Corbyn to oppose compulsory vaccines/vaccine passports.

[Darles Chickens]

Spain is unusual in how tolerant it is of ID cards. It's interesting to think why that is, and how that relates to the Franco era (or not), or the years since; I don't think I have a simple answer though.

Yeah, it's an interesting question. Regardless of how open and progressive-minded the culture in Spain is these days (remembering that only the over-65s ever even lived their adult lives under Franco), it's unthinkable not to have a way to prove who you are.  My Spanish in-laws couldn't believe that there were no ID requirements at all in the UK.  The notion of being able to drive without carrying a driving licence (and then, that the old licences didn't even have photos) was just alien.  "But how do you prove who you are when you go into the bank?".

This is as much to do with how certain norms are ingrained in a particular culture.

British police are known for building intelligence on who attends protests in general and I believe the new laws can add punishment if you're a 'regular' even if you haven't been found to be breaking laws in the past. Making that intelligence building easy doesn't strike me as wise. Of course ID cards aren't the only way they do this, they use cameras, facial recognition and even fly drones with IMEI/IMSI catchers to collect mobile phone users in the area. Not carrying id is a wise step in the face of that, as is not having your phone powered up or placed in a faraday bag.

And even in peacetime, take stop and search laws, and how they're disproportionately used to prosecute different groups for trivial things like possession of weed with flimsy search pretexts, pick enough people and some are bound to be carrying, even if they weren't really doing anything to alert attention other than being black.

If you perform enough "random" checks on people you're bound to find people who have reasonably lost their id/wallets.

Yep, I understand your concerns.  Obviously ID cards can be a problem when left in the hands of a deeply authoritarian government.  It's honestly depressing to be having to consider this kind of stuff at all.

[FredNurke]

I can't tell whether you find that problematic or not.  In practice, everyone carries their ID cards at all times; it's as essential an item as your house keys, phone, and bank card or cash.

Again, who is 'everyone'? I don't habitually carry two of the three categories you've listed there.

[Darles Chickens]

OK, happy to amend this to "everyone but FredNurke".

(Yes, I get your point, I'm generalising.  Guilty as charged.  But most people own mobile phones, and I maintain that most people wouldn't leave the house without their keys, phone and a bit of cash.  In Spain, you can add your ID card to that.  It probably just lives in the wallet/purse where you normally carry your cash or bank cards, and you don't even think about it.  Probably just a matter of time before there's a mobile app for it.  Of course, now in Spain, your face mask is another essential item...)

[Johnny Foreigner]

I got my Belgian ID card when I was twelve; they are valid for ten years. Under Belgian law, if you are stopped by the police and unable forthwith to prove your identity, you are at fault.
In the UK, I got a proper passport from the Belgian embassy and just let my old ID card lapse; it was such as hassle to travel all the way down to London to renew a card I was never going to use. Under Belgian law, I was committing an offence, but any penalties are, in practice, unenforceable, just like failing to vote is never prosecuted.

My family could not comprehend that I actually walked around without an ID card for three years and that it's basically useless. I get the impression my mother does not even know the difference between passports and ID cards: she calls her ID card her passport and those red booklets (she doesn't have one), for some reason, she refers to as a European passports, even though they've got nought to do with Europe.

[vanilla.coffee]

It's fascinating how your vaccine status has now become an indicator of the kind of person you are.
Turning fellow men against each other.

Remember when neighbours were condemning fellow neighbours in local Facebook groups who didn't appear on their doorsteps at 8:00pm to clap?

Now we are turning against people who make a personal choice.
People who don't have a QR code on their smartphone will shortly no longer be able to access certain areas of society.
My Mum and Dad approaching their 80s don't own smartphones. Would even know how to switch one on let alone fathom how to turn the latest iPhone off.
They don't have computers or printers. They're both three times vaxxed now but can't prove it to get into Sainsburys if asked for a vax pass.

[Crenners]

Now we are turning against people who make a personal choice.

Feel like pure shit just want to make a personal choice with no personal consequences.

[vanilla.coffee]

Feel like pure shit just want to make a personal choice with no personal consequences.

Oh I dunno, people have been giving people the Flu for many years. People then die of it each year without any drama or consequence to the 'giver'

[Buelligan]

Corbyn's entirely correct.  Others will catch up eventually, hopefully, they won't be regretting the consequences.

[Crenners]

we have no choice but to stan

[Buelligan]

I think Corbyn, generally, considers not just himself but others.  He includes consideration of more than just today, tomorrow, himself.

It was why so many were incapable of keeping up with him on the Brexit issue - how easily they were led to vote against their best interest by simplistic, two-dimensional considerations.  Simples, as they say.

[Crenners]

But you have to admit he is a scruffy get

[Buelligan]

Yes, that is surely Corbyn's Achilles' heel.



I'd just add, I don't carry an ID card or even have a phone or phone reception.

[Crenners]

Good luck buying and selling crypto NFTs with that attitude

[Buelligan]

Do you mean JNFs?

[katzenjammer]

I see vaccine passports for entrance to bars, venues etc as being a public health measure akin to the smoking ban. By not being vaccinated you're putting others, especially the staff, at more risk of illness.  It doesn't mean they won't get covid and a smoking ban doesn't mean they won't get lung cancer, but the risk is lower if the exposure is lower.

Incidentally Spain so far has rejected vaccine passports partly because >90% of the eligible population is vaccinated. People that aren't vaccinated are making it more justifiable and valuable to impose the passport system.

[Buelligan]

My feeling about the passport/nightclub entrance thing is - what is more important (as a human right) -

• The right to decide what is injected into your body
• The right to visit nightclubs?

