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You know, I like Paul Simon

Started by kalowski, January 24, 2022, 09:55:02 PM

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kalowski

Well, I know his stuff up to Graceland and I like it all. I particularly enjoyed the three Paul Simon - There Goes Rhymin' Simon - Still Crazy After All These Years.
I mean, I'm sure he's overrated, but I like his voice and the fact that he tries to write songs, with form and melody.
I know it's not all your cool Icy Icy T or Snoopy Snoopy Dog Dog but I dig it.
Am I alone here?

SpiderChrist

Nope.

Mother And Child Reunion, Rene And Georgia Magritte, Me And Julio Down By The Schoolyard, Diamonds On The Soles Of Her Shoes, there's so much good stuff in there.

He's a frightful prick, apparently, but who isn't? Not me.

Also big love for his cameo in The Rutles movie.

pigamus

My uncle in Tamworth is the world's biggest Paul Simon fan, been to see him eleventy million times

Hearts and Bones for me Clive if you're making me choose

The Mollusk

Quote from: pigamus on January 24, 2022, 10:09:41 PMMy uncle in Tamworth

Always nice to see my home town getting a mention here!

pigamus

Quote from: The Mollusk on January 24, 2022, 10:14:04 PMAlways nice to see my home town getting a mention here!

I met my old lover on the 110 last night
She seemed so glad to see me, I just smiled

DrGreggles

I like his stuff more when the other lad is singing.

pigamus

Conversely I think Art Garfunkel's singing is so effete I find it impossible to take seriously

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

Quote from: kalowski on January 24, 2022, 09:55:02 PMI mean, I'm sure he's overrated

Why do you say that? He's generally regarded as a great songwriter with numerous classics to his name. I mean, I'd be annoyed if the world as one proclaimed him to be an unimpeachable genius who's every musical utterance is beyond compare. But that's not the case. He's written some amazing songs, most people agree upon that.

Putting his music aside for a moment, I've always been fascinated by his hair situation. He started going bald in his twenties, but managed to disguise that somewhat with the short monkish fringe he sported throughout the initial Simon & Garfunkel epoch.

Then, in the early '70s, when growing your hair long was de rigueur among the rock cognoscenti, he gamely followed suit but had to resort to an absolutely appalling combover. One of the biggest rock stars in the world, and he looked like a Terry Wogan voodoo doll. Something had to give.


So then came the wig years, and to be fair to the lad his syrup was quite convincing. Naive '80s kids such as myself had no idea that the boyish Graceland hitmaker had been conspicuously bald just a few years previously.

But at some point in the late-'90s he started to experiment with baseball caps. And then he came out as proudly bald, in a move presumably inspired by Paul Daniels. Two diminutive men called Paul with (if you squint at Daniels) Christian names for surnames? Can't be a coincidence.

As a balding Paul myself, I admire Paul Simon's bumpy voyage towards a dignified acceptance of a cruel trick beyond his control. It's inspiring.

Psmith

I used to think Art Garfunkel was very tall but it's Paul,he's very little.
Overrated? I don't think he's rated enough.Just as many good tunes as Macca.

Captain Z

Think he came up in another thread here recently, because a link to the story of The Myth Of Fingerprints told by Los Lobos cemented my belief that he definitely is a prick. Here you go:

Quote from: Vitamin C on December 08, 2021, 06:01:48 PMAsk Los Lobos about Graceland. They have some choice words about Simon, to say the least.

https://www.laweekly.com/los-lobos-on-paul-simon-do-you-mean-zydeco-when-you-say-zy-decko/

Since the recent remaster of Graceland, Los Lobos have now been added to the song credits. Always liked that album since I was young, but heard multiple suggestions that he is a difficult person to be around.

beanheadmcginty

I once had a dream where I was singing "The Only Living Boy In New York" and as the song ended I woke up and immediately burst into tears. Decades later I still have no idea what that was about, but it cemented it in my mind as one of the best songs ever.

kalowski

I stuck the overrated comment in as a little bit of defence as I was convinced I'd get that comeback.
I'm pleased by the Paul Simon appreciation here.

Although I do agree with Captain Z that the Los Lobos story can leave a bitter taste.

phantom_power

I would say if anything he is under-rated. He often isn't included in the top tier of songwriters like McCartney, Dylan etc. when he has every right to be

QDRPHNC

Boy in the Bubble has some of my favourite lyrics ever. Evocative and timeless.

Kankurette

I know I shouldn't like Graceland, I know it's problematic, but it has a lot of sentimental value for me and The Boy in the Bubble is the fucking tits. As is You Can Call Me Al.

