Welsh Independence

[bgmnts]

This was on the news earlier and it got me thinking, are there actually any large groups of peoplr who would even want Welsh independence? Corbyn was in Machynlleth saying he qouldn't be a barrier to discussion, so I suppose he either isn't arsed or is so confident it would never happen he is just saying it.

Would anyone here vote for it in a referendum just for a giggle? I think I would, these English cunts need to fuck off back where they come from, Bristol or Hereford or wherever.

What about you English cunts on here? Would you want Welsh Independence?

[Cuellar]

Might as well

[imitationleather]

Would be funny watching how much of a car crash it is.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Depending on Brexit and the SNPs fortunes, the Welsh could end up in a similar constitutional position with England to where Montenegro were with Serbia, which makes independence inevitable.

What that means for the Welsh is a whole other thing. A bit of tub thumping and then get bored and team up with other countries again to achieve more.

[Fambo Number Mive]

Welsh independence is up to the Welsh really, personally I think England, Scotland and Wales as independent countries but with EU style freedom of movement, trade and travel between the three would be a good idea. Northern Ireland is more difficult as whether it was part of the UK or ROI a large amount of its people would be unhappy.

[Cuellar]

Could the UK force it on the Welsh (or indeed Scottish)?

"actually you know what? Get out"

[Zetetic]

Generally frowned upon for states to unilaterally eject parts of themselves, as its essentially a state abandoning its duties to its citizens.

are there actually any large groups of peoplr who would even want Welsh independence?

Yes, in the context of a country of about 3 million people.

[Zetetic]

The major problem that Wales continue to face is that has barely any functioning civic society.

Its universities, third sector and 'policy institutes' or 'think tanks' (urgh) are almost all utterly bound up with Welsh Government. It has barely any media of its own, old or new, to speak of. At the same time it's constantly flooded with the output of England-centric Westminster-based organisations.

These aren't an inevitable consequence of being small. Compare with Scotland or even Northern Ireland. Compare with Iceland, Norway or Denmark. Compare with Alabama, if you like.

[Zetetic]

team up with other countries again to achieve more.

What does this mean?

(I'm fairly sure that the burn unit network could survive Welsh independence, for example.)

[biggytitbo]

Support for Welsh independence amongst actual Welsh people is extremely low, hardly makes double figures most of the time. It's not like in Scotland, where it wavers between 40-50%.

I was thinking about this the other day whilst I was having a poo - isn't it funny how Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP would take Scotland out of the UK on 50.1% of the vote, more than happy to ignore the 49.9% who wished to remain, whilst simultaneously constantly whining that the 2016 Brexit referendum ignores 1.6m Scottish people who voted to stay - significantly less than voted no in the independence referendum in 2014 she refuses to accept.

I mean I support independence for whoever wants it, but the SNP are relentlessly full of shit.

[Spiteface]

Welsh nationalism is pretty much plastering "CYMRU AM BYTH" over your Facebook picture during Rubgy season. That's it.

Welsh pride is so fucking half-arsed. It's also the sole reason for any interest in the fucking Stereophonics.

[chveik]

great idea young bgmnts, I'd vote for it if I could.

[H-O-W-L]

I'm English so naturally I say we nuke the cunts.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

a state abandoning its duties to its citizens

The Tory government are quite good at that

[pigamus]

There's a bit of a north/south divide as well. When I was a student in Cardiff I lived with a guy from Bangor, and he was always a bit Considerably Welsher Than Thou. The South Walians aren't that bothered - they're all basically Charlotte Church, chicken with lines on, they don't give a fuck.

[PlanktonSideburns]

south wales: not arsed about anything stamp on my neck if you like, whatever

north wales: arsed about everything, for better or for worse

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

But it's going to be insignificant what the % support is if we wind up with Scotland leaving and N.I potentially to follow, with all that entails. Wales won't hang around in a United Kingdom containing England and Wales for too long, it's not the ECB.

[bgmnts]

Dunno about not arsed about anything, they feel strongly about the EU. That adds an extra bit of fun to the idea, Wales would gain independence from the UK and still leave the EU, where I think Scotland and Ireland would stay in the EU.


Wales would be an incredible experience if it were out of the UK AND the EU. Biblical stuff.

[pigamus]

No, sorry, I meant "not arsed" in terms of the whole question of Welshness and Welsh identity and the language and independence and all that stuff. It seemed to me at the time - and bear in mind I was young and English and clueless - it seemed to me a reaction against slightly pompous North Walians who seemed to look down their noses at them a bit for not being Welsh enough.

