Eating animals

[El Unicornio, mang]

How do you know?

(And jinx.)

Edit: For that matter what is it to "fully comprehend" when we're causing suffering?

In other words: "When I chop this animal's tail off, do I understand that it causes pain to the animal?" I would say the vast majority of humans can understand this. Even more so if we are not sociopaths and can empathise.

I don't know for sure if, when a lion kills a zebra, it is able to understand that the zebra has suffered. I'm basing this on my limited knowledge of animal intelligence. I would welcome any information to the contrary though. But there is no doubt that animals feel physical pain.

[Benevolent Despot]

And plants. They just show it in a different way. They're like the daughter who doesn't cry when her daddy hits her, they're the one who emits gases through her pores instead.

[Dead kate moss]

The point surely is that doing anything because it's the opposite of what Robson Jerome (or the other one) would do can never be the wrong decision.

[Replies From View]

I personally see the issue as very comparable to the time PJ was turned blind by a paint gun in Byker Grove.  If animals don't want to be eaten then they shouldn't go taking their safety goggles off.

I was glad that PJ was turned into a blind man, and every time I learn that a cow has been eaten I do a little somersault of joy inside.

[Sony Walkman Prophecies]

I distinctly remember going on a fishing trip with my dad when I was younger and catching a young salmon (were hardly any adults in the stream) through the eye. I didnt know whether it would be kinder to kill it or let it go, but in the end I let it go and feft very bad about it afterwards.

I think if once you start speaking to other fishermen, everyone has a story like that - a moment where you
realised the basic senseless cruelty of your sport and had a brief moral panic. But what makes someone actually go to the extent of selling all their fishing tackle and hanging up the rod, as far as I can tell, really just comes down to how inclined they are to dwell on those sorts of experiences. Ive yet to meet anyone who can kill any animals without feeling bad about it, if only for a moment, but I have met many many people who are seasoned experts at blocking those feelings out.

[Theremin]

I don't have too much of a problem with eating meat in general mainly because I've never thought of animal life as being of a similar worth to human life, though they are obviously living things, capable of suffering.

The only real difficulty I've had involves battery farming, which I find utterly fucking atrocious (SEE: De-beaking. NSFL).

I've just restricted myself to only buying free-range stuff. Which is more expensive, and means I can't have it as much, but I think it's worth it.

[phes]

around the corner you can get 30 eggs for £2.49

those chickens must be fucking praying to go to the battery farm

[Treguard of Dunshelm]

Given that some chickens have lived for years after being beheaded, I don't think they have a very developed nervous system or capacity to feel pain. Think of them less as a bird, and more like a large ambulatory lentil.

[Big Jack McBastard]

Just remember: If a cow ever got the chance, he'd eat you and everyone you care about.

I remember having this debate with a professor in college, me taking the meat eaters side her the veggie side, after going over nutritional and energy points and counters we got on to the ethics of it all and the end of the argument went something like this:

Me: "Carnivorous/omnivorous people don't care if the animals we eat suffer."
Prof: ''That's not true, what about ethical farming methods etc.."
Me: "They still get a bolt in the skull at the end of it! Perhaps if we were being farmed for food we might think differently."

She kind of tailed off and we agreed to disagree (although she was an omnivore so perhaps her heart wasn't really in it).

That's it basically, if we found a human farm set up by animals somewhere we might think twice about our contribution to the daily raising and slaughter of millions of other creatures, until then, fuck it.

The problem/issue/whatever isn't 'Eating meat is baaad maaan' it's that we live in an unnatural, constructed society where the individual for the most part never has to kill anything it eats whereas for the rest of the animal kingdom this is a daily occurrence, I think even if we knew with absolute certainty that a lion knew the zebra they were after felling would suffer, they still wouldn't give a shit.

So perhaps if we had a mixture of the two, we had to kill/collect everything we ate and a human farm turned up that might sway our collective minds a little, obviously neither is happening any time soon.

