Star Trek: The Next Generation Rewatch (oh god no)

[Chollis]

i've watched all of TNG and almost finished DS9 and from how they're portrayed, it still feels like Klingons have no business whatsoever being a space-faring civilization. did they steal warp technology off someone?

[FredNurke]

Yes, if memory serves.

[Lemming]

Worf learning the reality of Klingon life is excellent. I don't know why people complain about Klingon storylines, they're always so much fun, with all that overblown bullshit they have. Seeing Worf's relation to it all is lovely character work.

I'd forgotten all about the Worf subplot in this one, so it was great to see him get a wake-up call as his genuinely noble impression of Klingon culture came colliding with the brutal reality. Sadly I don't remember his epiphany it carrying over into any future episodes, but hopefully it does.

i've watched all of TNG and almost finished DS9 and from how they're portrayed, it still feels like Klingons have no business whatsoever being a space-faring civilization. did they steal warp technology off someone?

I think the explanation varies depending on source - in some versions they were invaded by a race who then became somehow extinct, and managed to reverse engineer their technology. I'm pretty sure there's even a version, maybe in a novel or something, where the Romulans give them warp.

Personally I always assumed that there must be a ton of scientists, engineers and relatively normal people in the Klingon Empire, but since it's an insane oligarchic patriarchy where only the worst dickheads get to be in charge of anything, those are the only people Picard et al ever deal with and therefore the only ones we ever see. Even if they stole the original tech, there must be people who have the knowledge to build, maintain and upgrade it. So it's not inconceivable that they actually managed to get it themselves based on the hard work of the people we never see, and then a bunch of awful men who think they're vikings showed up and took all the credit. Or maybe Klingon culture used to be a lot more calm and only became completely horrifying in relatively recent times - they act a little more like Romulans in the TOS era.

It's easier to believe this idea in Voyager and Enterprise, which show the existence of non-psycho Klingons, as opposed to TNG with its weird insistence that being a lunatic is a trait inherent to all Klingons.

[Bad Ambassador]

a race who then became somehow extinct

It turned out they were allergic to getting bat'leths up the jacksie.

[petril]

oh, I'm reminded of what I thought when I last watched the episode:

Data seems really off in this one. There was talk earlier in the thread about Data, emotional display and consistency and he's really weird when he gets his command. seems really just irritable at the First Officer the whole way. It feels like Data's reacting to his first command performatively and just either mirroring the First Officer guy's energy, or copying what he's read about other Captains dealing with day one problems.

I don't think anything about Data's personality being affected by being a Captain came up either. It's really odd

[Camp Tramp]

Commander Hobson is unsympathetic, but with a little tweaking and toning down the anti-android racism, he could have been a lot easier to empathise with.

Picard putting Data in charge is an example of pure cronyism. Data is on the Operations track and is the Second Officer.
Hobson is the same rank as Data, on the Command Track and is already First Officer. Data describes his record as adequate, so it is not like he couldn't do the job?

Hobson should feel aggrieved that another officer unfamiliar with the ship was put in charge.

[Wonderful Butternut]

Making a big assumption about Hobson there, Tramp. He might not be the Sutherland's permanent First Officer. They explicitly mention that most of the ships Starfleet have available in the sector don't have full crews because they're being refitted or aren't completely finished yet. That's why Picard puts Riker & Data in command of starships, not just to give his buddies jobs. And considering Hobson immediately looks for a transfer when Data shows up because he doesn't like androids, I suspect the Sutherland was not ever intended as a long-term assignment for him.

Best promotion in the episode is O'Brien to Tactical Officer though.


Also Sela's only about 23 years old in this episode. She'd only be 2 years out of the Academy and probably still scrubbing the toilets if she was in Starfleet. I know her father was a high ranking General and some nepotism could've come into play, but it still seems improbable that Sela would be in charge of such an important operation at such a young age, especially among a species as long lived as Romulans.

[Camp Tramp]

Making a big assumption about Hobson there, Tramp. He might not be the Sutherland's permanent First Officer. They explicitly mention that most of the ships Starfleet have available in the sector don't have full crews because they're being refitted or aren't completely finished yet. That's why Picard puts Riker & Data in command of starships, not just to give his buddies jobs. And considering Hobson immediately looks for a transfer when Data shows up because he doesn't like androids, I suspect the Sutherland was not ever intended as a long-term assignment for him.

