Reading The Bible (and other scripture)

[Petey Pate]

Recently read this amusing review of the Christian holy book by Mark Ames of the Radio War Nerd podcast.

https://web.archive.org/web/20210801015818/http://www.exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=6791&IBLOCK_ID=35

It made me realise that I have little knowledge of what's actually in The Bible besides the stuff that you get taught as a child (Garden of Eden, Noah's Ark, etc) and what Andrew Lloyd Webber likes writing musicals about. I'm not as familiar with all the genocidal stuff in the Old Testament as well as how much of the New Testament is devoted to blaming Jews for the crucifixion of Jesus.

So has anyone on here actually read The Bible cover to cover? Are there any bits in it which hold up as a literary work? How does it compare to the Koran or other scripture?

[Petey Pate]

As an addendum, I just remembered this fascinating piece in the London Review of Books, which covers in depth the various translations of the 'forbidden fruit' story in Genesis and the origins of Christian misogyny.

https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v40/n05/anne-enright/the-genesis-of-blame

[Clive Dogshit]

CaB's favourite bit from the Bible

He went up from there to Bethel, and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, "Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!" And he turned around, and when he saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. And two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys.

[Clive Dogshit]

wish God would've sent bears that time a kid went past me on a bike and shouted "alright baldy"

[touchingcloth]

My parents are big Chrizzos, and I used to be one. I've never read it cover to cover like a novel, but I've probably read most of the Old Testament, and I've read the New through a couple of times.

The Old Testament is fascinating in places from an anthropological point of view, and has some more playful bits which are like the Tesco Value versions of the Arabian Nights. Half of it is lists, though, and having had a quick search for resources which list the lists it looks like there's a gap in the market for this. I'll run it by my publishers.

The New Testament is patent nonsense written by Jesus's hypemen with an agenda to push their new religion. It's worth reading in the King James version because the language is beautiful and so much of it is influential on modern culture, but it's, ironically enough, not a good book. The best thing is to read around the New Testament, because there's a lot of really interesting scholarly work trying to unpick what the sources for the books were, which order they were written in, when they were written, whether they influenced one another, and whether they were altered after the fact.

Bart Ehrman is a good author to read if you're coming from the angle of an interested atheist rather than trying to bolster your faith. Something like Misquoting Jesus contains enough reference to the scriptures that you can jump into specific passages if they pique your interest.

[bgmnts]

Presumably we need to specify which The Bible we're on about: King James? New American Standard? English Standard Version? Wycliffe?

[Pranet]

At some point during covid I decided to read the Bible.

King James, because I had a copy and also because I wanted to read the version most of the people who had written literature for the past 400 years would have been familiar with.

In terms of readability not a great decision- I sometimes, when I could be arsed, had to look up bits of it online so I could work out what the heck was going on. Sometimes I didn't bother.

Also the type on the bible I was reading was very small.

I've read a few old or classical texts or chronicles (in translation) and large chunks of the Old Testament reminded me of that, because, I suppose, that is what it is.

The prophets get really tedious.

The start of the New Testament is like a breath of fresh air when you reach- stories about a relatively relatable person. I honestly wonder if that helped confirm some reader's faith- it is a relief when you are slogging through the bastard thing, and when you don't have that many other books to read, it might have had an even bigger effect.

Does make you realise why some Christians are so fucked up, all the mad old testament shit.

But I don't really have any great insights into it. I did wonder at the start if a big light was going to off in my head at some point and I'd convert but it didn't happen.

Oh and it put me off reading for a bit, physically. For a while after finishing it when I tried to read I could feel my body trying to pull away, like the act of reading recalled some deep seated trauma.

Still, I've read the fucker cover to cover.

[Mr Vegetables]

The Book of Job is well good, and feels a bit like it's been put into the Bible by mistake. Ecclesiastes also does, but I like the human element of Job, as he loses his children and cows. The way he refuses to accept banal comforts about the goodness of God is pretty powerful given the book he is in

I found 1 Corinthians really powerful the last time I heard it recited, as well. And the sheer relentlessness with which Jesus challenges people who think they might be good enough for the Kingdom of Heaven is quite something, too.