[Theremin]

Given that some chickens have lived for years after being beheaded, I don't think they have a very developed nervous system or capacity to feel pain. Think of them less as a bird, and more like a large ambulatory lentil.

Actually, most cases like that are due to the beheaded chicken keeping most of it's brain stem, namely, the bits that regulate bodily function, and losing any bits to do with reasoning, memory, etc., rather than it necessarily being more simple.

Kind of like how lobotomy patients can still eat/breathe/shit, but can't do maths problems.

[Hank Venture]

I'm eating animals because they taste nice. I care about giving the animals I eat a nice enough existence before they die but I'm a human being and crave foods including meats.

Other carnivores don't give a shit whose lives they bring to an end so in many ways even the human meat eaters amongst us are nicer than the animals veggies like to think they care more about.

Yes, this. I just don't care about animals being killed. I realize I probably should, but I just block the whole process out of my mind. I can't feel guilty about eating. I will of course pick the product which has been most humanely made in the choice of two, but that's about it. If I went around feeling guilty about eating meat, I'd feel ten times more guilty about the fact that the insides of the computer I write this on is probably fused with the blood of x amounts of children from developing countries. I can't justify it, but I just block it out as it would ruin me if I started taking it all in.

I also believe humans inherently are worth more than animals. I can't justify that either really, but I can trace it back to when I was attacked by a dog as a child. The owner told my mom afterwards that the dog never did stuff like that and that he'd trained it well. I guess it stuck with the me that animals are balls of flesh and fur steered by instincts.

[chocky909]

I believe that all living creatures are as sentient as humans but I still choose to eat meat. I just accept all the death and pain these creatures go through for our pleasure. I suppose that makes me quite a cold person.

Next step, breeding clones for organ replacement a la Never Let Me Go?

[Mr Eggs]

The Rustlers burger I have purchased for my breakfast claims that the 'burger' element is a mere 75% meat. What should I kill to even up the balance? I reckon that missing 25% would be the equivalent of about 30 finely-mashed Bank voles...Or a squirrels leg.

I'm gonna go Ray Mears on some meaty critters ass...GRRRRR...

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

But the difference is that we have the mental capacity to fully comprehend when we're causing suffering, animals can't. If we've reached the point where we can view killing fellow humans as being morally wrong, we need to at least think about how we treat the other creatures we share the Earth with.

If the end situation is 'treat them very well then kill them as painlessly as possible so we can eat them' I really struggle to give further of a shit.

[El Unicornio, mang]

Yes, this. I just don't care about animals being killed. I realize I probably should, but I just block the whole process out of my mind.

I think this is most people and can be applied to many things. I mean, I know that most of the products I buy are manufactured in countries by people (often children) who are being horribly exploited, but it's not enough to stop me getting nice cheap bargains. As a species, I think we still have a looooong way to go before we reach the point where we are sophisticated enough to live off synthetic food and ensure that our actions directly and indirectly benefit the planet as a whole. There may come a point, 10 thousand years from now or something, where meat eating becomes illegal. Perhaps by then they will have created a synthetic meat that tastes just like the real thing? That would be ideal.

[Big Jack McBastard]

Next step, breeding clones for organ replacement a la Never Let Me Go?

Absolutely, I'm behind this all the way, as a matter of fact I think we should go further and use clones in preference to animal testing for medicines and products, if you're looking to cover your arse what better thing to use as a test subject than a human/slab of human meat?

[Dead kate moss]

Cloning  of humans is an ethical minefield, and I feel strongly that the only justifiable attempt to clone another human should be to BRING BACK ELVIS. NOW!! DIG HIM UP AND SCRAPE OFF SOME DNA BEFORE ITS TOO LATE!

(But not to eat him)

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

It would give Burger King a whole new meaning.

[Hank Venture]

Or JFK, so we could find out what really happened.

[Petey Pate]

Or JFK, so we could find out what really happened.

