Dune (2020)

[greenman]

It does feel like some of the issue is simply that the directors style needs more time to work effectively in a film thats much denser than his previous work so I could potentially see a longer cut improving that aspect.

[SweetPomPom]

Loads of featurettes but no additional scenes or commentary on the physical release.

Listened to the Paul M Sammon commentary on the recent Lynch Dune release. Well, a bit of it - now I understand why he got such a thorough slagging in the Dune Lynch Files book.

[Cuellar]

Baron wasn't fat enough

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

This might be old news, but I found this look at the films effects interesting, particularly the stuff about how the lighting was handled. I have been thinking for a while that integrating the actors is the real stumbling block for CGI heavy scenes, rather than the CGI itself. It seems mad that they can pre-visualise these big effects sequences and then completely half-arse lighting the actors.

Warning: contains copious use of That Voice (video essay version).

[Retinend]

Warning: contains copious use of That Voice (video essay version).

It's the same breathless -almost orgasmic- tone of voice that I also sometimes hear on videogaming YouTube, when they are at pains to impart how seriously we should take the game - for a random example, this one:

edit: the script in this Dune video is A-level at best. "The lighting is more expressive and contrasty than we're used to from these types of films". "in Dune, sand and wind blowing everywhere is another one that's frequently used" "Villeneuve is very careful with his cinematography to pay close attention to the relationship between characters" (Villeneuve did so, rather than the cinematographer?). It's an odd effect when someone is so adept at making a flashy, professional looking video package, but has so little language at their disposal. That's why in the past a video guy like this would be paired with someone who can actually write.

[Theremin]

Baron wasn't fat enough

Seconded

[Theremin]

I enjoyed this a lot in the cinema, but did find the structuring quite distracting.

I had no idea the story of the novel had been chopped and screwed until (PART ONE) appeared in the titles.

It was an interesting example of the melding between streaming and film formats that happens in a lot of blockbusters. Coming out of the theatre, I felt as though I'd just caned 3 episodes of a particularly lavish Netflix series back-to-back.

Entertained, but with the unstatisfying feeling of not seeing a full plot.

[Mister Six]

Sadly, I got much the same feeling from the books themselves. Each one seems to be a prelude to the next, which is a prelude to the next, which is...

"in Dune, sand and wind blowing everywhere is another one that's frequently used"

This reminds me of something I greatly appreciated in Dune - the crispness and clarity of the images. So often, FX houses use fog/rain/snow/smoke effects to hide poor quality CGI or compositing. Sandstorms would have been an easy way to do the same here, but clearly enough love and effort (and money) went in that it was unnecessary.

[Cuellar]

The Fremen are supposed to be even better than the Sardukar, but not interested in intergalactic politics, but the only Fremen/Sardukar dust-up you see (the one where they jump out of the sand in the abandoned water well) ends with the Fremen dead even though they got the drop on the Sards.

Yeah this annoyed me, especially as it was in a confected scene for the film. In (I think) every reported encounter between Fremen and Sardaukar in the book loads of Sardaukar get absolutely minced by not very many Fremen.

Which is, to be honest, a bit of a problem I had with the book. You're telling me the Harkonnens have ruled Arrakis for AGES and never once became aware of how dangerous the Fremen are? I know Baron doesn't even regard them as human, but they must have taken some Harkonnen soldiers apart at some point if they were being routinely hunted.

[Mister Six]

I assume the Fremen spirited the bodies away for their water and so any soldiers were assumed to be worm food. Are the Fremen really hunted, too? I get the impression you'll only encounter them if they want you to find them. Keeping out of the way of the Harkonnen troops to protect the secrets of their sietches would be perfectly in character (and there's definitely some of that going on, what with the Baron and the rest of the Empire underestimating dramatically the numbers of Fremen). As would allowing a few of them to die to keep the secret, come to that...

[Cuellar]

I think Leto says quite early on to Paul that the Harkonnens hunted the Fremen for sport.

[MojoJojo]

Yeah this annoyed me, especially as it was in a confected scene for the film. In (I think) every reported encounter between Fremen and Sardaukar in the book loads of Sardaukar get absolutely minced by not very many Fremen.

I think the books are a bit vague about the early Fremen/Sardaukar encounters - one of the Fremen comments that the Sadaukar are good fighters I think. Some of them have been trained, but most aren't. They're tough but not an army - it's the combination of the tough environment and Atredies training (+ weirding way) that makes them an unstoppable force.

