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Wrestling 2021/2022: All Thread Everything

Started by madhair60, November 22, 2021, 08:51:06 AM

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Ja'moke

November 25, 2021, 03:01:47 AM #30 Last Edit: November 25, 2021, 03:37:37 AM by Ja'moke
Great main event. That was actually a really fun show after that QT/Gunn Club lull.

Also that Punk and MJF promo segment was sort of laid out like a match with its back and forth. Really well done.

up_the_hampipe

Great promo last night. Punk is in a different league, isn't he? Great to see he can still bring it, but the strength of his mic ability has always been how natural he comes across. MJF did a decent job given that, as Punk said, he went for the low-hanging fruit. Someone had to say these things eventually, I suppose, so I'm just glad that's out of the way. Still, he managed to pop off some zingers while making sure to play the heel.

sevendaughters

I would score it even; MJF's second barrage was better and more withering. Makes you want to see the fight, which is the point.

up_the_hampipe

I would say the content and delivery of Punk's promos were far superior. MJF played his role well, but there should be no delusions that he's on Punk's level at this stage in his career. I think people assume it'll be easier to take on Punk now because there's all this ammunition, but ultimately it's nothing that hasn't been said in YouTube comment sections already, sometimes in harsher and/or funnier ways.

BeardFaceMan

Quote from: Ja'moke on November 25, 2021, 01:41:30 AMSadly it was followed by a too long QT match

I didn't get that at all. Of all the people on the roster Punk should be having a competitive match with, QT Marshall would probably be the last person on that list. And i hate that they're doing the "beat the champion in order to get a match with the champion" stip with Baker, but other than that, another cracking show, they're having quite the run of form lately.

Gurke and Hare

Quote from: BeardFaceMan on November 25, 2021, 10:44:34 AMAnd i hate that they're doing the "beat the champion in order to get a match with the champion" stip with Baker

Is there any reason that any singles match a champion has (or a straight tag match if it's the tag champions) shouldn't be a title match. Especially given the AEW "more sports like" approach - it should be the same as it is in boxing. Is that how MMA works too?

Ja'moke

I don't mind the beat the champ stip too much here because at least Riho has a valid reason. And I'm glad they didn't forget about Riho not being eliminated from the battle royal.

BeardFaceMan

Quote from: Gurke and Hare on November 25, 2021, 11:09:03 AMIs there any reason that any singles match a champion has (or a straight tag match if it's the tag champions) shouldn't be a title match. Especially given the AEW "more sports like" approach - it should be the same as it is in boxing. Is that how MMA works too?

That's what I think too, the only time a champ should be wrestling is in a championship match, it would add a bit more prestige to the belt, make it a bit more special and worth going after, and put over the person holding it more too.

The main reason I don't like the stip is that it usually plays out the same way - challenger beats champ, gets championship match, champ wins, everyone moves on. Not that I'm unhappy about more Riho on my TV but I'd rather they just gave her a title match because she didn't get eliminated rather than do it like this.

Ja'moke

I think the champ usually wins in AEW in these matches anyway.

The only time I remember the challengers winning was Eddie and Penta against the Bucks.

BeardFaceMan

After what happened last night it wouldn't suprise me if Riho won the first match and got a title match because of some sort of Hayter involvement.

Ja'moke

Quote from: BeardFaceMan on November 25, 2021, 11:36:20 AMAfter what happened last night it wouldn't suprise me if Riho won the first match and got a title match because of some sort of Hayter involvement.

That makes sense.

Deanjam

The crowd reacted to the Miz line more than if Punk had just called him a cunt. It amused me as I used to call MJF that too, though he's already a better worker than Miz now.

BeardFaceMan

Bryan kicking Colts teeth out was a nice touch too, dude has been on fire since he arrived in AEW.

Old Thrashbarg

Quote from: Ja'moke on November 25, 2021, 11:09:24 AMI don't mind the beat the champ stip too much here because at least Riho has a valid reason. And I'm glad they didn't forget about Riho not being eliminated from the battle royal.