I think him being shot would be the last thing he'd want to discuss in detail.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

I know that most of the products I buy are manufactured in countries by people (often children) who are being horribly exploited, but it's not enough to stop me getting nice cheap bargai

I'd rather they weren't much as I'd rather meat I ate was grown and reared to a good standard and killed as painlessly as possible. I do have a choice in both cases to chose the more ethical choice and I'm pleased to say increasingly doing the more ethical choice doesn't really hit any harder in the wallet.

[Big Jack McBastard]

One of the things that strikes a lot of people when they see a hardcore nature documentary (no not that kind) is when a predator is going after it's dinner, people are all 'Go little furry bugger run!' and 'Boo!' to the lion. They somehow manage to miss that we're the biggest lions in the world.

I believe that all living creatures are as sentient as humans but I still choose to eat meat. I just accept all the death and pain these creatures go through for our pleasure. I suppose that makes me quite a cold person.

I don't think so (to the 'a cold person' bit), I also think that most creatures, certainly the common ones on our menu, have the same base degree of sentience that any human has (bar the ability to communicate in anything but barks, purrs, whistles and piss), anyone who's ever had a pet dog is acutely aware that they're of the same stuff as us just on a 'lower' plane. It's patently obvious their base system is incredibly similar to ours and the wonky old 1700s-esque idea that 'Oh animals don't feel pain like we do' is so clearly bullshit that it's hilarious it was ever even thought up.

They feel pain, guilt[nb](that dog + chocolate wrapper vid I think it's in the Youtubes thread is a great example)[/nb], fear, elation[nb]try going on holiday and seeing how they react when you return[/nb], they get moody and don't want to be fucked with and other times try to cajole you into playing with them. They get attached to their toys and the like, I remember my old mutt pretty much forgetting about one of his stash of squeaky toys that he secreted behind our sofa, never played with it anymore, left it be for many moons until I got hold of it and started squeaking it under a foot-rest.

To say he went bananas is an understatement, it was as if I'd kidnapped his baby and was abusing it just out of his reach, he clawed like fuck at my hands under the thing until he realised it was fruitless and would let out a pained whine if I squeezed the toy (it let out a bit of a sad tone if you did it slowly enough) which then mounted into him getting fucked off and barking at me.

He didn't need speech in that instance, I know those barks translated were "You CUNT that's MY fucking toy you're abusing give me it back you fucker!" Which I did, after driving him up the wall for another 5 minutes with it to sate my insane lust for power.

I wouldn't have eaten him, but until a cow is that adorable/enraged with me but impotent to do anything about it then they're dinner as far as I'm concerned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPSff6V6qjI

[biggytitbo]

One of the things that strikes a lot of people when they see a hardcore nature documentary (no not that kind) is when a predator is going after it's dinner, people are all 'Go little furry bugger run!' and 'Boo!' to the lion. They somehow manage to miss that we're the biggest lions in the world.

[madhair60]

I shoryukened a kitten once.

Yeah I love to eat meat because it's delicious and the alternative dining options bore me to tears.

[The Masked Unit]

In nature there's a food chain. Our ancestors strived for millions of years to reach the top of it and it's an affront to them not to eat the sweet sweet meats they fought so hard for. Being a veggie is like befriending a German after the shit they gave our granddads.

[Neville Chamberlain]

What if you're going to marry a German veggie?! Like me...

I'm a veggie not because I love animals (the only animals I've really got time for are ducks, dogs, baboons and chaffinches), I'm a veggie because the meat industry is just resource-intensive cuntery on a mass scale and I don't want any of my money going to it.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

A German veggie.

That really is the crystallised peak example of a wilful contrarianist at large.

[Neville Chamberlain]

"Marrying a crystallised peak example of a wilful contrarianist at large" is my middle name.

[Sony Walkman Prophecies]

I once ascended a crystallised peak, but once up there found no wilful contrarianists at large, or even in the minority. I descended it in a right huff as you can imagine.

[Hank_Kingsley]

Oh my god, it's a kitten eating cunt!

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jamess10/man-goes-down-on-55-stone-girlfriend-finds-dead-k-17xy