The Inbetweeners? That actually happened. That came out of Michael Chabon.

Sorry. No more scorn from me. Maybe it will all shape up nicely in the end. With only ten episodes, a reasonable story-with-an-ending was probably planned.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on February 14, 2020, 09:25:51 PM
On the subject of worst of Trek Profit and Lace was utter utter bollocks but I think Voyager's Threshold is worse. TNGs Shades of Grey is arse and Enterprise's These Are the Voyages is a squat and shit on its own legacy. I don't get the hate for Spock's Brain. McCoy controlling Spock's body with an Atari 2600 paddle stick. What's not to love?

I agree the risks of a full arc series is that if the plot doesn't work the whole thing is arsed. Hence me giving up on Discovery. Will Picard fuck us over?

These Are the Voyages is the worst episode of Star Trek ever made, followed by A Night in Sickbay.


As a standalone product, Picard is okay. It's definitely got more promise than Enterprise which I feckin hated and Disco which is just an explosion of random ideas and illogical characterisations. The slow buildup isn't bothering me at the moment and I am hooking into the plot. Well maybe apart from the scenes with Soji on the cube, which for some reason are boring the hole off me. The characters are good, believable and well acted. Although Dr. Jurati, who's clearly about to turn into DIS Season 2 Tilly, is starting to annoy.

Main problem is it just doesn't feel like it's set in the Star Trek universe. It's the not the universe and the people I watched for so long.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: grainger on February 15, 2020, 12:28:05 AM
Main problem is it just doesn't feel like it's set in the Star Trek universe. It's the not the universe and the people I watched for so long.

Yep. Well that, and it's very boring. And the script isn't very good.

Why is it set in 2020, but with spaceships, Romulans and Borg? Why has Picard (sorry, "JL") hired Legolas?

"Bite me". The showrunners of later-season TNG and DS9 were unable to talk about the show without saying the word "gangbusters" every two minutes, but they resisted the temptation to put their irritating LA TV industry vernacular into the scripts. But bite me.

Episode 4, and the show still has no vision at all. It may be a decent modern show[1], but it isn't Star Trek[2].
 1. Excep it isn't, because it's boring. And I so, so, so, so wanted this to be great.
 2. And no, I'm not someone who wants it to be just like TNG. And Christ, not like VOY, please, anything but that. But at least give it the same ethos, not a philosophy of "all your efforts turn to shit so despair". I know I said this after episode 1, but I'm still hoping.... hoping for this show to turn it around. I suppose at least Stewart is too old to be wearing a vest and swinging from cables, firing dual rocket launchers at the Borg Queen, or having car chases, which he did in his movie years. But I guess I'm hoping for this show to be something it isn't. Star Trek. Instead of enjoying it for what it is. But what is that?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on February 16, 2020, 12:20:11 AM
No complaints here, I liked it and the bit of backstory for the elf.  Nice to see some of what Picard got up to just before the shit hit the fan.

"Ooh look at me: now that I'm done plucking shrapnel out of my shoulder I'm reading a book on the existential dread of the presence of death" - okay Captain Edgelord.  Or should I say Captain Cringe.

Bit of racism / apartheid stuff to piss off right wing youtubers (Cullen et al), good.

Anyway yeah it was alright, not peak action but I didn't find it boring at all. 
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on February 16, 2020, 12:35:24 AM
Bit of racism / apartheid stuff to piss off right wing youtubers (Cullen et al), good.

I've been tempted to watch Cullen's reaction to it for the laugh, but then I remembered I don't want to give the stupid ginger cunt any views. He's such a moron, he might very well be praising it for having Captain Very Manly Man Cristobal instead of some "SJW" and ignoring everything else. Although, he's played by a South American actor, so that's inclusion which is bad. So yeah, he's probs just whining.

Yeah, the shrapnel, cigars, whiskey etc. are a bit cringe, but Cristobal is worth having around just for the holo-Cristobals.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on February 16, 2020, 12:44:35 AM
I've been tempted to watch Cullen's reaction to it for the laugh, but then I remembered I don't want to give the stupid ginger cunt any views. He's such a moron, he might very well be praising it for having Captain Very Manly Man Cristobal instead of some "SJW" and ignoring everything else. Although, he's played by a South American actor, so that's inclusion which is bad. So yeah, he's probs just whining.

Yeah, the shrapnel, cigars, whiskey etc. are a bit cringe, but Cristobal is worth having around just for the holo-Cristobals.

I suspect he wouldn't be praising it, more taking him as some kind of "token white guy" stereotype.  If not the "bladdy SJW" anti racism (well, speciesism) stuff he'd be saying too much time is being spent on the 1 or 2 lines the brown female had or something.  Okay perhaps I'm being a little unfair but he does get on my tits in the few videos I've seen.

True on the many holographic versions of Captain Cid
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on February 16, 2020, 12:56:47 AM
I suspect he wouldn't be praising it, more taking him as some kind of "token white guy" stereotype.  If not the "bladdy SJW" anti racism (well, speciesism) stuff he'd be saying too much time is being spent on the 1 or 2 lines the brown female had or something.  Okay perhaps I'm being a little unfair but he does get on my tits in the few videos I've seen.

You aren't. As best as I can tell, Cullen was happily making Youtube videos about computers, then one day he saw some alt-righters on t'internet and decided he wanted in with the popular kids. So he just spouts their catchphrases in an even more meaningless and scattergun manner than usual. He's a complete clown.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wentworth Smith on February 16, 2020, 06:28:47 AM
Taken too long to get the band together but I suppose that's preferable to Discovery which has never bothered to give any of the characters personalities other than arsehole.

One, possibly overly nerdy, thing that bothers me though is why there are so many refugees. The Romulans home system was wiped out but they had a massive empire: why aren't those who somehow escaped the blowing up of their homeworld just going to one of the other Romulan planets? There would obviously be massive loss of life and devastating cultural/scientific/economic fallout but the vast majority of their empire still exists.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on February 16, 2020, 10:42:18 AM
One, possibly overly nerdy, thing that bothers me though is why there are so many refugees. The Romulans home system was wiped out but they had a massive empire: why aren't those who somehow escaped the blowing up of their homeworld just going to one of the other Romulan planets? There would obviously be massive loss of life and devastating cultural/scientific/economic fallout but the vast majority of their empire still exists.

This is where the show falls down for Trek fans. The Romulan Empire is massive, quiet possibly bigger than the Federation. They would have more than enough resources to look after themselves.

Even if you roll with that. The Federation has many shipyards throughout it's territory. Even within the Sol system, it's not just Mars' Utopia Planitia, there's ones around Earth, the Moon, and Jupiter. Then add in the numerous yards around all the other Federation home worlds.

And even if you also roll with that, there's plenty of other warp capable societies out there unaligned with the Fed who'd be happy to help if the price is right. Lots of private commercial freighters that could be put to work too.

The whole premise if flawed.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on February 16, 2020, 12:07:07 PM
This is where the show falls down for Trek fans. The Romulan Empire is massive, quiet possibly bigger than the Federation. They would have more than enough resources to look after themselves.

Even if you roll with that. The Federation has many shipyards throughout it's territory. Even within the Sol system, it's not just Mars' Utopia Planitia, there's ones around Earth, the Moon, and Jupiter. Then add in the numerous yards around all the other Federation home worlds.

And even if you also roll with that, there's plenty of other warp capable societies out there unaligned with the Fed who'd be happy to help if the price is right. Lots of private commercial freighters that could be put to work too.

The whole premise if flawed.

The only thing that made sense prior to Episode 4 is that the Empire didn't see the value in, or didn't have the resources to, save everyone. Picard talks about 900 million refugees, but surely the population of the Romulus system should be in the billions? (Unless Romulus is a much smaller or sparsely populated planet than Earth.) So maybe it was a case that the Romulan government, for whatever reason, left those 900 million out of it's own rescue plans? It wouldn't be inconsistent with anything we've seen from the Romulans that their government might deem large numbers of it's own citizens as uneconomic to rescue. But then that goes out the window when the ex Senator describes Picard making a rousing speech in the Romulan Senate, implying that they relied totally on Starfleet.

The scale of the supernova also changes. In Star Trek XI, Spock talks about it threatening the galaxy, even though Generations establishes that the destruction of a star is only a problem for the system it's in, and IRL stars die and go supernova all the time. And this is propped up by non-canon material which has the supernova originate from outside the Romulus system and the shockwave travelled through subspace, making it dangerous to a large part of the quadrant. In this case it's possible (albeit a little unlikely, imo), that the military and Tal Shiar took one look at the possible destruction of their entire Empire and not just their home system, realised that even if they had the capacity to save all their citizens they'd have nowhere to put them, and basically just gave up and legged it with a small number of senators and important citizens.

But in Picard, this explanation falls again, because it's stated to be the Romulus star itself which is gone nova, which again, implies a more local problem. Surely the Romulans would have enough colonies, and seemingly enough time, that they could relocate their citizens out of the homeworld.

Taken too long to get the band together but I suppose that's preferable to Discovery which has never bothered to give any of the characters personalities other than arsehole.

In fairness to Disco, by mid season 1 there was enough depth to Stamets, Tyler, Tilly & Saru that I was interested in what happens to them (compared to Ent, where I quickly viewed them all with dispassionate loathing or complete apathy). But then it jumped the shark straight into the mirror universe in the second half of season 1, and ruined all its characters completely in season 2.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: bgmnts on February 18, 2020, 12:04:23 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkDmRy6SP28

Really going for it are RLM.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on February 18, 2020, 08:28:46 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkDmRy6SP28

Really going for it are RLM.

I agree with more this time - great fight scene, Alison Pill is decent, hologram rights issues should come into this, primitive vocabulary, DS9 was a hybrid of one-offs and arcs, Voyager underrated but inconsistent. Great to see a Garak clip (my favourite supporting character across the series) in In the Pale Moonlight (my favourite episode across...).
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: keir on February 18, 2020, 09:31:39 PM
When they first announced that they were doing a Picard show, I thought, what I want it to be is, he runs a bistro but he also solves crimes.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on February 18, 2020, 09:37:26 PM
When they first announced that they were doing a Picard show, I thought, what I want it to be is, he runs a bistro but he also solves crimes.

You have to settle for vineyard.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Zero Gravitas on February 20, 2020, 12:09:09 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/M2nOIZ8.jpg)

But then I remember how much they hated it.
And how the uniforms gave them back spasms.
And they could never go back to playing rednecks again.
And then I'm too prepared for the weird pause between 'four' and 'lights'
And I can't even read the credits through the tears.
And I'm not sure I even like it anymore.

And they weren't even uniforms anyway.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: bgmnts on February 20, 2020, 12:10:50 AM
Currently smashing through TNG and god it's so good.

Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on February 20, 2020, 09:20:31 AM
Currently smashing through TNG and god it's so good.

Season 8 is the best: https://twitter.com/tng_s8
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on February 20, 2020, 01:25:55 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkDmRy6SP28

Really going for it are RLM.

Really glad they defended Voyager (or at least Mike did). It's severely underrated IMO. While TNG has most of the best Star Trek episodes ever made, Voyager is much more willing to take creative risks and do unconventional plots that you'd never see in TNG - the EMH getting a weird fanclub (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Virtuoso_(episode)), Seven going nuts when she has to operate the ship alone for over a month (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/One_(episode)), the space dinosaurs mentioned in the video who try to censor the truth about their origins (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Distant_Origin_(episode)), Seven assimilating all of Voyager's computers and going fucking nuts (again) (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/The_Voyager_Conspiracy_(episode)),  everyone entering an inexplicable racing tournament and Tom and B'Elanna accidentally foiling a terrorist plot because they're too busy having a lover's quarrel (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Drive_(episode)), and so on. It's far far better than it's frequently given credit for and has an edge over TNG and DS9 in a lot of ways.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: bgmnts on February 20, 2020, 02:03:08 PM
Just hit Booby Trap.

La Forge is a creepy little fuck.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on February 20, 2020, 02:07:19 PM
Just hit Booby Trap.

La Forge is a creepy little fuck.

Don't think I need to even look up the synopsis.  Bet it's that one where he gets an infatuation with a scientist he's never met and simulates her for hot sexytimes isn't it

Oh the cringe when the real one turns up...
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: bgmnts on February 20, 2020, 02:09:57 PM
It is indeed, thats after he takes a girl on a date and puts the moves on her but she obviously thought it was mates chillig out.

Fucksake Geordi.


Is there Holodeck etiquette? What if someone stumbles in on you shagging Klingons?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Endicott on February 20, 2020, 02:14:06 PM
You haven't got to the Barclay holodeck one yet then?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: bgmnts on February 20, 2020, 02:17:16 PM
I'm currently on season 3 episode 6, no appearance of Barclay yet.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on February 20, 2020, 02:20:18 PM
Ah Geordi.  Role model for many a sexually frustrated geeky type :D

Getting walked in on seems like something they'd do in the Orville, or possibly one of the lolferengi DS9 episodes (everyone knows what the holosuite was for)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on February 20, 2020, 02:27:05 PM
Getting walked in on seems like something they'd do in the Orville

They did.

(https://scifanatic-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/orv-112-202-isaaclicked.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on February 20, 2020, 02:34:46 PM
They did.

(https://scifanatic-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/orv-112-202-isaaclicked.jpg)

Right yes... think I'd repressed that memory...
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on February 20, 2020, 02:40:27 PM
It is indeed, thats after he takes a girl on a date and puts the moves on her but she obviously thought it was mates chillig out.

Fucksake Geordi.


Is there Holodeck etiquette? What if someone stumbles in on you shagging Klingons?

Dunno if you already know of it, but skip Galaxy's Child when you get to it. It's far worse. Booby Trap is bad enough, but at least you can kind of convince yourself that he's not that bad in it - the computer created the hologram for him rather than him going looking for it, and he shut it off right as it started to get into properly creepy territory.

Galaxy's Child has him meet the real Brahms and act like a little shit towards her for the entire duration, try to flirt with her in a very badly written way and get her to have dinner with him, and then when she finds out about the hologram and gets pissed off, he goes on a huge rant about how he's such a Nice Guy and she's being mean and horrible to him. Then the episode takes his side, Brahms apologises to HIM (???) and they yuck it up together over drinks.

In skipping it, though, you'll miss the sideplot in which a large fish thing sucks itself onto the side of the Enterprise and Patrick Stewart has to try to sincerely act Picard's grief at the accidental death of CGI Fish Thing's mother. So maybe check those scenes out.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: bgmnts on February 20, 2020, 02:53:29 PM
Def excited for that.

Geordi InceLaForge.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on February 20, 2020, 03:06:51 PM
Some of these episodes make me wonder what I saw in that show :D

Fun thing with rewatching it is spotting all the internet memes.  The facepalms, the "why the fuck..." meme (actually Picard acting Shakespeare at Troi's mum or something?  I can't recall) etc
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: bgmnts on February 20, 2020, 03:12:46 PM
Some of these episodes make me wonder what I saw in that show :D

It has nothing to do with Marina Sirtis in spandex, I can assure you...

Also, why do they pronounce Data the British way rather than the American way?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on February 20, 2020, 03:16:38 PM
https://www.jammersreviews.com/st-tng/s4/galaxys.php

The comments look like a wild ride

It has nothing to do with Marina Sirtis in spandex, I can assure you...

Don't think it was :P  Voyager by the time they find the Borg on the other hand...
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: bgmnts on February 20, 2020, 03:18:34 PM
https://www.jammersreviews.com/st-tng/s4/galaxys.php

Quote
The sci-fi plot, which is sort of an afterthought, involves the Enterprise studying a creature (sort of like a whale in space) that suddenly attacks the ship with deadly radiation. In defense, Picard fires phasers (minimum setting, of course). Priceless is Picard's devastated reaction when the phasers accidentally kill the creature. It's so wonderfully Picard: We came out here to study this wonderful creature and we have killed it; thus we have failed our mission. But then it turns out the creature was pregnant, and the baby survived in the womb, is born, and starts following the Enterprise around like its mother. How cute. Until it latches on and attempts to breast-feed all the ship's energy away.

Haha Star Trek is mental !
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on February 20, 2020, 04:44:08 PM
It has nothing to do with Marina Sirtis in spandex, I can assure you...

Correction! Marina Sirtis AND Gates McFadden in spandex...

<grabs screen cleaner>
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on February 20, 2020, 04:59:32 PM
Okay bored of reading through the 222 comments on Jammer's Reviews now.  9 years of circular arguments!  It's like a CaB political thread ;)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mobbd on February 20, 2020, 05:07:12 PM
Currently smashing through TNG and god it's so good.

Same. "Starship Mine" is mint.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on February 20, 2020, 06:48:23 PM
Really glad they defended Voyager (or at least Mike did). It's severely underrated IMO. While TNG has most of the best Star Trek episodes ever made, Voyager is much more willing to take creative risks and do unconventional plots that you'd never see in TNG - the EMH getting a weird fanclub (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Virtuoso_(episode)), Seven going nuts when she has to operate the ship alone for over a month (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/One_(episode)), the space dinosaurs mentioned in the video who try to censor the truth about their origins (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Distant_Origin_(episode)), Seven assimilating all of Voyager's computers and going fucking nuts (again) (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/The_Voyager_Conspiracy_(episode)),  everyone entering an inexplicable racing tournament and Tom and B'Elanna accidentally foiling a terrorist plot because they're too busy having a lover's quarrel (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Drive_(episode)), and so on. It's far far better than it's frequently given credit for and has an edge over TNG and DS9 in a lot of ways.

Dined out on TNG a couple of years ago, and fuck yeah but I'm enjoying my Voyager re-visit. Making the Netflix subscription work. Great choices above. Also, Body and Soul from Season 7 (Doc finally gets inside Seven), Blink of an Eye, Tinker Tenor Doctor Spy, Latent Image, Pathfinder, Lifeline, all the Hirogen stuff (particularly Prey), Timeless (who said Harry Kim was flat), Living Witness (Doc backup is a bit iffy but lovely stuff), Course Oblivion, Counterpoint, Meld (Brad Dourif plays a serial killer for a change), Someone To Watch Over Me made me cry... fuckin A for Voyager!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on February 20, 2020, 07:01:35 PM
At the time DS9 and Voyager were being first broadcast it was Voyager that got all the acclaim and press attention. I remember one advert Paramount or CBS ran (I think for the launch of Enterprise) which went "Before Kirk, Before Picard, Before Janeway" and DS9 fans got incensed to the point the advert was reworded to add Sisko.

But since the shows finished its DS9 that has increased in appreciation and Voyager that has diminished. There is some good stuff in Voyager, but by God there is a load of crap and I never could quite get past Janeway's quacking voice.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Endicott on February 20, 2020, 07:14:04 PM
I got about 5/7ths through Voyager when it was originally broadcast on BBC2 before I finally threw a brick at my TV screen and I haven't watched TV since.

but if you enjoy it, fair play to you

Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: bgmnts on February 20, 2020, 07:49:15 PM
Irish Unification of 2024!

Quite the prediction.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on February 20, 2020, 07:52:06 PM
Best episode yet. Now we are getting places. Still head scratching on occasion but it looks like Seven has added some depth to the proceedings. Who would have thunk.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on February 20, 2020, 07:56:55 PM
Not watched it yet, but she was much better in Voyager than you would have thought from her tight, silver jumpsuit outfit.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on February 20, 2020, 07:59:16 PM
Irish Unification of 2024!

Quite the prediction.

Trek has always been good on the predictions. Except they fucked up Fermat's Last Theorem not being solved in the TNG universe. DS9 righted it, probably on purpose.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on February 20, 2020, 08:01:43 PM
This week's isn't much of an improvement.

The Good

Mr Quark of Feringinar!
Seven really stood out as being great.
The slight hint of the Voyager theme. That's it I think


The Bad

The cartoon holograms as they approached freecloud.
Killing off Maddox.
The shifty yank speak dialogue. "Your killing' it" etc.
Several attempts at humour which were fucking awful.
Those drones are still buzzing around wherever they go.
The big reptile guy telling Rios he had smoked meat for breakfast.

And the writers must not have been a fan of poor Icheb. That was a fairly gruesome way to go. Glad Seven got revenge.


I've read the first two chapters of The Last Best Hope prequel book and it's already 100c more interesting than this drivel even it it suffers from poor dialogue as well.

So far it's had Picard being promoted and leaving the Enterprise, a chat with Crusher, Geordie oddly realising that he hasn't met a new character before because at 5" in height he thinks " he would remember meeting a hobbit ". And the mighty Worf being promoted to Captain of the Enterprise.

It seems the writer has ignored a few bits of established Canon so at so I'm interested to see what else is forgotten about. The Federation President says "holy fucking shit" at one point as well. They really need to stop shoehorning in the swearing. It was always more natural in Trek before now.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: bgmnts on February 20, 2020, 08:10:11 PM
Yes lads in another Q episode!

G'wan Q lad!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on February 20, 2020, 08:12:12 PM
Yes lads in another Q episode!

G'wan Q lad!

Q's the nuts. Tapestry is fucking awesome. S6 I think?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on February 20, 2020, 08:40:15 PM
Q's the nuts. Tapestry is fucking awesome. S6 I think?

"Is there a Jean Luck Pickard here"?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on February 20, 2020, 08:45:01 PM
New Picard episode:
Better pacing (things actually happened for a change) and slightly better dialogue.

That said, the intro made me howl laughing. The fuck was that? It's so cheap to bring a fairly minor character back after 20 years only to have him get (oddly graphically) tortured for 90 seconds and then die just to give Seven the motivation to go on her stupid dual-wield phaser rifle rampage later on. Speaking of which, I hated everything after Seven beams back down to the planet. Shoots two people in the back and then executes someone. Boring and lazy, and doesn't even offer catharsis because really who the fuck cares about the gangsters enough to want them to get shot. It would have taken a lot more skill for the writers to come up with a more interesting and less violent yet still satisfying solution in the mold of something like... uh, Star Trek, but whatever. Dual wielding.

Despite all that, Jeri Ryan was great as expected and mostly held the script together and made it feel like broadly the same character as in Voyager. Also, the leader of the gangsters is clearly Marina Sirtis from 30 years ago, what the fuck. I wonder if the actor crossed paths with the actual Sirtis on set if their filming schedules overlapped. They could have cast her as flashback-Troi and I would have totally believed it was a CGI-altered Sirtis.

Lol @ Maddox getting killed three seconds after being saved. "IT'S NOT JUST THE TAL-SHIAR... THE *FEDERATION* IS INVOLVED!!!" Oh my god!! The FEDERATION... is COMPROMISED!! FUCK!! FUCK!! FUCK!!

On the plus side, everyone's finally in the same place at last, judging by next week's trailer. No more cutting over to the Borg cube for ten minutes to watch people slide around in socks.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on February 20, 2020, 08:59:57 PM
Just watching it and they've just arrived at Freecloud. Some of the in jokes might be too obvious and start to be obnoxious.

Dabo tables, Quark's Bar AND Mr Mot's Hair Emporium in one shot? Too much.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on February 20, 2020, 09:38:24 PM
I thought this was on Fridays

Whatevs, probably still leave it til tomorrow
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on February 20, 2020, 10:27:34 PM
Plot moved on a fair bit this episode. Maddox returns, though it isn't the original actor[1]

Patrick Stewart uses the opportunity to go full Inspector Clouseau, but sort of gets away with it as it's supposed to be Picard acting after all. I probably could have done with five minutes or so less stand-offs though. Maybe they should pull back a bit on the in-series references. All those neon signs and the drink Trania https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2cdXv93cRY It can get a bit much.
 1. Which is fair enough as the original guy did one episode over thirty years ago.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on February 20, 2020, 10:33:03 PM
Plot moved on a fair bit this episode. Maddox returns, though it isn't the original actor[1]

Patrick Stewart uses the opportunity to go full Inspector Clouseau, but sort of gets away with it as it's supposed to be Picard acting after all. I probably could have done with five minutes or so less stand-offs though. Maybe they should pull back a bit on the in-series references. All those neon signs and the drink Trania https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2cdXv93cRY It can get a but much.
 1. Which is fair enough as the original guy did one episode over thirty years ago.

The references to old Trek are my favourite bits so the more the better in my view.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on February 21, 2020, 08:06:59 AM
Got as far as a guy getting his eye pulled out.

Fuck this show.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: beanheadmcginty on February 21, 2020, 08:40:20 AM
Just worked out why timid android expert girl looks so familiar. She's the absolute double of Paul Schulze, aka Father Phil from The Sopranos / Chappelle from 24.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Attila on February 21, 2020, 09:40:54 AM
We've been wending our way through Voyager over the past six months or so, and are finally up to the beginning of Series 4. I've never seen the show past the first few episodes when they originally went out, so it's like having a new Star Trek series.

Best Janeway, of course, was played by Michael J Nelson

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZLcIpbOHIU
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mobbd on February 21, 2020, 09:52:44 AM
Ep5 was a tonne more fun than anything we've had so far on this stupid series. Jeri Ryan is a class act.

A bit miffed to learn that Icheb and Maddox weren't played by their original actors. I mean, what's the point? Like anyone was chomping at the bit to find out what happens to those characters? I enjoyed seeing them because I thought it was nice that they pulled some minor Trek alumni out of retirement for one last appearance in the canon - like they did with Jonathan Del Arco. But whatever. Burp.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mobbd on February 21, 2020, 09:54:08 AM
Janeway's quacking voice.

I like it when she says "pecan pie."
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on February 21, 2020, 10:57:26 AM
Jeri Ryan is a class act.

When you hear about the shit Mulgrew gave her on set, and see how well she works on screen despite that (and the ridiculous costumes). I'd say Ryan is massively underrated, glad to see more of her.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on February 21, 2020, 08:39:23 PM
When you hear about the shit Mulgrew gave her on set, and see how well she works on screen despite that (and the ridiculous costumes). I'd say Ryan is massively underrated, glad to see more of her.

That feud was weird, and the costumes were dumb if we're being honest with ourselves. Jeri Ryan's acting chops were superb in Voyager. Watch Infinite Regress and Body & Soul for proof.

The scene between Seven and Picard about not regaining 100% humanity was the best thing in this series yet but re-considering the opener I'm starting to worry a little about the tone. It's not for kids, is it? TOS, TNG, Voy and even DS9 were mostly family friendly. Not that I give a fuck except that was always Trek's charm - it transcends demographics and simply plays to intellect, humanity and imagination, so in this case it's a decent enough metric.

Also more money references. Hmmm. Still, it's the strongest episode for me but they better get to some kind of TNG level morality tale or it's going to fissle.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: bgmnts on February 21, 2020, 08:40:37 PM
Kind of settled into a bit of downward trough after the crap Barclay episode.