Yeah, I don't mind that at all in this case. Riho hasn't earned the title match, but she was robbed of the opportunity to earn the title match. So she's now being given the opportunity to earn the title match.

Hangman vs Danielson is going to be great when they finally get round to it. And this is such a good way of them building the feud.

BeardFaceMan

Quote from: Old Thrashbarg on November 25, 2021, 05:40:16 PMYeah, I don't mind that at all in this case. Riho hasn't earned the title match, but she was robbed of the opportunity to earn the title match. So she's now being given the opportunity to earn the title match.

True enough, just seems silly to have to earn an opportunity to face the champ by beating the champ, its not like they don't have other women there Riho could go against to earn a shot. I also think it takes away from the eventual championship match because you've just seen them fight, the match doesn't seem as special any more.

Magnum Valentino

I think I've figured out why the CM Punk stuff doesn't work for me. It's too much like we know the actor/performer and can't buy the character any more.

That promo battle was completely one-sided for me because it was the wrestling character MJF taking shots at Phil Brooks the real person for things that happened to him in reality. Punk having a dig at MJF for his parents being rich is a dig at that character (even if that happens to be true or not, I don't know), whereas Punk not measuring up to Vince's expectations of Triple H and Big Match John and losing his MMA matches and even peaking with the pipe bomb promo is all stuff for smart marks.

While it may be exciting to hear someone call someone else out for their real life failings (doesn't work for me but the crowds are into it), the problem is that CM Punk the character cannot exist at the same time as CM Punk the real man, and it's the real man who's standing there smirking as a ludicrously mannered wrestling character insults his real life. So when he threatens someone, all of a sudden it's a real man threatening a pretend man, and that doesn't work at all.

I don't know how you could fix this. Punk's best work was character work but they have to stop this shooting bullshit because all it serves is as a reminder that this is a real person, and I don't need Hans Gruber asking John McClane if he ever copped off with Cybill Shepherd on the set of Moonlighting.

Even if you look around at the rest of the roster, the champ is a character, the last champ was a character, the stables are all made up of wild characters - where's the room for a 'shooter' in AEW, especially one like Punk whose personal life is so intimately known to most of the clued-in audience. It's not like he's Dan Severn where there's a real risk he could kill somebody in his big sweaty t-shirt - without suspension of disbelief, I don't think CM Punk works at all.

I wish I wasn't over feeling happy for him being back, but I guess I am.

BeardFaceMan

Excellent post. That's was my problem with all the lovefest stuff, we're not watching CM Punk, we're watching Phil from Chicago, that's why I kept saying I wanted him to go to work.

spanky

Shave Serena's head and get the Straight Edge Society going again

Mickie James is working a very similar "fan favourite legend returns" run in Impact but it's working perfectly.

I think the difference is that James' run has allowed her to seem vulnerable. They put the belt on her, so there's something at stake, she's constantly on the back foot and, most importantly, she's making Raquel Gonzalez look strong. She's constantly getting jumped and they did a great skit at her ranch where Gonzalez turns up with a film crew and beats the fuck out of James whilst she's tending to her horses. It shows that you can have a real person facing kayfabe characters and make it work.

Punk's run falls down because it's not really putting anyone over and there's nothing at stake. Nobody's getting a rub by facing him and it's not really enhancing him either. It's just a bit pointless.

Ja'moke

Quote from: Huxleys Babkins on November 26, 2021, 10:49:23 AMMickie James is working a very similar "fan favourite legend returns" run in Impact but it's working perfectly.

I think the difference is that James' run has allowed her to seem vulnerable. They put the belt on her, so there's something at stake, she's constantly on the back foot and, most importantly, she's making Raquel Gonzalez look strong. She's constantly getting jumped and they did a great skit at her ranch where Gonzalez turns up with a film crew and beats the fuck out of James whilst she's tending to her horses. It shows that you can have a real person facing kayfabe characters and make it work.

Punk's run falls down because it's not really putting anyone over and there's nothing at stake. Nobody's getting a rub by facing him and it's not really enhancing him either. It's just a bit pointless.

I think you mean Deonna Purrazzo, not Raquel Gonzalez.