Ferris

Quote from: pigamus on January 24, 2022, 11:23:17 PMI met my old lover on the 110 last night
She seemed so glad to see me, I just smiled

We talked about the SnowDome
And drank ourselves some expensive beers

Ferris

Quote from: Psmith on January 25, 2022, 12:41:35 AMI used to think Art Garfunkel was very tall but it's Paul,he's very little.
Overrated? I don't think he's rated enough.Just as many good tunes as Macca.


Art is 5'9"! Also assumed he was very tall.

dr beat

I was brought up practically a stones throw or a touch kick from where PS wrote a song on a station about wanting to get the f**k out of Widnes.

I'm also a bald shortarse.

dr beat

I reckon Simon Farnaby could do a great Art in a Toast of London/Tinseltown.

Rizla

It's a weird one cos he's definitely a stupendously good writer and Graceland is magnificent work (as Charles Shaar Murray said in his review - "'The Mississipi delta was shining like a National guitar' - that, friends, is just lovely", cos it bloody is.)  But he's also a shortarse twat with no sense of humour and a freewheelin' approach to intellectual property (the Los Lobos story, Martin Carthy's arrangement of Scarborough Fair).

I want to know what he was thinking with Randy Newman's "The Blues", cos it really sounds to me like he was helping the pish get ripped out of himself there. This was right after the critically mauled "One Trick Pony" film too, he was kind of hitting the skids at the time.


The Culture Bunker

Quote from: dr beat on January 25, 2022, 06:58:12 PMI was brought up practically a stones throw or a touch kick from where PS wrote a song on a station about wanting to get the f**k out of Widnes.
Apparently an urban myth, that one.

About him writing 'Homeward Bound' at Widnes, I mean, not about you growing up there.

dr beat

Maybe, but then again Marvin Gaye wrote a song about wanting to get *to* Widnes.

IsavedLatin

Quote from: Psmith on January 25, 2022, 12:41:35 AMOverrated? I don't think he's rated enough.Just as many good tunes as Macca.

Quote from: phantom_power on January 25, 2022, 10:04:38 AMI would say if anything he is under-rated. He often isn't included in the top tier of songwriters like McCartney, Dylan etc. when he has every right to be

This has very much been my own take in recent years. This thread is making me think, though, that possibly some of that is attributable to the somewhat unsavoury ick of Graceland (swingeing cultural appropriation at the very least) has rubbed off on his rep. But then it's not like Dylan and Macca don't have their own detractors/bad stories (and I say that as a firm believer in Paul being The Best Beatle).

Simon is definitely one that whenever he shuffles off this mortal coil I think we will, as a culture, be blindsided by the realisation of his importance as an artist.

#23
Absolutely stunning songwriter, one of the greats. He just seems to make it seem easy and unforced.

This thread has gone and fucked my hat regarding Art Garfunkel's height.

kalowski

My Little Town is utterly magnificent.

MrsWarboysLover

Quote from: IsavedLatin on January 25, 2022, 07:31:20 PMBut then it's not like Dylan and Macca don't have their own detractors/bad stories (and I say that as a firm believer in Paul being The Best Beatle).

I'm almost scared to ask, what's Macca done that's bad?
As far as I can tell, everything I learn about him just makes him seem like more of A Thoroughly Good Bloke.

This Graceland stuff has blown my mind, I had no idea he was such a shameless thief. All the more bizarre because he obviously CAN write songs so the fact he decided to just steal and treat those musicians so badly just seems so unnessecary.

Notwithstanding, I think if you take his body of work as a whole he probably is underrated, he seems to get left out of the lists where people talk about the Greats and mention Dylan and Cohen etc. I guess lyrically he's not as much of a poet and maybe that's why.

Also, no one's mentioned Duncan, I think that's a brilliant song, one of his best.

IsavedLatin

#26
Quote from: MrsWarboysLover on January 25, 2022, 08:21:06 PMI'm almost scared to ask, what's Macca done that's bad?
As far as I can tell, everything I learn about him just makes him seem like more of A Thoroughly Good Bloke.

I absolutely bloody love him, so I don't subscribe to this, but lots of people have a problem with his behaviour during the endtimes of the Beatles: overweening, telling the others what to do in deflating, even humiliating detail, acting the boss. Everything that happened with Maxwell's Silver Hammer. Basically the accusation thrown at him is that he has a propensity to be an insufferable twat.

For my money, I have much more of a problem with his habit of explaining stuff that does not need an explanation, things that should actively be left open to interpretation (IIRC he's on record saying categorically that, in Norwegian Wood, the speaker of the song definitely torched the entire place, no questions about it, it's a dead cert -- when the whole point, to me, is that it's left as a fun matter of interpretation and the listener can enjoy the ambiguity if they wish). And I think there's been a touch of over-claiming for himself of songs or lines that're remotely in question from the Lennon-Macca partnership (though as we've seen in Get Back, everyone was chipping in constantly on everyone else's work, so maybe he's been unfairly maligned on that score for years!).