Picking back up now though.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on February 21, 2020, 08:42:48 PM
Kind of settled into a bit of downward trough after the crap Barclay episode.

Picking back up now though.

Where are you? Is the crap one The Nth Degree? I kinda liked that one.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: bgmnts on February 21, 2020, 08:46:39 PM
Where are you? Is the crap one The Nth Degree? I kinda liked that one.

It was Hollow Pursuits, his first appearance. After that a few episodes that were a bit mediocre, then the one with Saul Rubenik was quite good because Saul Rubenik is good. Better now.

Anything where Worf takes centre stage I like because Klingons are ace.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on February 21, 2020, 08:59:55 PM
It was Hollow Pursuits, his first appearance. After that a few episodes that were a bit mediocre, then the one with Saul Rubenik was quite good because Saul Rubenik is good. Better now.

Anything where Worf takes centre stage I like because Klingons are ace.

Loved all things Klingon. A lot of peeps didn't but fuck them. The Most Toys was great. Karmic ending for a well portrayed cunt. End of season two parter to look forward to. Season 4 really ramps up from Data's Day onwards. I'm drunk and I'm tempted to jump in...
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on February 21, 2020, 09:04:13 PM
Yeah, that was possibly the most un-Star Trek episode of Star Trek ever made. And not in a good way. Freecloud screamed "I WISH WE WERE MAKING STAR WARS OR A NEW LIVE ACTION COWBOY BEBOP SERIES!!!"

Drug Mom Raffi apologising to her kid was cringe and forced. She's not developed enough as a character for me to care about this. And of course her attempted reconcilement doesn't survive the first test her son throws at it and she ends up back on the ship immediately, knowing it's likely never to come back, thus completely cheapening the effort. And our small rag tag bunch of misfits wouldn't be complete without one of them being a fifth column who has no hesitation about murdering her former lover seemingly cos some people told her bad things were happening.

I did buy Seven insisting on getting revenge on Troi's doppelganger . I actually think that's in keeping with the character. But they couldn't even leave that go without that the authors using her to have another dig at Star Trek's former optomistic outlook with her few words on morality after she beamed back down, and stopped only just short of calling Picard a silly old fool for having any bit of hope.

Picard with the eye-patch was funny. There I said something good.


I'm just coming to the conclusion that Picard would be better if the Star Trek serial numbers were scrubbed off and it was a standalone IP.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: bgmnts on February 21, 2020, 09:25:39 PM
Loved all things Klingon. A lot of peeps didn't but fuck them. The Most Toys was great. Karmic ending for a well portrayed cunt. End of season two parter to look forward to. Season 4 really ramps up from Data's Day onwards. I'm drunk and I'm tempted to jump in...

Get on it! Its so good.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Attila on February 21, 2020, 10:52:15 PM
It was Hollow Pursuits, his first appearance. After that a few episodes that were a bit mediocre, then the one with Saul Rubenik was quite good because Saul Rubenik is good. Better now.

Anything where Worf takes centre stage I like because Klingons are ace.

(A bit sad and not so) fun fact: David Rappaport was supposed to play the lead baddie in Hollow Pursuits, but died during the early production of the episode. Saul Rubenik came in at the last minute, as a favour to his friend Brent Spiner, if I remember correctly.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: bgmnts on February 21, 2020, 10:57:31 PM
(A bit sad and not so) fun fact: David Rappaport was supposed to play the lead baddie in Hollow Pursuits, but died during the early production of the episode. Saul Rubenik came in at the last minute, as a favour to his friend Brent Spiner, if I remember correctly.

Hollow Pursuits is the episode which introduces Barclay and his holodeck addiction.

The episode with Saul Rubenik is The Most Toys.  That is a sad fact though, he would have been good.

I love Jonathan Frakes when he grins at something stupid.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on February 22, 2020, 12:17:35 AM
Jesus Christ that was GRIM.  Fuuuucking Hell
I can see the point people are making about it "not being Trek" now.  Like, I was never one for overreacting to DS9 or thinking the Rodenberry Optimism was sacred, but this is Eastenders level shit.

Pirate Picard was fun though.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on February 22, 2020, 12:34:45 AM
Jesus Christ that was GRIM.  Fuuuucking Hell
I can see the point people are making about it "not being Trek" now.  Like, I was never one for overreacting to DS9 or thinking the Rodenberry Optimism was sacred, but this is Eastenders level shit.

Pirate Picard was fun though.

Opening the episode with Icheb having his fucking eye ripped out and Seven having to euthanise him was way further with the grit than I think anyone thought they'd go. I assume Seven is going to resurface at some point and this might have some meaning. Cos as it stands it just looks like the writers showing how hardcore and edgy they are by having an established former guest character graphically die. Which is pathetic.

I have no problem fapping to with graphic violence or stuff with grim horrible endings. I love Black Lagoon where characters are pathologically unable to stop swearing and are Nihilistic as shit, loads of people get shot, the gradual corruption of the one normal guy is the overarching thread, and half the guest characters have their personal arcs end horribly.

But that sort of stuff doesn't feel like Star Trek. Yeah, I know full well that crime, drinking, drugs, revenge, murder, flawed Starfleet Officers etc. etc. have all been in Star Trek before, but Picard is taking these elements which were all on the fringe and making them the driving force of the entire story. It does not work as Star Trek for me. It'd work as an independent IP, so it doesn't feel like it's pissing all over a legacy established over a 50 year period. Now maybe Jean-Luc will score a massive win that puts everything back on a "Trek" footing. But somehow I don't think that interests the writers.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: grainger on February 22, 2020, 12:49:06 AM
Well that was not good. A rubbish heist episode where they got out of it by a guy standing nearby just shooting the henchman.

It wasn't totally boring - I kept watching - but I couldn't give a shit about what happens next.

And I agree with Wonderful Butternut - they couldn't resist telling everyone that Picard (the character) is an idiot for being optimistic (or at least not totally cynical and murder-happy). Most of the rest of his crew are actual killers now, aren't they?

Is anything going to actually happen? I don't agree with posters saying something finally did. This felt like a side adventure. Seven showed up, did some stuff and buggered off again. So much for modern serial TV.


I suppose I keep watching because part of me can't believe they would make a show this cynical and have the gall to call it Star Trek, but I also know that I'm wrong.

Leaving aside the betrayal of the source material, it just doesn't feel like quality TV. Example: the poor dialogue: "Well that was disturbing". You don't need to spell everything out, scriptwriters.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on February 22, 2020, 02:02:22 AM
Get on it! Its so good.

Just did The Wounded. Now that's proper pathos. Fuck fuck, I'm souring on this new series.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on February 22, 2020, 02:50:57 AM
Yeah, the amazing thing about Discovery and now Picard is that even if you can manage to Stockholm syndrome yourself into thinking they're not that bad, seeing literally any halfway decent episode of TOS/TNG/VOY/DS9 blows the whole illusion apart and makes you remember what was so good about Star Trek in the first place, and how it's completely missing now.

The more I think about the last episode, the less I like it, and I didn't really like it at all when I watched it.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Attila on February 22, 2020, 09:31:29 AM
Hollow Pursuits is the episode which introduces Barclay and his holodeck addiction.

The episode with Saul Rubenik is The Most Toys.  That is a sad fact though, he would have been good.

I love Jonathan Frakes when he grins at something stupid.

Gah! OOps -- I apologise for the daft gaffe -- I've spent the last three days with a crap cold and my brain is one big haze at the moment.

I recall reading that Rappaport had filmed a couple of scenes, but no idea if they've ever seen the light of day.

Hollow Pursuits is a favourite -- Wesley's 'WHAT?!' always gets a laugh.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on February 22, 2020, 11:09:03 AM
Interested to see the reviews coming in.

Jammer's Reviews (https://www.jammersreviews.com/st-picard/s1/stardust-city-rag.php) and Ex Astris Scientia (http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/episodes/pic1.htm#stardustcityrag) both agree that the tone is depressingly unlike Star Trek. Tor (https://www.tor.com/2020/02/21/freeclouds-just-another-word-for-nothing-left-to-lose-star-trek-picards-stardust-city-rag/) liked the episode a bit more. In this review he says that Seven's line about Picard having "hope" was meant to praise Picard and grimly diminish Seven, but I read it the same way as other people here - ie, the show stopping just short of calling Picard a senile ignorant dipshit who doesn't know how Dark and Edgy life is OUT HERE ON THE FRONTIER - like Sisko's rant about people on Earth not always fully understanding the situation with the Maquis, except worse and culminating in a shootout.

People in the comments section of Jammer's Reviews are pointing out that Stewart and Kurtzman have both made a big thing of how "optimistic" and "hopeful" Star Trek is in interviews. At the 50% mark of this series, it's got to be fair to ask where the fuck any of the optimism is, surely. Big turnaround in the last five episodes maybe? Picard disarms the CONSPIRACY with a speech about friendship?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on February 22, 2020, 11:31:49 AM
You've got to expect the series to end on a high and Picard winning, Druggie Mom's mad conspiracy theories proving real for once, that sort of thing. It's always darkest before the dawn.

If it ends with everyone dead bar Picard and him stranded on a broken La Sirena drifting in deep space waiting for the coldness to claim him then you might have a point.

The eye thing and the casual swearing is unneccesary though, it doesn't add anything. Star Trek should be a family orientated show, this feels a little like Torchwood trying to prove itself grown-up.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Zero Gravitas on February 22, 2020, 12:13:30 PM
Why would an Englishman who has lived about being French (very badly) his entire life attempt that accent as part of his disguise. I think he wanted them to get caught.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on February 22, 2020, 12:13:57 PM
Yeah, the amazing thing about Discovery and now Picard is that even if you can manage to Stockholm syndrome yourself into thinking they're not that bad, seeing literally any halfway decent episode of TOS/TNG/VOY/DS9 blows the whole illusion apart and makes you remember what was so good about Star Trek in the first place, and how it's completely missing now.

Yeah, I was watching a mid season 2 ep of Disco when it was out and thought "yeah, this isn't bad. Maybe they can recover it.". Then I decided to watch "Cause and Effect" from TNG, and immediately saw Emperor Discovery's lack of clothing.

On an associated note, there's a lot of revision going on about how bad Enterprise is. Whilst it's desecration of established canon and tone pales in comparison to what's going on now, it was still a terrible show and the only reason Abrams and later Kurtzman & Co. got in the door was because Ent's shitness nearly killed the franchise.

If it ends with everyone dead bar Picard and him stranded on a broken La Sirena drifting in deep space waiting for the coldness to claim him then you might have a point.

Well there's a fan theory that season 1 will end with Picard dead and La Sirena will be renamed in his honour and the series continues under Rios and Raffi. Although I personally think that's unlikely given Sir Patrick invited Whoopi Goldberg to reprise Guinan after season 1 was shot. What's she going to be coming for if Picard is dead, to mourn at his graveside? Not to mention he's the selling point of the fucking show because he's about the only thing linking the series to Star Trek

But it doesn't need to go as far as everyone dying pathetically and Picard drifting through space to die for the series not to end on a high and recover some "Trek spirit" cos it's already pissed all over itself so much.

I'm expecting something along the lines of Soji sacrificing herself to prevent whatever huge evil the Tal Shiar think she's part of, and to expose Oh and her co-conspirators. Starfleet root out Oh and may belatedly accept they were wrong and offer to recommission Picard, Raffi and maybe Rios, but they say no because Starfleet is full of bad flawed people who are bad. Leaving us on a bit of a bummer, as the crew of La Sirena continue on their grimdark adventures in future seasons whilst the Federation slowly breaks apart because the writers want to show the progression towards the smaller, split up Federation we're going to see in Discovery Season 3. Even though that's unnecessary and borderline non-sensical when the 800 year gap is accounted for.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on February 22, 2020, 04:05:59 PM
I missed the first time around that it was Icheb. I remember when he was that kid in Voyager and am now even more depressed :(
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on February 22, 2020, 05:36:15 PM
Nice article on TNG's Yesterday's Enterprise: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-trek-episode-saved-next-generation-1280374?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook

Cracking episode.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Edley on February 22, 2020, 08:32:42 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYxWyJPD/Photo-Collage-20200222-202733551.jpg)

I'm struggling to get a handle on this guy, anyone picked up on any clues as to his disposition?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on February 22, 2020, 10:07:52 PM
Question... Is Icheb's death more un-trekky than David's death in ST3: The Search for Spock? You could argue we didn't exactly see the klingon ripping his eye guts out, etc. I think the problem is the graphic depiction rather than plot choice.

Horrible shit does happen in Trek. This freaked me out the first time I saw it...

(https://i1.wp.com/www.tor.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/intheory6.jpg?resize=475%2C363&type=vertical)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on February 22, 2020, 10:18:03 PM
Always did like Jammers Reviews.  He can be a little negative sometimes but on the whole I agree with what he says especially about that episode.

Interesting reading the comments there, it seems to be pretty black and white whether people cared about how grim it was.  Afraid I did, the more I think about it the more disappointed I am in the gratuitous violence with Icheb, what they've done to Seven's character and just the way Picard seems to be pissing into the wind with his sense of humanity.  I'm not ready to throw the towel in and respond with "IT WAS NO LONGER STAR TREK" when someone quizzes me in a few decades as an old man on why I stopped watching it, but it was still the most depressing episode of any (including movies etc) I've seen in the entire history of the franchise.

(https://i.postimg.cc/XYxWyJPD/Photo-Collage-20200222-202733551.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/wEsS0EL.png)

There's a theory/rumour going around that Captain Edgelord is also a hologram himself and that maybe it's one way to nudge at the obvious question of why no one cares that holograms may be synthetic life forms sometimes like the Voyager EMH or that weird entertainer guy from DS9
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: bgmnts on February 22, 2020, 10:21:31 PM
I hope Picard ends with it all being a classic bit of Q japery.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Edley on February 22, 2020, 10:24:20 PM
I understand next week's episode begins with Spot falling victim to the Croydon Cat Killer and ends with Data napalming all of South London. Obviously a bit of a departure from the Star Trek we know and love but brave of the writers to ask the hard questions about how a post-scarcity utopia might actually work.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on February 22, 2020, 10:25:14 PM
I'm not accusing anyone here of this, but it seems like Picard is thriving on people obtusely claiming Star Trek was both cruel and violent all along, and was a twee anachronism that needs to get with the times. Tone isn't a superficial part of fiction. The whiplash of going from a torture scene to a whimsical heist with silly disguises is evidence that the grimness isn't part of a coherent creative direction, it's just exploitative.

That one Voyager episode where there's two Toreses is a good example. The guy who's butchered for his face as a seduction attempt is gruesome and horrifying. This is just pathetic.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on February 22, 2020, 11:03:39 PM
I'm not accusing anyone here of this, but it seems like Picard is thriving on people obtusely claiming Star Trek was both cruel and violent all along, and was a twee anachronism that needs to get with the times. Tone isn't a superficial part of fiction. The whiplash of going from a torture scene to a whimsical heist with silly disguises is evidence that the grimness isn't part of a coherent creative direction, it's just exploitative.

Yeah I've seen the "well X, Y and Z was always in Star Trek!" as an excuse alright. Technically true but X, Y and Z wasn't the entire fucking content of Star Trek as it seems to be now. I feel like there's a vocal minority of Star Trek fans who actually only watched the Dominion War episodes of DS9 and Season 3 of Enterprise and think all Star Trek was dark and gritty.

What you say about tone is also correct.

In terms of viewer numbers, it's succeeding because most Star Trek fans, even ones who have big ass problems with the tone are giving it at least the first season to see where it goes.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on February 22, 2020, 11:10:39 PM
It's arguable that TNG, while not pointlessly graphic as the latest Picard episode, has a worse torture storyline. The dehumanising of Picard in the 'four lights' episode is brutal.

Picard is it's own show, but it still feels more Star Trek than Discovery ever will to me.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on February 22, 2020, 11:15:31 PM
As Jammer says.  It's not that Star Trek doesn't have a place for darkness or that it's never been done, it's just that even in DS9 (fake edit: or the TNG Cardassian episode) it had some kind of intelligence to the writing and wasn't just grim for the sake of grim and wasn't this kind of exhausting unrelenting cynicism.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on February 22, 2020, 11:17:33 PM
It's arguable that TNG, while not pointlessly graphic as the latest Picard episode, has a worse torture storyline. The dehumanising of Picard in the 'four lights' episode is brutal.

That happened to an established character partly to show the horror of torture, and partly to demonstrate what ordinarily civilised, educated people can be capable of if they believe in their own supremacy. It had a purpose.

Snuffing Icheb was just gratuitous, at this point seemingly for the sake of being gratuitous. I can't imagine what sort of Seven of Nine payoff up the road is going to make it meaningful and necessary.

Picard is it's own show, but it still feels more Star Trek than Discovery ever will to me.

Not unreasonable, but Disco is a low bar. It tries, but it's just a giant explosion of anti-logic.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on February 22, 2020, 11:20:51 PM
As Jammer says.  It's not that Star Trek doesn't have a place for darkness or that it's never been done, it's just that even in DS9 (fake edit: or the TNG Cardassian episode) it had some kind of intelligence to the writing and wasn't just grim for the sake of grim and wasn't this kind of exhausting unrelenting cynicism.

Maybe. We're halfway through the series now, so we'll have to see where it goes from here. From the 'next episode' trailer it looks like they get a lot more pro-active. I think Picard is meant to be the
beacon of hope for a Federation that has lost its way, not a deluded old man.

The Icheb bit was a mistake though and I don't defend it.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on February 22, 2020, 11:35:47 PM
Snuffing Icheb was just gratuitous, at this point seemingly for the sake of being gratuitous. I can't imagine what sort of Seven of Nine payoff up the road is going to make it meaningful and necessary.

I fear the intended payoff, such as it was, might have been the shooting spree in the bar.

They brought him back and instantly killed him just to justify another subsequent unnecessary and uninteresting scene of violence in the same episode.

Picard is it's own show, but it still feels more Star Trek than Discovery ever will to me.

Discovery vs Picard is an interesting debate to have. I'm finding myself securely on the Discovery side, which is shocking because Discovery sucks absolute shit. The first third or so of season two was the closest we've come to recapturing Star Trek in two decades, I think, but it was still a thousand miles wide of the mark.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: grainger on February 22, 2020, 11:46:01 PM
You've got to expect the series to end on a high and Picard winning, Druggie Mom's mad conspiracy theories proving real for once, that sort of thing. It's always darkest before the dawn.

If it ends with everyone dead bar Picard and him stranded on a broken La Sirena drifting in deep space waiting for the coldness to claim him then you might have a point.

The eye thing and the casual swearing is unneccesary though, it doesn't add anything. Star Trek should be a family orientated show, this feels a little like Torchwood trying to prove itself grown-up.

The thing is, even if Picard does complete his quest (and I presume he will, at some point), that doesn't make the show one iota less depressing, because the world depicted is so grim by ST standards. All Jean-Luc's doing is trying to stop the world from getting even worse. Baseline for the world of Picard is still incredibly depressing (utopian society has not so much turned to shit, as turned out to never have been much better than our own one anyway), and all he's doing is trying to maintain it at (or return it to) baseline.

The problem with the show isn't that bad stuff has happened - of course that was always the case in ST, otherwise there'd be no story or drama (yes, even in early TNG). The problem is that the writers have  taken a hammer to the optimism in TV's only optimistic SF world.

But the most fundamentally depressing thing about it is unintentional, unconscious. The world as depicted is just like our own. Same decor, same vernacular, same clothes, same vaping, same financial system. Nothing will change in hundreds of years, and by the way, it hadn't actually changed while you were watching previous ST shows - and if you imagined it had changed when you were watching them, you were clearly wrong. While the TOS and TNG crews were doing their thing, there was still rich and poor on earth, there were still slums, people still commuted to work like drones. What did you expect? That's just the way things are. Things can't ever be any different to how they are now.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on February 22, 2020, 11:51:00 PM
Discovery failed right out the door using the Kevinverse films as its visual cue.

After a poor first half of the first season it lifted a bit with the Mirror Universe section. It improved again with the first part of the second season. Then it all went to shit with the rest of that season. Tilly turned permanently into Ensign Fluster and Burnham carried on, IMHO, being more irritating than Neelix.

Now they’ve finished screwing up the past of Trek they’re off to fuck over its future.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: grainger on February 22, 2020, 11:57:34 PM
I couldn't even watch Discovery. Based on the early episodes, it was just a person running around being an action hero, unilaterally, without discussing anything with anyone, getting bollocked, and carrying on doing more of the same[1]. Pretty much the antithesis of TNG and even the more "shoot first, talk later" TOS. It may well have got less like this as it went along, but it was so fundamentally uninteresting to me that I watched two or three episodes and gave up.
 1. Note: it's now a distant memory, and it may well have not been quite like this.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on February 23, 2020, 12:14:41 AM
Maybe. We're halfway through the series now, so we'll have to see where it goes from here. From the 'next episode' trailer it looks like they get a lot more pro-active. I think Picard is meant to be the
beacon of hope for a Federation that has lost its way, not a deluded old man.

The Icheb bit was a mistake though and I don't defend it.

Yeah... as I say, not writing it off or anything.  From what Sir Pat said before it started, it sounds like it's meant to do this and then send a message that things can get better if you stand up for what's right.  But I do criticise this bump in the road along the way.

And I wonder how "Picardness" will prevail - we've seen that so far his Friendship Speeches (see also Naruto and MLP) all seem ineffective.  If the king of Trek diplomacy can't lecture the world into being better then I wonder how it would be achieved.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Edley on February 23, 2020, 12:18:52 AM
The thing is, even if Picard does complete his quest (and I presume he will, at some point), that doesn't make the show one iota less depressing, because the world depicted is so grim by ST standards. All Jean-Luc's doing is trying to stop the world from getting even worse. Baseline for the world of Picard is still incredibly depressing (utopian society has not so much turned to shit, as turned out to never have been much better than our own one anyway), and all he's doing is trying to maintain it at (or return it to) baseline.

The problem with the show isn't that bad stuff has happened - of course that was always the case in ST, otherwise there'd be no story or drama (yes, even in early TNG). The problem is that the writers have  taken a hammer to the optimism in TV's only optimistic SF world.

But the most fundamentally depressing thing about it is unintentional, unconscious. The world as depicted is just like our own. Same decor, same vernacular, same clothes, same vaping, same financial system. Nothing will change in hundreds of years, and by the way, it hadn't actually changed while you were watching previous ST shows - and if you imagined it had changed when you were watching them, you were clearly wrong. While the TOS and TNG crews were doing their thing, there was still rich and poor on earth, there were still slums, people still commuted to work like drones. What did you expect? That's just the way things are. Things can't ever be any different to how they are now.

Yeah, I agree with all of this. The people making Picard think they're very clever for rising above what they perceive as TNG's naivety. They're doing this by reducing its faith in diplomacy to an impotent righteousness that we're meant to celebrate in the character of Picard while very sensibly accepting that his position is only tenable because he's surrounded by good guys with guns (or a sword).

If Thatcher's greatest achievement was New Labour, Sloan's was Alex Kurtzman.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Zero Gravitas on February 23, 2020, 03:22:20 AM
They brought him back and instantly killed him

To a certain flavour of ideologically possessed ST fan he was the perfect character to bring back, gratuitiously torture and then with a teary eye phaser in the heart.

But I'd hope the production doesn't have its ear so close to that kind of popular pulse it influences the plot.

(https://i.imgur.com/3tft90o_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium)

The violence of it wasn't awful compared to the famous tng phaser meltings in Conspiracy, and it was practically an instant compared to the shit they put Colm through.

(https://i.imgur.com/13qH3a6.png)

No I'm not suggesting that the excellent fake prison memory episode compares in any way to this dross, but the franchise is no stranger to using and abusing characters as it sees fit. Focusing on the violence or characters out of nowhere going through some shitty stuff is besides the point a much worse crime is that it didn't say anything.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: pancreas on February 23, 2020, 03:40:21 AM

+1.

Of course the imagination's there, it's just been focus-grouped to death.

Or we're in the middle of an large-scale imagination collapse.

I suppose it is possible.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Zero Gravitas on February 23, 2020, 04:46:14 AM
...That's just the way things are. Things can't ever be any different to how they are now.

Easier to imagine the post atomic horror than the end of the sanctuary districts.

And it's quite infectious, I don't consider myself that much of a marshmallow mind but I was watching the very early seasons of TNG after the bitter taste of Picard and I couldn't help but think they were maybeee a bit of an exception, we're seeing a privileged few on a life of exploration while there's the excess labour of millions supporting them.

I'd never had an iota of similar thought in the past, sure there's at times an uneasy pseudo militarism and definitely rank, but the idea that the foundation of society is any less post-scarcity jolly never so much as existed.

There are comments about people doing things that imply something less than fully automated luxury space communism: Geordi and Jellico bonding over a boring daily shuttle run, o'Brien and his crawling through giant spider shafts but one could argue those are all anecdotes that serve the plot or scene they're not the fluidic space in which they swim.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Edley on February 23, 2020, 07:43:15 AM
+1.

Of course the imagination's there, it's just been focus-grouped to death.

Or we're in the middle of an large-scale imagination collapse.

I suppose it is possible.

I think it's less a lack of imagination than a denial of imagination. Picard is here to tell us we're not allowed to imagine nice things anymore. Because of Brexit.

On that subject (imagination, not Brexit), I'm grimly fascinated by how threatened some feel by Star Trek's contempt for money. Across hundreds of episodes, I've not yet seen a hokey sci-fi concept ruffle feathers like the very occasional reminders that humans no longer need money in the future. It inspires thinkpieces about why that's just silly and denouncements from fans who are wise enough to know better. Not bad for a concept that, off the top of my head, is made explicit in one episode of TNG, one of DS9 and two films, and usually just for a laugh.

Fortunately, the powers that be have listened and Picard has just delivered three episodes in a row where characters casually talk about money. Finally, our imaginations are free of that particular burden. Hopefully Amazon's Lord of the Rings series will follow suit and spare us the source material's infantile "wizards" and "elves". We're grownups now.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Zero Gravitas on February 23, 2020, 08:15:42 AM
I'm grimly fascinated by how threatened some feel by Star Trek's contempt for money. Across hundreds of episodes...

(https://i.imgur.com/jVRzE3G_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium)

Three volumes of those deal with the interactions of trade from the federation's allies and the balance of their command economy.

Whereas only 2 pages even so much as mention heisenberg compensators, and that's only to hand waive them as "working very nicely thankyou".
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on February 23, 2020, 08:50:13 AM
It really is telling that of all the pop culture viscera that Picard is trying to repackage, our corporate nightmare world can't handle/imagine 'no money'.

