Dave Chappelle - The Closer

[BeardFaceMan]

I loved the first two seasons of Chappelle's Show. Not many sketch shows even in its league. I don't think there's any need to go full-on revisionist about his previous work, and the reason it was so popular on here and elsewhere is that it was really fucking good. 

Does it help that I've always thought he was crap? Before all this furore I genuinely thought his best work was Con Air, no need to revise anything.

[Kermit the Frog]

As awful as Chappelle's recent actions have been, not looking forward to the coming era where people who have never watched a single one of his stand-up specials get to gloat about having never liked him

[tribalfusion]

I loved the first two seasons of Chappelle's Show. Not many sketch shows even in its league. I don't think there's any need to go full-on revisionist about his previous work, and the reason it was so popular on here and elsewhere is that it was really fucking good. 

If you're replying to me the whole point is that I ALWAYS thought he was a celebrity star-fucker hack who thought of himself as the greatest the way some rappers will rap about themselves. 

Chappelle indulged in cheap humour with little propensity for anything resembling deeper thought. The most I can imagine saying is that he had a polished delivery but it was almost always in the service of the usual American identity based 'comedy' with all its limitations.

[Famous Mortimer]

Does it help that I've always thought he was crap? Before all this furore I genuinely thought his best work was Con Air, no need to revise anything.

You are, of course (for fuck's sake) allowed to think and say whatever you like. My comment was not directed at you, or tribalfusion, or anyone in particular, but at threads like this, this and this (which features you going on at some length about his apparently high-pitched voice), threads with lots of fans of his previous work in them. I'm sure there are others, this was just a few minutes of searching.

While I'm unlikely to watch it any time soon, his TV show was incredibly popular and a lot of people really really liked it. They also really liked his previous standup. I feel there's a tendency among people to say "well, I never liked them anyway" when something like this happens, which seems disproportionate compared to the number of fans he had a few years ago. Everyone who always hated him can give themselves a lovely big pat on the back.

[tribalfusion]

Chappelle's Show was well liked at the time, but I thought it was fairly average. Just didn't really do a lot for me.

Tried watching a bunch of episodes a month or two before all this current shit kicked off, and my opinion hadn't changed. Charlie Murphy and Paul Mooney are the best bits, the rest still just seems kind of meh and overrated to me.

Don't really get all the fuss about him or his standup; I guess he's like a sort of Trump-like figure for arrogant cunts who think they're better than everyone else.

I'm with you on all this however I would say that it's only recently that this has become more widely apparent to many.

In the industry, he not only gets a pass routinely for his hacky star-fucking material, but gets props and awards like the Mark Twain award in 2019 the thought of which was much more amusing to me than anything Dave has actually performed.

It's this kind of celebration of the hacky 'truth-telling comedian' in the US context which I find especially repugnant. Still, you have to appreciate the humour of a Mark Twain award with recipients like Dave and Ellen DeGeneres among others.

The JFK Center which awards the prize stated that it chose Twain as the namesake of the award owing to his status as a controversial social commentator and his "uncompromising perspective of social injustice and personal folly."

[BeardFaceMan]

(which features you going on at some length about his apparently high-pitched voice)

So not directed at me, just at the thread I posted in along with a narky summary? Right. Like I said, I've never been a fan, it's not a recent thing. Just as you say there are people who always thought thought was good, there are also people who always thought he was crap and it's got nothing to do with imaginary point-scoring or bandwagon-jumping.

[Barry Admin]

While I'm unlikely to watch it any time soon, his TV show was incredibly popular and a lot of people really really liked it. They also really liked his previous standup. I feel there's a tendency among people to say "well, I never liked them anyway" when something like this happens, which seems disproportionate compared to the number of fans he had a few years ago. Everyone who always hated him can give themselves a lovely big pat on the back.

I think you just need to accept that some of us have always found him over-rated, rather than accusing us of revisionism prompted by his transphobic cuntiness.

