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Starmer's Labour: Ghouls and Tools on the Ship of Fools

Started by pancreas, September 30, 2021, 08:08:11 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

pigamus

Personally I'm not sure it's fair to keep going on at Crobbins to set up a new party when he clearly doesn't want to. He's seventy-odd and he's done his bit. But he's the most high-profile socialist there is, so it's inevitable I suppose. It's a shame Zarah and Laura Pidcock don't have higher profiles.

Buelligan

FWIW I think he's a man of sense, experience and principle.  He's knows full well that doing a Tinge is not the way to run a fucking ballroom, not at all. 

IMO, he's letting the people who back Starmer and the more innocent people who imagine themselves grown up and have followed him, learn how much support there is, out there, for what they're offering.  How many people really are all fired up by the idea of beige.

He's also letting them kill themselves publicly by taking the whip from him and standing against him in the next GE whilst also giving Party money and support to candidates like Wakeford. 

If they do this, no sane socialist can continue to support them as a pragmatic or principled choice.  Then we'll see about a new party.  In the mean time, people like Zarah and Laura can build their experience and standing.  That's what I believe is going on anyway.

Mr_Simnock

Quote from: pigamus on January 27, 2022, 12:16:59 PMPersonally I'm not sure it's fair to keep going on at Crobbins to set up a new party when he clearly doesn't want to. He's seventy-odd and he's done his bit. But he's the most high-profile socialist there is, so it's inevitable I suppose. It's a shame Zarah and Laura Pidcock don't have higher profiles.

It's a waste of time that, almost gives creadence to the 'cult' slur used a lot to keep hoping it will happen, I don't understand why folks cant see we are now 'post Crobbins' in so far as left politics is concerned.

pigamus

I don't see the left being able to move on from Corbyn for a long time. Till he dies, really.

Buelligan

Quote from: Mr_Simnock on January 27, 2022, 01:18:14 PMIt's a waste of time that, almost gives creadence to the 'cult' slur used a lot to keep hoping it will happen, I don't understand why folks cant see we are now 'post Crobbins' in so far as left politics is concerned.

Yeah, they should move on because they look like they're not grown up and people might say they're a cult (which would be shocking).

They should definitely move on because all the people who so wisely say so, without ever giving any rational explanation, say they should.  Or they're not grown up. Or they're cultists.  Yep.

Buelligan

Like, yeah, Marx or whoever, they knew when to gracefully fuck off and disappear.  Embarrassing because you're not grown ups and maybe, even, cultists.


Buelligan

Exactly what I'd expect from a grown up person who isn't in a cult.

PlanktonSideburns

People are always accusing UK Politicians as having cults forming around them. Can't think of a single politician that has the charm to run a cult, - not that it would neccicarily make them a better politician, just saying these sad sacks couldn't cult their way out of a paper bag

EDIT: ok FINE pickles could do it if he could be bothered, but will he?

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: pigamus on January 27, 2022, 12:16:59 PMPersonally I'm not sure it's fair to keep going on at Crobbins to set up a new party when he clearly doesn't want to. He's seventy-odd and he's done his bit.

He hasn't stopped doing his bit. He just doesn't want to give these cunts what they want.

Old Nehamkin

Ideally the U.K. would have a healthy supply of prominent socialist politicians and public figures who could lend their credibility and name recognition to a new left-wing project, but unfortunately people with politics like that have been almost completely frozen out of public life over the last few decades for some mysterious reason.

It's a broadly similar dynamic to the U.S. where the leadership of a swelling popular left movement ended up falling onto an ageing political outsider by virtue of him simply being the most prominent of a tiny handful of socialist elected officials who had somehow managed to slip through the cracks during a long era when it was virtually impossible for anyone of that political stripe to maintain such a position.

The extent of the age gap that exists between Sanders or Corbyn and their younger political allies who have broken through in recent years (Omar, Tlaib / Burgon, Sultana etc.) and the extremely thin spread of notable left-wingers who exist in the age range in-between, illustrates just how ruthless and total the efforts of Blairite Labour and the Clintonite Democratic party were to divest themselves from the left and colonise their respective electoral bodies with corporatist hacks and drones. There is effectively a lost generation (probably two generations, to be honest) as far as any real sort of socialist representation in electoral politics goes.

Anyway, while I don't really know whether the success of a potential left-electoral project is contingent on the involvement of Jeremy Corbyn, I think that the reasons that a lot of people think of him as being a useful or even necessary figurehead have more pragmatic and strategic reasons behind them than the worn-out "cult" smear which was only ever a miserable bit of projection from the blue-tick centrist crowd and doesn't need to be seriously indulged by anybody on the left.

chveik

yeah it's just pragmatic. who else can unify the left other than him?

Buelligan

Quote from: Old Nehamkin on January 27, 2022, 02:21:41 PMIdeally the U.K. would have a healthy supply of prominent socialist politicians and public figures who could lend their credibility and name recognition to a new left-wing project, but unfortunately people with politics like that have been almost completely frozen out of public life over the last few decades for some mysterious reason.

It's a broadly similar dynamic to the U.S. where the leadership of a swelling popular left movement ended up falling onto an ageing political outsider by virtue of him simply being the most prominent of a tiny handful of socialist elected officials who had somehow managed to slip through the cracks during a long era when it was virtually impossible for anyone of that political stripe to maintain such a position.