Someone up thread mentioned Mott having a fucking hairdressing franchise now because 'remember Mott?'. A vast intergalactic conspiracy of horny robots is good scifi but a blue guy being a hairdresser in a space navy just because he wants to is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on February 23, 2020, 09:03:11 AM
And on the topic of updating or subverting or inverting Star Trek or what the fuck ever; there's more to think about in Sisko's "It's easy to be a saint in paradise", than in the entirety of post-reboot Star Trek.

And to my recollection nobody gets bummed in the gob in DS9...

(Cue someone providing a perfect screen capture of how I'm wrong :D)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Zero Gravitas on February 23, 2020, 09:16:51 AM
To be fair equally couldn't square:

Let's not underestimate how little they're regressing on.


And to my recollection nobody gets bummed in the gob in DS9...

(Cue someone providing a perfect screen capture of how I'm wrong :D)

Perfect? Go on then:
(https://i.imgur.com/sFgNuCS_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on February 23, 2020, 12:25:53 PM
Earth's society being broadly sketched never troubled me. Just being told that poverty and discrimination don't exist, and seeing characters react with horror or confusion to present-day issues, is good enough. Even if "technology" and "social progress" are the very vague handwave explanations for all of it, and even if the show sometimes contradicts itself - usually with sexism/20th century gender roles in TOS and parts of TNG.

If anything, the vagueness of Earth helps the series - no matter who you are or what time period you watch the series in, it's always just an abstractly "better" world than the one you live in, which lets you project a lot of your own personal hopes onto the series. I have the feeling trying to actually define the utopian society beyond some general statements would also have dated the show very quickly. Imagine if TOS tried to actually show us a hilariously 1960s-flavoured interpretation of daily life on 23rd century Earth. The show already got bad enough with Kirk's childhood consisting of fucking "dipping little girls pigtails in inkwells" 200+ years into the future.

As for the extent of the gay space communism, I think people like O'Brien having to do boring menial work is just a fact of life. But he and anyone else in the series could quit at any time and return to live in replicator-induced bliss on Earth, yet they don't. He's in Starfleet because he genuinely wants to be and he believes in what they're doing - even if it means geting frequently tortured, mindfucked, having his daughter suddenly age 18 years, having to watch Keiko get possessed by energy things twice, getting shot by weird space rays...
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on February 23, 2020, 04:21:47 PM
To a certain flavour of ideologically possessed ST fan he was the perfect character to bring back, gratuitiously torture and then with a teary eye phaser in the heart.

But I'd hope the production doesn't have its ear so close to that kind of popular pulse it influences the plot.

The violence of it wasn't awful compared to the famous tng phaser meltings in Conspiracy, and it was practically an instant compared to the shit they put Colm through.

No I'm not suggesting that the excellent fake prison memory episode compares in any way to this dross, but the franchise is no stranger to using and abusing characters as it sees fit. Focusing on the violence or characters out of nowhere going through some shitty stuff is besides the point a much worse crime is that it didn't say anything.

I'm not sure what point you're making here? Violence and misery existed in Star Trek before? Yeah, I know.

The snuff scene isn't an isolation thing. It's the culmination (so far) of them stripping all the good and optomism out of Star Trek in favour of misery and grit. And the phaser head exploding in Conspiracy is almost cartoonish in comparison. I even said it up the page: All these things were in Star Trek either on the edges or had occasional episodes about them (annual O'Brien must suffer episode), but Picard is just making them the entire content of the series. There's been little to mitigate the miserable, broken universe that this is set in.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Zero Gravitas on February 23, 2020, 09:23:35 PM
For one I don't think you need to go that far, there's more direct material issues with the dialog, plot, aesthetics and respect for audience intelligence to be getting on with before we start accusing it of failing ideological purity standards.

We've yet to see the entire series, I think a few brave souls rescuing a temporarily diminished and rom-boozled[1] federation back to its status of galactic shining city upon a hill is a much brighter and uplifting story than the steady-state utopian polity - if anything showing we can get there (and taking a new audience along for the ride again) after stumbling is more uplifting.

And I don't find any if this, were it done well, inconsistent with the federation's failings during martial law during the dominion war or the couple of forced relocations it has tried to enforce. Theres precursors in the text as light as they are.

Much like the technological basis of star trek the social basis is by design maleable and ill definded to accommodate weekly scripts having the freedom they need, it's virtues are situated in the shared values of the crew more than a realised society: every time we come into contact with it as a concrete entity it's all evil admirals, alien takeovers and conspiracies.

Doesn't mean I don't think it's not shit though.
 1. if I didn't steal that I'm quite proud.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Edley on February 24, 2020, 01:43:03 AM
For one I don't think you need to go that far, there's more direct material issues with the dialog, plot, aesthetics and respect for audience intelligence to be getting on with before we start accusing it of failing ideological purity standards.

I'm interested in running so-called purity tests precisely because of how dreadful this show is as a drama more generally. The dialogue is rancid, the exposition oppressive, and the plot utterly vapid. I don't have the energy to catalogue all of its basic shortcomings as drama and entertainment, but all power to those who do. I think there's probably a lot to be said about how far short it falls of its quality TV aspirations.

The only reason I'm still watching is because it's Star Trek, so I'm particularly sensitive to the ways in which it fails, by my standards at least, to even be that. Fortunately for all concerned, I'm nearing my limit and promise not to still be banging on about any of this in a few pages' time. Having read the Star Wars threads as a bemused onlooker, I am determined to restrain myself.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Zero Gravitas on February 24, 2020, 03:03:21 PM
Don't looking weird to the normals put you off we don't often get a focused natter about the best tv franchise of all time around here. I do love star trek dearly and do so desperately want this to find it's stride.

I can still remember how dirty and confrontational DS9 was in it's initial episodes how for me both Brooks and Auberjonois dialog was so stilted ot gave me shivers, how the seeming centrality of the ferengi boded dark portents of space trading show 9000.

If TNG can jump over it's first few seasons to become as beloved as it is now: anything can be made to work, but what I don't think helps is rejecting it in toto rather than clearly saying what is demonstrably poor about it.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on February 24, 2020, 04:28:29 PM
The problem is that this isn't Trek. You can't remove the central conceit of Star Trek completely, as this show has, and still cling on (heh) to the idea that this is still a Trek show. You remove the optimism for society, the idea that we can, and in-show, have moved past the bigotry holding us back, you're just left with generic action sci-fi show #35216/b. Might as well have rebooted Buck Rogers (in fact, why haven't they done that already?)

So no, excusing the duff writing etc. as being the same as TNG's wonky first few seasons isn't valid. That show kept the core idea. ST:P would have to change so drastically to regain that, with so many continuity issues, that it can not rescue itself, it would have to be a different show.

What is branded as Star Trek currently seems to back up that Fredric Jameson (maybe Zizek) quote "it is easier to imagine an end to the world than an end to capitalism". End of history nihilist fiction for the end of imagination.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Zero Gravitas on February 24, 2020, 05:13:28 PM
What is branded as Star Trek currently seems to back up that Fredric Jameson (maybe Zizek) quote "it is easier to imagine an end to the world than an end to capitalism".

At least not unless you want to get laughed at.

(https://i.imgur.com/en1SmWv_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on February 24, 2020, 06:09:41 PM
It's a complaint I've seen raised about written science fiction. Notable exceptions aside (Iain M. Banks' Culture for instance) the future seems too much like today. Maybe they're trying to make it relatable and an easy way to generate conflict, which is admittedly harder in a post-scarcity society.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: grainger on February 24, 2020, 11:27:15 PM

On that subject (imagination, not Brexit), I'm grimly fascinated by how threatened some feel by Star Trek's contempt for money. Across hundreds of episodes, I've not yet seen a hokey sci-fi concept ruffle feathers like the very occasional reminders that humans no longer need money in the future. It inspires thinkpieces about why that's just silly and denouncements from fans who are wise enough to know better. Not bad for a concept that, off the top of my head, is made explicit in one episode of TNG, one of DS9 and two films, and usually just for a laugh.

Fortunately, the powers that be have listened and Picard has just delivered three episodes in a row where characters casually talk about money. Finally, our imaginations are free of that particular burden. Hopefully Amazon's Lord of the Rings series will follow suit and spare us the source material's infantile "wizards" and "elves". We're grownups now.

Ab-so-fucking-lutely. I was going to write something about fans' contempt for a post-scarcity society but didn't get round to it. Thank you. I'm glad someone else has noticed the new consensus in fandom. I was in fandom in the early 90s, and it was full of idiots, but not like it is now.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: grainger on February 24, 2020, 11:46:00 PM
If anything, the vagueness of Earth helps the series - no matter who you are or what time period you watch the series in, it's always just an abstractly "better" world than the one you live in, which lets you project a lot of your own personal hopes onto the series. I have the feeling trying to actually define the utopian society beyond some general statements would also have dated the show very quickly. Imagine if TOS tried to actually show us a hilariously 1960s-flavoured interpretation of daily life on 23rd century Earth. The show already got bad enough with Kirk's childhood consisting of fucking "dipping little girls pigtails in inkwells" 200+ years into the future.

Great points.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: grainger on February 24, 2020, 11:52:36 PM
I fucking love this thread. The only decent modern discussion of Trek I've seen.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on February 25, 2020, 01:29:47 AM
Chabon answers more fan questions. Specifically the violence and lack of optimism. Long read. I couldn't be arsed but thought people would want to read it.

Quote
Concerns about the level violence in Picard:

I am not unambivalent about the violence, myself. The choice was not made lightly, though it was made collaboratively, and therefore with a good deal of conversation and debate among the creators. And so I assure you that it is not there simply “because we can,” or because we are trying, as you somewhat uncharitably put it, to be “in.” My partners would all have their own reasons for its presence in this story, as some of us had our own reasons for shying away from it. For me, it came down to this: there has always been violence (and even torture) in Star Trek. Sometimes that violence has been implicit, sometimes explicit, according to the dictates of censorship, the nature of the situation being depicted, the aesthetic of individual creators, or technical and/or budgetary limitations. And the reason that there has always been violence in Trek is that Trek is art, and there has always been violence—implicit and explicit—in art. It belongs there. It belongs in any narrative about human beings, even human beings of the future. Violence, often, *is* the narrative. Its source. Its engine. The question of whether it’s “too much” or not is ultimately a matter of taste. Personally, I come out closer to the “less is more” end. But that is just me. In the end, I saw how little time and space we had to convey a sense of Seven’s history post-Voyager, and the things that drive and haunt her. I decided, with my partners, that intensity was warranted. Seven lives outside the rational confines of the Federation, because that is where she finds her sense of purpose. But life is hard, out there. If it wasn’t, people wouldn’t need her help so badly. And she wouldn’t have found such a compelling reason to carry on, in spite of her history of trauma. But, I hear you.

Trek and positivity (or lack thereof) and reflecting current times:

First of all, I think that the phrase (or a version of it) “Star Trek has always reflected its time” is open to multiple, potentially conflicting interpretations. It can mean, “Individual Star Trek series have always (consciously) reflected thematically many of the most pressing issues of the time when they were made.” I think that’s the sense intended by people involved with making the two current series, and it’s pretty obviously true—starting with persistent themes of nuclear annihilation, racial prejudice, mechanization, totalitarianism vs liberal democracy, on TOS, through DS9 with its themes of individual vs group identity, chosen family, reason vs faith, and the inevitable moral compromises of war. (That’s only the *conscious* ways in which Trek has reflected the times in which it was made.) But the phrase could also be taken the way (I think) you take it: that the world, the milieu depicted by Star Trek—the characters and their interactions, their capabilities and limitations as individuals, the social institutions and mores and technologies and economics and culture—reflects the world and era in which it was made. I think you’re saying that this is wrong, that here is exactly where Trek doesn’t, hasn’t. and *shouldn’t* reflect the world and times. That it has always presented its crews, Starfleet, and the Federation as improvements, as realizations of our best potential, as aspirational. If Trek has reflected our world, it’s in a kind of utopian funhouse mirror, where everything looks better. I would say that by and large that has been true, though possibly not as to the degree that many Trek fans claim, or feel. But there’s another side to the world—the people and society—depicted in Star Trek, which is all the characters, planets, cultures, mores and interactions that take place outside of Starfleet, the Federation. Many of these “outside” cultures and characters—the empires and alliances and unions— *have* deliberately reflected aspects of our world, with its all imperfection, intolerance, brutality, its humiliations and injustices, its evils. I don’t mean just in a thematic sense, but in the behavior of individual non-Federation, non-Starfleet characters, in the construction of societies around prejudices and inequalities, violence, lust for power, etc.

That brings us to Picard. In the one, long, ten-part story we’re telling, we’re asking two questions about the greater world of Star Trek (i.e, the Federation *and* everything outside the Federation). One—a venerable Star Trek question, with a long pedigree in previous series and films: What happens when the Federation, the Roddenberry Federation with all its enlightened and noble intentions, free from want, disease, (internal) war, greed, capitalism, intolerance, etc., is tested by forces inimical to its values? What happens when two of its essential principles; (security and liberty, say) come into conflict? The answer has to be—at first, it buckles. It wobbles. It may, to some extent, compromise or even betray its values, or at the very least be sorely tempted to do so. If not, there’s no point asking the question, though it’s a question that any society with aspirations like ours or the Federation’s needs to ask. If nothing can ever truly test the Federation, if nothing can rock its perfection, then it’s just a magical land. It’s Lothlorien, in its enchanted bubble, untouchable by the Shadow. And, also, profoundly *inhuman*. To me it’s the humanity of the Federation—which means among many admirable things, its imperfection, its vulnerability and the constant need to defend it from our own worst natures—that makes it truly inspiring. The other, related question we’re asking is: What about the people who live outside, at the edges (or even within) the Federation but who, for various reasons, aren’t quite *of* it. Ex-Starfleet officers, refugees, people like Seven who served on a Starfleet ship but was never actually in Starfleet. People who have fallen through the cracks, or fallen victim to their own weaknesses. What is life like for people who, for whatever reason, live beyond the benevolent boundaries of the Federation—where, for example, post-scarcity is a dream, and there is a monetary economy? Again, there is precedent for this kind of story on Trek, but the fact that our story only resolves over ten episodes, not one, or two, or four out of a season of 23, might make it feel, sometimes, that there is more darkness, more trauma in our characters’ lives. More *struggle.* This show unquestionably has darker tonalities than some others (DS9 is the standout exception). It lives more in the shadows, where the Federation’s light can’t always reach. That isn’t to condemn, criticize, undo, break or, god knows, betray the Federation or Gene Roddenberry’s vision. Shadow defines light.

Every new Trek series since TNG has sought to escape what can feel like the confines of previous series, not simply of canon (which can also be a strangely liberating force) but of the kinds of stories, about the kinds of characters and societies, that have already been told. Each new series has expressed this impulse to “light out for the territories” in a different way. TNG went a century into the future of TOS. DS9 went onto a station full of aliens that was both beyond the edge of the Federation and next to a wormhole that led to the Gamma Quadrant. VOY put 70k light-years between it and its predecessors, and introduced a raft of new species and worlds. ENT went deep into the early past of the Federation. Next season’s DIS goes to the Trek universe’s far-future.
The space we found for Picard is not “dark Federation.” It’s one of people who live and work at or beyond the margins of the Federation who travel beyond its boundaries to find the truth.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Zero Gravitas on February 25, 2020, 03:09:24 AM
May be the least of their crimes this week after they went down the "fuck it pimps and eyepatches" route on the costumes, but how much less effort could have gone into that rubber thing:

(https://i.imgur.com/JBWJhCn.png)

Vaguely the same shape but even from a distance you can tell it's a synthetic dark amalgam, but people who never saw the original won't care.

Chabon answers more fan questions. Specifically the violence and lack of optimism. Long read. I couldn't be arsed but thought people would want to read it.

Quote
I never watched or liked star trek, I find Gene Roddenberry's dreams and vision childish and wish to stomp any and all legacy his creation has into the dirt.

Almost what you'd expect from a writing room attempting to construct a defense that'll at least make you want to finish the season, all the art is in the pitch after all.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: bgmnts on February 25, 2020, 04:06:44 AM
Starting to get really confused with Troi, she's incredibly sexy but is also just naturally warm and comforting and I want her cuddle me to sleep.

Brilliantly performed by Sirtis but god knows what I should be feeling.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on February 25, 2020, 09:43:01 AM
Chabon answers more fan questions. Specifically the violence and lack of optimism. Long read. I couldn't be arsed but thought people would want to read it.
Quote
...What happens when the Federation, the Roddenberry Federation with all its enlightened and noble intentions, free from want, disease, (internal) war, greed, capitalism, intolerance, etc., is tested by forces inimical to its values?...

Well, that contradicts what's been put into ST:P. The Federation hasn't been tested by outside forces, it IS full of greed, capitalism, and intolerance, according to the show.

The rest of it is pretty disingenuous. Yes there has been violence in the show, but no, that doesn't excuse graphically showing someone being subjected to vivisection[1] before being mercy killed. Proper Trek allowed kids to watch, because it's important to inspire them. Many people grew up on the shows went on to work on stuff that reached for the future. The swearing doesn't help with that much either.

Doubt modern Trek would ever inspire a picture like this:
(https://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/1zOl-wZekYR_meCnX-qXHeA-1.jpeg)
 1. Voyager did that much better, without needing to kill anything, and exploring moral issues around it.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Sin Agog on February 25, 2020, 09:51:03 AM
I used to be terrified that one day in Star Trek Land we'll all die because we ate all the atoms with the replicators.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on February 25, 2020, 10:30:28 AM
I can see the point they're making on defending the show, it's a reflection of modern times in that you think things are all happy and we're constantly moving forward and away from issues like racism and poverty, and then out of the blue suddenly the Nazis are back, you have more people sleeping rough than for decades, etc.  It's a warning that a progressive society is still vulnerable and still can be endangered by complacency.  But, no doubt, will show that it can be healed if it does "wobble" as long as the right people stand up for it and hold it to account.

But yeah I get it, I miss the optimistic "inspire the present by dreaming about a perfect future" thing myself.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: evilcommiedictator on February 25, 2020, 10:34:04 AM
To me, it has the same problem that new Star Wars has - there's a political backstory to be told, and lots of people who want and require it to be there to put the story in place, and it's plainly not. (ST of course, minorly about politicaly backstory a touch more than SW)

Open question - would a 5-10 minute piece of complicated handwaving make people happier with the series? Something about the Federation being ravaged and tired after fighting the Borg and Romulans, looking inward and starting to rebuild then the synth crisis hits, causing mass death and social unrest throughout the federation, the question of what is life in relation to societies and religions, some races leave, some choose entirely to not care about exploring the Galaxy, as after all, everywhere that is close and relevant has been found, thank you very much, and we'd much rather stay home and look after our families, and then in the midst of this, the Romulan disaster, where the federation, already low on ships, is asked by several of it's ranking officers to stop interstellar commerce and exploration to help an old enemy, causing outright inward looking within the major races of the Federation.

Would something like this, just putting a passably coherent reasoning behind the setting, help?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on February 25, 2020, 11:46:04 AM
Well, they did put out a three issue comic with background to the show, but it didn't really do much to flesh out the political problems.

The real issue here is that it just doesn't make sense. You can't tell that story within the ST universe because everything shown before now contradicts it: The Romulan Empire wouldn't need Federation help (and they sure as hell wouldn't want it). The synths thing would not have happened because of the events in The Measure of a Man TNG episode (and holo tech was shown to be capable of doing that kind of work anyway). Mars 'still on fire'!?? We never see it. Even so there are numerous other shipyards dotted about, not just the Fed as a whole, by the Sol system itself. The Fed economy is post-capitalism, so no, you don't get people living in poverty because they lost their Star Fleet commission.[1]

And so on... It's all been highlighted before.

It's a story written by people who do not understand the fictional universe they're working with.[2] At a fundamental level it is broken.

Irritatingly, you could very easily make an interesting story, involving the Romulan Empire, that chains on from the last TNG film, without having to fuck around with all the crap with synths and supernovas, still have present day political allegories, and have action and intrigue.
 1. That whole thread of Raffi being pissed with Picard, then you see the flashback where she's all "I'm with you on this, you doing the right thing, etc, etc." Then she learns she's been fired and immediately turns on Picard, who has to be sorry? What!?
 2. Idea for a Lord of the Rings sequel: The humans have tanks now, Gandalf fucked off Shadofax in favour of riding around of a dragon (who doesn't speak or anything, because dragons aren't intelligent creatures), and the gang are back from the Undying Lands and this time they're pissed! Also, magic isn't a thing, never was. We don't have magic, so it's impossible to imaging a world where it exists.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on February 25, 2020, 12:32:02 PM
Chabon's mega-post explaining the tone doesn't ring true. The big theme is basically "it's fine because we're showing areas outside the Federation", but that's only been the last two episodes. Everything before that has been on Earth. It also doesn't really work as a justification anyway - whenever there's been horrible planets-of-the-week (and of course, he's right, there have been many), the protagonists have effected - or at least attempted to effect - positive change and left the situation slightly better than it was before. Even if it went tits up, the heroes went in with good intentions and tried their best. Did that happen in the last episode? Not really, a chaotic evil organ-harvester-gangster and her security forces got massacred in a bar.

His explanation of the violence doesn't land either. I can't tell if he's referring to Icheb getting quadraspazzed on a life-glug, Seven executing a non-combatant, or both, but either way "it's art and all art has violence, because We Are All Human" is a really poor justification of putting something everyone hates into your script. Regardless, you have to appreciate him taking the time to address complaints like this, even if nothing he wrote actually clicks. We never got this kind of thing from the Discovery showrunners.


The real issue here is that it just doesn't make sense. You can't tell that story within the ST universe because everything shown before now contradicts it: The Romulan Empire wouldn't need Federation help (and they sure as hell wouldn't want it). The synths thing would not have happened because of the events in The Measure of a Man TNG episode (and holo tech was shown to be capable of doing that kind of work anyway). Mars 'still on fire'!?? We never see it. Even so there are numerous other shipyards dotted about, not just the Fed as a whole, by the Sol system itself. The Fed economy is post-capitalism, so no, you don't get people living in poverty because they lost their Star Fleet commission.

Yeah, this is one of the big problems. I have issues with where DS9 ended up going in its last couple seasons, but most of DS9's "deconstruction" of the Federation was earned because the writers obviously understood what the Federation actually was and found ways to push its limits plausibly. Star Trek: Picard can't test or deconstruct the Federation, because it doesn't seem to actually include the Federation to start with - not even a warped but recognisable verison of the Federation. It just gives us what essentially seems like a new sci-fi universe with Star Trek trappings. Picard can't save the Federation, because the Federation isn't there to save, judging by the snapshots we've gotten of Earth and the 14-year backstory.

Starting to get really confused with Troi, she's incredibly sexy but is also just naturally warm and comforting and I want her cuddle me to sleep.

Brilliantly performed by Sirtis but god knows what I should be feeling.

Her performance is wildly underrated, she actually *sounds* like an empath, and I'm not even sure how that's accomplished.

I wish the character got better use, she should have been front-and-centre in virtually every negotiation with hostile forces. The writers keep forgetting she's meant to be a linguistics expert too - I love that scene in an early episode where she's trying to teach Picard a language, he starts getting pissed off with its impossible grammatical rules and illogical spellings, and then she points out that written English spells knife with a 'k'.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on February 25, 2020, 12:38:04 PM
The Last Best Hope book really deals with the state of the Federation and how the people living in it react to the stuff going on with the Romulan supernova. I'm still early in but it's a lot more interesting than the show.

A lot of people at Utopia Planitia are pissed off at having to drop everything to help the Romulans and Geordie is shocked by their attitude.

The comic was just a waste. Really pointless.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: bgmnts on February 26, 2020, 01:38:03 AM
Data is juuuust starting to get on my tits a bit now, get an emotion chip in him asap, already halfway through season 4.

YES baby Worf, although Alexander is the shittest name for a Klingon going. It has NO HONOUR.

Also, is a white actor playing a Klingon 'blacking up'? Unsure.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Zero Gravitas on February 26, 2020, 02:17:12 AM
Also, is a white actor playing a Klingon 'blacking up'? Unsure.

Well there's Christopher Plumber...and Lloyd and...

https://kellyplanet.com/blog/learnstuff/star-trek-actors-klingon-edition/

I always assumed they just got black people to play Klingons in the same way they only hired blue people to play Andorians.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: bgmnts on February 26, 2020, 02:14:16 PM
Fuuuuuck an ENTIRE episode dedicated to Data wondering about hooman emotion.

Kill me please.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Camp Tramp on February 26, 2020, 04:12:26 PM
Data is juuuust starting to get on my tits a bit now, get an emotion chip in him asap, already halfway through season 4.

YES baby Worf, although Alexander is the shittest name for a Klingon going. It has NO HONOUR.

Also, is a white actor playing a Klingon 'blacking up'? Unsure.

Martok is white too
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on February 26, 2020, 05:34:11 PM
I think it'd be worse if it was decreed only black actors could play Klingons. It's tricky as the colouring used occurs naturally in some human races. I mean, you're not going to have this argument about a Cardassian or an Andorian.

Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on February 26, 2020, 06:01:06 PM
I think it'd be worse if it was decreed only black actors could play Klingons. It's tricky as the colouring used occurs naturally in some human races. I mean, you're not going to have this argument about a Cardassian or an Andorian.

Majority of Klingons are played by white actors. Michael Ansara (Kang), John Colicos (Kor), William Campbell (Koloth), Robert O'Reilly (Gowron), J.G. Hertzler (Martok), Charles Cooper (Kord/K'mpec), David Warner (Gorkon), Patrick Massatt (Duras). Worf and Kurn are actually the only two I can think of who are played by black actors.

I saw some guy getting very butthurt about a black Romulan somewhere on t'internet a few years back.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on February 26, 2020, 07:09:17 PM
I saw some guy getting very butthurt about a black Romulan somewhere on t'internet a few years back.

Did anyone point out the various black Vulcans to him?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: colacentral on February 26, 2020, 09:54:05 PM
I never liked Troi, and like Sirtis even less. But I do agree that there are multiple episodes where the writers use a different character for something that would make more sense for her. The one that springs to mind is Cause and Effect - surely an empath should be the lead rather than Crusher, as the character most likely to intuitively sense something's wrong. Guinan's character doesn't help much with that either, being basically another Troi. Again it would have made more sense for Troi to notice the time line had changed in Yesterday's Enterprise. Though I prefer Guinan so I'm not complaining.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: bgmnts on February 27, 2020, 12:16:02 AM
Yeah that Geordi episode didnt age well did it, creepy little cunt.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on February 27, 2020, 07:45:53 PM
Episode six:
Liked the scene with the Borg being de-borg'd and liked Hugh.