Honestly I wish I was a Christian; the powerful stuff that's in there is legitimately powerful to me. But it's not exactly something I can accept as fact

[touchingcloth]

Honestly I wish I was a Christian; the powerful stuff that's in there is legitimately powerful to me. But it's not exactly something I can accept as fact

None of it's original, though, and the enlightened bits like The Golden Rule existed before Jesus.

I'd LOVE to have visited Jerusalem around the Roman/Second Temple period. By all accounts there was a messiah on every street corner, Life of Brian style, and when you know the history of that period you can see why they had sprung up.

There are absolutely bits in there that you can use to support a good and moral life, but having grown up in the church half of that stuff is ignored and other bits of it are used to support decidedly non-moral views.

[dontpaintyourteeth]

What IS the best religion? There's only one way to find out.

[Lemming]

I used to read extracts of my grandma's (King James) as a kid. I thought it was naff honestly. Every time an interesting idea comes up it's over in a flash, then it's back to lists of shit nobody cares about. The most entertainment me and my cousins got out of it was reading it out in a variety of funny accents to aggro granny.

We gravitated towards the Old Testament because it's a bit more surreal and fantasy-ish for the most part. The Tower of Babel massively interested me at the time. Partly because I'd already played the Doom map of the same name and thought there may be a connection, but also because it's just a really great fantasy idea, both the tower itself and the subsequent language-scrambling-bullshit. But, like everything interesting in the Bible, it's relegated to a small paragraph and is quickly abandoned in favour of the usual mind-numbingly tedious shit that constitutes the book, like vague records of ancient battles that may or may not have occurred, and long lists. You could have had a whole short story about the Tower of Babel. Though I'm still not sure what the message is, exactly - other than that god really hates humans and loves to fuck with them whenever they try and do anything, which is a recurring theme.

Remember finding the story of Lot grimly and unintentionally hilarious too. The horny gay rapists besiege his house, and Lot, as the good guy we're meant to consider a paragon of virtue and a role model, throws his daughters at them so that they can be brutalised instead. God's fine with this, delighted even, but then he later decides to murder Lot's wife for the crime of rotating her neck in a way that displeased him. Rape (as long as it's of women, not men) is fine, but turning your head slightly is verboten and the punishment is death. That's not even getting into the subsequent bit where Lot's daughters, being Devious Women, decide to rape their own dad. Bit of a shit book overall.

Also, not an original observation by any means (people were already making it in the first century AD), but: Eve is very obviously in the right when she eats the Forbidden Fruit, and the serpent is right to offer it to her. One of many bizarre parts in the book where the god character seems to be clearly the antagonist who behaves in constantly petulant and violent ways for no good reason, but the writers seemingly intend you to take his side.

My brother is convinced that the destruction of Sodom is an ancient account of a nuclear weapon being detonated, and that "turning to salt" is ancient people trying their best to explain what they saw when someone was vaporised by a shockwave. The fact that this is insane doesn't put him off the theory at all. Other than that, the best thing the Bible has contributed to humanity is the song "Rivers of Babylon" by Boney M.

[Mr Vegetables]

I think the message of the Tower of Babel is just "this is why there are different languages," and I've heard it suggested Lot's wife is "this is how that pillar of salt got there." They wouldn't necessarily have had a moral intention, intent for historical analysis, or desire to tell a genre story in conventions that were still thousands of years away.

I'm reading John Barton's History of the Bible at the moment, and it's good at just saying "a lot of the contextual assumptions that have been made about all this might be wrong, because they were assumptions people didn't even notice. Apparently he is still a Christian, and it's interesting to see him just plainly say that a lot of the Bible might be boring or worthless to us today.