Then, if you want to go muckraking in his personal life, he was really not a good boyfriend, to say the least, to Jane Asher during their relationship. But then if you're going on treatment of women in someone's personal life, Macca's a fucking saint compared to any of the rest of the Beatles and quite possibly any man remotely connected with showbiz in the 60s and 70s.

Quote from: MrsWarboysLover on January 25, 2022, 08:21:06 PMNotwithstanding, I think if you take his body of work as a whole he probably is underrated, he seems to get left out of the lists where people talk about the Greats and mention Dylan and Cohen etc. I guess lyrically he's not as much of a poet and maybe that's why.

I think he's thoroughly great as a lyricist, in his own way: simpler, sparer than the others you mention. To invoke a song already quoted above (because I'm not firing on all cylinders this evening): "The Mississippi Delta was shining like a National guitar." I'd be pleased with that one, I have to say.

Glebe

QuoteYou know, I like Paul Simon

Art Garfunkel opts for diplomacy.

MrsWarboysLover

Quote from: IsavedLatin on January 25, 2022, 08:59:04 PMI absolutely bloody love him, so I don't subscribe to this, but lots of people have a problem with his behaviour during the endtimes of the Beatles: overweening, telling the others what to do in deflating, even humiliating detail, acting the boss. Everything that happened with Maxwell's Silver Hammer. Basically the accusation thrown at him is that he has a propensity to be an insufferable twat.

For my money, I have much more of a problem with his habit of explaining stuff that does not need an explanation, things that should actively be left open to interpretation (IIRC he's on record saying categorically that, in Norwegian Wood, the speaker of the song definitely torched the entire place, no questions about it, it's a dead cert -- when the whole point, to me, is that it's left as a fun matter of interpretation and the listener can enjoy the ambiguity if they wish). And I think there's been a touch of over-claiming for himself of songs or lines that're remotely in question from the Lennon-Macca partnership (though as we've seen in Get Back, everyone was chipping in constantly on everyone else's work, so maybe he's been unfairly maligned on that score for years!).

Then, if you want to go muckraking in his personal life, he was really not a good boyfriend, to say the least, to Jane Asher during their relationship. But then if you're going on treatment of women in someone's personal life, Macca's a fucking saint compared to any of the rest of the Beatles and quite possibly any man remotely connected with showbiz in the 60s and 70s.

I think he's thoroughly great as a lyricist, in his own way: simpler, sparer than the others you mention. To invoke a song already quoted above (because I'm not firing on all cylinders this evening): "The Mississippi Delta was shining like a National guitar." I'd be pleased with that one, I have to say.

The Maxwell's Silver Hammer stuff is pretty funny, it does make him a bit of a twat to force people to work endlessly on polishing that turd. But that's just him being a bit bossy and self absorbed, I can forgive that, I was more worried I'd hear stories like the Paul Simon Los Lobos one.

For my money I've always thought Macca's behaviour during that stint was just him desperately trying to keep the band together and get them to actually make stuff, because no one else was going to. Plus the more I hear of the get back tapes the better he comes across, even the stuff that previously out of context sounded a bit twatty.

I also find myself inwardly sighing at some of his comments about Beatles history, Paul claiming he wrote the music for In My Life is pretty ridiculous, for example. I mean, it sounds like a Lennon song musically, Lennon wrote the words, and when have John and Paul ever taken lead vocals on a song the other one wrote? Maybe it happened in the early days but I can't think of it happening since rubber soul.

Yeah I think once Linda was involved onwards he seems pretty spotless in his personal life as far as I'm aware. I think of any person as famous and successful as he has been, especially considering it happened so young, he's the least arrogant and most down to earth of the lot.

But back to rhymin' simon. I think his lyrics are really good and fit the songs well too, I just think they're not quite as mysterious and profound sounding as, say, your Dylans and Cohens. Then again, maybe his lack of regard in comparison to those guys also comes down to him just being a less charismatic and mysterious figure than them too.

billyandthecloneasaurus

He's brilliant but definitely a dickhead.  The Graceland stuff was really disappointing to learn after I'd gotten massively obsessed with it.  It seems worse when you realise he's got previous - the el condor pasa stuff isn't great, and I'm less inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt precisely cus of the Graceland stuff.

Perhaps the thing that makes me respect his songwriting so much is that Simon and Garfunkels output is, in some senses, incredibly fucking wussy and lame, with art's super effete delivery and the general mushiness of it all which made me almost write it off as dorky music for twats when I was 16, but the undeniable quality of it made me reconsider.

I remember my shit iPod clone on shuffle on what I thought was an appropriate house party playlist throwing out the leaves that are green, and I wasn't even mad.