Didn't like the character moments too much, because it feels like they're doing the Discovery thing again where they skip to emotional payoffs without doing any of the necessary preliminary character work. Jurati and Rios are together now, alright then. I'm liking Raffi, but again it feels like we barely know her and we're jumping to big emotion scenes too quick.

The pacing also still feels quite plodding - the actors made the Soji and Narek scenes work relatively well but it's still a big waste of time to build towards something we've known since literally the first episode (that she's an android).

Picard's turnaround on the Borg was also funny. From "THEY'RE MONSTERS!!" to "I love the Borg. The Borg are more human... than all of us..." in 15 minutes, with literally NOTHING happening to change his mind, other than seeing a person happy at being de-borged - something he's already had done to himself, seen done to Hugh, and seen the results of in Seven of Nine.

I love the scenes where Soji can't stay awake for more than 70 seconds when calling her mother. That's how I feel watching this show sometimes!!!!!!!!!!!

Also what the fuck was up with the very end? Three security guards show up and say "put your hands up", no indication that they're about to fire, and they get murdered from behind by one of the people we're meant to be rooting for? Then it's all handwaved away? Picard even laughs about it? Total bullshit and soured me on an episode that I'd been mostly doing okay with up until that point.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Zero Gravitas on February 27, 2020, 09:37:49 PM
Maybe I'm a huge ageist but Stewart's delivery always sounds like confused pleading.

I can't think of a section I actively hated, everyone apart from Stewart and Evagora are growing on me, at least Evagora has an excuse since he's delivering absolute tripe.

Del Arco in particular was great, even if the introduction couldn't help but throw them full speed into being long lost friends.

The bones were certainly there on this one for me: Soji's plotline from picture scanning to final activation all actually gave context or information about the core mystery beyond 'ooh it's a mysery', there's a clear plan of attack and progression from the incest romulans and the process for getting there was   suitably trek for me - I'm quite interested in the crew being free of Picard, to see what they do with them, even if we're not.

Plus we find out that in all likely hood that eurotrash Sikarian aesthete piece of shit that denied voyager the magic teleporter is probably dead or borgified so that's a nice bit of headcanon.

Re-reading that it sounds like I dislike Patrick Stewart, which is fair, he gets triple blame as actor, EP and probably the strongest voice on set.


Picard's turnaround on the Borg was also funny. From "THEY'RE MONSTERS!!" to "I love the Borg. The Borg are more human... than all of us..." in 15 minutes, with literally NOTHING happening to change his mind, other than seeing a person happy at being de-borged - something he's already had done to himself, seen done to Hugh, and seen the results of in Seven of Nine.


I can only imagine they were channelling his little ship smashing rage from FC for drama and callback but didn't really think how turning that into disgust would jive with their own story when anger at 'the collective' as a hegemonizing force would have transformed better in the face of seeing what is purportedly the first instance of wide-scale adult deborgification.


Also what the fuck was up with the very end? Three security guards show up and say "put your hands up", no indication that they're about to fire, and they get murdered from behind by one of the people we're meant to be rooting for? Then it's all handwaved away? Picard even laughs about it? Total bullshit and soured me on an episode that I'd been mostly doing okay with up until that point.

It was so plainly a device to get him onboard I can forgive it, they've stabbed themselves in the foot giving him a sword in the first place.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on February 28, 2020, 12:04:11 AM
All the Picard and Hugh stuff was great. The rest was total shit.

The Queen's personal escape technology was basically an Iconian Gateway just under a different name. Even more efficient than transwarp technology. Would give the Borg a huge advantage. But nah keeps it to herself in case of emergencies.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: bgmnts on February 28, 2020, 12:14:15 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv-wmixiiMA

RLM banging these out.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Zero Gravitas on February 28, 2020, 12:23:55 AM
All the Picard and Hugh stuff was great. The rest was total shit.

The Queen's personal escape technology was basically an Iconian Gateway just under a different name. Even more efficient than transwarp technology. Would give the Borg a huge advantage. But nah keeps it to herself in case of emergencies.

A lot are picking on that point under similar terms but:

Quote from: VOY:Endgame
This hub connects with thousands of transwarp conduits with end points in all four quadrants. It allows the Collective to deploy vessels almost anywhere in the galaxy within minutes.

The real objection should be that the original device depended on being used near their home planet, or just side step the real fun of it and call it pointless backreferencing.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: bgmnts on February 28, 2020, 12:38:43 AM
Also, what's odd to me about the constant complaining about the horrid nature of the prejudiced, xenophobic, violent world of Picard is that these are all Patrick Stewart's ideas aren't they? Didn't Stewart want it to be a reflection of the current cultural and political situation that is happening now? Influenced by your Trumps and Johnsons and Brexit and the like?

Why aren't all these Trek fans just as angry about this in real life?
Maybe this will make them think, who knows.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Zero Gravitas on February 28, 2020, 01:14:26 AM
I don't think people are complaining about seeing a story that speaks to issues of a "prejudiced, xenophobic, violent world" as such, it's more centred around the execution and how suitable that execution is tonally and canonicaly in a star trek setting, both in terms if it being plainly hamfisted and gratuitous and breaks the conventions of trek.

Ronald D Moore put it well when he said he cared about being careful and consistent in his trek stories because:

Quote from: RDM https://www.lcarscom.net/amp/rdm1000118/
The STAR TREK, hardcore audience loves continuity; they love accumulating data on these ships. They love knitting together all the little pieces, and compiling lists, and doing trivia. That’s been a staple of the STAR TREK culture from the get-go. People really love the details. They love the fact that the details all add up and make one mosaic, and that the universe holds together. When you don’t give a shit, you’re telling the audience: don’t bother. Don’t bother to really learn this stuff, because it’s not going to matter next week, anything that happened this week

Using the usual conventions of flying off to a planet to rub up against these issues would be a lot more palatable, even in the face of other stylistic changes.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: bgmnts on February 28, 2020, 01:15:16 AM
Fair enough, the execution and continuity is dire.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on February 28, 2020, 01:28:56 AM
The RLM videos on this have been a godsend, if only for the solace of knowing that someone else is dreading each episode of Picard as much as I am at this point.

Also, what's odd to me about the constant complaining about the horrid nature of the prejudiced, xenophobic, violent world of Picard is that these are all Patrick Stewart's ideas aren't they? Didn't Stewart want it to be a reflection of the current cultural and political situation that is happening now? Influenced by your Trumps and Johnsons and Brexit and the like?

Why aren't all these Trek fans just as angry about this in real life?
Maybe this will make them think, who knows.

I think a few things from the awful TNG movies were his ideas too. Dune buggies.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on February 28, 2020, 11:03:49 AM
Six episodes in and we actually get to the meat of the plot. Wonderful.

Picard's hostile attitude to the Borg on The Artefact at the start doesn't make sense. Yeah, he hates the Borg, but he knows full well what happens to them when they get disconnected, and has done since "I, Borg". They're not really Borg anymore. He should surely have the same attitude to The Artefact Borg that he has to Hugh and Seven. It was just put in so he could narrate the 'revelation' that the Borg being de-assimed is good.

I'm also surprised he finds de-assimilation on 'this scale' to be so surprising, considering that one medical team could de-assim him (albeit he wasn't Borg for long), and one now obselete EMH could de-assim Seven - you know, the person he met in the very last episode. A dedicated full medical team doing nothing else being able to de-assimilate a lot of people is hardly that surprising, is it?

I also thought his PTSD aboard The Artefact was over the top. Apart from going kill crazy, he held it together no problem aboard the assimilated Ent E. Maybe without the murder boner to focus him, the horror would play on him, but I still think him nearly falling into a pit was a bit much.

A bit conflicted on Narek relying on the old 'put the good guy in a room with a trap that kills her' routine instead of shooting her. On one had he knows how dangerous she is if she 'activates' and should make sure. But on the other hand he is so upset and conflicted about doing his duty it's maybe understandable he wasn't able to shoot her in the face. He could've gotten his "sister" to do it though.


All the Picard and Hugh stuff was great. The rest was total shit.

The Queen's personal escape technology was basically an Iconian Gateway just under a different name. Even more efficient than transwarp technology. Would give the Borg a huge advantage. But nah keeps it to herself in case of emergencies.

Tbf, the Sikarians did exist prior to this episode. But having an actual militarily dangerous power have their spatial trajector is a bit problematic. And as Zero Gravitas says, should it fucking work away from their planet anyway? Although maybe you could handwave those two things against each other: Whatever the Borg had to do to make it work away from Sikaris makes it unsuitable for large scale use. But equally, it's dangerous technology for them to be able to develop.


Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: beanheadmcginty on February 28, 2020, 01:21:15 PM
Is this programme being secretly bankrolled by Big Tobacco? Barely a scene goes by without someone puffing away on sone sort of cancer stick.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on February 28, 2020, 04:04:18 PM
It's interesting seeing people still rankled by Picard's thoughtlessness. Would the scene have been any better if it ended with... I don't know, a cloaked Romulan escape pod?

The ending just was just more lazy video game writing; 'you arrived at the cube, here's your next waypoint, run down a corridor'. I find it impossible to care about anything because the characters are being pushed along by narrative convenience.

I mean... the Borg Queen and them having time travel were both invented in the same movie, co-written by Ronald D. Moore so... fuck it, like.

This show just sucks. Sweep all that canon under the rug with the rest of it.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Old Nehamkin on February 28, 2020, 04:08:20 PM
No need to use spoiler tags to discuss released episodes, guys!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on February 28, 2020, 05:23:46 PM
Watched the new RLM video in full and the part where they discussed the possibility of an alternate show where Seven would be a leading Borg expert at the Daystrom Institute utterly devastated me. God, I wish.

I wonder what the two (!) new unannounced live action series will consist of. I wish they'd just stop making Star Trek at this point.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Kelvin on February 28, 2020, 06:03:55 PM
I'm not watching this show, but the RLM coverage is wonderful. I honestly think the latest one might be the funniest thing they've done, Rich just accepting how shit it is, Mike still trying to come to terms with it.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: petrilTanaka on February 28, 2020, 06:06:56 PM
giggling away at the one line where top baldy Picard says "what you're doing is good, Hugh".

No Jean-Luc, what you've been doing is Goodhew
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: jamiefairlie on February 28, 2020, 09:35:20 PM
. I wish they'd just stop making Star Trek at this point.

I wish they'd start making Star Trek at this point, rather than these impostors.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on February 28, 2020, 10:41:08 PM
Well... I liked Hugh, and... erm... something resembling a story at last. Oh, and the Borg walls moving looked good.

What was that round of applause Raffi got after that call? How fucking insensitive would you have to be to think that was an appropriate thing to do? "Yay! You just burnt another bridge with an old friend, woo!"

They really are struggling to find a point for that Elrond guy.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on February 28, 2020, 10:49:30 PM
It's hitting it's stride, but is that stride enough? The flying visits are getting a bit samey. Hello Seven goodbye Seven. Hello Hugh goodbye Hugh. Who's next? It's Riker isn't it.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on February 28, 2020, 11:14:08 PM
I wish they'd start making Star Trek at this point, rather than these impostors.

Oh, yeah, that too. It's just that I'm terrified they'll fuck up anything they try at this point.

The foolish part of my mind still hopes that one of those unannounced show is an episodic Pike series, set on the Enterprise. Even if that miracle scenario occurs, it'll go tits up somehow. Probably will end with Number One going through a wormhole to the Delta Quadrant and becoming the first Borg queen or something.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on February 28, 2020, 11:18:33 PM
Oh, yeah, that too. It's just that I'm terrified they'll fuck up anything they try at this point.

The foolish part of my mind still hopes that one of those unannounced show is an episodic Pike series, set on the Enterprise. Even if that miracle scenario occurs, it'll go tits up somehow. Probably will end with Number One going through a wormhole to the Delta Quadrant and becoming the first Borg queen or something.

Well, at least if they make a Pike series, they might actually let Christopher Pike be Christopher Pike, Great Starfleet Captain. Instead of some bloke who just sits in the command chair letting Burnham, Saru, Section 31 or some nebulous concept of fate decide everything for him.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Sin Agog on February 28, 2020, 11:21:31 PM
Animations tend to have a better pedigree for going a bit weird and stepping away from TV trends, so I'd put the best odds on the new animation being the one good new Trek.  The '70s series is great in a languid Ambien/t kind of way- if whoever makes the new one was a fan then it should be promising.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on February 29, 2020, 12:42:01 AM
Well, I still like it. Though everything with Raffi this week was just ludicrous. Even the music under the scene where she was burning another bridge with another Starfleet buddy was seriously wrong.

Rios had nothing to do this week so was given two crap scenes, but I’m still convinced he’s not as ex-Starfleet as he claims, maybe in Starfleet Intelligence as opposed to Section 31.

But I enjoyed the rest. The fear of the Borg seemed more about his slow loss of control of his emotions and after he conquered that the old Picard returned.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: grainger on February 29, 2020, 11:34:27 AM
Why aren't all these Trek fans just as angry about this in real life?

I am. So much so that I have grimdark fatigue. I know the world has turned to shit. I don't want every single piece of fiction to throw it in our faces. Of course, some fiction should deal with the situation we're in, but there are different ways to do it.

Trek always addressed bullshit in the real world by way of contrast, showing us an alternative. It did it in its own way, not in the way most other genre fiction tends to approach it. A lot of Trek fans don't get this, a lot of Trek creators don't get this, and as a result, we get modern Trek.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: grainger on February 29, 2020, 11:35:23 AM
Also, how is this show even addressing the issues of our own times? I'm not sure it's doing it at all well even on its defenders' stated terms.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on February 29, 2020, 11:38:54 AM
Also, how is this show even addressing the issues of our own times? I'm not sure it's doing it at all well even on its defenders' stated terms.

Yeah I'm wondering this too. Stewart and other people involved have explicitly drawn Trump and Brexit links in interviews.

As if a hardcore Brexit supporter or Trump fan is going to see Picard step on a ROMULANS ONLY sign and think "oh, shit, maybe I've been wrong about everything over the last 5 years".

Not to be reductive towards the power of media and fiction, but you have to wonder how the people making this show think it's going to get a bunch of grown adults with years-long entrenched political views to reconsider everything based on Picard saying "we didn't help enough Romulan refugees!!!".
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: grainger on February 29, 2020, 11:47:28 AM
The RLM videos on this have been a godsend, if only for the solace of knowing that someone else is dreading each episode of Picard as much as I am at this point.

I think a few things from the awful TNG movies were his ideas too. Dune buggies.

Yes, there's a book (very expensive, but if you Google it, you can probably find a PDF) that includes a lot of correspondence between Stewart and the writers for the last film. He had a lot of say in the scripts, and much of the shitness is due to his misguided demands. There's a lot of "we've seen the reasonable, diplomatic Picard in the series. Fans want to see something new". That was the gist of it, anyway. It was a very disappointing read.

As an aside, the TNG films I think fundamentally suffer from Wrath-of-Khan-itis. What I mean is that, because TWOK was so lauded, nearly every Trek film since had to have a "villain" - it was an unchallengeable assumption. But the show rarely had an individual villain - the antagonist was usually a situation, idea, force of nature or political group. Having villains led to simplistic plots that were based around one crazy individual, instead of dealing with a wider issue. This even backfed into Voyager, with the Borg Queen bwa-ha-haing and saying stuff like "I'm going to get you, Janeway". And sure, movies aren't TV episodes, but then we still got things like Insurrection, which are basically high-budget TV episodes with added pantomime villains.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: grainger on February 29, 2020, 11:48:17 AM
Picard saying "we didn't help enough Romulan refugees!!!".

And then Legolas impales a bunch of people.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: grainger on February 29, 2020, 12:05:12 PM
Can't stand those Red Letter Media reviews. To let you into a secret, I'm not fan of Picard, but they routinely epically miss the point. Example: spending ages arguing that the scenes with Picard and Romulan boy (some of the only watchable scenes in the show up to that point IMO) are shit because "Picard hates children"... I mean Christ, did they even watch TNG beyond Season 1? Picard has much to hate in it, but this is not one of those things.

That's not the first time I've switched off because they latched onto some trivial point for ages that they clearly misunderstood[1].
 1. Yes I know I keep ranting about people wearing normal 21st-century suits in Picard, but I'm allowed to do that because I'm right and also awesome.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: idunnosomename on February 29, 2020, 01:04:25 PM
i love the RLM videos because Mike seems to be having a legitimate nervous breakdown. no other reason really
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Ant Farm Keyboard on February 29, 2020, 02:53:44 PM
Patrick Stewart had a hand in the plot lines as early as the third season. There's a writers room reunion as an extra on the Blu-ray set, and one writer mentions an idea he regarded as terrific about Picard living his worst nightmare, being considered as useless by the rest of the crew. And they were asked instead to write "Captain's Holiday", which was apparently a way for Stewart to get "the other woman" in his marriage on the show as adventurer Vash.

Meanwhile, it's still entertaining to see that Trekkies complain that any new Star Trek show is not "real" Star Trek, giving a laundry list of reasons, instead of, for instance, moving on. That's also the only way to know they're not dead, because the smell thing wouldn't definitely work with Trekkies.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: grainger on February 29, 2020, 03:19:23 PM
:-/
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on February 29, 2020, 06:36:49 PM
Meanwhile, it's still entertaining to see that Trekkies complain that any new Star Trek show is not "real" Star Trek, giving a laundry list of reasons, instead of, for instance, moving on.

You know football right? Well, some people find it a bit boring, so let's spruce it up with, say... putting some motor cars into it. I mean, lots of footballers like their fancy cars right? So it's a perfect match (spot the reference, eh, old fans? See it's still the same, we totally get it) and they're fast, which is exciting! So we'll add in sports cars to football matches, and well yeah, we'll have to bulldoze the existing stadiums to put in the race tracks, but it's okay because they'll keep the names, so it's all fine!! And hey, if you really don't like it, you can still watch those old football matches, they're not gone. We just need to accept that things change and move on.

<a season later>

Why is nobody watching football any more?? They must all be racist neckbeards!!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: beanheadmcginty on March 01, 2020, 10:51:13 AM
Anybody else going to the Hammersmith Apollo on March 16th? They're showing Wrath of Khan followed by a real life in person Q&A with Shatner. Cannot fucking wait.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on March 01, 2020, 11:42:04 AM
Try and get him to do a live rendition of "KHHAAAAAAAANNNN!!!!"
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on March 01, 2020, 01:03:40 PM
Anybody else going to the Hammersmith Apollo on March 16th? They're showing Wrath of Khan followed by a real life in person Q&A with Shatner. Cannot fucking wait.

It's on in Glasgow as well. Found out 2 weeks after it was announced and it was all sold out. Was so gutted. Don't know how I never heard about it. Really wanted a meet and greet ticket. Pricey though. £170 I think.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on March 01, 2020, 01:12:22 PM
Meanwhile, it's still entertaining to see that Trekkies complain that any new Star Trek show is not "real" Star Trek, giving a laundry list of reasons, instead of, for instance, moving on. That's also the only way to know they're not dead, because the smell thing wouldn't definitely work with Trekkies.

Sir, I stand utterly destroyed by your wit.

Trekkies are disgusting slobs? I haven't heard such a fine joke since the 1990s.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Sherman Krank on March 01, 2020, 02:29:14 PM
Try and get him to do a live rendition of "KHHAAAAAAAANNNN!!!!"
Yeah! He'd love that.
You should definitely do that.
I'd say no one ever does that!
He'll think you're hilarious.
This is one of these times when I'm absolutely sure it's the right thing.
I can safely say you definitely, definitely won't regret doing that.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Deanjam on March 01, 2020, 08:41:33 PM
If you ask, maybe he'll reply "I KHAAAAAAAAAAN'T"
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mobbd on March 03, 2020, 09:57:59 AM
The RLM videos on this have been a godsend, if only for the solace of knowing that someone else is dreading each episode of Picard as much as I am at this point.

Agreed. I don't always love what they actually say but I don't care. I just love those hack frauds and I increasingly depend on the laugh I'll get just from seeing their stupid incredulous faces after watching Picard. Their reviews are the only "aftershow" in the history of "aftershows" (urgh) I've ever wanted. I watch Picard and sigh with genuine sadness and think "well at least it wasn't even worse." And then Re:View serves as an hour of much-needed therapy in which I realise I'm not alone and that there are other elderly people out there with their Voyager VHS collections/Star Trek Fact Files/Complete Works of Michael and Denise Okuda to cry into.

Mike is definitely having a breakdown though. Poor bastard.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mobbd on March 03, 2020, 10:06:38 AM
Episode six:
Liked the scene with the Borg being de-borg'd and liked Hugh.

The pacing also still feels quite plodding - the actors made the Soji and Narek scenes work relatively well but it's still a big waste of time to build towards something we've known since literally the first episode (that she's an android).


The scene with Hugh getting Picard to chill after his Nam Flashbacks and the drones stop him from falling off the mezzanine. I genuinely liked that moment and it was my favey bit of this shitty series. Del Arco was very good and it just felt nice to see him again, Picard's sentiments towards him matching those of the viewer and there being absolutely no "you betrayed us/forgot about me" shit from Hugh (which you'd expect from this series).

I can't help think that the niceness of seeing Hugh is a fondness for the actor as well as the character, so it's a shame they didn't/couldn't get the original Maddox actor as well. Mike Stoklasa is probably right that he just doesn't look enough like a troubled genius for new Trek to cast.

I also agree with Mike's point that Seven really should be working at the Daystrom Institute or something and not bopping around as a space vigilante. I mean, jeez, she's a celebrity in this world and a scientist and a holder of extremely privileged knowledge. I'd have been happier to have Jeri Ryan in the main cast, playing the Alison Pill role.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on March 03, 2020, 08:44:29 PM
More answers from Chabon.

http://blog.trekcore.com/2020/03/michael-chabon-star-trek-picard-fan-questions/
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on March 03, 2020, 08:49:42 PM
Ah Jaysus, his first answer: "Your question is dumb and wrong." Fuck off away from my favourite IP, you fucking cuntybollocks.

Seven / Troi Doppelganger lesbian sexytime confirmed.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on March 03, 2020, 09:55:17 PM
Quote
The Federation is still very much alive and well and home to trillions (quadrillions?) of safe, housed, fed, educated citizens with the potential to lead fulfilling lives.

Somebody probably should have told Raffi that.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on March 03, 2020, 10:16:51 PM
Wow... those are exactly the sort of answers I'd expect from an insecure, hack writer who's just working for a pay cheque. Weird.

'Yeah we couldn't reference the Dominion War even though it would justify pretty much every creative decision we made so instead we based the story on an incidental moment nobody liked from a movie 10 years ago'

'The Federation isn't gone it's just full of arseholes in order to justify the violence I want to visit upon the characters'

'Television is exactly what CBS says it is'

Also, he looks like the Tuvix of Inside No. 9.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on March 03, 2020, 10:25:45 PM
Wow, properly shit answer on the first question. He's really hanging onto those specially selected Sisko quotes, and yet again he (intentionally?) misunderstands the question being asked and answers an imaginary one instead. We know planets outside Federation space can be horrible, people aren't asking "why is there any darkness in the setting at all", people are asking why the tone of the entire show doesn't resemble any previous Star Trek series - from the way 24th Century humans behave to the way that nothing positive seems to come of anyone's actions so far.

We've had two seemingly self-contained episodes in Absolute Candor and Stardust City Rag and in both cases, the writers revealed they can't tell a satisfying story in 45 minutes, they need to have people graphically killed on-screen every time for some reason, and neither episode had a Star-Trek-esque exploration of a theme or moral debate. Both total wastes of time, especially Stardust City Rag which was just pointlessly depressing for absolutely no reason, in service of absolutely no kind of message or theme.

Fuck, you don't even need to have an exploration of a moral theme on a high-concept planet-of-nazis or anything. You can just have a weird space ray cause some Twilight Zone shit to happen where everyone loses their memory or starts de-evolving or turns into frogs or whatever, and we haven't even had that. Even Discovery could manage that.

Quote
Q: Do you think an episodic [traditional-style] Star Trek series is in the future?

CHABON: The market determines which literary forms predominate. That has always been true, and not just on TV. When big-circulation magazines paid good money for short stories, our best writers revolutionized the form. In Germany, magazines wanted novellas; Thomas Mann wrote some of the best ever.

Short answer: when there is perceived demand for episodic TV, episodic Trek will return, though likely not in quite the same way.

Well I'm demanding it now. Bring it back you bastards. Though who knows what "likely not in quite the same way" means. Probably "likely not any good" at this rate.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on March 03, 2020, 10:54:43 PM
Well I'm demanding it now. Bring it back you bastards. Though who knows what "likely not in quite the same way" means. Probably "likely not any good" at this rate.

I was going to make some comment about 'perceived demand for episodic television' not being the same thing as 'actual demand for episodic Star Trek, from Star Trek fans', but my evidence that the latter exists is anecdotal. I haven't done any major surveys or anything.

Although it totally fucking exists.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: grainger on March 03, 2020, 11:12:44 PM
Once again, I give my usual caveat that DS9 was a great show. But... I never liked where it went with Trek. I don't want to see the Federation consumed by a war[1].

But a lot of fans on the Internet have spent years going on about how DS9 is the "realistic" version of Trek, and now, perhaps inevitably, it's being used as a justification for turning the entire Trekverse into grimdark bullshit[2].
 1. I'm not saying the Federation couldn't get involved in a war, just that I never enjoyed watching a Trek show focus on this.
 2. Bullshit that isn't remotely consistent even with DS9, granted, but still, it's "realistic".
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: grainger on March 03, 2020, 11:17:44 PM
I actually agree with his answer on Stardates, I have to admit (that they're "uninformative information"). Stardates are bullshit.

Trek-based non-fiction books, magazines, DVD etras etc. always seemed to emphasise the Stardate something took place on, like it means anything and like it's not very boring. They were just a device in the 60s to make the show seem futuristic. Did they impress 60s audiences? I don't know.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: bgmnts on March 03, 2020, 11:23:29 PM
The idea of a 'realistic' presentation of something 350 years into the future is laughable.

It's just that people cannot possibly imagine an idyllic universe, they can only imagine war and hatred. Its horrible now so it would obviously be exactly the same in the future.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on March 03, 2020, 11:30:26 PM
I was going to make some comment about 'perceived demand for episodic television' not being the same thing as 'actual demand for episodic Star Trek, from Star Trek fans', but my evidence that the latter exists is anecdotal. I haven't done any major surveys or anything.

Although it totally fucking exists.

It's got to becoming back into fashion soon, surely. People must be sick of low quality serialised shit that drags you along for episode after episode and then just fizzles into piss.

Star Trek and the Twilight Zone should really have been two franchises spearheading a renewed interest in episodic TV, but Star Trek has by-and-large abandoned it and the new Twilight Zone is shit (reportedly - I haven't seen any of it yet).