[The Culture Bunker]

There was plenty of Chappelle's Show I thought was funny, but after seeing his stand-up over the years and rarely being moved to laughter, I did wonder if all the sketches I liked were mainly the work of Neal Brennan and other contributors like Charlie Murphy.

[Famous Mortimer]

I think you just need to accept that some of us have always found him over-rated, rather than accusing us of revisionism prompted by his transphobic cuntiness.

My comment was not directed at...anyone in particular, but at threads

I feel like the trend of people chiming up with "never really liked X anyway" after X has a public disgrace is pretty common, and has even been mentioned on here a few times about different people. I think the balance of opinion about him in old threads is pretty different, and thought it was worth pointing out. But if you want me to specify that you and everyone else from the last few pages have never liked him, and therefore your opinion on his comedy hasn't changed with the recent transphobic bullshit, then sure.

[BeardFaceMan]

But if you want me to specify that you and everyone else from the last few pages have never liked him, and therefore your opinion on his comedy hasn't changed with the recent transphobic bullshit, then sure.

If you're going to lump people in with this trend you say you're noticing, then yes, that would be helpful. And again, those threads you linked to show people criticising as well as praising him. You're acting like Chappelle is this comedy great that no one has ever had a bad word to say about until this recent business, and that's simply not the case.

[Kermit the Frog]

Thing about the 'never liked him' thing is that there's always an element of 'so what?'. It's not really that interesting a thing to add to conversation, unless it illuminates the matter at hand, the turn he's taken, if it says something about how the ego of the man was always off putting, etc. But if it's just "Never liked him, even before it was cool, watched a clip once, didn't explore further" then that's just very shrugworthy

[Barry Admin]

Thing about the 'never liked him' thing is that there's always an element of 'so what?'. It's not really that interesting a thing to add to conversation, unless it illuminates the matter at hand, the turn he's taken, if it says something about how the ego of the man was always off putting, etc. But if it's just "Never liked him, even before it was cool, watched a clip once, didn't explore further" then that's just very shrugworthy

Is it the same when people say, "I always thought he was brilliant"?

He's parading himself as The GOAT, so people saying they were never that fussed does seem fairly pertinent, on a comedy discussion forum.

I agree generally though.

[Avril Lavigne]

Surely him being a dick is going to prompt people who previously didn't have an opinion on him at all to say they now have the opinion that he's a dick and it's kind of incidental but worth mentioning that they were never into his stuff previously.

[a peepee tipi]

One of my favorite jokes is from Killing Me Softly about not wanting to call police when his house was broken into for fear of the cops being like, "Uh oh, he's still here. Seen this one before, looks like this *boop* broke in here and hung up pictures of his family everywhere."

My favorite sketches from his show were the Player Hater's Ball, Fisticuffs, and Making the Band in all of which Chappelle is the highlight. I'm surprised that apparently, on his prior output alone, he'd have had so many detractors on here.

The mediocrity of his Netflix specials would have been more than enough to drop him down from "all-time great" status though, even without him pulling all this nasty shit

[Kermit the Frog]

Is it the same when people say, "I always thought he was brilliant"?

Well yes, if that's all there is to it. Same thing applies, nothing is illuminated by it

[Avril Lavigne]

Well yes, if that's all there is to it. Same thing applies, nothing is illuminated by it

It does illuminate the amount of people who always liked him vs those who didn't, which is pretty signif considering he was presented in media as an untouchable comedy god for a good few years.

[Kermit the Frog]

It does illuminate the amount of people who always liked him vs those who didn't, which is pretty signif considering he was presented in media as an untouchable comedy god for a good few years.

Going to have to disagree with you there and say that I don't think that's very interesting at all. Personally (in this context) I'm more interested in the work and what it does, what it suggests about the attitudes of the 'artist', how it changed overtime, whether his turn towards transphobia was prefigured by anything in his earlier material, etc. Y'know, comedy nerd shit. Engagement with the thing itself. Not a tally of "always liked him"/"never liked him, didn't explore much". That'll get boring really really quickly.