[biggytitbo]

Dunno about not arsed about anything, they feel strongly about the EU. That adds an extra bit of fun to the idea, Wales would gain independence from the UK and still leave the EU, where I think Scotland and Ireland would stay in the EU.

Wales voted to leave the EU by a larger percentage than the UK as a whole.

[idunnosomename]

wales is nonsense. ever been stuck driving through it and you can't get Radio 4 or even 3 but you can always get BBC Cymru which is 50% bands singing in Welsh, that language made up in the early 20thc as part of the nationalist episode at that time

Sad really. they even think it's acceptable to stick a great big fucking dragon on their flag, like fucking LARPers. give a rest

edit: im a racist and im cancelled as of this post

[pigamus]

Apropos of the places you've never been thread, if you've never been to Cardiff, go. I loved it and miss it. I wish I'd stayed and had a career there, but my fiancee at the time was obsessed with all things London, so I went along with that and it was a hideous disaster. Ah well.

[Zetetic]

There's a bit of a north/south divide as well.

Practically, as well as anything else. Travelling from one to the other goes via England. There's no vaguely specialist public service that, setting aside the madness of England these days, doesn't make more sense to provide from Manchester or Liverpool to North Wales than from anywhere in the south.


West South Wales is also clearly quite different from the Valleys, and the Valleys(+Newport+Bridgend+Swansea?)/Cardiff divide is the Britain-wide town/city-divide compressed and exaggerated.

[Zetetic]

Wales voted to leave the EU by a larger percentage than the UK as a whole.

Although this doesn't tell you very much, given that Wales shows much the same divide on the issue as England did. (And indeed Scotland, even the average was tweaked over a few points in that case.)

What is interesting is to compare how broken British engagement with European politics is with how broken Welsh engagement with Welsh politics. There are parallels in terms of accountability, in terms of media coverage, and so on.

[hummingofevil]

I follow this all closely.

The key issue at the moment is that the Yes Cymru movement is modelling itself on the SNP version of a civil and inclusive nationalism that is distinct from the awful Tory cunt-led Westminster. The idea itself is not without merit but it does seem to be that a lot of the young, idealistic (and generally decent human beings) around the Yes Cymru movement are in denial about the vast swathes of Brexit Party / Tory cunt vote that is gradually sweeping west. It's bleak as fuck. That Wrexham has a Tory council and is a key target seat for Tories (it was expected to go blue last time) is utterly depressing.

You then get the issue of the language. The nationalist movement will always be tied up with the pro-cymraeg movement and whilst anyone who questions any aspect of any Welsh speaker to engage with any aspect of their lives in Welsh can go fuck themselves (I weep watching Welsh speakers arguing with Brexit Party types banging on about road signs and wasted money - just tell them to get fucked and block - it's a basic right). However, where this does become a problem is that there becomes a sliding scale of Welshness. The issue is less that Welsh speakers are shitty about non-speakers (in my experience that is very, very rare) but that non-speakers feel a bit inferior if they don't. It's why Welsh language primary schools are so popular. People trying to reclaim a their heritage and identity. I am learning.

The economic argument is pretty simple in that most people think Wales would struggle outside of the UK system but the independence argument is that it is already one of the poorest parts of Europe so the current model certainly isn't working. People talk about water and renewables in the same way the Scottish talked about oil. Do the numbers add up? No idea but I certainly think there is something in the argument that when there was coal or water to be shifted out, the relevent infrastructure couldn't get built quick enough but, on balanace, we get fuck all these days. It's a running anecdote but look at travelling the 45 miles from Aberystwyth t to Carmarthen by public tranpost. The bus can take up to 4 hours and the train goes via Birmingham. It really is mental.

As for political arguments I think it is actually more likely for the Senedd to be abolished than independence happening. It is dreadful at promoting any good work it does and basically anyone outside of Cardiff sees it as a Cardiff-centric vanity project that only funds nice things for the politicians in Cardiff Bay. I would say this is North South thing (again we are geographically isolated) I have recently heard if from people from Swansea, Llanelli, the Valleys.... etc.

Finally, where this really gets messy is with the whole "hate the English" thing. It is undeniable that some of the absolute worse human beings I have ever met are English-only speaking Welsh people who lived through the propaganda of speaking Cymraeg makes you stupid in two languages and, more recently, that speaking it is a vanity project. Where this gets depressing is when people then blame "the English" for this attitude when it is fellow Welsh who are the worst. It just creates another layer of infighting and arguing.