Once again, I give my usual caveat that DS9 was a great show. But... I never liked where it went with Trek. I don't want to see the Federation consumed by a war. I'm not saying the Federation couldn't get involved in a war, just that I never enjoyed watching a Trek show focus on this.

Agreed although I think the idea of the Federation dealing with a large-scale war is an interesting concept for a show, but DS9 is scuppered by three things, IMO:
- The writers were obsessed with seeing how "dark" they could go. A lot of stuff Ira Steven Behr came out with about "compromised" or "tainted" heroes/Federation or whatever makes me think that the writers just got giddy with being able to do things TNG couldn't, and they took it off in a really stupid direction towards the end.

- The Dominion suck. Jeffrey Coombs is a good actor but Weyoun is tedious and the Founders are probably one of the most boring recurring antagonists in all of Star Trek. The Jem'Hadar hint at being interesting in that there might be a way to save them from their addiction and free them from the shackles of the Dominion, but nothing ever comes of it. The Cardassia-Bajor conflict is literally about a hundred times more interesting than anything involving the Dominion. In fact, the Cardassian stuff was always more convincingly "dark and edgy" to me because I could actually get invested in it. "Duet" is brilliant, sad and horrifying. Meanwhile, when Section 31 is plotting genocide against the Dominion and we're told that abstract billions of people across the galaxy are dying, it's all a bit "yeah alright mate".

- Probably the least controversial point: the spiritual stuff about the Pah-Wraiths towards the end and Sisko going fucking nuts is a fat load of shit that basically pisses all over the series and pushes the already dumb Dominion War arc into truly jawdroppingly shite territory.

Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on March 04, 2020, 12:27:03 AM
I actually agree with his answer on Stardates, I have to admit (that they're "uninformative information"). Stardates are bullshit.

Nah, they're good. Great for the nerds to obsess over. Little details of continuity to scribble down in their jotters.

Let the nerds have their fun!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on March 04, 2020, 04:18:05 AM
I mean... a more thoughtful person might ask what purpose Stardates serve given that they obviously don't convey the literal date things took place on. Maybe they're to establish the tone of the show, Mike?

Imagine thinking you're the first to notice that Star Trek is campy nonsense. Jesus.

Also DS9 is good and completely earns its melodrama.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mobbd on March 04, 2020, 09:18:47 AM
Wow, properly shit answer on the first question.

It's not so much the content as the tone. He clearly feels under siege by fans who don't like what he's doing to something they care about. He thinks he's morally justified in being a rude arsehole to anyone who questions his competance and vision.

The "I've answered this elsewhere and won't repeat it" attitude. We're not looking elsewhere! Speak to the people who turned up.

I'm done. I've deleted my Prime account (Picard was the only thing I watched with it) and I'll ignore the rest of this pap. Life is too short.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on March 04, 2020, 02:17:41 PM
I was going to make some comment about 'perceived demand for episodic television' not being the same thing as 'actual demand for episodic Star Trek, from Star Trek fans', but my evidence that the latter exists is anecdotal. I haven't done any major surveys or anything.

Although it totally fucking exists.

Also anecdotal, but I got my parents (who used to be big Trekkies but never got into Discovery and are sort of "half watching it while doing something else" into Picard) watching the Orville and it's the first time in forever I've seen them fully engaged with what's on the screen, sometimes literally on the edge of their seats as they're just so interested and engaged, commenting and laughing... it's... nice.  Is this just us all being old farts pining for how TV used to be "in our day" before everything got Netflixified or what?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on March 04, 2020, 02:26:11 PM
He clearly feels under siege by fans who don't like what he's doing to something they care about. He thinks he's morally justified in being a rude arsehole to anyone who questions his competance and vision.

Something I found interesting is that he mentioned in a previous Q&A when asked about depicting graphic violence on-screen that several writers were against it while several were for. He probably intended that to be a tantalising behind-the-scenes glimpse at the incredible amount of passion that goes into the show, but in actuality he made it sound more like everything is written by committee which is why everything turns out shit and disjointed with no coherent sense of identity.

It's got me wondering exactly what the writing process is. The one person who wants to make a traditional Star Trek show in the room suggests something about visiting a planet of Romulan refugees, and then someone shouts "WARRIOR NUNS" and another person shouts "PICARD ADOPTS A NINJA", then someone else shouts "NINJA BEHEADING" and yet another person yells "MORE FLASHBACKS" and everything gets written down until the end result is completely beyond rescue.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: TwinPeaks on March 04, 2020, 05:23:06 PM
Caught up on it. It's alright. It doesn't feel like a huge wasted opportunity and I don't hate the crew like I thought I would. Sort of want to fall asleep any time the creepy English Romulan is on screen though. Also I hope I don't have to hear Picard do his 'years ago I had a dear friend called Data and he had a daughter and I couldn't save her but he has another daughter..." etc thing anymore. I know the plot, please just get on with it aghghh.

The boss woman that Seven of Nine was after looked EXACTLY like Troi. What are the chances of that? Did they even realise when they cast her?

Just remembered how ridiculous it was that the Legolas guy stayed on the Borg cube. Did I miss something? Why did he need to stay and fight when Picard was in no danger at that point?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Endicott on March 04, 2020, 05:54:28 PM
It did seem daft, but then Hugh did say that he needed some time to pack up and hide the transport room, so I guess it was to help prevent the other Romulans just following Picard through the transporter thingy. I suppose it will allow the crew a chance to rescue the elf before meeting up with Picard.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: TwinPeaks on March 04, 2020, 06:43:14 PM
Ahh that's fair enough then, missed him saying that. I saw the portal close after Picard and just didn't think they'd be able to open it again.
At least elf man was useful for something, poor lad's always just awkwardly standing at the back of the ship
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Dannyhood91 on March 04, 2020, 07:27:20 PM
7 of 9 more like 7 of FINE lol
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Edley on March 05, 2020, 12:56:52 PM
Spoilers for this week's...

Fans of Icheb's fate will love Hugh getting knifed in the neck and Riker and Troi's son dying of a curable illness. Apologies to anyone who thought Picard and Hugh's scenes together last week were anything but a precursor to more misery.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on March 05, 2020, 01:22:34 PM
Spoilers for this week's...

Fans of Icheb's fate will love Hugh getting knifed in the neck and Riker and Troi's son dying of a curable illness. Apologies to anyone who thought Picard and Hugh's scenes together last week were anything but a precursor to more misery.
Yeah this show is beyond stupid at times.

No doubt Troi, Riker and Kestra(Nice touch on naming her after Deanna's dead sister) will die in a pizza making accident by the end of the series. After all killing of characters they've brought back seems all the writers are capable of doing.

The reason for Thaddeus's death was one of the most idiotic things I've ever heard of.


I fucking HATE Star Trek as it is now. Proper Trek ended in 2005 as far as I'm concerned. Discovery is atrocious and this isn't much better. Most of the scenes on Nepenthe were the best thing about this show so far and probably the best it will be.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Edley on March 05, 2020, 07:52:32 PM
Picard, four long episodes ago: "I'm not in the habit of consulting lawyers before I do what needs to be done."

Troi: "Our son died cos the cure was illegal, lol."
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on March 05, 2020, 08:18:18 PM
Frakes and Sirtis brought a lot with their performances there. On the other hand, Patrick Stewart's performance is honestly weak, he's siphoning the life out of every other scene and he doesn't feel like Picard at all.

The overall plot is still a meandering boring mess but Rios, Raffi and Jurati are all played by good actors giving solid performances. Since a second season has already been unwisely commissioned, I just hope it focuses more on them and their ship, with a hopefully much better plot.

Borg Cube plot is still a mess. Can anyone explain what's actually happening? If it's been explained, I've missed it - who's in charge of the Cube? The Romulan government? Where are they based if Romulus exploded? If the Romulan Star Empire exists, why are there refugees everywhere? Why are they de-borging people? Why do the ex-Borg still live aboard the Cube? Why do the Even More Secret Than Tal Shiar group have free reign to kill the ex Borg?

The opening made me fucking howl with laughter. This is what happens if we allow synthetics. SCREAMING, PEOPLE'S FACES RIPPING OFF, CITIES CRUMBLING, EARTH EXPLODES
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on March 05, 2020, 08:37:35 PM
The tempo of this show is ridiculous. We've gone from a heist, to a chase to a... relaxing catch-up with friends over pizza? The writers are desperate to not put any story in this story.

There'll be one violent fight sequence to trick you into thinking this is a show.

The cheek of boasting about a serialised format, every episode of Picard is the fucking same! Flashback, exposition, fight sequence, pointless aside, cliffhanger. 'Market demand' my arsehole.

I know people like Troi and Riker but like... it's all the same plodding fan service. At least someone got a "happy" ending. What an artless way of bringing them into the story, though - Picard just beams to their house.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on March 05, 2020, 08:44:43 PM
But what an artless way of bringing them into the story - Picard just beams to their house.

I loved (ie hated) the attempt to connect them to the main story by having their son die because synths were banned. Outstanding.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on March 05, 2020, 08:55:44 PM
KURTZMAN: So then Captain Picard walks through a space window! And then he bumps into WILL RIKER! And he's being chased by a Sexy Romulan Spy so he needs Riker's help...

CHABON: Humans are motivated by rational self-interest, the man Riker would simply kill Picard for the material value contained in his body.

KURTZMAN: No, no no, see because one time Riker's son had a brain disease that only DATA'S BRAIN could fix! So he likes Data's daughter now!

CHABON: Acceptable
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on March 05, 2020, 11:11:28 PM
It is all over the place this episode. The death of Hugh was pointless but I suppose they don't want to make reactivating the cube and help save the day easy. though in the trailer for next episode Seven is back so she can step into Hugh's spot, I suppose. The reason Riker and Troi let their kid die is farcical. "It's against the law? Oh well, sorry Thad."

The show is even making jokes about itself. Picard goes on to Riker about all the drama on the ship he's hired among the crew.

Also had a good laugh at Rios saying there was something just at the edge of sensor range of his ship. Then you cut to an outside view and Narek is literally three car lengths behind the Sirena.

The episode should have been about Soji accepting Picard and trusting him, but having Riker and Troi back pushed the whole thing out of balance. It's nice to see Riker and Troi again, but honestly the show would have been better without them. You could have done the whole episode on the Sirena set while they're trying to escape the Romulan.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: beanheadmcginty on March 06, 2020, 12:42:28 PM
How did the little girl find the planet so quickly? I couldn't understand what she said when she held up her phone so put the subtitles on and it was something about "Captain Crandall". Who's that? Some sort of future Ask Jeeves?
Overall enjoyed the chatty bits but completely switch off as soon as an action scene begins.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on March 06, 2020, 08:52:57 PM
The first couple of Riker & Troi scenes made me nearly cry. The fact any bit of properly done nostalgia with the old characters really pulls on the strings like that really hits home how badly they fucked the IP.

Other than that, in addition to the already discussed aspects of them literally killing all the positivity from the last episode by executing all the liberated Borg and Hugh, and giving Riker & Troi a dead son.:

Oh, who now absolutely is a Vulcan and not a Romulan, basically mind raped Jurati as per fan theory, just to make her swallow a tracking device (there have to be better ways to do this) and become an unreliable 'inside man'. Highly fucking logical and moral work there Commodore. They just can't leave the fucking Vulcans alone, can they? Why don't we just go ahead and have Vulcan be taken over by "Logic Extremists" declare war on the rest of the Federation (cos that's somehow logical) and all get killed by humans in a great big righteous green bloodbath, after which they erect a great big statue of Jonathan Archer pissing on a Vulcan's head in the middle ShiKahr city? That's obviously where all the showrunners except Manny Coto have wanted to go since Enterprise. Watch the breakup of Federation we're going to see the results of in Disco S3 be the Vulcans' fault. Just watch.

And possible tension as Rios incorrectly assumes the tracking device is on Raffi? Can't have that for more than two minutes, can we?

How did the little girl find the planet so quickly? I couldn't understand what she said when she held up her phone so put the subtitles on and it was something about "Captain Crandall". Who's that? Some sort of future Ask Jeeves?
Overall enjoyed the chatty bits but completely switch off as soon as an action scene begins.

Earlier in the conversation she mentioned Crandall as an independent captain who makes claims about all the placed he's been in the galaxy, claims Troi and Riker find dubious. So basically I read it as she texted a crusty old sailor who's possibly a huge Walter Mitty. It's like the bloke who owns the old Romulan Bird of Prey from episode 4. They're touching at things and people in the greater universe outside the immediate story in a way that kind of doesn't matter, unless they revisit these things later.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: grainger on March 06, 2020, 11:48:15 PM

The show is even making jokes about itself. Picard goes on to Riker about all the drama on the ship he's hired among the crew.

I didn't get this vibe during the episode, but on paper (screen), it reads like a dig at the (alleged) lack of conflict[1] in TNG.

If that's what they meant, then they can truly GTF. They haven't earned the right to even lick TNGs's boots yet, let alone diss it.
 1. Of course, there was conflict - plenty of it - but it was with exterior characters and organisations, not the usual unproffesional melodrama in shows. It's an old, old criticism of TNG, even from within its own writing ranks, and it's utterly untrue.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: grainger on March 06, 2020, 11:57:13 PM
I actually enjoyed it this week. I can live without the violent scenes, which are dogshit[1], and the direction and lack of imagination (normal modern sunglasses, modern computer "swipe" interfaces but in the air), but the TNG reunion scenes were lovely, and I didn't even mind the grimdark "our child died" thread, as it wasn't played out for wretchedness. As such there was enough goodwill that I found myself warming to the whole show.

That said, if Seven is back next week, and if we're back to bullshit as usual[2], I will just as quickly go off it again.

And the less they show of Earth, making it look like a pit of misery, the less I'm going to be pissed off.

And Cumberbatch Romulan is still totally annoying, and a lame antagonist.

And yes, boo to Hugh's fate, but I'm so used to ST shows and movies blowing shit up and killing people for the sake of it, I'm starting not to give a shit about any of it, to be honest. Everyone (and every ship and planet) in the Trek universe is essentially expendable, on borrowed time, and not in a way that adds tension, but in a way that makes me shut off caring about any of it.
 1. I mean, I like swordfighting in real life, but this ninja bollocks is well, bollocks.
 2. Although Troi's talk with Picard suggests we've turned a corner character-wise and possibly plot-wise
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on March 06, 2020, 11:59:11 PM
And Cumberbatch Romulan is still totally annoying, and a lame antagonist.

He'll turn because he wants that sweet android pussy.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: avatarlessnessophilia on March 07, 2020, 04:27:58 PM
I've been watching it because it had seemed to start well, and I started thinking I was guilty of watching it too passively before realising it was drifting about quite a bit inconsequentially like The Mandalorian. I don't know the lore well having been more Marvel and Star Wars as a kid so I'd try to engage as if I could recognise its story's purpose from life. I'm not that bothered by episodic TV anyway but something about the streaming/ box set way of doing things seems to tie in with why these shows come apart. Is internet addiction and smartphone abuse, unadmitted or otherwise, wrecking writers' sense of what a focused story is? Does the money that Netflix and Amazon have create false confidence that throwing money at a project will mean it'll be great? As I'm slowly recovering from internet addiciton myself I don't know where writers' lack of focus ends and mine begins.

But I read the Chabon interview and couldn't imagine Chibnall or maybe Abrams/ Johnson talking in a similar way. Chibnall seems totally unsuited to writing whatever genre Doctor Who is - the prattish am-dram appearance of it looks worse at the moment than it has for years. Chabon seems to be working in what he considers his element - he's more recogniseably a fan - but his political makeup is different than his predecessors. His aggression in the interview that he maybe is passing off as realism makes me think of residual Blairites still thinking regaining control is Labour's and Britain's future despite being divorced from the reality of the people who reject them. I can see there's a conflict in all these series that is a legitimate wish to both expand the universes but retain some continuity. When Picard is 'recognisably Star Trek' is when it seems its weakest, down to sound and visual effects and makeup. To have the portrayal of/ attitude toward the Federation shift and potentially alienating Trekkers in the process seems something that inevitably will happen; just that Chabon is Keir Starmer and not RL-B (or whoever). Gene Roddenberry couldn't have been the same person if born forty years later and his idealism is innaccesible to - us. Picard is vaguely dark and incoherent and Doctor Who is the mess it is and Star Wars petered out similarly because we are scrabbling about looking for focus and a foothold with not much sight of how to come about them.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Poobum on March 07, 2020, 05:25:17 PM
Well it's not as bad as Enterprise, that had an episode that was so badly conceived and written that it came out pro genocide. But the whole synthetic life angle is so boring. Treating synthetic life as a monolithic group is as stupid if not more so than grouping organic life as a monolithic group. No depth, no analysis, not a single point has been made, let alone examined. Should do a show on why organic life is bad, it consumes resources just to self replicate, vile stuff. Are we supposed to just go "synthetic life, wooo. Is dem people?" I've seen Blade Runner thanks.

Fucking pilot guy and his cigar. I'm a writer I know all the clichés.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on March 08, 2020, 12:20:06 AM
When Picard is 'recognisably Star Trek' is when it seems its weakest, down to sound and visual effects and makeup. To have the portrayal of/ attitude toward the Federation shift and potentially alienating Trekkers in the process seems something that inevitably will happen.

That the show need to change is such a bogus argument, always thrown up when terrible writing starts to ruin a franchise.

Yes, details may and do change as time goes by. But some things can not change without removing the core of the show. So what is the core of Star Trek? That it's set in space? Well there are plenty of other shows set there. B5, Farscape, BSG, etc. etc. but they are not Trek. Is it exploring other planets? Well, nope, SG1 and Space 1999 did that. Still not Trek.

So what is it? Well, I think most the fans would tell you about the optimistic vision of the future. Even at it's darkest, Star Trek always showed people attempting to live up to that ideal. We all know it. Now what happens when you remove that? You lose the core of the show, it's no longer Star Trek. Yes, that pisses off the fans, no shit! They're now seeing a beloved name plastered on to substandard product that has nothing to do with the show. But is it even attracting new fans for that cost? The excuse for needing to change? The evidence suggest no. What a waste.


Quote
Gene Roddenberry couldn't have been the same person if born forty years later and his idealism is innaccesible to - us. Picard is vaguely dark and incoherent and Doctor Who is the mess it is and Star Wars petered out similarly because we are scrabbling about looking for focus and a foothold with not much sight of how to come about them.

Star Wars failed because of disastrously bad planning and writing. When a show that had half a clue turned up, The Mandalorian, people flocked to it.

But where does this idea come from, that we can't have utopian visions in popular culture? If you've ever been to a Trek convention, sure seems to be lots of people, many born after the core shows aired, who are welcoming to that idea. And judging by the long term (lack of) success of the grim-dark shows out there, not many of the wider population care for that.

Seems to me, to be a class issue. After all, who's up there in production companies picking these shows to be made? Not exactly the 99% is it? Seems like those people, who are quiet comfortable, have bought into that whole 'end of history' vibe since the end of the 80s. What's more, they really don't want things to change (would you, if the systems has worked so well for you?). So we get show after show where society doesn't change, we just get slightly shinier iPods, and well, the world isn't actually a nice place overall, because, at it's core, neo-liberalism isn't a nice way to run society. But some people, not all of them rich, desperately dream of it lasting forever, scared of any alternative.

Somewhat related:
(https://i.postimg.cc/T2BTfZds/steve-bell-200131-NUJ230-BARCLAYDREAMS.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on March 08, 2020, 01:23:31 AM
Late to it but just saw it. That was lovely (everything with the Rikers, or is it Trois). So full of warmth. And the kid was great, I'm trying to think who she reminds me of and can only think of the kid version of Sia from her music videos (le shrug)

Shame about Hugh. But I saw spoilers that someone "beloved from TNG" would die THANKS GOOGLE NOW, and was thinking it'd be some depressing shit with one of the Rikers.  I'm glad it was Hugh that died. Sorry Hugh.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on March 08, 2020, 02:36:47 AM
Criticism of the day..

Soji: *tilts head Data style for LITERALLY THE FIRST TIME SHE'S EVER DONE IT*

Riker: Yeah that's Data's daughter alright, I'd recognise that head tilt anywhere

SHE JUST DID IT ONCE NOW FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on March 08, 2020, 10:49:11 AM
To be fair she had just been 'activated', but it was shit.

Bet she never does the head tilt again as well.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on March 12, 2020, 03:28:27 PM
Load of shite again.

The fucking accents on the Rios holograms. Yawn fest on the Borg Cube. Why did they bother making g this shite?

Chabon said the only reason they put Seven in the show is because something came up when they were writing it that made sense for her to appear. Likewise with the Riker's. Something that only they would fit. Yet to see it.

I wonder what kind of AI baddie Lower Decks and the other 4+ shows will have in them. Kurtzman Trek belongs in the alt universe like the Abrams films. Or better yet just erased from existence.

As ropey as the Enterprise finale was I really wish that had just been the end of Trek.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: olliebean on March 12, 2020, 08:06:43 PM
Thought there might have been some sort of narrative about how the Federation essentially treats the Synths as slaves, so no wonder they fucking kicked off. But no, it looks like they're just going with an "AI will inevitably become evil" storyline. Yawn.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Piggyoioi on March 12, 2020, 09:34:52 PM
watching star trek: picard has easily become the worst part of my week, its like watching a friend you loved be consistently curb stomped untill you no longer recognise their face.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on March 12, 2020, 09:46:11 PM
Fuck, totally forgot this was on. That's a good sign.

Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on March 13, 2020, 12:55:03 AM
How many episodes are left? Going to slog out the season, then never again bother.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on March 13, 2020, 01:09:19 AM
How many episodes are left? Going to slog out the season, then never again bother.

2 more.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on March 13, 2020, 09:34:44 AM
Fucking hell, are they going to literally Deus ex Machina their way to a conclusion?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on March 13, 2020, 08:12:32 PM
Boring episode. The show is seriously such a slog to get through every week at this point. Seven came back for virtually no reason, and goes against literally everything she believes in with almost no protest and no apparent consequences.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cortez the Surfer on March 13, 2020, 08:32:51 PM
Thought there might have been some sort of narrative about how the Federation essentially treats the Synths as slaves, so no wonder they fucking kicked off. But no, it looks like they're just going with an "AI will inevitably become evil" storyline. Yawn.
Not sure that's what's going on. In that last episode they seemed to be inferring that the synths are just a trigger and when they reach a certain level of sophistication and there's x amount of them, a bunch of super powerful beings show up and effectively reset that bit of the universe by exterminating all the sentient life.

Which is of course litigiously similar to the underlying plot from the Mass Effect games.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on March 13, 2020, 09:06:43 PM
I'm so uncomfortable with the online reaction to Seven becoming a Borg Queen. It's not 'awesome' or 'cool', it's awful. A slave becoming a slaver. Everyone's 'yassss Queen, slay!'... fuck me.

What is this fucking show?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: beanheadmcginty on March 13, 2020, 09:07:10 PM
Worst episode of the series for me. Could not give a single toss about anything that happened in it.
Also, does this mean that captain beardy cigar is actually closely connected to the android plot purely coincidentally?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on March 13, 2020, 09:49:58 PM
I'm so uncomfortable with the online reaction to Seven becoming a Borg Queen. It's not 'awesome' or 'cool', it's awful. A slave becoming a slaver. Everyone's 'yassss Queen, slay!'... fuck me.

What is this fucking show?

Unbelievable right? The ethical ramifications of what she attempted to do were fucking massive and they were basically glossed over. I can't believe their treatment of Seven in this show has been to have her murder an unarmed person and then enslave an entire cube of Borg, and we're meant to cheer at both.

Worst episode of the series for me. Could not give a single toss about anything that happened in it.
Also, does this mean that captain beardy cigar is actually closely connected to the android plot purely coincidentally?

Yep, the random guy they hired just because he was Raffi's mate turns out to not only have met one of the ultra-rare androids, but also be connected to her in a way that directly relates to the Epic Tragedy that defined his entire life.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on March 13, 2020, 10:15:09 PM
Worst episode of the series for me. Could not give a single toss about anything that happened in it.
Also, does this mean that captain beardy cigar is actually closely connected to the android plot purely coincidentally?

Yeah, we're into Star Wars level of inbreeding there. Everyone has to be related to something or someone else that we've already seen or they have no right to exist.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on March 13, 2020, 10:19:59 PM
I'm beginning to think Michael Chabon might some kind of moron.

Picard desperately wants to be modern and edgy and like... OK, sure, if you insist; but nobody seems to want to do the intellectual lifting to explain why everything is so shitty all of a sudden. The story just takes place in a generic amoral sci-fi reality.

Some people are just 'poor' now, right? Because that's a dramatic concept people can understand. No authority exists to deprive them of their needs and no there's meaningful way to hoard any resource, but people are just abstractly poor. So here's a show that claims to be an indictment of contemporary politics but refuses to make any accusation against any particular target. Sinister, or merely very stupid?

Characters act arbitrarily, without concern for the consequences of their actions because the show doesn't admit moral thinking into its philosophy. People are shitty and bad, heroic actions transcend mortal comprehension and individual personalities are just thin shells wrapped around manifest destiny. Now is that also just because it's really easy to write bad action stories? Or is it a deliberately corporate-y story form?

I don't know, just wanking about a naff show with some old fuck in it.

Edit: Or option 3, this is like... obviously just Mass Effect fan fiction.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on March 13, 2020, 10:41:35 PM
Also, is Soji still made from Data now or not?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on March 13, 2020, 10:46:16 PM
There's like a race of Sojis on this planet we're going to. Maddox made them all. Who knows anymore.

Also did anyone else absolutely howl at "black flag directive"? Rios (a man who, let's remember, was introduced by pouring alcohol on a bleeding shrapnel wound) was on a ship that received a BLACK FLAG DIRECTIVE from STARFLEET SECURITY telling them to SHOOT TWO PEOPLE or their SHIP WOULD BE BLOWN UP.

I mean it's fucking terrible. It's atrocious. I feel bad for the poor bastard Memory Alpha editor who's going to have to make the page for "Black Flag Directive" and try to work in some kind of explanation.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on March 13, 2020, 10:49:37 PM
Also did anyone else absolutely howl at "black flag directive"? Rios (a man who, let's remember, was introduced by pouring alcohol on a bleeding shrapnel wound) was on a ship that received a BLACK FLAG DIRECTIVE from STARFLEET SECURITY telling them to SHOOT TWO PEOPLE or their SHIP WOULD BE BLOWN UP.