[JesusAndYourBush]

A couple of years ago in the back of cupboard I found a book I'd had since I was a kid, a big hardback book of the Bible for kids.  I flipped through and read a bit then decided to read the whole thing.  It was really good.  They'd taken out a lot of the silly stuff so the whole thing read like a history book.  It made me realise that the Old Testament is mainly a history book with a bit of guff added by the church.  I might get  around to reading a proper - full version - at some time, but that served as a good primer.

And no it doesn't hold up as a literary work. It's a translation of a translation of a translation, some versions can be as clunky as hell but that would vary depending on the translation.  I'd suspect the more beautifully written it is, the further it is from the original - because of the artistic licence given to make it so.

[bgmnts]

None of it's original, though, and the enlightened bits like The Golden Rule existed before Jesus.

Is there such a notion of forgiveness and 'he who is without sin' in any of the other religions and philosophies practiced before Jesus?

God was knocking off entire cities and civilisations out of pathetic rage in the previous bible, so I feel like proper forgiveness may have been a new thing.

[touchingcloth]

Is there such a notion of forgiveness and 'he who is without sin' in any of the other religions and philosophies practiced before Jesus?

God was knocking off entire cities and civilisations out of pathetic rage in the previous bible, so I feel like proper forgiveness may have been a new thing.

Buddhism sidesteps the issue by teaching that you shouldn't even get angry in the first place, which in some ways is a better approach than the idea that anger is justified but that the moral thing is to suck it up and ignore it.

[All Surrogate]

I've read it. Smeraldina Rima started a really nice thread, that includes my thoughts.

[Mister Six]

Also, not an original observation by any means (people were already making it in the first century AD), but: Eve is very obviously in the right when she eats the Forbidden Fruit, and the serpent is right to offer it to her. One of many bizarre parts in the book where the god character seems to be clearly the antagonist who behaves in constantly petulant and violent ways for no good reason, but the writers seemingly intend you to take his side.

Well you've heard of the phrase "God-fearing", right? Old Testament God is basically a deranged, homicidal force who demands absolute unquestioning loyalty and fealty from his people. Probably because the people who made him up lived in a horrible, brutal time full of human terror and naturally occurring misery, so obviously if you're going for a god who's singular and all-powerful (rather than a pantheon of quirky characters representing different facets of human existence/the natural world) he's going to be a bit scary. Plus, it helps the priests keep the plebs in line.

The along comes a charismatic rogue rabbi who wants everyone to stop being horrible pieces of shit to one another, builds up a proper following and gets treated as an all-new, feel-good reboot of God Himself. So now the people writing the holy books have to twist and contort to make this nice guy a continuation of the homicidal lunatic of 3,000 years prior.

Classic case of a belated sequel written by people who didn't get why the original was so good.

[wrec]

Oh and it put me off reading for a bit, physically.

I love that reading it not only didn't result in a religious epiphany but put you off reading.

The Tower of Babel massively interested me at the time. Partly because I'd already played the Doom map of the same name and thought there may be a connection, but also because it's just a really great fantasy idea, both the tower itself and the subsequent language-scrambling-bullshit. But, like everything interesting in the Bible, it's relegated to a small paragraph and is quickly abandoned in favour of the usual mind-numbingly tedious shit that constitutes the book, like vague records of ancient battles that may or may not have occurred, and long lists. You could have had a whole short story about the Tower of Babel. Though I'm still not sure what the message is, exactly - other than that god really hates humans and loves to fuck with them whenever they try and do anything, which is a recurring theme.

You must check out Ted Chiang's amazing novella Tower of Babylon.

I think the point of the original legend was the big fella sadistically punishing humanity for their hubris. Actually most of the Old Testament is that, isn't it.

Regarding selective interpretations of the scripture, there's one bit I remember being taught that I've since learned is a common take.

"I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Seems unambiguous. But! Supposedly a narrow mountain pass was colloquially referred to as an "eye of a needle", meaning that JC was just saying it's a bit difficult but far from impossible. I came across an analysis somewhere explaining that this is bollox and historically there was no such phrase.

is anyone familiar with the Apocrypha? I remember someone here saying there are books where as a child Jesus slays kids who annoy him. Need to know more about that!