Edit: there is a genuine issue of migration patterns meaning Wales loses it's smartest young people and gains older retired people (and more recently prisons) coming the other way. That is an issue that really does need addressing but it needs to be done in the same way you would get in any desirable second-home area where locals are priced out of housing. It really isn't helpful to mix this up with any broader attempts to blame The English for Wales' problems. I saw one argument last week that anti-Muslim sentiment in Wales was an English import which, is quite frankly, bollocks. Yes there is white flight, especially from the midlands but there are plenty of racist attitudes awaiting them. It does Wales not benefit to outsource responsibility for it's own issues.

And speaking of which a dynamic that is misunderstood outside of Wales is that fans of the football team tend to be more pro-independence than rugby fans. I'm football and always have been but there is quite a bit of sniping from certain sections of football fans towards the perceived pro-United Kingdom, British Lion loving, Prince of Wales feathers on badge,  daffodil hat wearing rugby fans who go watch rugby 5 times a year at The Millenium. Not sure how much truth there is in it but it's another reason to all fall out. The #TogetherStronger motto of Coleman's 2016 wasn't just a slogan it was actually a means of bringing Cardiff-Swansea, North-South, East-West, Cymraeg-English altogether as previously we all fucking loathed each other. Giggs is going to do a pretty good job of fucking that up but in the meantime a lot of the bile is simply aimed at the egg-chuckers instead.

Any questions?

[Zetetic]

It is dreadful at promoting any good work it does

What examples do you think there are of this?

I'd genuinely struggle to go far beyond:
- Retaining bursaries (which is just not doing something stupid).
- Free prescriptions (which is just going back to not doing something stupid).
- Mostly ending private provision in the NHS (which is going back to not doing something stupid - and doesn't include specialist MH&LD hospitals)
- Plastic bag tax a few years early (which is basically nothing)

Part of this is that the Senedd is almost impotent. Its budget - and any increases to it - are dominated by the health and education bits of the block grant, and you can't fiddle much with either of those.

[hummingofevil]

What examples do you think there are of this?

I'd genuinely struggle to go far beyond:
- Retaining bursaries (which is just not doing something stupid).
- Free prescriptions (which is just going back to not doing something stupid).
- Mostly ending private provision in the NHS (which is going back to not doing something stupid - and doesn't include specialist MH&LD hospitals)
- Plastic bag tax a few years early (which is basically nothing)

Well you have given four straight away. :)

In Wrexham the town centre is on it's arse. Half of it is boarded up and it is a ghost town most days. The Assembly has been quite proactive with using Arts funding to diversify the use of the available spaces in the town but it's badly promoted as a postive (yes Wrexham people love nothing more than to moan about Wrexham being shit but they have done SOMETHING).

Contrast that with the new 50mph speed limit on bypass around the town (brought in due to Welsh Gov losing a court case brought against them for air pollution levels) and everyone will tell you "it's just another stupid money-making idea from Cardiff".

---

My broader point was more that there are some in the independence movement that seem to be indenial that people outside of their bubble think this way. You know the post-Brexit attack will be coming (it is already Brexit Party policy to abolish the Senedd) and it is not enough for nationalists just to assume it will continue because morally it is the right thing to do. Now maybe getting rid of the Labour Party from it might be a start but people don't see it that way. Labour and the Welsh government have become fused together as one.

[pigamus]

The issue is less that Welsh speakers are shitty about non-speakers (in my experience that is very, very rare) but that non-speakers feel a bit inferior if they don't. It's why Welsh language primary schools are so popular. People trying to reclaim a their heritage and identity. I am learning.

Well all my experiences are twenty years out of date, but from what I remember it was less that they felt inferior and more that they occasionally had to deal with slightly pompous types - they were all from Bangor, for some reason, they all knew each other, and they could be very, VERY obnoxious - who tried to make them feel that way, and they ostentatiously refused to rise to it. That's basically the "not arsedness" I was talking about - not so much "I don't care" as "I'm not playing this game with you, fuck off".  But like I said, I was young and English and out of my depth with it.

[canadagoose]

I'm personally happy either way. If Wales wants independence, good for them. If they don't, that's cool too. I really hope they decide to stay in the EU if they do get independence, but that's their business.

If it's of any interest, being on holiday in Nefyn did feel like being in a foreign country, mainly because of the language. I could get RTE better than I could get Channel 4 as well, so that was odd. Nice place anyway.

[Zetetic]

...the Assembly has been quite proactive with using Arts funding to diversify the use of the available spaces in the town but it's badly promoted as a postive

And my immediate reaction to this is that this barely policy or government - it's money that happens to have been funnelled via Welsh Government.

(I assume via Welsh Government, not the Assembly, but that in itself shows the inability to even talk about the institutions reliably.)

Labour and the Welsh government have become fused together as one.

Mmm.