Do you know what the worst part is? That didn't register with me. Such is the level of desecration of Starfleet that's gone on, I'm just used to it.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on March 13, 2020, 10:52:18 PM
They're all so horny for violence aren't they? They can't get enough of fucking secret orders and torture and murdering people it just gets them ROCK FUCKING HARD. Imagine watching any Star Trek and going: "Ah yes, a police state is what this is!" Idiots.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: grainger on March 13, 2020, 11:10:39 PM
On a more basic level, the set design is terrible. The space prat's ship consists of a vast, empty, hangar-like room with the bridge console and an unspecified number of chairs at one end, because...? Then there are other rooms which are pitch dark with super-bright pinpoint lights all over the walls.

Overall, it just doesn't feel like a place I can understand on any level. Not only isn't it a ship I'd like to be on, it's not a ship I can possibly imagine being on, as there's nothing to imagine.

This is made worse because I don't even know what the ship looks like on the outside. I mean, I don't need a ST: TMP-speed approach to the ship, but at least let us get a decent look at it every episode. If it gets into a battle, I swear I won't know which ship it is.

The beardy guy's ship just isn't a space anyone would sensibly design. It feels like it exists only in cyberspace. So when the show wants to do weird or disconcerting, it has nowhere to go, because the baseline ship - not weird for any plot or thematic reason - is totally out there.

Contrast with TNG or TOS, where the ship had a sense or personality that we got right from the opening shot. We only saw a fraction of the ship's interior, but the rooms we did see made sense. Or even something like Farscape where again, the interiors made sense and the exterior was instantly recognisable. Or any number of other SF shows or movies.

How large is the ship? How powerful? What are its main capabilities? Who cares, because they the showrunners will just make it do whatever it needs to do in whatever episode it does some shenanigans. The crew can't impress us with their abilities, getting more than they ought to out of the ship, because the ship can and will magically do whatever is needed in any given scene.

And that's also a problem with the entire show. Most of them can pull whatever abilities are needed out of the hat in any scene, for the sake of cool. So they can never impress us, because they have no constraints to rise above.

And to add to the vaping, we get vinyl hipsters too. Maybe that's the reason the ancients are going to come back and kill everyone.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: grainger on March 13, 2020, 11:13:33 PM
They're all so horny for violence aren't they? They can't get enough of fucking secret orders and torture and murdering people it just gets them ROCK FUCKING HARD. Imagine watching any Star Trek and going: "Ah yes, a police state is what this is!" Idiots.

It's all the Section whatever they were called from DS9 isn't it? They've taken the darkest bits from past Trek and run with it, probably because those bits are most like other contemporary drama.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: grainger on March 13, 2020, 11:17:01 PM

So here's a show that claims to be an indictment of contemporary politics but refuses to make any accusation against any particular target.


Yes, I'm not sure what the allegory even is here. How does any of this relate, in any way, to our world? Apart from "things are less nice than they used to be". I know Picard was all "you've got to be optimistic" this week... is that it? Is that the show's point? It took all this time to say that?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on March 13, 2020, 11:21:03 PM
It's all the Section whatever they were called from DS9 isn't it? They've taken the darkest bits from past Trek and run with it, probably because those bits are most like other contemporary drama.

Section 31. I hated Section 31 Fanbois from day fucking one, and now it looks like they're in charge. And there's the excuses: Violence was in Star Trek before, so it's okay to have it everywhere now. We're just being realistic. Humans are naturally aggressive creatures anyway blah blah blah.

Maybe the final standoff will involve Picard throwing his excrement at Oh, Narissa, whoever because he's a human, and humans are basically just evolved monkeys.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on March 13, 2020, 11:22:33 PM
I know people criticise TNG for being a very early-90s, sexless, American liberal utopia but if all Picard has to say is 'people are mean to each other nowadays and everything sucks' then... Jesus.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on March 13, 2020, 11:38:48 PM
I know people criticise TNG for being a very early-90s, sexless, American liberal utopia but if all Picard has to say is 'people are mean to each other nowadays and everything sucks' then... Jesus .

Who takes on Q. I'm liking this.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on March 13, 2020, 11:45:54 PM
Yes, I'm not sure what the allegory even is here. How does any of this relate, in any way, to our world? Apart from "things are less nice than they used to be". I know Picard was all "you've got to be optimistic" this week... is that it? Is that the show's point? It took all this time to say that?

Romulan refugees = literal real refugees? It's a mystery, especially since they basically ditched that and now the message is about how "fear" has led to a ban on human-like androids, which is a really biting issue in reality of course.

Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on March 14, 2020, 02:07:30 AM
Also did anyone else absolutely howl at "black flag directive"? Rios (a man who, let's remember, was introduced by pouring alcohol on a bleeding shrapnel wound) was on a ship that received a BLACK FLAG DIRECTIVE from STARFLEET SECURITY telling them to SHOOT TWO PEOPLE or their SHIP WOULD BE BLOWN UP.

Picard apologist says: That's okay for Starfleet to do because the Omega Directive, which can apparently be equated with a credible threat to summarily execute an officer for not following orders, and take his ship and crew with him as collateral damage, existed.

(Sorry to quote this twice)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: beanheadmcginty on March 14, 2020, 04:52:23 AM
Looking on the bright side. I've always preferred Shatner anyway but always found it hard to justify, in much the same way that I prefer Roger Moore to Sean Connery. But now Picard has been in this load of shit, his copybook is blotted forever. It's 100 times worse than Star Trek V.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: grainger on March 14, 2020, 07:00:53 AM
Picard or Stewart? Picard's character is one of the few things doesn't come off too badly in this show, IMO.

I mean, it doesn't make any sense that it's the same Picard we saw in TNG, because the entire world he's in isn't remotely compatible[1], but Picard himself comes out of it relatively unscathed. It's been a long time since I saw the TOS movies, but Kirk must surely have made a bigger arse of himself in one of them.
 1. Yes "things change", but there are too many differences that must have been around at the time of TNG.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on March 14, 2020, 11:12:13 AM
Picard or Stewart? Picard's character is one of the few things doesn't come off too badly in this show, IMO.

Really? This Picard is a dithering idiot, continually whining and apologising (half the time for stuff that isn't his fault).

Instead of the skilled diplomat, this guy wanders into a bar, deliberately antagonises the locals, and starts fight which leads to someone's needless death. The guy who patronises a (supposedly) old friend and colleague when she destroys one more bit of her already ruined life. An insensitive sod who jerks around a woman who's just discovered her whole life is a lie (gets to apologise, to someone else, for that)

Irumodic Syndrome has really done a number on the poor sod.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on March 14, 2020, 11:19:28 AM
It's been a long time since I saw the TOS movies, but Kirk must surely have made a bigger arse of himself in one of them.

Nah, he was a bit of a twonk to Captain Nonce for 2 minutes in TMP, but otherwise he was boss. Even the first 15 minutes of Generations is more compelling than anything afterwards thanks to Kirk.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Poobum on March 14, 2020, 10:14:53 PM
Which is of course litigiously similar to the underlying plot from the Mass Effect games.

I thought I'd misunderstood that, for one, that would be stupid, it was stupid in Mass Effect; two, Raffi seemed to infer it from absolutely nothing but third hand knowledge of alien mindfuck machine. The writing is just so poor, with characters saying and knowing things that only make sense if they've read the script to the end.

I did miss the stupidity of Rios having met another Soji synth. The "oopsie in I a wrong un?" reaction of murderer doctor and everyone virtually shrugging it off was a bit odd. Maddox did seem to die in quite some agony.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on March 14, 2020, 10:16:15 PM
I actually didn't mind this one.  There were all sorts of things popping up in my Google Now feed along the lines of "Worst episode of Picard so  far!" and the reception here hasn't been brilliant but it seemed to me to answer a few lingering questions and bring a few things like Blondie's big murder to the surface (I don't care enough about her to remember her name, admittedly).  It was a bit hard to follow at times but that's my only criticism really and goes for a lot of modern Trek - in big contrast to The Orville which is comically easy to follow in comparison.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on March 14, 2020, 10:46:43 PM
You know it occurs to me that since Maddox was in Starfleet and in a position to object to Data entering the Academy, he must be about 80 at the time Picard is set. No age is given for Jurati, but she's played by a 34 year old actress, and honestly comes across as younger than that. And they were fucking.

Someone likes her Grandad porn.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: JamesTC on March 14, 2020, 11:01:46 PM
You know it occurs to me that since Maddox was in Starfleet and in a position to object to Data entering the Academy, he must be about 80 at the time Picard is set. No age is given for Jurati, but she's played by a 34 year old actress, and honestly comes across as younger than that. And they were fucking.

Someone likes her Grandad porn.

Also they were together in 2385 as he went on the run after the mars attack. Meaning it was 14 years before the events of Picard. So she would have been 20.

Maddox you dirty dog you.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on March 14, 2020, 11:31:58 PM
Also they were together in 2385 as he went on the run after the mars attack. Meaning it was 14 years before the events of Picard. So she would have been 20.

Maddox you dirty dog you.

Now unless Jurati is meant to be older than Alison Pil, and has just spent her whole life in research labs hence why she seems so 'green'. That would also allow her to have had some sort of short career with synths before the ban. But her being anything over 40 is pushing my suspension of disbelief a bit. And I think the only human main character in Star Trek significantly older than the actor is Picard himself, who's consistently been around 15 years older than Stewart.

Now obviously I'm overthinking and it's likely it didn't occur to the writers how old Maddox must be, which is not entirely unreasonable[1], but they couldn't possibly have had him pegged at less than his mid 60s.
 1. Brian Brophy was 30 when he played Maddox in TNG. But Data entered the Academy in 2341, and Maddox was at that stage being consulted on Academy admissions. So he was hardly a fresh 21 year old graduate in 2341 himself. Add on 20+ years until the TNG episode, and Maddox realistically has to be at least in his mid-40s by "The Measure of a Man", likely older. Then add on about 35 years or so to Picard
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on March 19, 2020, 12:28:20 PM
Enjoyed the first 20 mins or so of this week's then found myself fairly bored.

The good

I felt like I was watching Star Trek which is rare these days.

Got chills at the Voyager theme playing while Seven kicked some dead Romulans off a ledge!

Quite liked the Orchid things bringing down the ships.

Spot 2! Surprised Data never attempted to make an android animal before attempting Lal.


The bad

As nice as it was to have a new Soong character played by Spiner it did feel like a very insignificant thing. Yeah I was born, Data was created, let's move on. Almost felt a bit like a last minute idea.

They better not be linking this to DSC in any way.


The ugly

The Android make up was pretty bad. I know they were trying to make them stand out but it looked like the makeup you see on women these days that makes their face 10 shades darker than their neck!

One to go. Quite glad. The only bits I've really enjoyed have been references to Trek of old. Hope next week's is a bit longer as well and

a load of Starfleet ships turn up commanded by Riker, who get their arse handed to them on a plate before Worf turns up with a Klingon fleet declaring it a good day to die.

That would save it for me.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on March 19, 2020, 05:50:06 PM
So we're finally here. Eight episodes of side-quests and misdirection and it turns out that yes, indeed, it was Mass Effect the whole time.

When *ahem* 'Noonian Soong's biological son' turned up, I briefly hoped this would swerve into an elaborate trick but no... no we're doing 'computers want to kill us all'. Again.

'I'm A. I. Soong, pleased to meet you!' That not raising any red flags, Picard?!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: idunnosomename on March 19, 2020, 07:53:44 PM
"Rich wants to be in a grave and counts the days until he is there."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyGGW3tqNPY
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Zero Gravitas on March 20, 2020, 12:19:58 AM
The Android make up was pretty bad. I know they were trying to make them stand out but it looked like the makeup you see on women these days that makes their face 10 shades darker than their neck!

Reminded me of how awful the early makeup tests were:

(https://i.imgur.com/Qo5JKyD.jpg)

But even more jarring.

(https://i.imgur.com/modyNG6.jpg)

Still could be worse:

(https://i.imgur.com/bz3rC96.jpg)

Generally over the course of the series I've been pining for episodic episodes, somewhere where they've got an isolated story and aren't playing a game of slice and dice the overall arc, put some 'cool' bits in and then slap some late re-shoots over the top, this probably came the closest but was ultimately quite cringe inducing.

I'd not willingly reveal I've sat through all of that episode to anyone.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on March 20, 2020, 12:45:57 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/Qo5JKyD.jpg)

The many faces of Mark Zuckerberg.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Poobum on March 20, 2020, 03:12:49 PM
Hate the ship designs, all look like the generic models you'd find in Elite: Dangerous. Romulan Warbirds didn't need to be redesigned, they were iconic, these plastic wing toy things are worse than Discovery's Klingon lumps.

I'd love to know what the hell Patrick Stewart was going on about when he said the show was going to deal with contemporary problems. Did he mean reducing things to a false diametric that eschews all potential diversity on both sides and offers no intelligent investigation into the nature of either. Is it a meta commentary on centrism?

Was having a commune of synth hippies fighting with literal flower power supposed to be witty? Might give them that one actually.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: greenman on March 20, 2020, 05:23:57 PM
"Rich wants to be in a grave and counts the days until he is there."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyGGW3tqNPY

I gave up after episode 2 but these reviews maybe justify the series existence? seeing two men in some kind of collective mental breakdown is oddly entertaining.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: sirhenry on March 20, 2020, 07:07:16 PM
"If you develop synthetic life and if you then try to wipe it out, we will come and wipe out all organic life."

"We'd better set up a secret society/religion whose one aim is to wipe out all synthetic life once it's been developed then."

And this is what the entire series is built around?[1]
 1. I use 'built around' in the sense of 'building a Lego model of the Enterprise using parts from several other sets, none of which are the right shape, or even curved, but if you squint and really use your imagination it might just look like a Borg cube'.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on March 20, 2020, 07:36:56 PM
Hate the ship designs, all look like the generic models you'd find in Elite: Dangerous.

Still haven't got a good idea of what the main ship (La Senza?) looks like. Best I can see is a dented shoebox with some Toblerones stuck on as warp nacelles. That camo paint job is working.

The rest of them, low poly count seems to be the design principal. Only exception being that old Bird-of-Prey, which looked lovely. I presume someone had that model in their library.

Bring back Andrew Probert!!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: JamesTC on March 20, 2020, 07:39:57 PM
Remember when Enterprise did this whole Soong with a band of young followers thing and did it much much better?

Remember Spot. I remember.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on March 20, 2020, 08:24:15 PM
Remember when Enterprise did this whole Soong with a band of young followers thing and did it much much better?

Remember Spot. I remember.

Remember when Enterprise was the last actual Star Trek we had?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on March 20, 2020, 08:30:14 PM
Remember when Enterprise was the last actual Star Trek we had?

No, because it was also shit.

So is Picard going to die and stay dead, and La Sirena named Picard in his honour, or be re-made as an android? Place your bets.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on March 20, 2020, 08:37:57 PM
Christ that dragged like hell.

Are we meant to be with or against the Romulans at this point? The Federation ban is clearly justified if this is the end result of building synths. The Romulans have been vindicated every step of the way. If it wasn't for the fact that they inexplicably started murdering the ex-Borg (the people they'd been helping for free up until that point???) then they'd literally be 100% in the right.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: idunnosomename on March 20, 2020, 08:44:38 PM
I gave up after episode 2 but these reviews maybe justify the series existence? seeing two men in some kind of collective mental breakdown is oddly entertaining.
i think it is all worth it for rich evans' "good sir" jibe at the end
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on March 20, 2020, 08:49:55 PM
Are we meant to be with or against the Romulans at this point? The Federation ban is clearly justified if this is the end result of building synths. The Romulans have been vindicated every step of the way. If it wasn't for the fact that they inexplicably started murdering the ex-Borg (the people they'd been helping for free up until that point???) then they'd literally be 100% in the right.

Yeah it's kinda fuckways that the Evil Soji, in going kill-crazy, effectively justifies everything the Romulans are doing and alienates the only society (The Federation) that might accept and protect the Synths. Hopefully they're setting it up as a rejection of some sort of warmongering psuedo-dictator.

Maybe I'm being naive, but I have to assume that Chabon's misery fetish doesn't extend so far as to have all the Synths die, so I have to assume she'll be foiled. Maybe only most of them will die.

Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Deyv on March 20, 2020, 08:56:08 PM
Could the second season be Star Trek: Days of Future Past and attempt to fix the timeline fuck it who cares anymore
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: JamesTC on March 20, 2020, 09:02:14 PM
Remember when Enterprise was the last actual Star Trek we had?

Yep. And the producers all saying that this is supposed to be an allegory for modern-day society all looking dim as the message is so cackhanded. Whereas the Enterprise two-part finale is more relevant than ever.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on March 20, 2020, 09:07:32 PM
No, because it was also shit.

So is Picard going to die and stay dead, and La Sirena named Picard in his honour, or be re-made as an android? Place your bets.

Even the worst of Enterprise shits all over Picard. I think you could be half eight with that theory though. Bit of foreshadowing in ep 7 possibly.

Could the second season be Star Trek: Days of Future Past and attempt to fix the timeline fuck it who cares anymore

There's rumours of a DSC , Picard, Kurtzman-verse cross-over shitfest on the way. Preferably with Picard waking up and realising everything post 2005 was some awful nightmare.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on March 20, 2020, 09:58:21 PM
Even the worst of Enterprise shits all over Picard.

I'd dispute that "A Night in Sickbay" shits on anything other than itself and the series' Captain, but even if that weren't the case, Ent was still terrible Star Trek and it nearly killed the franchise. That's what let Abrams, Kurtzman, Orci, Chabon and all the other edgelords who we have now in the door. Let's not go pining for it.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on March 20, 2020, 10:01:05 PM
I'd dispute that "A Night in Sickbay" shits on anything other than itself and the series' Captain, but even if that weren't the case, Ent was still terrible Star Trek and it nearly killed the franchise. That's what let Abrams, Kurtzman, Orci, Chabon and all the other edgelords who we have now in the door. Let's not go pining for it.

I would and have rewatched Enterprise a good few times. I don't ever see me rewatching Picard or DSC so I'll pine for whatever the fuck I like, thanks.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on March 20, 2020, 10:08:59 PM
I would and have rewatched Enterprise a good few times. I don't ever see me rewatching Picard or DSC so I'll pine for whatever the fuck I like, thanks.

A dog pissing on a tree and the Captain going around in a childish temper for a whole episode? Whatever floats your boat, I suppose. (And Ent is still terrible and nearly killed the franchise, let the edgelords in yadda yadda... something of Ent's quality would not save Star Trek now, even if it's not as damaging to the legacy as Picard or as visually ugly and insanely written as Disco).

Anyhow, I saw someone suggest a 'worst case scenario' that is more than likely going to be the exact synopsis of season 2:

Quote
Worst case: Picard's brain in an android body played by a younger actor watches the destruction of the android planet; his new crew of Raffi, Rios, Jurati, Elnor, and Soji join him on his season 2 mission to find the super-synths and end their sword-of-damoclese threat hanging over the Federation.

This is exactly what is going to happen, isn't it?


Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on March 20, 2020, 10:41:24 PM
That would extremely stupid and bad so... probably?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: DocDaneeka on March 20, 2020, 11:24:30 PM
Thought it was nice to see that timelapse footage of the decomposing fox in the mind meld.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on March 20, 2020, 11:29:37 PM
These are worth a watch. All the Easter eggs and references in each episode.

Here's this week's.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=bUofwyWu87o
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on March 21, 2020, 12:43:51 AM
This is exactly what is going to happen, isn't it?

And then in the season two finale, the gang are visited by MICHAEL BURNHAM FROM THE 30TH CENTURY who tells them that she's come back to FIX THE TIMELINE and SAVE THE FEDERATION
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cortez the Surfer on March 21, 2020, 04:06:07 AM
Are we meant to be with or against the Romulans at this point? The Federation ban is clearly justified if this is the end result of building synths. The Romulans have been vindicated every step of the way. If it wasn't for the fact that they inexplicably started murdering the ex-Borg (the people they'd been helping for free up until that point???) then they'd literally be 100% in the right.
While coherently explaining what the fuck's going on isn't this show's strong point, in the last episode some of the characters appeared to saying that the Romulan double secret police kicked all this off by somehow hacking all the synths on Mars and reprogramming them to kill everyone because the Romulan lads were too organic to correctly interpret the message left by the Reapers uber synths.
So the Romulans are definitely the baddies or something.


I feel that I've given this show more than a fair go, certainly more than I gave Enterprise or Discovery, but it's going to have to join them in the folder in my brain marked 'Bollocks written by twats'.


Thought it was nice to see that timelapse footage of the decomposing fox in the mind meld.
Can anybody recall which recent-ish TV show used this footage in its title sequence?
It's doing my head in trying to remember.

Edit - Just remembered, it was True Blood.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: evilcommiedictator on March 21, 2020, 07:29:39 AM
Is this the bit where Q shows up and claim to be part of this AI but a dissenting faction? Just so it's more confusing
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Endicott on March 21, 2020, 11:56:36 PM
As far as the android makeup goes, I assumed that was a deliberate attempt to portray improvements in android production techniques. Sutra is an older model, whereas Soji is the current state of their art, being able to pass for human.

My problem with this episode is the decision to make Sutra go evil. I assume the in show reason is that the Admonition drives everyone crazy so it makes her crazy too, but I don't think it should affect androids, especially ones based on Data. I can easily imagine an episode of TNG where Data is subjected to something like this and yeah, he says 'Fascinating', but then just carries on as before completely unaffected. Having her turn evil is very dull, possibly I would even call it lazy. Much more interesting would have been her being unaffected, with the in show reasoning being that this is precisely because she is based on Data. That would have given Picard a bargaining position if only he could effectively communicate that these androids aren't a threat. That would be a Star Trek story. But on the current trajectory I can only see agency being taken out of Picard's hands, and it's supposed to be his show, FFS.

Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: beanheadmcginty on March 22, 2020, 12:05:54 AM
I always thought Data's makeup was worse in the films than the TV series. Too shiny and metallic. It seems that they've used the film style makeup in Picard too.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on March 22, 2020, 01:33:16 AM
Thargoids!

That is all.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mobbd on March 25, 2020, 04:02:05 PM
Hi!

Just popped in to see if Picard has improved at all! Wait, what? It's got even worse? Well, shit.

Random thought when watching "Elementary, Dear Data" this morning. Star Trek always had plot holes and unsatisfactory endings and thinly-written characters and people not learning from what should have been life-changing incidents two weeks ago, right? But we forgive it willingly because we're having a good time.

With Picard, the simple fact that everything looks like bilge water and none of the characters or stories are fun means it's for the bin.

To be clear: I'm not saying we're harshly judging Picard or remembering proper Trek too fondly or anything like that. I'm saying that this horrible show is beyond contempt on every level.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on March 25, 2020, 05:57:16 PM
There's also that fact that old Trek used to be stand alone episodes (with exceptions, mostly DS9), so you can excuse a bit of hand waving and character inconsistency to fit everything into 40 minutes.

This show will be 10 episodes, over 6 hours, of people being miserable dumbasses, for one story.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mobbd on March 25, 2020, 06:22:22 PM
There's also that fact that old Trek used to be stand alone episodes (with exceptions, mostly DS9), so you can excuse a bit of hand waving and character inconsistency to fit everything into 40 minutes.

This show will be 10 episodes, over 6 hours, of people being miserable dumbasses, for one story.

Agreed. Watching it is like drinking bin juice. Slowly.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wentworth Smith on March 25, 2020, 07:49:10 PM
There's also that fact that old Trek used to be stand alone episodes (with exceptions, mostly DS9), so you can excuse a bit of hand waving and character inconsistency to fit everything into 40 minutes.

This show will be 10 episodes, over 6 hours, of people being miserable dumbasses, for one story.

It isn't one story though and thats part of the problem, it's lots of bits of stories hanging off a thin main narrative. And none of the bits have enough about them to be interesting. And the people are miserable dumbasses.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on March 25, 2020, 09:53:16 PM
I don't hate the show entirely. It has the usual problem many penultimate episodes of a season these days in that it sets up the action packed finale but ends up being slow and boring itself while doing so.

This did feel more like Trek than most of what has gone before and it is miles better than Discovery, but it still isn't good enough. Raffi as a character is terrible and the murdering cyberneticist is just plain annoying. Only Picard, Rios and Soji are at all interesting, which is two up on Discovery.

The season arc has been way too thin and it would have been better to have more standalone episode stories bulking it out. Doing a whole season of standalone episodes might no longer be the model for television in the streaming age as it was in the syndication age (and I can understand why), but a better middle ground would be character arcs and story arcs running through a series of mostly individual episode stories. That way you keep the serialised draw to bring the audience back for the whole series with the faster speed of a standalone episode.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on March 25, 2020, 10:16:00 PM
Picard honestly feels less like Star Trek than Discovery did to me. They're both flashy nonsense with plots that make the worst videogame writing look good, but Discovery (the second season, anyway) had a few new ideas of its own and went for the occasional semi-standalone episode. Picard feels more like elements and characters of previous Star Trek series being brutally stripped of all context and twisted to fit into this crap muddled story that's about fifty different things and also nothing all at the same time, with every episode except the casino planet (terrible) and the RikerTroi episode (boring) all blending together into one nightmarish blur.

Raffi is indeed terrible but I think Michelle Hurd deserves praise for doing great work with near-nonexistent material. She just about managed to sell that scene with her son that came out of nowhere, meant nothing and likely will not be mentioned again. Soji, Rios and Jurati are all some combination of boring, annoying, or both, while Narek and Narissa are beyond cringeworthy. Picard feels like a new character with little connection to TNG's Picard, and not a very interesting new character at that. My favourite character is Admiral Clancy because Picard really should just "shut the fuck up".

Actually, all the actors deserve praise for working with what they've got - except for Patrick Stewart, that is. Patrick Stewart can't even act anymore. It's like he's in a regional theatre production. "BUT to ACC-USE her of BE-ING a TAL SHIAAAAR AGENT?!?! *gurn*". He's actually sucking the life out of every scene he's in, and that's really bad news when no scene in the show has any life in it to start with. He's creating anti-life vacuums, to the point where it's almost a relief when it cuts to yet another scene of Jurati crying or Soji panicking just to break up the monotony.

The only thing it really has over Discovery is that the plot is actually possible to follow, unlike the Red Angel stuff, but Discovery was so offensively stupid and incoherent - especially towards the end - that it was at least easy to laugh at. This is just an exercise in checking how long's left every 5 minutes and wondering how it's possible that you're only halfway through the episode when it feels like you've been watching it for hours and yet almost nothing's happened on screen.