[Pranet]

I think that is the Infancy Gospel of Thomas.

When I finished reading the Bible I did consider starting on the Apocryphal books, but then I realised how many there are. I liken it to, after watching all of the Doctor Who tv series, deciding to consume all of the ancillary media- films, comic strips, novels, Big Finish, odd online things, fan films.

I do listen to the Apocrypals podcast which covers a lot of Apocryphal books- that is how I knew about the Gospel of Thomas. But I can't really heartily recommend it. It is ok but it one of the podcasts I save for days when I am in a bad mood which isn't going to improve so I don't want to waste on something enjoyable.

[Twonty Gostelow]

Wycliffe?

[bgmnts]

The best gospel!

Has anyone read the Gnostic Judas stuff? From what I've read about it, that seems one of the most interesting new testament gospels.

[Red82]

Jesus seems like a good cunt. They say the man himself existed but that's a whole argument.  His message quite obviously got co-opted  and changed by the powerful at some point in the last two thousand years

[Marbles]

The whole eye-of-a-needle debate really bugs me 'cos JC's meaning is totally clear:

The lead-in to the Needle Bit is a rich dude who comes up asking what he should do to have eternal life, & after a little back-and-forth Jesus finally says to him: ""If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me".
But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions."

No splitting fucking hairs there.

Anyway, I haven't read the bible all through, but I have enjoyed the King James Virgin podcast taking me through it (where 2 ex-Christians take their bemused secular friend through a random tour of the KJV)
https://www.kingjamesvirgin.com/

[convulsivespace]

It's an amazing book, both as a work of literature (really an arbitrary collection of a bunch of different works of literature) and as a historical document at the foundation of Western civilization. I was not raised Christian and I wonder if the people saying it's not a good read were and thus understandably find it more difficult to approach without the associated baggage.

It's a far stranger book than I would have expected or that people who are taught it through a doctrinal church perspective really understand. For example, there are so many artifacts in the first few books of the Old Testament of a polytheistic worldview in which Yahweh was just one god among many.

[bgmnts]

It's an amazing book, both as a work of literature (really an arbitrary collection of a bunch of different works of literature) and as a historical document at the foundation of Western civilization.

Not 100% sure but I can't imagine many historians would look to the bible for historical accuracy in terms of events.

[convulsivespace]

Not 100% sure but I can't imagine many historians would look to the bible for historical accuracy in terms of events.

Of course not. I mean the intellectual history of Western civilization. Perhaps I should have said sociological document.

[touchingcloth]

is anyone familiar with the Apocrypha? I remember someone here saying there are books where as a child Jesus slays kids who annoy him. Need to know more about that!

Pullman's The Good Man Jesus and the Scoundrel Christ is based on this sort of thing. It takes some of the apocrypha and imagines that Jesus and Christ were twins who had different levels of morality, with Jesus being the one who went to learn scripture with the priests and Christ was the tear away who called Mary a cunt. It's similar to that theory that the OT god is actually an amalgam of gods from different cultures - a Yahweh, and Elohim, a Cthulhu.

[Video Game Fan 2000]

CaB's favourite bit from the Bible

i can't think of this without thinking the mum of one of those teenagers being all nagging to her boy "where you are going? what's that smirk? you're going out to taunt the prophet of the lord again, aren't you?"

then he comes home with one arm and half his face gone "what did i tell you? bears, was it? wait until your father sees this!"

[Clive Dogshit]

i can't think of this without thinking the mum of one of those teenagers being all nagging to her boy "where you are going? what's that smirk? you're going out to taunt the prophet of the lord again, aren't you?"

then he comes home with one arm and half his face gone "what did i tell you? bears, was it? wait until your father sees this!"

I also like how at least 42 kids have all turned up to call this guy a bald bastard. Must have been a school trip or something.

[checkoutgirl]

Buddhism sidesteps the issue by teaching that you shouldn't even get angry in the first place

Buddhism says you shouldn't really engage in normal human life at all doesn't it?