Remember, long after covid is gone, the government will still have the right to force perfectly sane healthy citizens to be injected with whatever they decide. 

I'm not bothered too much about the nightclub issue either way, my own feeling is, if we care about our fellow citizens, injected or not, we don't go into crowded indoor spaces during a pandemic, for shits and gigs. 

What happens when that passport rule isn't just for fun things, what happens when people can't shop for food, for instance?  And there's the rub - is it correct for a government to remove the right of perfectly ordinary citizens to buy food?  Especially when they're being told they should go back to the office or school - either these things are safe or they're not, right?

[Crenners]

Nobody is being asked to produce a vaccine pass to go to Sainsbury's, you daft pair.



BUT THEY MIGHT DO ONE DAY SO

[Darles Chickens]

This all sounds a bit "slippery slope fallacy" to me.

But, just to be clear, are we saying that an anti-vaccination stance is now to be considered a respectable mainstream opinion, and not a fringe ideology touted by the ignorant and deeply conservative?

[Buelligan]

No, we're saying that Jehovah's Loons are (most likely) wrong but they have a right to choose for themselves, like we all want to.

The point is - is compelling people to be injected (against their will) acceptable? 

If we agree that government should have the final say - without even a referendum - if we agree that they know best for us (and will do for the rest of time), then there's no problem at all with handing over complete sovereignty over our own bodies to them. 

I mean, why not?  I'm sure people like Patel, Johnson and Gove care about my welfare as much as their own.

[Malachi Constant]

No, we're saying that Jehovah's Loons are (most likely) wrong but they have a right to choose for themselves, like we all want to.

I know many Jehovah's Witnesses (some members of my family are members) and they are all vaccinated against Covid. They have many faults, but they are not anti-vaccination in general.

[Crenners]

I don't want the government rummaging through my private effluent so I shit in a plastic bag in my OWN GARDEN and every morning I dry it out and burn it so they can't trace what I've been ingesting. The neighbours had the audacity to complain about the sight and stench but they cannot stop me because it's  MY PERSONAL CHOCICE. If you don't want the government to SURVEILLE YOU TO DEATH you will start burning your own shit in a plastic bag now.

[Buelligan]

I know many Jehovah's Witnesses (some members of my family are members) and they are all vaccinated against Covid. They have many faults, but they are not anti-vaccination in general.

Yeah, I wasn't directly referring to their stance on covid vaccination.  More their ideas on other medical intervention - blood transfusions, for instance. 

General opinion is that receiving one, when deemed necessary by a qualified medical practitioner, is a good thing.  However, because we live in a society where we uphold the idea of personal choice over what happens to our own bodies, we accept that adult sane JW's have a perfect right to elect not to receive a transfusion.

[Kankurette]

Nobody is going to ask you to show a vaccine pass if you go into a supermarket, WTF. They only do it for gigs and even then it's only in big venues - I didn't have to get my clinical trial letter out at Piroshka or Space, whereas I did at the Manics.

[jobotic]

but..if I refuse a blood transfusion who does that harm other than myself?

[Buelligan]

Well, it costs people.  If you refuse a blood transfusion there are all kinds of costs, financial, time, emotional, that come into play.  And yet (rightly, IMO,) we uphold the right of each person to decide what's done to their own body.

Nobody is going to ask you to show a vaccine pass if you go into a supermarket, WTF. They only do it for gigs and even then it's only in big venues - I didn't have to get my clinical trial letter out at Piroshka or Space, whereas I did at the Manics.

The point is not whether they'll ask you now for a pass for this or a pass for that.  The point is, who should decide what is done to your body?  Should it be government or you?

[Crenners]

You don't have to have the vaccine. It's as simple as that.

It may well restrict your life opportunities but you do have your perfect right to choose.

Enjoy.

[jobotic]

There's two points here.

I don't think I agree with Corbyn about vaccine "passports".

I think I agree with him about compulsory vaccines for certain people in certain jobs. Although compulsory doesn't mean they will be held down and forcefully given the vaccine, they will lose their jobs.

[Buelligan]

The job thing is laughable.  I work as a cleaner.  All through the pandemic cleaners have been some of the most exposed people.  Now we're being told we could lose our shitty minimum wage jobs (that were deemed safe and necessary throughout) if we don't obey.  Teachers, similarly, told all along schools are safe, no money going in for ventilation or owt, now will they have to pass the injection thing or lose their jobs?  You must get the vaccine but we don't even have to fund the aircon.

You stay home alone at Christmas and we'll have a party because we give a fuck and this is important.

[katzenjammer]

Teachers, similarly, told all along schools are safe, no money going in for ventilation or owt, now will they have to pass the injection thing or lose their jobs?  You must get the vaccine but we don't even have to fund the aircon.

Which teachers are you talking about? My wife is a teacher in Spain, she worked from home over skype during the lockdown then in class with herself and all the kids fully masked and socially distanced, windows open and the schools bought some kind of air purifiers which sound like snake oil to me.  I think the advice was to follow WHO guidelines to minimise risk, not 'you're perfectly safe here'.  My kids are also both in school and are still living with the same thing.

Do you really think retrofitting buildings with expensive and environmentally damaging ventilation systems is the right way to fight covid?

[Buelligan]

I'm talking about teachers in the UK, particularly England, who were told to return to the classroom, that it was safe to do so, only to find them closed again within a day or so in late 2020.  And the fact that, despite promises, the UK government has failed to provide ventilation in schools.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_the_COVID-19_pandemic_on_education_in_the_United_Kingdom#December_to_January_%E2%80%93_resurgence_and_new_mass_closures
https://labour.org.uk/press/open-windows-not-an-answer-in-winter-labour-warns-as-governments-ventilation-failure-creates-further-education-disruption/