In conclusion, can't wait for the already-commissioned second series and I'm going to buy a Raffi FunkoPop to recreate my favourite scenes.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: oy vey on March 25, 2020, 10:35:34 PM
Watching each episode piss away is a bit like final GoT season all over again. I can't imagine any kind of last episode redeeming it now. Even Q can't save it. It's not the darkness, it's the shitty writing. It's like the writers fucked a load of post-its on a wall and forgot to throw away shite and develop the rest into a coherent script.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on March 25, 2020, 10:59:13 PM
Gun to my head, I'd say that Disco feels more like Star Trek than Picard on the basis that they're actually in Starfleet, on a Starfleet ship doing science and exploration with their starship. But scratch beneath the surface and any 'Trek feel' from either series is shallow overtures. Pike's completely empty sound-offs with Disco's crew about how great they are and how positively Starfleet views them. Picard being touched at seeing the Hugh and xBs only for loads of them to die in very next episode. etc. etc.

That being said, I have more hope that Picard might come good. Dunno why. Maybe I'm some sort of moron. Disco mid season 1 was starting to look like it could get good with, but then they fucked everything aspect of it that had promise, and turned all the characters into shallow cut-outs by the middle of season 2. Picard's characters are largely shallow cut-outs too, but they could develop, whilst Disco's have regressed, even within relatively short run of the show so far.[1]
 1. Don't wanna harp on too much cos I mentioned it in another thread, but I really cannot get over Saru 'evolving' into a more predatory species. Couldn't have a gradual change in him where he realises himself that he needs to be firm and less pessimistic to become an effective starship captain, but at the same time not entirely abandon his 'prey species' instinct for danger to protect the people under his command? No? That's too subtle? Okay, he has to talk about how powerful he feels and gain the ability to fire bone darts instead.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mobbd on March 26, 2020, 11:13:48 AM
They're both flashy nonsense

Flashy would never have been a word I'd have chosen to describe these shows, but you're spot-on. Flashy is right. In the way that BoJo is "flashy" with his big, useless, expensive, unwanted, alienating construction projects. Picard is like Garden Bridge. Disco is like HS2. All noise and no signal. Meaningless, nutrient-free brown polystyrene.

Another thought. Did anyone catch the Star Trek episode of The Toys That Made Us? They talked about (I'm struggling to remember the right word) "re-badging" or "badge-slapping" or something where toy manufactures would slap the Trek brand onto an unrelated product by way of shifting units. The result was stuff like that helmet: https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2016/09/08/shittest-star-trek-merchandising-ever-made/

Picard is that helmet. But nowhere near as fun. And it's canon!

*goes off to be sick in a bucket*
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on March 26, 2020, 11:44:58 AM
Well that's that over with thank fuck.

What was the point in bringing Seven in to this? She had little to do except revenge kills and become lesbian. Chakotay must have let the side down.

We've already had Data's death. Don't be making me sob over it again...

Nice of Riker to turn up with a massive fleet of IDENTICAL looking ships to face off against the massive fleet of IDENTICAL Romulan ships and then leave just as quick.

Soong was a real Soong and not Lore then. If they hadn't killed off Maddox he could have filled that role easily.

The Riker bits were the best I thought. Good to see him on a bridge.

What was that Sonic Screwdriver equivalent thingy? It just seemed to appear as a super handy plot device not once but twice.

And what in the name of fuck was coming out of that portal? Big mechanical claws making a load of noise. Piss off.

I swear the writers are just writing any old shite and being happy with it.



No more. There was maybe 20 mins of the whole series that I liked. I'll just remember those bits and delete the rest. Should have known it was going to be shit.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mobbd on March 26, 2020, 03:23:13 PM
Well that's that over with thank fuck.

What was the point in bringing Seven in to this? She had little to do except revenge kills and become lesbian. Chakotay must have let the side down.

We've already had Data's death. Don't be making me sob over it again...

Nice of Riker to turn up with a massive fleet of IDENTICAL looking ships to face off against the massive fleet of IDENTICAL Romulan ships and then leave just as quick.

Soong was a real Soong and not Lore then. If they hadn't killed off Maddox he could have filled that role easily.

The Riker bits were the best I thought. Good to see him on a bridge.

What was that Sonic Screwdriver equivalent thingy? It just seemed to appear as a super handy plot device not once but twice.

And what in the name of fuck was coming out of that portal? Big mechanical claws making a load of noise. Piss off.

I swear the writers are just writing any old shite and being happy with it.



No more. There was maybe 20 mins of the whole series that I liked. I'll just remember those bits and delete the rest. Should have known it was going to be shit.

Holy Fuck. Are they even professional writers? That sounds like fanfic written in a spunk-smelling room with the blinds down. And not in a good way.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Zero Gravitas on March 26, 2020, 04:07:01 PM
So what wasn't ultimately fluff that had no effect on anything?

I'm not sure what elements were vital to the plot anymore, the core of it was:

Romulans framed synths for the destruction of mars and schemed to know the source of even more advanced synths in order to get rid of them too, ultimately being dissuaded from achieving this when confronted by the federation fleet.

I don't want to discount creative world building as pointless but the existence of the borg cube, the borg XB integration and predation plot, the romulan system's destruction, the knock on effects on the destruction of mars on the romulan evacuation - it feels flippant to dismiss them as set pieces but I'm struggling to feel they're realised elements of the story - even given that this has been 10 hours of screen time it doesn't seem like a lot has gone on that actually involves the core arc, and what has gone on truly related to the core arc seems watery and half thought out.

Perhaps it's the heavy and repetitive blending of the core arc intermixed with half-integrated skeletons of episodic plots; but this lost its identity as either.

This whole thing has made me very sad.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on March 26, 2020, 05:23:24 PM
Okay, I've defended this series up till now.

But that was just shit.

Badly written shit.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on March 26, 2020, 05:43:43 PM
And just to add a rant about that old chestnut that death allows us to live. No, it bloody doesn't! If everyone could live as long as they wanted would we be any different apart from a lot happier? Whenever this anti-immortality stuff comes up it always seems like sour grapes to me. "Living forever would be so horrible. I wouldn't want it anyway."

Rather than this slow descent to decrepitude and death (assuming it doesn't just leap out at me suddenly one day) I'd much prefer living to 495 (or 4595 or whatever) deciding that was enough, throwing a big party and then peacefully ceasing to exist.


Load of wank.

And to top it all Picard is dead and we're expected to follow the adventures of an android with his memories copied to it tottering around next series. I don't bloody think so.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Zero Gravitas on March 26, 2020, 05:45:57 PM
...the adventures of an android with his memories copied to it tottering around next series. I don't bloody think so.

He's done it probably thousands of times before, but previously the new bodes were freshly materialised meat.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Poobum on March 26, 2020, 06:14:17 PM
I forgot about Lore. That would have been really interesting if he'd changed and tried to built a lasting legacy to his father and brother. There'd have been character growth, interesting reflections, emotional weight. Would he try to correct what he saw as flaws in Data's design? Would he aspire to recreate his brother's nobility? But instead we got a random Soong.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mobbd on March 26, 2020, 06:31:19 PM
Okay, I've defended this series up till now.

But that was just shit.

Badly written shit.

Aw, sorry Alberon. Genuinely. I enjoyed your cautious optimism through the early episodes.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Small Man Big Horse on March 26, 2020, 08:49:15 PM
Okay, I've defended this series up till now.

But that was just shit.

Badly written shit.

I'd defended it up to and including the Riker/Troi episode, but everything after that I really struggled with, and then the season finale was piss poor stuff indeed. I'm genuinely surprised as I love Michael Chabon's novels, but this was so simplistic and poorly plotted compared to them. I could pick apart about a million things (or thirteen, anyhow) but most of all, are they just letting Agnes off the hook for murdering Maddox now?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Poobum on March 26, 2020, 10:27:56 PM
The Troi and Riker episode annoyed me, Marina Sirtis' husky voice aside. It was lazy emotional manipulation, trying to make us face the consequences of the Federations horrible ban. Look a child died of science babble that could have easily been solved by techno babble, but the Federation have done that thing that makes absolutely no sense, damn them. Real deep stuff.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on March 26, 2020, 11:19:55 PM
I kinda liked the last episode in a way, but at the same time I know it was just pure fan service and fluff:

Pull on our heart-strings with Data. Again. Check.

Have Riker turn up to help save the day with 200 ships. Check. (They really should've made them pre-existing designs, which should still be in service though. Those thing were fucking ugly)

Have Picard sacrifice himself even though it was blindingly obvious he wasn't going to stay dead. Check.
(Once you've introduced the Golem in the previous episode, we all know what it's going to be used for. But you could at least do a bit better than Picard 'dying' with more than 15 minutes left. It's really obvious he's not going to stay dead when there's that much episode left.
Also if he thought he was going to die, why didn't he ask Riker to hang around?)

Peaceful, happy, resolution which is supposed to undo 9 episodes of miserable shit. Check
(I'm surprised it didn't resurrect Troi & Riker's dead son along Icheb & Hugh)


And then there's pure pointlessness and silliness:

The android's magic wand. I could buy it as a repair tool, but also being able to generate 200 images of La Sirena? And 200 images of La Sirena that act and manouvre indepedently of the original. Fuck off. Right off. And it's unnecessary from the point of view of the narrative. Just have Captain Beard turn up a few minutes earlier.

Seven & Raffi holding hands at the end for no reason. If you want Seven to be in season 2 and be a lesbian, that's fine. Just build it in season 2, please, rather than lazily tacking it on at the end here.

This Picard loving Data stuff... there's only so many times you can have them say that without concluding that Picard wanted to fuck Data. Is that what they actually mean?


Now that they've made everything happy and nice and positive again, can we have a real Star Trek series now?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Zero Gravitas on March 26, 2020, 11:49:34 PM
Insultingly careless and cheap, there was also the recent discovery that the 'Admonition' https://youtu.be/VLCxAJdCZGg was for a large part Shutterstock videos. Totally libellous gossip is that Secret Hideout funneled bags of PIC wonga into STD season 3.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on March 26, 2020, 11:54:52 PM
Totally libellous gossip is that Secret Hideout funneled bags of PIC wonga into STD season 3.

Totally libellous gossip has been that that Disco has been a complete commercial failure that was going to be cancelled and result in the IP being sold to Seth McFarlane, so I'd take that with a pinch of salt. Whilst it's not completely incompatible for these two things to have truth in them (PIC money used to save DIS S3?) that seasons 4 & 5 of Disco have been green lit makes it a bit of a stretch.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on March 27, 2020, 12:05:33 AM
Righto. I'm settling in with this hot stream of piss and I'm going to watch every. single. second of it.

Wish me luck.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on March 27, 2020, 12:36:02 AM
This is so shit! I've seen fan films with more believable green-screening. Just pay the fucking hundred bucks for a second spaceship mesh... Jesus Christ.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on March 27, 2020, 12:47:22 AM
Pfffff... what?!

It was all about love the whole time? The importance of making a human connection the whole time? It was about FAMBLY THE WHOLE TIME?!

Fuck off was it ever the fuck about that.

Edit: Glad that nobody in Star Trek ever needs to die again, though...
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Zero Gravitas on March 27, 2020, 01:31:33 AM
Whenever this anti-immortality stuff comes up it always seems like sour grapes to me. "Living forever would be so horrible. I wouldn't want it anyway."

Data was 41 when he died, hardly a full life, certainly not compared to Picard, I suspect he just said whatever was most likely to end his 20 years of stimulated isolation in a grey room.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mobbd on March 27, 2020, 08:00:27 AM
Quick question for people who watched to the end:

The Romulan who liked drama. i.e. the lad with the haircut who told them the rules about life on the Artifact. Did he ever make a second appearance?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wentworth Smith on March 27, 2020, 12:23:21 PM
Quick question for people who watched to the end:

The Romulan who liked drama. i.e. the lad with the haircut who told them the rules about life on the Artifact. Did he ever make a second appearance?

He went to the android base with them and was never mentioned again as far as I remember. They didn't even have him reacting to the news his sister was dead!

The multiple spaceships things was silly as has been mentioned, especially when they had a Borg cube on the planet which it seems 7 just left behind.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mobbd on March 27, 2020, 01:09:18 PM
He went to the android base with them and was never mentioned again as far as I remember. They didn't even have him reacting to the news his sister was dead!

Oh wait, not that Romulan. I may have misremembered who said what in that first episode. I'm not curious about he of the sister (Narek, I believe he is called). I'm curious about the lad who was standing up on the gantry and said something like "there could be active drones here. If you see a drone on the loose... run."
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on March 27, 2020, 01:13:20 PM
I'm really struggling with what Picard is ultimately about.

So we've got the Federation right, which off-screen rolls back rights for androids without comment and then produces a slave class which goes berserk and so then 'synths are banned'. OK.

But then the protest all the sympathetic characters make, and the issue the free androids are fighting for, is 'our rights are being denied by this ban' and 'this ban is an insult to the personhood of synthetic life' but like... the ban isn't the issue, it's the original decision to enslave sentient machines. The happy ending to the story is a reversal of the material illegality of androids but that doesn't also undo their classification as property. What's to stop the Federation just making a million slave Datas again next Tuesday?

There's a really confusing allegory here with slavery and civil rights that conflates the two and positions... I guess, legal slave ownership and universal suffrage as being politically aligned? The issue is one of liberty and personhood not a right to exist as a nation. If anything the plot of Picard is closer to the issues of Jewish identity and nation state but were the androids ever... exterminated? It's certainly what the current androids seem worried about. If so, how the fuck do you parse the genocidal revenge plan that exists for all of half an episode?

What the fuck is Picard actually about, friends?!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mobbd on March 27, 2020, 01:17:54 PM
Thank Christ. A sensible review from mainstream press at last: https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2020/mar/27/star-trek-picard-is-the-dark-reboot-that-boldly-goes-where-nobody-wanted-it-to

Quote
the idea that the grittiness [...] makes it mature and relevant, while the ethos of yesteryear Star Trek is now naive or too old-fashioned to survive, feels misjudged.

Quote
In the 90s, the darker spin-off show Deep Space Nine pre-empted Picard%u2019s themes by 27 years, asking what happens when the principles of the Federation are compromised by war. The difference was that Deep Space Nine, much like the best of Star Trek, managed to balance its meatier themes of PTSD, faith and wartime atrocities with episodes where everyone got dressed up to visit a holographic version of 60s Las Vegas.

Quote
[What] is fundamentally lacking from modern Star Trek: a sense of tonal texture, a spirit of curiosity about different worlds and cultures, and the crackling chemistry of a warm and interesting crew. Instead, as is the case with Picard, its new characters have felt like broadly drawn %u201Cbadasses%u201D at best and, at worst, downright cold and unlikable.][What] is fundamentally lacking from modern Star Trek: a sense of tonal texture, a spirit of curiosity about different worlds and cultures, and the crackling chemistry of a warm and interesting crew. Instead, as is the case with Picard, its new characters have felt like broadly drawn %u201Cbadasses%u201D at best and, at worst, downright cold and unlikable.

Quote
The limited length of the series, which %u2013 like so much streaming TV %u2013 plays out almost as one 10-hour story, is also a factor. The benefit of 20-odd-episode seasons in which a crew of characters is faced with a different problem every week lies not only in the soap opera-style comfort of coming to think of a crew as family, but also in the potential to experiment with a variety of different stories and themes. The focus of Picard and Discovery tends to be so narrow that the universe ends up feeling smaller, less alive and less interesting.]The limited length of the series, which %u2013 like so much streaming TV %u2013 plays out almost as one 10-hour story, is also a factor. The benefit of 20-odd-episode seasons in which a crew of characters is faced with a different problem every week lies not only in the soap opera-style comfort of coming to think of a crew as family, but also in the potential to experiment with a variety of different stories and themes. The focus of Picard and Discovery tends to be so narrow that the universe ends up feeling smaller, less alive and less interesting.

Perfect, no?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mobbd on March 27, 2020, 01:23:46 PM
There's a really confusing allegory here with slavery and civil rights that conflates the two and positions...

Excellent point.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: beanheadmcginty on March 27, 2020, 03:08:48 PM
If they could just knock up a new body and load the consciousness into it no problem like they did with Picard, why had no one to bothered to do it with Data years ago? Why was he stuck in the grey room?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on March 27, 2020, 03:57:49 PM
If they could just knock up a new body and load the consciousness into it no problem like they did with Picard, why had no one to bothered to do it with Data years ago? Why was he stuck in the grey room?

One can only assume that because the brains that Maddox' androids have were made from a positronic neuron from Data, they had their own consciousness from their creation and couldn't have another one overwritten onto them (or if it was technically possible, you'd effectively be murdering the original consciousness). And for some reason the Golem that Soong was working on that could have someone's consciousness written onto it was harder to make. Although I think it was implied that, before they decided Picard needed it, Soong planned to put his own mind into it rather than Data's.

But yeah, seems a bit far fetched that they can make 100s of sentient androids but only one blank one, and only after 15 more years research than the sentient ones.

EDIT: Or maybe all the andriods Maddox made up until Soji and her dopplegangers are shit and their brains wouldn't be able to take Data's consciousness. Apart from Soji and Sutra, they're ludicrously passive considering what's at stake. If Picard had told them they all had to die, they'd have probably just sat there and accepted it.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on March 27, 2020, 07:39:56 PM
That was fucking abominable. Christ. At least it's over.

So, Commodore Oh was essentially the hero, right? If Picard's speech hadn't worked, the Federation would have fought the Romulans while the beacon powered up, and then the Federation, the Romulans, and ALL LIFE IN THE GALAXY would have died because of the tentacle monsters. Why was the Federation protecting the planet and antagonising the Romulans? If a grenade could have taken the beacon out, why couldn't the Federation cooperate with the Romulans to destroy the beacon on the condition that the planetary "sterilisation" not go ahead?

Why did the Romulans magically stop firing immediately when the illusory ships disappeared, leaving only the defenceless real ship? Why did Raffi ask what the Gammadon was after HEARING WHAT IT WAS TWO MINUTES EARLIER? Why did Elnor et al insist that it was just a myth WHILE THE BEACON WAS BEING CONSTRUCTED WITHIN EYESHOT?

Is Jurati just getting away with murder? And is Soji getting away with the attempted murder of everyone in the entire galaxy?

Also Picard's speech at the end about how humans are alright despite "violence and rampant corruption"... is violence and rampant corruption particularly widespread in the Federation now?

Whatever. It's over. And hey, Seven and Raffi - two characters who have virtually never spoken - looked pretty into each other at the end there. Exciting romantic possibilities for season two!!!

Let's just enjoy the respite before Discovery season three kicks off. Did anyone else see the little preview at the start of the episode with Burnham holding up the tattered Federation flag? Gonna be great, everyone. Gonna be excellent.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on March 27, 2020, 07:52:08 PM
I tried to sustain an argument that Burnham's "Mary Sue" label was arguably unwarranted in season 1 and wouldn't have been slapped on if she'd been white bloke (called Michelle Burnham because the female one has a boy's name). Certainly it went on her from some after one episode, when it wouldn't have with a male lead.

Then season 2 happened and she was the biggest Mary Sue ever.

In season 3, she'll be the future's saviour, no doubt, re-educating the future on what the Federation is and should be.

Idk, maybe they'll find a way to make it work and we can write off season 1 as a failed abortion and season 2 as the emergency surgery to save the resulting birth. But I doubt it for some reason.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Poobum on March 27, 2020, 08:20:03 PM
That quippy brother and sister can fuck off. Romulans are arrogant and Imperial, they're not smug little quippy bastards.

If you're the Romulans and you believe this beacon is the harbinger of space Cthulu then you don't arse about fighting tiny ships that have offered no threat, you warp your ships into the fucking planet. Commodore Oh finding reasons not to say "fire" went past parody.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on March 27, 2020, 08:43:48 PM
I tried to sustain an argument that Burnham's "Mary Sue" label was arguably unwarranted in season 1 and wouldn't have been slapped on if she'd been white bloke (called Michelle Burnham because the female one has a boy's name). Certainly it went on her from some after one episode, when it wouldn't have with a male lead.

Then season 2 happened and she was the biggest Mary Sue ever.

In season 3, she'll be the future's saviour, no doubt, re-educating the future on what the Federation is and should be.

Idk, maybe they'll find a way to make it work and we can write off season 1 as a failed abortion and season 2 as the emergency surgery to save the resulting birth. But I doubt it for some reason.

I liked Burnham in some parts, despite being as erratically written and shallow as all the other characters in Discovery. The Mary Sue label was unwarranted for sure, especially in season one. And it definitely is partially a result of sexism - TOS-era Kirk never gets called a Mary Sue despite 90% of episodes having him always in the right, portrayed as better and wiser than everyone else, and personally overhauling entire planetary societies through sheer force of will, which is far more ridiculous than anything Burnham ever does. Sonequa Martin-Green tries to give Burnham a lot more character than the scripts do, I think, going for the raised-by-Vulcans angle that the writers abandoned pretty quickly.

There's little doubt that Discovery season three is going to just be yet another of our scheduled doses of Kurtzman-induced pain that we've been getting every year since 2017, but there's still room for a miracle to occur and for them to salvage it. The trailer looked alright, the only alarming aspect being that Burnham is indeed apparently the focal point around which the Federation will be reborn.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on March 27, 2020, 08:59:30 PM
I liked Burnham in some parts, despite being as erratically written and shallow as all the other characters in Discovery. The Mary Sue label was unwarranted for sure, especially in season one. And it definitely is partially a result of sexism - TOS-era Kirk never gets called a Mary Sue despite 90% of episodes having him always in the right, portrayed as better and wiser than everyone else, and personally overhauling entire planetary societies through sheer force of will, which is far more ridiculous than anything Burnham ever does. Sonequa Martin-Green tries to give Burnham a lot more character than the scripts do, I think, going for the raised-by-Vulcans angle that the writers abandoned pretty quickly.

Kirk is largely what I mind with the comparison. Between having all the women, from semi-feral 14 year old girls to early 20th century Social Workers, fall for him, the time he beat up a genetically engineered superman by hitting him with a big thick rod (oh-er) and the all the hostile computers he literally talked to death.

Also there was the complaint that she was able to fight Voq hand to hand, because he's a massive Klingon and she's only a tiny little girl. Guess everyone had their eyes closed during this bit of Way of the Warrior: https://youtu.be/wHmXStJmB2A?t=74

Another thing on Oh, the Synths and the Heavy Metal Tentacle Rape coming through the wormhole: These extra-dimensional super Synths must suck as protectors of Synths throughout the multi-verse. First of all, the only reason the Synths on Aia only know about the Admonition is because Sutra melded with Jurati. And Jurati only knows about it because Oh melded with her. If Oh had, I dunno... not fucking mind-melded with Jurati just to get to her to ingest a tracking device, Sutra would've had no way to know that their potential protectors even really existed, much less how to summon them for help. And they'd have been reliant on Starfleet to save them, who were a dramatic pause away from being too late.

And secondly, when the wormhole closes, they just shrug their shoulders? Have they no way to re-open it to see are all the Synths they were apparently about to wipe out trillions (quadrillions, even?) of people to save are all right?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on March 27, 2020, 09:05:17 PM
Dunno I quite liked it but tend to be the black sheep around here when it comes to not hating everything :p

Interesting homage to the deactivation of HAL when Data died again.

I think the whole show really was meant to address real world issues, as always with Trek.  Synths were basically the equivalent of the Muslims and the Mars attack kind of 9/11.  And it's about Sir Pat saying look humanity stop letting yourself be consumed by fear and your fear turning to hate etc etc

The two things that bugged me were:

1) The series long issue of Evil Bond Villain Romulans.  If it's about them being consumed with fear, why are loverboy, Oh and wotserface all purring comicbook baddies?

2) The comment about humanity (still) being a nasty destructive horrible lot.  Sorry what?  This is Star Trek, not Reddit, we don't need the misanthropy.  The LITERAL FIRST EPISODE of TNG (and in fact the last) was about proving to Q (and the viewers) that humanity had evolved beyond all that nonsense.  I know the retcon of humanity in modern Trek is to make us look at ourselves but.... Ehhh yeah it's not great.

Other than that I thought it came together fairly well. Time will tell as my longer term opinions on these things tend to take a while to settle.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on March 27, 2020, 09:51:57 PM
The synths being intended as a comparison with any real world minority groups feels pretty dodgy when literally all the synths on the planet either supported the doomsday beacon that would have wiped out everyone except them in the galaxy, or just didn't care enough to try and stop it from being constructed. Since building the beacon appears to be trivial, and could be done again by any synths anywhere anytime, and we don't have any indication that the rest of the synths shared Soji's sudden change of heart, it's really hard to argue that the Zhat Vash are wrong that synths present a genuine constant existential threat to all life everywhere. They would have killed trillions of people if Soji hadn't decided to change her mind on a whim at the last minute.

I still can't figure out Starfleet's plan. Show up and stop the Romulans, but then do nothing to stop the beacon themselves, resulting in the deaths of the entire Milky Way galaxy?

The other apparent real world comparison - Romulan refugees - didn't seem to go anywhere either.

Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: grainger on March 27, 2020, 11:37:54 PM
That was atrocious. Properly shit. So bad that it was properly insulting. There was so much wrong I can't cover it all, but here're some things that jumped out and I don't think have been discussed yet.

All the stuff at the end about dying seemed to be someone's pet philosophy, or just something they cooked up quickly, either way having nothing to do with the rest of the show. Fake profundity.

"Now that the synthetics ban has been lifted" was a proper Scooby Doo line. Risible.

Worst of all, in episode 1 (or was it 2?) Picard was literally told to fuck off by Starfleet for asking for one ship to go on this mission. In episode 10, Riker turns up with a reinstated command and a whole armada of Star Fleet's "best ever" ships. You - just - can't - do - that. It would be like Sherlock Holmes ruling out a line of evidence suggested by Watson on page 1, then on the final page using that evidence to solve the case and everyone going "hurrah". Either they didn't notice they had done this, or hoped we wouldn't remember because 9 episodes had sat in between.

Picard suddenly remembers his illness and starts to die. Then they say he "sacrificed himself". Only because of some contrived bollocks about a drug that cut short his life but conveniently happened to allow him to stay in command.

The characters were either stock stereotypes and/or simply rubbish. I hate cigar-chomping captain. I hate Legolas. I hate hipster Romulan (how is he not simply a Human? What is alien about him?). I hate hipster Romulan's sister. I hate son of Soong. I hate the evil android. I hate the stupidly intense Romulan admiral. I hate "badass" Riker. Bollocks to it all.

A lot of stuff certainly happened. Not much of it made any sense, or even had anything to do with any themes they might be trying to convey. There was some emotive music to tell me what to feel about it. That's about it.