I suggested it as a route they could have taken. If Hobson had been the assigned First Officer and Data had been installed above his head, and if Data had done a bad job, then that could have been character growth for both Data, and Picard, who made the mistake in the first place.

I forgot about Hobson requesting a transfer, that alone makes him either a terrible XO or someone who isn't a part of the ship's normal complement, Any good XO would want to stay close to someone like Data, in the interests of his crew.

[MojoJojo]

I think a lot of the problems with Hobson could have been solved if they were willing to pay for a few more speaking actors. They have Hobson walk over and stand with the rest of the crew who all glower at Data, but no one else speaks. If you spread out all the anti-Data prejudice out amongst all the bridge crew it would seem a lot less silly.

I don't think it was the intention, but it does show that Data is a terrible captain. He saved the day, but by doing his normal science officer stuff, the actual captaining bit - leading the crew, coordinating with the fleet - he completely fucked up.

[The Culture Bunker]

They could maybe have got around explaining Data not cluing in the fleet to his plan by throwing in a reference to communications potentially being monitored by the bad guys.

Perhaps he created some kind of 'Captain Personality Routine' by studying the records of Kirk, and surmising "do what the fuck you like" was the best way to go about it, especially in a tense situation.

[Lemming]

S05E02 - Darmok

Picard is whisked away to another planet by an alien captain, with no clue as to why, and a language barrier prevents any attempts at communication.

- There's a weird signal coming from the Tamarians, a reclusive race. Starfleet believes this is an attempt at communication, so the Enterprise goes to check it out.

- As expected, they're indecipherable. UBAYA AT CROSSED ROADS. LUNGHA, HER SKY GRAY. Picard sits there putting on his best diplomatic face as the aliens talk an absolute load of bollocks. Troi says the aliens are well-meaning, but she doesn't know what it is they're saying. Picard decides to go balls-to-the-wall and ask them for a non-aggression pact, even though neither party has any idea what the other's saying.

- The Tamarian captain suggests "Darmok", getting a strongly opposed reaction from his first officer. Nevertheless, the captain's pretty set on "Darmok", so Picard is suddenly transported from the bridge to the surface of the planet El-Adrel, along with the Tamarian captain. Gorn Round Two?!??!?!!?!?!

- Picard, in his cool new jacket, walks aimlessly around a bit of California. The Tamarian captain arrives and presents him with two daggers. "Darmok and Jalad", he says. Picard has no idea what's going on, but reckons he's probably being asked for a knife fight, so refuses.

- Riker's in command, brace for hell. "What the hell is going on?" he asks Worf. Worf replies that it may be a battle to the death between the captains. Yelling at the Tamarians results in no progress being made, so Riker orders that a shuttle be sent down to the surface while Data and Troi try to figure out Tamarian language.

- Picard tries to emulate the Tamarian language by referring to people and places, but gets nowhere. It's a ball-ache, so the Tamarian goes to sleep. Picard is freezing to death due to his shocking lack of bushcraft know-how. The Tamarian offers him some fire with the word "Temba," which Picard deduces to mean taking/giving.

- Worf's shuttle gets shot to shit by the Tamarians, knocking out its engines. The Tamarian ship leaves it there, and the crew conclude that the Tamarians have intentionally repelled the shuttle without causing any harm to the pilots.

- Troi, at last, points out that they're assuming that Picard has been pulled into a combat scenario based on virtually nothing, and that they really have no idea what the Tamarian's intent is. Riker hopes that Data and Troi can master the totally unknown Tamarian language by 0900 hours.

- Data and Troi decide to focus on the word Darmok. Troi assumes it was a proposal by the captain which the first officer rejected. The captain also used the phrase "Darmok at Tanagra". Troi checks out the computer logs and realises that the Tamarian language refers to a mythology - Darmok was a hunter who travelled to an island called Tenagra. So if you can learn the mythology, you'll be able to speak the language.

- The next morning, Picard wakes up and checks out the Tamarian captain's journal, only to get interrupted by DARMOK AND JALAD AT TANAGRA. The Tamarian captain makes Picard take one of the daggers as a BASTARD-CREATURE approaches, some kind of aggressive electricity lifeform. The Tamarian captain gets eviscerated by it, and Picard can't help because Riker and the gang have managed to get the transporters working at this exact moment, hilariously trapping Picard in a transporter loop thing where he has to watch his new pal get ripped apart but can't move to help.