But that's just a subjective judgement of course, I'm not going to further intervene if the thread goes that way regardless

[Avril Lavigne]

Not a tally of "always liked him"/"never liked him, didn't explore much". That'll get boring really really quickly.

I'm talking about that specifically in the context of him being seen as one of the greatest comedians of all time. Was he really perceived that way outside of the media or was that just marketing? That's why I find the tally interesting.

[Cold Meat Platter]

I think it's disingenuous to suggest that people here are simply voicing  opinions 'for' and 'against' here.

I quite liked Half Baked. But I do remember that I watched it with a mate after a hash deal had fallen through so it was somewhat frustrating.

[Kermit the Frog]

I'm talking about that specifically in the context of him being seen as one of the greatest comedians of all time. Was he really perceived that way outside of the media or was that just marketing? That's why I find the tally interesting.

Engaging with metanarratives around the work seems like a way of avoiding discussing the work itself due to broad unfamiliarity with it or whatever. I'd expect that kind of broad stroke conversation on Reddit, but not in a place like here where people are generally a bit more dialled in

[Avril Lavigne]

Engaging with metanarratives around the work seems like a way of avoiding discussing the work itself due to broad unfamiliarity with it or whatever. I'd expect that kind of broad stroke conversation on Reddit, but not in a place like here where people are generally a bit more dialled in

Not from me, I'm an alcoholic.

[BeardFaceMan]

Engaging with metanarratives around the work seems like a way of avoiding discussing the work itself due to broad unfamiliarity with it or whatever. I'd expect that kind of broad stroke conversation on Reddit, but not in a place like here where people are generally a bit more dialled in

Or due to trying his material and not liking it? Or is that what the 'whatever' covers?

[Avril Lavigne]

I take issue with the term metanarratives anyway, it's context and context is everything.

[Kermit the Frog]

Or due to trying his material and not liking it? Or is that what the 'whatever' covers?

Which material did you try and what specifically didn't you like about it and was it because it suggested in some way that one day he might become transphobic might be a more fruitful avenue

[Kermit the Frog]

I take issue with the term metanarratives anyway, it's context and context is everything.

Again, really going to have to disagree there, talking about the thing itself is kind of a lost art it seems, everybody does context nowadays because context, and by extension trivia, are easier to handle

In fact, it could be said, that the point at which Chappelle started paying attention to the metanarratives around his own work is the point at which his work fell totally off a cliff and just became him whining about how he could be perceived

[Avril Lavigne]

Again, really going to have to disagree there, talking about the thing itself is kind of a lost art it seems, everybody does context nowadays because context, and by extension trivia, are easier to handle

Things exist in a context. I don't know what else to say about that.

[BeardFaceMan]

Which material did you try and what specifically didn't you like about it and was it because it suggested in some way that one day he might become transphobic might be a more fruitful avenue

Again, really going to have to disagree there, talking about the thing itself is kind of a lost art it seems, everybody does context nowadays because context, and by extension trivia, are easier to handle

So you want people to talk about his past material in a way that reflects his current transphobia and not just talk about the his past material, and then you moan about everybody doing context? Well, that's clearer.

[Avril Lavigne]

I'm talking about that specifically in the context of him being seen as one of the greatest comedians of all time. Was he really perceived that way outside of the media or was that just marketing? That's why I find the tally interesting.

In fact, it could be said, that the point at which Chappelle started paying attention to the metanarratives around his own work is the point at which his work fell totally off a cliff and just became him whining about how he could be perceived

[Kermit the Frog]

I'll try to be clearer, discussion of metanarratives without grounding in being able to discuss the work itself leads to shallow analysis, more of a celebrity culture thing than a comedy discussion thing, and Chappelle has possibly made this mistake himself, sacrificing the quality of his work to relitigating his public reputation, leading to shallower and lower quality work. However, if you think his work has always been bad, then the latter is an inaccurate read anyway, so the tally wouldn't have led us to consider the effect of his reputation on his work because his work has always been bad

[Cold Meat Platter]

Yes, we get it. We're not talking about him to a standard that you would be satisfied by. I don't care.