One final thought. Seeing TNG-era Picard next to Data at the end was the first genuine emotion I felt during the entire show. But this show didn't earn that moment.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Camp Tramp on March 27, 2020, 11:52:00 PM
Doesn't the Federation now know the Romulans were behind the bombing of Mars?
Act of war surely?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Zero Gravitas on March 28, 2020, 02:26:21 AM
Oh wait, not that Romulan. I may have misremembered who said what in that first episode. I'm not curious about he of the sister (Narek, I believe he is called). I'm curious about the lad who was standing up on the gantry and said something like "there could be active drones here. If you see a drone on the loose... run."

No never appeared again, neither did the badges or her nervous friend, or the dynamic that they were visitors in a slightly bureaucratic-ish romulan controlled research installation.

Watching that specific scene does have a weird more polished (and comfortably boring) tone to it, since those gantry sections were amongst the initial promo photos I wonder if it's not a remnant from before the cheap as chips reshoots and greenscreen it's fairly reusable scene setting if you forget that most of the elements it introduces vanish.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Pranet on March 28, 2020, 12:12:05 PM
Initially I thought the borg cube was an interesting idea. They didn't really do much with it in the end.

I didn't hate this series- I mostly enjoyed it. It did end badly for me. Much preferred the first half of the series to the second half.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: sirhenry on March 28, 2020, 08:39:46 PM
Just to check I didn't miss something...

Admiral O presumably spent her adult life working her way through Starfleet to become Head of Security. And then, in a blink of an eye she was given the job of being top Battle Admiral of the Romulan Clone Fleet, for which she had no experience. No wonder she couldn't work out how to shoot a sitting target.

Maybe they'll retcon it in a comic, though after the prequel comics I'm not sure if I could bring myself to read the graphic Story of O.

Trying to work out the optimism/pessimism shifts over time in the Star Trek timeline seems to imply that the future is weirdly, and massively, bipolar.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: beanheadmcginty on March 28, 2020, 08:42:04 PM
Watched the TNG episode where they find Scotty on a Dyson sphere last night. It was a million times better than this series.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on March 28, 2020, 08:44:43 PM
Was it established why/who was faking the Twins' hologram Mum? And does that square with what we learned later on?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Zero Gravitas on March 28, 2020, 09:22:36 PM
I don't think any of the reason either of the twins thought they were human along with associated fakery was covered unless I tuned out during some soong exposition, we'd have to assume it was Maddox but he didn't get much chance to explain.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: JamesTC on March 28, 2020, 09:33:04 PM
Was it established why/who was faking the Twins' hologram Mum? And does that square with what we learned later on?

I thought that was explained as being part of their programming?

I dunno. So much shit wasn't explained that I don't know what they did explain and what was explained on some fucking instagram Q&A.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Alberon on March 28, 2020, 09:52:44 PM
Just to check I didn't miss something...

Admiral O presumably spent her adult life working her way through Starfleet to become Head of Security. And then, in a blink of an eye she was given the job of being top Battle Admiral of the Romulan Clone Fleet, for which she had no experience. No wonder she couldn't work out how to shoot a sitting target.

Yep, she blew her cover to stand on a Romulan warbird bridge (or in front of a CGI background of one) just to keep saying wait for her order rather than blasting a defenceless planet or Picard’s ship.

Good thing the Romulans put someone so useless in charge of it all. Anyone halfway competent would have blown all the synths and Picard to atoms before Riner and his beard could get there.

And if they really believed they were fighting for all organic life in the galaxy why would they have given up when Riker’s fleet dropped in?

The first half of the season was mainly competent but the last four episodes looked like it was scribbled down on the back of a fag packet in five minutes.

And Picard and co seem absolutely fine jetting off with a murderer in their crew. Also Soong seemed to kill the murdering synth and no one batted an eyelid.

Utter mess.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on March 29, 2020, 12:53:55 AM
If they had squeezed the whole main thread into a 40min stand alone episode, I would have accepted it.

"Oooh, planet of androids. Oh no, they're calling in super-androids to kill us all. Whew, we Picard speeched them into seeing sense. <daa-da-da-daah-da-dah-daaaa>"

But for a whole season, of a supposedly sophisticated and adult new show, utter nonsensical wank. Could have delved into some political intrigue. Could have actually tackled the refugee issue. Could have given a million-and-one interesting ideas at least a half-arsed go.

But nope, nothing makes sense, here's a load of identical CGI ships going pew-pew and a unearned emotional bit with some beloved characters who've been raped in front of you. And token lesbians!! Woot! ~/~We're so progressive, We're so progressive~/~
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on March 29, 2020, 03:22:33 AM
All the supposed benefits of serialisation completely failed to materialise with this show. It's almost impressive.

We've got something that, if it had actually been squeezed into a 45 minute TNG episode, would probably be mid-season filler. On rewatches, you'd see it on the episode list and think "oh yeah, that's the one where they go to that android planet and Seven's on a cube, that wasn't up to much" and skip it. Or more likely it'd be a two-parter like Descent that nobody likes because it's full of dumb callbacks and is a plotting disaster. "Oh yeah, that's the two parter where there's a Romulan samurai kid and Hugh comes back. That was shit". Amazing.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Chairman Yang on March 29, 2020, 04:02:13 AM
Picard is so deliberately superficial as to make any ultimate criticism impossible. It's a fractal of lazy decisions, a perfect crystal of corporate fiction. It's entirely and obviously bad and I was a complete gimboid to give it the benefit of the doubt.

It was pitched as Relic Hunter with an 80 year old man, what the fuck was anyone thinking?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: sirhenry on March 29, 2020, 08:21:15 AM
And token lesbians!! Woot! ~/~We're so progressive, We're so progressive~/~
Ah, but it's alright, they're only lesbians because they're damaged goods[1].
 1. I'm sure there's a name for this trope but I'm not going to depress myself further by looking it up.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wentworth Smith on March 29, 2020, 09:03:45 AM
Does anyone know if there were issues behind the scenes?  It has that feel, too many different ideas coming together with no coherent voice. There do seem to be a high number of showrunners.

Chabon is a good writer, in novel form at least, and doesn't seem the type to have all the plot holes in his own work: add the other hacks though and you might have the answer to why it's so incoherent. Similar to Fuller and Discovery, perhaps they just didn't like the cut off his jib.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on March 29, 2020, 11:05:37 AM
https://trekmovie.com/2020/03/28/michael-chabon-answers-fan-questions-about-star-trek-picard-finale-loose-ends-season-two-and-more/

More Chabon Q&A. I reckon he set these up so he could just fill in as much shit as he could since he wasn't bothered to put together a good tv show or anything remotely Star Trek.

Glad this waste of space is mostly moving on but seeing what's coming up in series 2 I won't be watching. I'll stick to fast forwarding to cameos on the future.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on March 29, 2020, 11:32:23 AM
Quote
Was the end moment between Seven and Raffi romantic? Was there foreshadowing that I missed?

To both questions: apparently so!

Is this just an outright lie or did Chabon forget that something he's referring to was left on the cutting room floor? I re-watched the one conversation they had when they were getting ready for their failed heist on Freecloud and unless Raffi saying "I admire what you do." in response to Seven's comments about peacekeeping with the Fenris Rangers is code for "let's scissor!" there is no subtext between them.

Does anyone know if there were issues behind the scenes?  It has that feel, too many different ideas coming together with no coherent voice. There do seem to be a high number of showrunners.

One source said there were serious negative reactions to how the series looked in test screenings, and they had to do a lot of re-shooting and change the CGI. But the same source was convinced that Discovery season 3 wouldn't see the light of day, so a pinch of salt is needed. Plus I don't remember it saying anything about the writers. Problem could be that the same overall production company handling Disco, Picard, the new Section 31 series (fucking hell, btw), overseeing Lower Decks, and are allegedly doing concept work on two more Star Trek series and they're not allocating writers properly. Too many people could have their finger in more than one Star Trek pie.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: JamesTC on March 29, 2020, 03:14:06 PM
Remember when Section 31 tried to commit genocide?

Now Section 31 get their own show. The people who don't understand Star Trek are in charge of Star Trek. They think Section 31 is just a generic secret organisation. And they have a hard on for secret orginsations.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Lemming on March 29, 2020, 05:45:33 PM
As laugh out loud funny as the Seven/Raffi scene was, mostly due to being two seconds of footage that came out of literally fucking nowhere, Michelle Hurd and Jeri Ryan are clearly two of the best actors working on the show. If anyone can pull off a nonsensical, out-of-nowhere, written-by-committee romantic arc, it's them.

And yeah, Chabon apparently trying to claim it was foreshadowed is just risible. Maybe both characters looked at each other for a split second in a blurry background shot or something and we were meant to take that as expertly laying the groundwork for romance.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Piggyoioi on March 29, 2020, 07:30:47 PM
I actually can't make a coherent post about how shit this shit was. All I feel right now is, don't cry because it happened, smile because it's over.


Dogshit for simpletons
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: sirhenry on March 29, 2020, 08:27:33 PM
And yeah, Chabon apparently trying to claim it was foreshadowed is just risible. Maybe both characters looked at each other for a split second in a blurry background shot or something and we were meant to take that as expertly laying the groundwork for romance.
But he said "apparently so." as if even he had no knowledge of any foreshadowing either and had been told by the committee that there had been some.

So glad someone here mentioned The Orville earlier on. It's not great and some of the episodes are painful but it's a welcome relief from Picard and at least it has it's heart in the right place, as opposed to Picard's chew toy.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on March 29, 2020, 08:43:09 PM
So glad someone here mentioned The Orville earlier on. It's not great and some of the episodes are painful but it's a welcome relief from Picard and at least it has it's heart in the right place, as opposed to Picard's chew toy.

Have you tried Star Trek Continues? Very ropey acting (although some old Trek hands turn up here and there), but many of the stories really nail that TOS feel.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhvh2eq-XLgqNxH6npvQxGxLCUHy90IpZ
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: grainger on March 29, 2020, 09:29:08 PM
So Chabon's basically been saying that they made Picard to provoke anti-SJW twats, implying that if you think it's shit, you are one of these. He can fuck off all over again, then, as far as I'm concerned. He's deliberately made a dark, cynical show out of a warm-hearted universe, and then accused people who don't like that as being the ones who are the right-wing cynics. What a prick.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mobbd on March 30, 2020, 11:17:01 AM
No never appeared again, neither did the badges or her nervous friend, or the dynamic that they were visitors in a slightly bureaucratic-ish romulan controlled research installation.

Watching that specific scene does have a weird more polished (and comfortably boring) tone to it, since those gantry sections were amongst the initial promo photos I wonder if it's not a remnant from before the cheap as chips reshoots and greenscreen it's fairly reusable scene setting if you forget that most of the elements it introduces vanish.

Thanks for that, Zero. My mind kept returning to that scene because it was actually legible. I didn't care for the "ooh, who knew Roms could be so hot"-type dialogue but at least we knew what was going on. I was okay with the idea that these youngsters were starting a new job in a weird place: relatable. But it felt like something important was being set up that just never happened.

And that gantry Romulan had such a strong look and attitude (again, the aestethic is not my bag, but he wasn't shot as background: it really felt like we were supposed to notice him) that I expected him to be a front-line character or at least to come back and do something relatively significant. Bizarre.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on March 30, 2020, 12:37:47 PM
So Chabon's basically been saying that they made Picard to provoke anti-SJW twats,

So, basically, letting hate define him. What was the Picard speech at the end of the season about again?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Bently Sheds on March 30, 2020, 03:38:54 PM
If I was Picard, I'd be well jarred off that they put my brain in an old man body. I'd be wanting sexy 20 year old Picard body with full head hair and muscles, not liverspot wrinkle Mr Burns bod.

"We spent all our resources and sacrificed this golem so you can live. By the way, you die in 10 years."
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on March 30, 2020, 10:31:20 PM
A good way to take season 2 would be to take a look at the issues of Picard now being only "optionally mortal" and how tempted he might be to ask for more extensions than a brexit negotiator.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Wonderful Butternut on March 30, 2020, 10:45:14 PM
A good way to take season 2 would be to take a look at the issues of Picard now being only "optionally mortal" and how tempted he might be to ask for more extensions than a brexit negotiator.

Do not give them ideas.

"Hey guys... what if he puts a micro-photon torpedo launcher in his arm? We can spend our entire CGI budget on the sequence where it comes out of his arm and then rely on artistic licence with camera focus to avoid having to spend more than $2 on any CGI starship bridges we need."


Oh, do you remember the bit where they butchered Icheb to show how edgy and cool they are? There was actually on opportunity in the last episode to give that a semblance of meaning by having Seven capture Narissa instead of kill her, because she'd discovered that vapourising Bejaysus (or whatever her name was) didn't actually make the guilt about Icheb go away. But nah, too complicated, the audience clearly wanted to see Seven kick Narissa into a chasm.

Although what's the bet she somehow bullshitted her way out of that and crops up in season 2?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Sherman Krank on March 31, 2020, 01:22:39 AM
A good way to take season 2 would be to take a look at the issues of Picard now being only "optionally mortal" and how tempted he might be to ask for more extensions than a brexit negotiator just bin the cunt.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: sirhenry on March 31, 2020, 09:38:26 AM
Soji just got her dream job working on the Borg cube, but instead of jumping into the work she immediately (the day she arrived as far as I could tell) jumped into bed with a Romulan she had just met.
Was this ever explained? Was there a line from him about how he'd managed to hack into her social interaction settings and set them to Cat In Heat? If so, I missed it.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on April 03, 2020, 06:25:54 PM
Akiva Goldsman has written an Admirals log of Picard dealing with Coronavirus.

Quote
“Admiral’s Log. The quarantine stretches on. Essential systems continue to fail. And though many of us are used to long periods of isolation, the prohibition on physical contact, not to mention our inability to leave the ship, is beginning to wear on even the most seasoned members of the crew. Remote communication flourishes — still I am reminded there is no substitute for a direct gaze or the reassurance of a friendly touch. I am emboldened by the crew’s resilience. Despite the hardship, they continue to work their stations; productivity and routine can be an excellent balm on fear. And fear they do, how could they otherwise? The threat we face is real with no immediate end in sight. But that does not make it endless. On the contrary, this period of darkness will end, as surely as it began. Fear will fade to memory. We will survive, stronger, perhaps more aware of the profound connections we have always shared. And a time will come when we once again right this ship and sail forward together into the future, that bright unknown.” —Akiva Goldsman

Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mobbd on April 06, 2020, 09:40:18 AM
Akiva Goldsman has written an Admirals log of Picard dealing with Coronavirus.

Blimey, that's horrible.

I'd been meaning to look into Goldsman and find out who this numbnuts might actually be. Check it out, he's got "Worst Screenplay" Golden Raspberry noms out the wazoo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akiva_Goldsman#Filmography

Batman and Robin!!!!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mobbd on April 06, 2020, 09:43:43 AM
Batman and Robin!!!!

The Dark Tower!!! Star Trek: Discovery!!! Rings!!!

The more I look into this guy's career, the clearer it becomes that there's absolutely no such thing as meritocracy. Off to kill self now, bye.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: greenman on April 06, 2020, 09:53:27 AM
So Chabon's basically been saying that they made Picard to provoke anti-SJW twats, implying that if you think it's shit, you are one of these. He can fuck off all over again, then, as far as I'm concerned. He's deliberately made a dark, cynical show out of a warm-hearted universe, and then accused people who don't like that as being the ones who are the right-wing cynics. What a prick.

Probably one of the clearest examples we've seen so far of cynical use of politics to divert criticism of poor quality work.

Trek as a whole just seems like a cushy retirement home for a load of hacks who's film careers have all tanked and now look out for each other.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: grainger on April 06, 2020, 10:51:34 AM
Visually, I'm trying to think of what kind of Trek I would like to see, and I think fundamentally it isn't going to happen. Any big SF franchise nowadays has to be automatically charged with bombast with CG elements flying around everywhere. Star Trek was rarely terribly subtle, but I can't stand the way modern SF movies/TV look - massively busy environments, pointlessly cavernous spaces, orange floating interfaces, etc., and I think much of this aesthetic is antithetical to Trek.

TNG's ship sets look dated, of course, and I know it now gets lambasted as being "80s hotel in space", but it embodied the philosophy behind the show. Large but welcoming, hi-tech, but pleasant for the people using it. Practical (within the reality of the world's it's set in) without being oppressive. The bridges on Discovery and Picard would just feel oppressive and migraine-inducing to work in. There's no humanism there, no concern for the people actually using it[1]. At least the more utilitarian DS9 and Ent interiors made sense, as they didn't come from the utopian Federation and therefore fitted their shows well.

So I don't think any Trek show will feel utopian again, until the design aesthetic of screen SF moves on.
 1. Yes, I realise the cigar guy's ship isn't Starfleet, but all the Starfleet bridges we do see are equally horrific.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on April 06, 2020, 11:13:26 AM
I read another interview with that Chabon prick last week. He was asked about fans wanting good old episodic adventures and he said something along the lines of;

"That's what they think they want to see, but they are wrong".

Who the fuck does he think he is?
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on April 06, 2020, 01:41:32 PM
Is Chabon still involved in production? Thought he had wondered off leaving Kurtzman to it. Classic Hollywood screenwriter arrogance though.

Visually, I'm trying to think of what kind of Trek I would like to see, and I think fundamentally it isn't going to happen. Any big SF franchise nowadays has to be automatically charged with bombast with CG elements flying around everywhere. Star Trek was rarely terribly subtle, but I can't stand the way modern SF movies/TV look - massively busy environments, pointlessly cavernous spaces, orange floating interfaces, etc., and I think much of this aesthetic is antithetical to Trek.

I still don't have a good idea of what the main ship looks like, nor how it's laid out internally[1]. The whole show is just bored and disinterested VFX artists seeing how many polygons they can throw at the screen before their next contract. Doesn't help that there's some weird contact wrangling that stops them using classic designs (the few we did see, like the Ent. D hologram, were specially negotiated)

Here's the start of the Voyager episode Good Shepherd, from top deck bridge/captains ready room, to bottom deck (although, why they're carrying PADDs all over instead of using comms, who knows?[2])
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ud8HJgUoQs

Not to mention the famous turbolift scene in TOS that follows the layout of the ship.
 1. I'm guessing the med bay is either behind the warp core, or off to the side. Either way, it must be at the top, because of the sun roof. But then that must make it on a higher floor than the main bridge/store room area which seems to cover two levels...?
 2. Dramatic licence!
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Malcy on April 06, 2020, 03:22:30 PM
He's staying on as executive producer along with the other dozen of them.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Cloud on April 06, 2020, 03:26:43 PM
I read another interview with that Chabon prick last week. He was asked about fans wanting good old episodic adventures and he said something along the lines of;

"That's what they think they want to see, but they are wrong".

Who the fuck does he think he is?

One of those who thinks they're Henry Ford with the "if I'd asked what people wanted they'd have said a faster horse" logic.

SHEER FUCKING HUBRIS
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: grainger on April 06, 2020, 08:45:04 PM
I don't have a problem with it not being episodic. I have a problem with it being mean-spirited, unimaginative and shit.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Nobody Soup on April 07, 2020, 01:48:39 AM
I feel like I have a lot to say about this but I can't be bothered putting my thoughts into coherent words.

And given neither could the writers of this show that seems fine.

Felt like they had a few good ideas (corruption, rescued borg cube) and wanted a few cameos and call backs and just shoe horned them into a half arsed plot. All the new characters were god awful.

Major take home from the series is that 7 of 9 would have been the more interesting subject of a spin off than Picard farting about.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mango Chimes on April 07, 2020, 11:40:56 AM
I've not watched any of this, other than YouTube clips, including one where Riker appears an his armada of a million ships, that look to come out of hyperspace rather than warp, and he says something as fanfic as "Hey, I'm gonna kick your sorry Romulan ass!" and Old Man Picard sounds like he's happy to see his son visit him in a care home. It looks like a parody.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mobbd on April 07, 2020, 08:16:09 PM
Dogshit for simpletons

Good quote for the DVD box art there.

And going on some of the reviews on IMDB, it might be one of the better quotes they get.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mobbd on April 14, 2020, 03:00:21 PM
Let the healing begin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao99bNrJ_1Q
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: mothman on April 30, 2020, 10:28:08 PM
I started this thread, so I thought I might as well check in on it and add a comment.

Ooof, that was painful. But it’s over now and I can get on with my life. Maybe there’ll be a second season, if we get past the current unpleasantness and - though I hate to say it, he seems hale & hearty but he is almost in his 80s - Patrick Stewart lasts that long.

Now, I’m a Trek starships nerd, so as you can imagine I’m feeling a bit short-changed. One new class - or rather one design, two sub-classes: there are two different nacelle designs. And according to Chabon’s Q&A, originally there were going to be four different ship designs in Riker’s fleet, but time & money meant they rushed it.[1]

RUSHED IT?! This was a fucking CBSAA & Amazon Prime flagship series! The level of promotion it’s received has been immense. And yet when it gets to the final episode, they’re all like, “Meh, it’ll do.”

That to me just says it all about a lot of Star Trek, not just this recent stuff. There’s a lot of by-the-numbers plotting, often literally - there have been some great scenes written for various instalments over the years, which either weren’t filmed for budgetary reasons or were cut for timing, and character development be damned. If you read (the late) Michael PIller’s book about the making of ST: Insurrection, it’s an absolute shitshow of a production. The script was complete by-the-numbers, a collection of plot points with no real interest in an overarching story they actually want to tell.

Sometimes by-the-numbers can work. ST:FC went through a similarly torturous writing process, first having them battling the Borg in mediaeval Italy and then when they did settle on a timeframe, originally Picard had the Earth-based plot line (actually pretending to be Zefram Cochrane) while Riker battled the Borg on the Enterprise. And yet the end result is in my (and many others’) top 3 Trek films. TNG ep “Yesterday’s Enterprise” took about a dozen people to write and it’s regarded as one of the best episodes of ANY Trek outing.

I'm not giving up on Trek. I don't get out much these days anyway (and even less so right now) so I can watch the new stuff and probably always will. It's not at the point where I can't be bothered at all - yet. I had high hopes for the Tarantino film, and have transferred that to the Hawley effort. Disco s3 will happen. The cartoons will happen. The S31 show might happen. A Pike show might happen (this I'd welcome, but I suspect Kurtzman & co will still fuck it up). But it's disappointing: I'm bingeing Halt And Catch Fire right now, have just finished Better Call Saul s5, both are light years better than any Trek since at least ST: Enterprise. Westworld may be a real Marmite show but I challenge even those who din't like it to say it's worse than DSC or PIC.
 1. If there had been four new designs, people would still have been carping about the lack of older vessels, true. But the big space battle at the start of ST: First Contact was built mainly around four new ship designs (not counting the Enterprise-E), with cameo appearances by TOS-movie & TNG ships, and it’s a fan favourite sequence and those new designs were really popular. I have the Eaglemoss models of all four on my bookshelf.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Default to the negative on April 30, 2020, 11:26:12 PM
I thought it was watchable fluff, best viewed through beer goggles. It's very much a 'turn your brain off' show which can't withstand any level scrutiny. I don't regret watching it but I fully understand why it pissed many people off. If you like your Trek to be a little bit philosophical and give you something to ponder, and if you insist that your Trek must, well, make sense, then you are going to find Picard obnoxious.

Let the healing begin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao99bNrJ_1Q

This seems excessive. Mike already spent close to 4 hours discussing this season with Rich. What is there left for Plinkett to say? I'm expecting a series of comparisons of clips from TNG and PIC, with him pointing out the dislocations between the two. 'Remember when in Next Gen Picard said THAT thing? Well in the new show he says THIS thing instead - which is completely inconsistent!' Repeat one hundred times.

Still, I suppose this is theraputic for Mike and he needs to get it out of his system. He's always been very anal about TNG.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: idunnosomename on May 01, 2020, 01:24:56 AM
i just hope it has plinkett having a massive uncontrolled and extended bowel discharge in the direction of alex kurtzman
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: JamesTC on May 01, 2020, 02:01:42 PM
Turns out cigars were not worth giving up.  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7mmjxkL5X0)Sorry Twain.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Kelvin on May 19, 2020, 07:34:55 AM
Plinkett review is up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwF1iri1GjQ&t=0s

It's terrible; interminably dull, goes over mostly the same ground as they already covered, but with too much focus on listing the plot failings, and not enough analysis of the fundamental issues at the heart of the problem. Worst of all, it's just not very funny; the very definition of sarcasm being the lowest form of wit. I'm not going to say he needed Rich to bounce off, but I certainly feel like he would have been better off just focusing on the last few episode that they never got round to covering together. As it stands, it doesn't feel like he had enough new points to make.   
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Deanjam on May 19, 2020, 06:53:28 PM
I enjoyed it. Yes there's some repetition, but it does go into those final parts that they didn't cover, so was worth a watch. Mike just seems so depressed at what Trek has become that I don't think he finds much humour to be had in it.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: idunnosomename on May 19, 2020, 11:59:43 PM
it's ok. poor old mike. when "gay" picard throws his hat away and... ok let's spoiler to be nice the generic pot break for the Kurlan naiskos plays made me guffaw
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Mobbd on May 20, 2020, 10:08:34 AM
Yeah, I liked it. It's not as funny as some of his other Plinkett Reviews but I guess it's hard to be hilarious when you're genuinely upset an angry about the subject matter; also when there's not much juice in the thing you're trying to dehydrate to begin with. Good old Mike.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Johnny Textface on May 21, 2020, 12:15:22 AM
I've not seen any Picard and watched about 20 mins of the plinkett review. Hope someone is happy about this.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Hey, Punk! on May 21, 2020, 03:30:53 AM
I wish that this preference for the dark and serious wasn't mistook for maturity or importance. It just shows a poor utopian imagination, the idea of utopia was the joy of classic Sci-Fi and Star Trek.

Anyone can create a dystopia, it takes a real visionary to dare to create a world they'd like to live in. This is something that Sci-Fi, as yet relatively untouched by the smug centrist semi-nihilists, still has the potential to foster.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: JamesTC on May 22, 2020, 05:57:33 PM
Mike has spoken favourably on Voyager and I seem to remember he said he liked the last season of Enterprise when discussing Trek with Rich on the MacCulkin's podcast. He seemed a little cold on DS9 whereas in this review he seems more favourable on it. I wonder if Shit Trek has made him reevaluate Old Trek that he didn't previously think as highly of.
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: idunnosomename on May 22, 2020, 10:16:08 PM
alex kurtzman looks like a fucking mannequin
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: idunnosomename on May 28, 2020, 12:41:02 AM
just a reminder of the lovely freddie williams "and a glass of wine" storyboards that also made the RLM video worthwhile

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZD5Ps3XQBAsi0K?format=jpg&name=large)
Title: Re: Star Trek - Picard show
Post by: Blumf on May 28, 2020, 12:58:43 AM
just a reminder of the lovely freddie williams...

Oh... oooooooooooh, him

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63hZoT6hQr4