That video of the soldiers doing a Maria Carey tribute act.

[biggytitbo]

All I said was it'd better if there were some dead foreigners hanging in the background and I've had nothing but abuse on YouTube since. Bloody fascists. It's almost as if criticism of the armed forces were some kind of taboo in this country...I can't think why.

[Zero Gravitas]

ooh! Look at the big man!

[biggytitbo]

Haha OK I admit it, the abuse on YouTube make me feel so very happy. Are you satisfied now?


The abuse on here wasn't enough for me so I had to escalate it to a global level.

[Zero Gravitas]

Just disappointed.

[Danger Man]

It's almost as if criticism of the armed forces were some kind of taboo in this country...I can't think why.

Because they are heroes, you....you....Hullovian.

[nb]The only Union Jack in the present day that was used at Trafalgar. Auctioned for 380,000 quid in 2009[/nb]

[The Plunger]

That 'sad military wives' shit that everyone seems to be creaming themselves over is pish as well.

[Danger Man]

No chocolates for you, The Plunger



(If that's your real name)

[George Oscar Bluth II]

Soldiers: devaluing the word 'hero' since 2001.

[Danger Man]

Soldiers: devaluing the word 'hero' since 2001.

Steady on....the UK has a war criminal. Just the one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Payne_(British_Army_soldier)

Our only war criminal was given the standard sentence for war crimes: 12 months in prison. If all the other soldiers weren't so busy being heroes they might have noticed the one bad apple doing war crimes all on his own.

That's enough irony.

[biggytitbo]

Soldiers: devaluing the word 'hero' since 2001.

Absolutely. Confusing bravery with heroism since the same date.

[The Plunger]

No chocolates for you, The Plunger
(If that's your real name)

It is. Pleased to meet you Danger Man.

[Barberism]

Forget all of that.

What is it with that bloody song? Why do people like it? Least of all people who are supposed to be trained killers? It doesn't make me feel Christmasy. It makes me want to stab things. It's just so schmaltzy and glitzy and cloying and fake and absolutely fucking shit.

I hope they all suffer the death of a thousand bumpoos.

[jutl]

All I said was it'd better if there were some dead foreigners hanging in the background and I've had nothing but abuse on YouTube since. Bloody fascists.

All I can find is someone called 'soilysound' making something like that comment and getting a couple of responses. That's not you is it? If it is, that's not really a lot of abuse, is it?

It's almost as if criticism of the armed forces were some kind of taboo in this country...I can't think why.

I don't really understand the converse view: that military personnel should be detested for serving at the behest of the government. Unless we say that we do not need a military at all, under any conceivable circumstances, then we have to accept that some people will choose to work for it. What happens to them after they make that choice isn't their responsibility, except inasfar as it's all our responsibility as voters. You can criticise them for taking the job, but that seems fairly churlish if we are accepting that in some circumstances we need people to do that job. Of course if you're saying we never need a military then that's at least consistent if (to me at least) incomprehensible.

[Buelligan]

I don't really understand the converse view: that military personnel should be detested for serving at the behest of the government.

I don't really see that as the only converse view available, jutl.  In my opinion, the sanctification of the military is a cynical manoeuvre by those who start the fucking wars to make it impossible for anyone to criticise 'War'.  If criticising 'War' is re-interpreted as criticising our brave boys and girls, all criticism can be quickly silenced (no matter how valid it may be). 

[Zetetic]

I'd like to see some evidence that this is a widespread problem in the UK (or wherever the fuck you're burrowed in, if you want, Buelligan). United States, perhaps, but I despite 'Help for Heroes', I haven't seen any sort of chilling effect on criticism of the war.

[jutl]

I don't really see that as the only converse view available.  In my opinion, the sanctification of the military is a cynical manoeuvre by those who start the fucking wars to make it impossible for anyone to criticise 'War'.  If criticising 'War' is interpreted as criticising our brave boys and girls, all criticism can be quickly silenced (no matter how valid it may be).

I'm not sure about that. For a start, criticism is voluble and constant, as it should be. As Biggytitbo has demonstrated with his brave Youtube activism, if it's an official government strategy it's another fairly ineffective one. Also, I wouldn't underestimate the network effect of those who are related to and/or friends of someone serving. That would add up to a lot of bumper stickers even without positing an astroturfed official campaign. Finally I wouldn't assume that those who 'support our troops' also support the policies that they are enforcing. In a way military personnel are more victims of those policies than our own Youtube warriors. 

edit to add: You are right though that detesting the military is not the only opposing option. It's just one I see a lot.

[Buelligan]

I'd like to see some evidence that this is a widespread problem in the UK (or wherever the fuck you're burrowed in, if you want, Buelligan). United States, perhaps, but I despite 'Help for Heroes', I haven't seen any sort of chilling effect on criticism of the war.

I'm sorry, I don't really understand what you are saying here Zetetic.  Are you saying that you have seen no evidence in the UK that criticising the military and/or war is being stamped upon by the popular media there? 