[evilcommiedictator]

The Emperor doesn't care about what happens on Dune as long as the Spice flows - the point is made later on that the Emperor has Salusa Secundus, that hell planet with the blood draining dudes, to weed out the weak and make a elite fighting force, Arrakis is also a hell planet and generates the same fighting people.

The Harkonnen will raid outlying villages and make sure the enslaved Fremen are generating enough spice, but since the Fremen are bribing people to not have satellites, no-one can do an accurate survey of the planet

[greenman]

Even by the end its...

Spoiler alert

Not that Paul has total military dominance but rather he has the ability to destory Spice production which gives him control of the Guild

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[SweetPomPom]

Can't remember where it appears in the books but the Harkonnen's suffered massive losses to the Fremen during their reign of Arrakis but just covered it up so they didn't look bad.
The spice profits made it all worthwhile but they still underestimated the Fremen - the film starts with the Harkonnens losing a harvester in a skirmish.

[MojoJojo]

Yeah this annoyed me, especially as it was in a confected scene for the film. In (I think) every reported encounter between Fremen and Sardaukar in the book loads of Sardaukar get absolutely minced by not very many Fremen.

Right, so I'm rereading it. The fremem definitely lose fights but the book skips over it and focuses on when they are winning. Spoiler for a bit that will probably be in the next film

Spoiler alert

Thufir meets up with Fremen who are kicking ass, including one sacrifing himself to take out a transport carrying 300 sardaukar. But the chapter ends with them getting slaughtered/captured by sardaukar sneaking up on them, but it's written in two lines.

[close]

Similarly, Idaho's death is just a line before they are running off. Interestingly, in the book they specifically don't use a laser to cut through the doors because Idaho's been leaving shields as traps, unlike the film.

The sardaukar in the book are a bit like Worf in S1 TNG - supposed to big and tough, but we only ever see them get beaten up to show how strong someone else is.

[Mr Trumpet]

Finally caught up with this. Very enjoyable. Some genuinely breathtaking moments with the massive ungainly spaceships hovering in the air, and with the eerie Sardaukar. I felt the length a bit (hur hur) and no particular part of it left a very strong lasting impression. I liked the mentat guy doing his calculations. Dave Bautista as Uncle Fester was an interesting choice.

[MojoJojo]

Up to the end of the film in the book now. Some thoughts.

-the books pretty sexiest, in a Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. The film does a pretty good job of working round this. Making Kynes a woman is a big part of this, as a female leader is treated as normal. Greatly softens the way everyone else in authority is male.
-related, the film downplays that the kwisartz is specifically male
-mentants show signs that they played a far larger part in earlier drafts. Paul's mentant training is mentioned once then never again. It would make sense if the kwisartz was the combining of Bene Gesserit and mentant training. As it is, you could remove all mentions of mentant abilities and it really wouldn't change anything.

 - There's an odd line about human training reaching it's peak with Bene Gesserit and the Space guild - it feels like this would make more sense as the Bene Gesserit and Mentants, with the space guild off to the side as mutated by spice.

-Herbert's really not good at giving different characters different voices. Even with Gurney Halleck constantly quoting stuff and singing songs, I found it hard to keep track of the different lieutenants. I don't know the point of Duncan Idaho. He has a bit more to do in the book than the film, but he still seems like an obvious character to cut.

[Cuellar]

It certainly is sexist. I found

Spoiler alert

Jessica's final triumphant, line (the line the entire book ends on), that she and Chani will be remembered "as wives!!

[close]

laughable in the extreme and it actually sort of ruined the whole book for me.

[Mr Trumpet]

The gender flipping in the film allowed it to pass the Bechdel test more than once (Jessica & Shadout Mapes, Jessica & Liet Kynes). Definitely a good choice. The Liet Kynes actor made a lot out of limited screentime.

[MojoJojo]

Yeah, the character in the book is a bit nothing - he has a first person chapter, but it's mostly his impressions of the atredies. Then a long bit as he hallucinates a conversation with his father before getting blown up in a spice bloom - which is a weird detail on the ecology of Dune that I think the film will probably skip.

It certainly is sexist. I found

Spoiler alert

Jessica's final triumphant, line (the line the entire book ends on), that she and Chani will be remembered "as wives!!

[close]

laughable in the extreme and it actually sort of ruined the whole book for me.