- The transporter thing flops anyway and Picard remains on the planet. The Tamarian captain is mortally wounded. SHAKA, WHEN THE WALLS FELL

- Riker checks in with Troi and Data to see what they've learned. They found that Tamarians don't have the same concept of self-identity as most other people, and communicate through "mythohistorical accounts". Troi gives an Earth-based example of "Juliet on her balcony", which would signify romance. This is all a waste of time though because we don't know what the story of Darmok is meant to signify, since Tamarian mythology is unknown.

- Picard takes the Tamarian captain back to the campfire and tries to learn more of the language. He learns the story of Darmok, which is essentially:
Darmok was a hunter who travelled at sea. ("Darmok on the ocean", meaning isolation)
There was an island called Tanagra. ("Tanagra on the ocean")
There was another hunter, Jalad, who also travelled at sea. ("Jalad on the ocean")
They arrived at Tenagra at the same time, and together, battled against the "beast of Tanagra". ("Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra", signifying cooperation)
They left together as friends. (the final phrase in the story, "Darmok and Jalad on the ocean", signifying friendship)

- The Tamarian captain hoped to recreate the story of Darmok with himself and Picard. I have absolutely no idea why he thought THIS would be the easiest way to establish a successful first contact. Fucking insanity. But then again, Data does say they think in very non-human ways. Picard gives him the story of Gilgamesh in return, after which he dies of his wounds.

- Riker decides it's time to just shoot at the Tamarian ship to knock out its anti-transporter field. Picard's about to get his shit wrecked by the electricity creature, but is transported back to the Enterprise. Unfortunately, the Tamarians are pissed at being shot at and return fire. There's a great reaction shot of Ensign Gates having no strong opinions either way on this.

- Picard rushes to the bridge and orders Worf to hail the Tamarians. He manages to communicate with the phrases he's learned enough to explain to the Tamarian first officer what's happened, and that their intentions are peaceful. The first officer allows Picard to keep the Tamarian captain's (who's name was Dathon) dagger, and adds a new phrase to the language - "Picard and Dathon at El-Adrel", presumably meaning successful first contact.

This might be my favourite episode of TNG because, despite being a monolingual idiot who can only speak English (and barely speak that), I love learning about linguistics. What seems to be happening here is that the universal translator is working, but it's doing a nonsensical literal translation. I've seen people online - namely SFDebris - suggest that this could happen with real languages too - the two characters that mean "China" in Chinese language apparently translate to "Jade" and "Walls surrounding", so "China" literally translates to "Walls surrounding Jade", which is indecipherable. That might be total bollocks, but people are saying it online, so it must be true.

I also love the idea - even if it's horseshit - of linguistic relativity, which the episode touches on when Data explains how the Tamarian's style of thought reflects their language.

Otherwise, it's a story about communication and trying to understand each other, and Joe Menosky does a perfect job of developing a language that the audience can learn over 45 minutes. This is the best type of Star Trek story, in the end - meeting another genuinely different and alien group of people and having to figure out how to become friends with them before the end credits roll, and without killing each other. 10/10

[mothman]

Worf, his countenance revealed!

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

I love this episode. 10 out of 10 is exactly the number of Worfs it should have. Star Trek predicted Internet meme culture.

[daf]

Wahey! A Lemming Tenner at last!

[Chairman Yang]

Well-deserved too. I know some people who think it's bollocks but this is the episode that springs to mind whenever I imagine TNG.

[kalowski]

Love this, and when we watched it recently my son just blurted out, "That was brilliant" as the credits rolled. It just a captivating story.

[MojoJojo]

Yeah, it is good. It brings up the question of how the universal translator is supposed to work if it can't cope with metaphor. Picard becomes literate conveniently quickly at the end - it's a bit like that s1 episode of the Simpsons when Bart goes to France.

Oh and the monster is a bit crap and unnecessary. Feel like some sort of different threat would have been better. But I'm just niggling here.