[WesterlyWinds]

Good job we do have military forces, really, otherwise Saddam Hussein would have blown us all up with his weapons of mass destruction.

[Buelligan]

Finally I wouldn't assume that those who 'support our troops' also support the policies that they are enforcing.

I'm sorry, I obviously didn't make myself clear.  I am not saying that our brave boys and girls are actively in league with these bastards - any more than gangs of happy children in a hamburger advert are in league with McDonalds (and possibly, less[nb]Should this read "fewer"?[/nb]). 

I just think that these young and possibly, naive people are being used twice, once to make hellish war somewhere and once to shield the creators of that War with their poor, dead bodies.

[jutl]

Good job we do have military forces, really, otherwise Saddam Hussein would have blown us all up with his weapons of mass destruction.

Yes, and it's a good thing that Hitler gave up when challenged diplomatically.

I just think that these young and possibly, naive people are being used twice, once to make hellish war somewhere and once to shield the creators of that War with their poor, brave, dead bodies.

...but how would we distinguish this latter 'use' from the honest grief of friends and family, and the sympathy of others? I agree that the effect might be to insulate the government - to some degree - from criticism, but I can't see how we can establish that this is engineered.

[WesterlyWinds]

Yes, and it's a good thing that Hitler gave up when challenged diplomatically.

Exactly. Imagine what shitty world we'd all live in if he hadn't left Poland when told to by Chamberlain.

[Buelligan]

...but how would we distinguish this latter 'use' from the honest grief of friends and family, and the sympathy of others? I agree that the effect might be to insulate the government - to some degree - from criticism, but I can't see how we can establish that this is engineered.

We don't need to establish that, we only need to remain calm, think clearly and refuse to become a manipulated mob.

[jutl]

Exactly. Imagine what shitty world we'd all live in if he hadn't left Poland when told to by Chamberlain.

Yup - I'd imagine that a military victory against Hitler might have gone a long way towards demonstrating the necessity of a standing army.

[jutl]

We don't need to establish that, we only need to remain calm, think clearly and refuse to become a manipulated mob.

...but unless we are being manipulated that's a meaningless refusal.

[WesterlyWinds]

Yup - I'd imagine that a military victory against Hitler might have gone a long way towards demonstrating the necessity of a standing army.

Since then have we needed a standing army, though? I suppose the 'military might' of  country's like the USA keep anyone who was considering imperialism/other bad shit (unless sanctioned and quite probably aided by the US government, of course) from actually doing anything. My problem is that I'm an idealist and I would love to live in a world where we don't need a military, which makes me want to argue that we shouldn't have one. I just can't quite justify it. Yet.

Although, I'm sure I read something recently that the big arms manufacturers tend to supply both sides in a conflict (fuzzy details here, I know) so if we remove those bastards (using a crack MI6 like team from CaB, maybe) then surely the whole world can get on with shit that actually matters, rather than killing each other over land, creed and minor annoyance?

[jutl]

Since then have we needed a standing army, though? I suppose the 'military might' of  country's like the USA keep anyone who was considering imperialism/other bad shit (unless sanctioned and quite probably aided by the US government, of course) from actually doing anything. My problem is that I'm an idealist and I would love to live in a world where we don't need a military, which makes me want to argue that we shouldn't have one. I just can't quite justify it. Yet.

Although, I'm sure I read something recently that the big arms manufacturers tend to supply both sides in a conflict (fuzzy details here, I know) so if we remove those bastards (using a crack MI6 like team from CaB, maybe) then surely the whole world can get on with shit that actually matters, rather than killing each other over land, creed and minor annoyance?

Historically that's never been possible, though. Also, armies can and do prevent conflict in some circumstances, so they might need to be a component of the world you're imagining.

[Danger Man]

Costa Rica doesn't have a military.

Are they the only decent-sized country without one?

[Buelligan]

...but unless we are being manipulated that's a meaningless refusal.

Yes, and some might say it's a fatuous waste of breathing to spend one's life arguing about something as nitpicking as that.  Surely, clear thinking and calm reactions are reasonably sane default settings for most human beings (whether or not they are being manipulated at any given moment)? 

[WesterlyWinds]

Sadly I think the world I am imagining is, if even remotely possible, a long way down the line. First we need to get people to actually respect and tolerate each other before we even start on reciprocal altruism. The more time I spend thinking about it, the less likely an end-result it seems.

What job can I get that involves no thinking about how depressing humanity is?

Costa Rica doesn't have a military.

Are they the only decent-sized country without one?

I think so. Most other countries without an army are tiny little islands (e.g. St Lucia). I think a lot of them tend to be protected by the USA, who have more than enough military to go around.

[Zetetic]

I'm sorry, I don't really understand what you are saying here Zetetic.  Are you saying that you have seen no evidence in the UK that criticising the military and/or war is being stamped upon by the popular media there?

I'm saying that I don't see criticism of the war being suppressed over here by conflation with criticism of the troops.