I do wonder if the significance of Leto not marrying Jessica doesn't really get felt in the 2020s. It's an odd detail.

[greenman]

Kynes really though just ends up as a mystical something doesn't she? expounds a bit of wisdom for the white characters, needs saving by them then dies in self sacrifice for them.

[MojoJojo]

That feels a bit reductive. It's a bit hard having to remember the movie from a few weeks back and not confusing it with the books but:
- she saves the white characters by taking them to the research station - and in fact the fremen only take them in on her word (really not sure how clear this is in the film)
- she doesn't sacrifice herself, she wanted to go somewhere different, and had the means to do so

Spoiler alert

If you haven't read the books this probably isn't clear, as the film hides the riding of sandworms till the end

[close]

but got murdered by sardaukar.

In the book and the film it's not really clear whether she's killed because she helped the atredies or just the harkonnen's being dicks/don't want any witnesses. In the book they're killed in a deniable way implying it's an ordered execution, where in the film it could just be sardaukar killing everyone they come across.

[greenman]

Not sure it is really, it takes a native character who in the books is pretty circumspect about the outsiders and wary of his people falling for a "messiah" to someone who is pretty much asking for exactly that.

Seems a bit strange to change that characters gender but to largely miss the chance to exploit Jessica's character, someone who is arguably the most competent of the Atredes side for most of the first half of the book and here is mostly just reactive.

Really it seemed like it was more interested in turning Duncan into an action hero.

[Mister Six]

The gender flipping in the film allowed it to pass the Bechdel test more than once (Jessica & Shadout Mapes, Jessica & Liet Kynes). Definitely a good choice. The Liet Kynes actor made a lot out of limited screentime.

Mapes was always a woman, wasn't she?

Really it seemed like it was more interested in turning Duncan into an action hero.

Well, he basically is. And it seems like a fair change to give the film a broad enough appeal, given Momoa's many fans.

Spoilers for the book Dune: Messiah, which may become Dune 3 (sandworm film)

Plus, he gets brought back in a prominent role, so it makes sense to build him up, even if it's at the expense of Kynes, who's dead and done before  the end of this film whatever happens.

[close]

[MojoJojo]

Yes - couldn't have a male house keeper. I think trumpet was listing interactions that passed the Bechdel test. I cant remember if Jessica and the reverend mother talk about anything other than men.

[MojoJojo]

Not sure it is really, it takes a native character who in the books is pretty circumspect about the outsiders and wary of his people falling for a "messiah" to someone who is pretty much asking for exactly that.

They're not native though. And he's not particularly worried about falling for a messiah - he's worried because as judge of the change, he knows the atredies are being setup for a fall. And he helps them as much as the film version does.

Seems a bit strange to change that characters gender but to largely miss the chance to exploit Jessica's character, someone who is arguably the most competent of the Atredes side for most of the first half of the book and here is mostly just reactive.

It is a shame Jessica does so little. I can see why though - she has a lot of internal monologue. Changing Kynes gender means you get a character in a position of authority. There aren't any female main characters in the book who aren't defined by who they sleep with.

[Blumf]

There aren't any female main characters in the book who aren't defined by who they sleep with.

Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam.
Princess Irulan.
Alia Atreides.

[MojoJojo]

I wasn't counting them as main characters. Although I suppose Mohiam might get as much time as Kynes in the book. She doesn't get any first person time if I remember correctly.

[Mister Six]

Irulan's basically defined

Spoilers for the first two Dune books

by her relationship with Paul, which is cruel and borderline abusive on his part. She's basically defined by not sleeping with Paul, then helping raise his kids anyway. Her biggest contribution to the story is basically being his biographer.

[close]

The Reverend Mother

Spoiler alert

has devoted her life to creating the (male) Kwisatz Heiderach.

[close]

And Alia

Spoilers for the first three Dune books

goes mad and has her body controlled by the memory of her granddad, who uses it to bang boys and eventually gets offed by Paul's kid.

[close]

So yeah, if you want to apply an overly literal interpretation of "defined by who they sleep with" then you're right, but the meaning of that criticism is more that the story centres men, and that is absolutely true.

Spoilers for book three

Even when Paul's kids are presented as being equally brilliant and capable of seeing the Golden Path, it's the boy who takes the reins, becomes God-Emperor and declares that his sister will be his
(pretend) incestuous wife, while getting pregnant with another bloke on the side.

[close]