[MojoJojo]

Favourite memory alpha nugget - an early concept had an alien child say Darmork before booting whoever into the sky, until Picard works out Darmork means play and kid just wants to play. This was rejected on the basis that it was too similar to the bridge of death in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

[daf]

101 | "Darmok"



Communication Breakdown

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Highlights :
• Dazed and Confused
• Ramble On
• How Many More Times?
• Metaphor Sticks
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Other Bits :
• Picard With His Boy Scout Badge Denied
• Riker At The Captain's Chair With His Legs Spread Wide
• Worf In The Shuttle-pod When The Engine Fried
• O'Brien When The Beam-Up Died
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Score :

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I Wonder if RTD has got round to watching this yet! :

"I've seen lots of Star Trek: The Next Generation, I think it's a lovely show – but there's one episode, the billing for which is so fascinating I've actively avoided ever seeing it. I love the idea so much, I'd rather think about it. Forever. The episode is called 'Darmok,' and the synopsis simply says that Captain Picard is trapped on a planet with an alien who can only talk in metaphors. Wow. That sounds brilliant. How does that work? What happens? How does it end? I've got no idea – not seen it! But it keeps resonating with me. In 2008, I wrote a Doctor Who episode called 'Midnight.' Is it like 'Darmok'? I don't know. But stripped down to its essentials, it's a story about a hero, an alien, and words. That's practically the same billing. Maybe the two shows are profoundly different, but I know for a fact that all those years of wondering about 'Darmok' led me to that script."

[Bad Ambassador]

For those who haven't seen it, Midnight couldn't be less like Darmok. It's about an entity that possesses someone and then repeats everything everyone in the surrounding environment says, then forces one person to repeat everything it says. It's a very creepy and disturbing idea, and the nature of the entity is never explained.

[daf]

Ironically, 'Midnight's one of three* RTD Doctor Who's that I haven't watched yet. Not deliberately - I ducked out half way through the first series, and then kept missing it when they were repeated a few years later on BBC 3.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
* (Other two - The Waters of Mars & The Planet of The Dead)

[All Surrogate]

Love this, and when we watched it recently my son just blurted out, "That was brilliant" as the credits rolled. It just a captivating story.

Aw, that's really cheered me up.

[Johnny Foreigner]

Patiently watched all of Star Trek in the course of the last two years. I remembered this specific episode; even more so as I had only ever seen it dubbed in German.

[Blumf]

Dubbing comparisons:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tODimH28R_I

Not the most interesting scene for it, would have been nice o have more characters speaking.

[Mobbd]

Patiently watched all of Star Trek in the course of the last two years. I remembered this specific episode; even more so as I had only ever seen it dubbed in German.

My partner and I are on a full-Trek re-watch right now. Even though I've been a pointy-ear-wearing geek for about 20 years, I'd never done this before.

Darmok was the one that started it off. We watched it at random on hankering for a bit of TNG, enjoyed it so much that as the credits rolled our conversation went something like: "The Cage to Endgame?" / "Yeah, okay," which sounds pretty Darmok too.

Darmok is surely one of the best episodes of Star Trek ever made. If Lemming hadn't given it a ten, I'd have been curious to know what a ten could possibly be reserved for. Yesterday's Enterprise perhaps? Anyway, it's a beaut of an ep, and your review was great too, Lemming.

[daf]

My partner and I are on a full-Trek re-watch right now. Even though I've been a pointy-ear-wearing geek for about 20 years, I'd never done this before.

Mobbd at Tellybox. Partner, Eyes Wide

[Mobbd]

Tee-hee! A epic we can all relate to.

[bgmnts]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6oUz1v17Uo&ab_channel=CoJux

Just putting this here because it's ace.

[MojoJojo]

The consensus seems to be that tng gets good when Riker grows the beard, or the best of both worlds. But looking at season 5 - those are just when it stopped being disappointing. Darmork is just one of the most memorable episodes of TNG, along with Ensign Ro, Power play and Inner Light. All in season 5.

Just watched "Silicon Avatar" - it's not amazing, but it still works a lot better than many earlier episodes.

[Mobbd]

The consensus seems to be that tng gets good when Riker grows the beard, or the best of both worlds. But looking at season 5 - those are just when it stopped being disappointing. Darmork is just one of the most memorable episodes of TNG, along with Ensign Ro, Power play and Inner Light. All in season 5.

Just watched "Silicon Avatar" - it's not amazing, but it still works a lot better than many earlier episodes.

People are sometimes a bit down on Season 6, which we'll soon be approaching, but I love it. There are some cracking episodes (Chain of Command, Ship in A bottle, Starship Mine!, Tapestry, Schisms) and they seem to find a cure by that point for Star Trek Amnesia by then with several good-quality references to previous episodes. Picard getting his flute out in the Jeffries Tube springs to mind.