The extent of the age gap that exists between Sanders or Corbyn and their younger political allies who have broken through in recent years (Omar, Tlaib / Burgon, Sultana etc.) and the extremely thin spread of notable left-wingers who exist in the age range in-between, illustrates just how ruthless and total the efforts of Blairite Labour and the Clintonite Democratic party were to divest themselves from the left and colonise their respective electoral bodies with corporatist hacks and drones. There is effectively a lost generation (probably two generations, to be honest) as far as any real sort of socialist representation in electoral politics goes.

Anyway, while I don't really know whether the success of a potential left-electoral project is contingent on the involvement of Jeremy Corbyn, I think that the reasons that a lot of people think of him as being a useful or even necessary figurehead have more pragmatic and strategic reasons behind them than the worn-out "cult" smear which was only ever a miserable bit of projection from the blue-tick centrist crowd and doesn't need to be seriously indulged by anybody on the left.

Huzzah!

king_tubby

Dave Nellist is going to stand for TUSC in Birmingham Erdington. An actual Trotskyite!

Buelligan

Read it - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Nellist - and weep (for what might have been if only Tony Blair had fallen into a sinkhole as a child).

https://twitter.com/Christian4BuryS/status/1486663336666308613?s=20

I truly can't even comprehend the utterly shameless, naked, cynicism of this.

A fucking tory mp from two weeks ago using Holocaust Memorial Day to shit on the left.

And will be 100% lapped up by the absolute cunts who Labour are now trying to attract.

Old Nehamkin

How long till this fash cunt is in the shadow cabinet?

Video Game Fan 2000


BlodwynPig

Quote from: Bobloblawslawbomb on January 27, 2022, 05:41:23 PMhttps://twitter.com/Christian4BuryS/status/1486663336666308613?s=20

I truly can't even comprehend the utterly shameless, naked, cynicism of this.

A fucking tory mp from two weeks ago using Holocaust Memorial Day to shit on the left.

And will be 100% lapped up by the absolute cunts who Labour are now trying to attract.

The Nobby

Training Day 1 for Labour Party Internment: Mossad zoom call

Fambo Number Mive

Quote@electpoliticsuk
Westminster Voting Intention:

LAB: 40% (-3)
CON: 35% (+2)
LDM: 10% (=)
GRN: 3% (=)

https://twitter.com/electpoliticsuk/status/1486700677086728204

jobotic

Wonder what he'd have said about Jewish refugees in the thirties. Something like this?

QuoteOn 20 July 2021 in the second reading of the Nationality and Borders Bill Wakeford said asylum seekers travelling through several safe countries before reaching the UK "are very often travelling through many safe countries. Essentially they have a shopping trolley as to what they want in this economic migration".

chveik

#2151
edit: oh it was two weeks ago, nvm

Sebastian Cobb

I rather liked this reply
Quoteyou were a representative of the Conservative Party 2013 to 2022. Can you give examples of when you called out Tories illegally arming the antisemitic state of Saudi Arabia, backing the antisemitic regime in Hungary and the Tory leader using antisemitic tropes?

https://twitter.com/greg_herriett/status/1486702668588498944

pigamus

^ "Not like that Stu! Not when you have to know anything about it!"

Mr_Simnock

Quote from: Buelligan on January 27, 2022, 01:29:08 PMYeah, they should move on because they look like they're not grown up and people might say they're a cult (which would be shocking).

They should definitely move on because all the people who so wisely say so, without ever giving any rational explanation, say they should.  Or they're not grown up. Or they're cultists.  Yep.

Corbyn will never be a political force again by any measure, you can either accept that or spend the rest of your time on this planet wishing he would start his own party, up to you.

Kelvin

Quote from: Mr_Simnock on January 28, 2022, 01:20:40 AMCorbyn will never be a political force again by any measure, you can either accept that or spend the rest of your time on this planet wishing he would start his own party, up to you.

Whats the alternative for the left, though? There is none; we're disorganised, at each others throats about what direction to move in next, and lacking in clear leadership. You might not consider Corbyn the ideal figurehead for a new party, but he's one of the few figures that could unite the left around a cause and force the media/public to pay attention to us again. Uniting around something has to be better than uniting around nothing. The reality of the "post-Corbyn left" is political irrelevance without such a cause.

Buelligan

Quote from: Mr_Simnock on January 28, 2022, 01:20:40 AMCorbyn will never be a political force again by any measure, you can either accept that or spend the rest of your time on this planet wishing he would start his own party, up to you.

TBH, so what? As Kelvin says, what's important now is find a powerful avenue through which to make progress. Whatever that may be.

Personally, I like Corbyn, I think he's a genuinely good person (and there aren't many politicians or people, I'd say that about).  I think, if the Labour Party do continue to withold the whip and force him to stand at the next GE as an Independent, they will be creating something, something they can't expect to hide from the majority of voters, as they do with so many of their crooked moves, that over time will tear their crooked house down about their dishonest heads.

But this isn't a cult, it's a necessary and important resistance movement against the terrible cruelty and wickedness of those in power, including the people currently running the Labour Party.  We must win.  And, frankly, your personal opinion about Corbyn is worth about as much as mine in that struggle.

greenman

Really though he is by far the most well known progressive politician in the UK who brought in massive support just a few years ago so I think he's by far the best figurehead for a new party you could have at the moment even if he might not be the long term future in leadership of it.

I do think a new party really is needed as well rather than some other kind of political group which would likely just be ignored by the media and not have much reach as a result. Indeed I think you could actually potentially leverage the dislike of Corbyn from the media to your advantage, I'm guessing if he started  or was strongly involved in a new party a lot of them simply might not be able to help themselves in terms of attacks when the better tactic is the typical one of just starving them of coverage.

Buelligan

Just thought I'd leave this here for those that haven't seen it.


king_tubby