Also I think you're all mad regarding Punk. He's been excellent and that promo off on Wednesday was an all-time classic, and it definitely helped elevate MJF. I saw the segment was the #2 trending video on all of YouTube.


Punk has always blurred that line between the real man and the character. That's always been the appeal, from signing his WWE contract in a ROH ring to the pipebomb to now. It's why that promo with Eddie was so compelling, because both men teeter that line between reality and fiction.

Quote from: Ja'moke on November 26, 2021, 12:47:07 PMI think you mean Deonna Purrazzo, not Raquel Gonzalez.

An angle so good, it put the wrong woman over in my head.

Magnum Valentino

Quote from: Ja'moke on November 26, 2021, 12:47:07 PMI think you mean Deonna Purrazzo, not Raquel Gonzalez.

Also I think you're all mad regarding Punk. He's been excellent and that promo off on Wednesday was an all-time classic, and it definitely helped elevate MJF. I saw the segment was the #2 trending video on all of YouTube.


Punk has always blurred that line between the real man and the character. That's always been the appeal, from signing his WWE contract in a ROH ring to the pipebomb to now. It's why that promo with Eddie was so compelling, because both men teeter that line between reality and fiction.

That's a really good point but I think it reinforces mine, because it doesn't work with MJF because he's NOT on that line. I disagree that Punk's appeal lay in that level of faux-reality. For me, the appeal was the nasty cunt that poured Paul Bearer's remains all over him, or was kicking against management on the audience's side.

Punk's been elevated to such a position now that he can only kick down. There's an element of the WWE Legends problem - there's no way they would bring, fuckin, JBL back for a RAW and not have him go over some young guy. Punk's the same. He needs to be fighting against something above him.

Ja'moke

Quote from: Magnum Valentino on November 26, 2021, 01:04:31 PMThat's a really good point but I think it reinforces mine, because it doesn't work with MJF because he's NOT on that line. I disagree that Punk's appeal lay in that level of faux-reality. For me, the appeal was the nasty cunt that poured Paul Bearer's remains all over him, or was kicking against management on the audience's side.

I think it works with MJF though because Punk's real life issues apply to MJF the character. The whole thing about Punk always being number two is based on reality (he was always second fiddle to Cena or Triple H), but it ties perfectly to MJF the character, whose biggest insecurity is being seen as second best.

That was the basis of the MJF and Darby feud and the whole four pillars thing. MJF noted that it was him and Darby at the top of those pillars, but wanted to make it clear that Darby will always be second best to him. That's when we saw the more psychotic side of MJF come out in that promo when he beat down Sting. He's an insecure psycho that can't stand that Darby is more popular than him.

And it was brought back up in this latest promo, when Punk mentioned picking Darby as his first opponent, "the heart and soul of AEW," and how that chewed MJF up. And "You talk so much of being the most powerful of the four pillars that you don't even realise you've been replaced by Britt Baker."

All of this is really good stuff to me and works on two levels. It works because of Punk's history in the business and his real life issues. And it works because those issues reflect MJF the character and his insecurities and motivations.

BeardFaceMan

Quote from: Magnum Valentino on November 26, 2021, 01:04:31 PMPunk's been elevated to such a position now that he can only kick down. There's an element of the WWE Legends problem - there's no way they would bring, fuckin, JBL back for a RAW and not have him go over some young guy. Punk's the same. He needs to be fighting against something above him.

Another excellent point, that's why I've been against this "better than" treatment he's been getting. It doesn't help anyone, no one is getting any rub. It was a good promo, but saying things like MJF has been elevated by it when we haven't even seen him do anything since is where the madness lies. People just need to calm down a bit about Punk, stop treating like a God and start treating him like a wrestler.

I don't have an issue with how Punk has been treated (of course he's going to be lauded, he's CM Punk) but I do have an issue with how this feud started. CM Punk came out last week during MJF's promo... and I still don't really know why. It was a great promo segment Wednesday and I can understand MJF being annoyed but Punk? He sees MJF as the kind of guy who held him down previously? Maybe?

In fact, this is the problem I have with most of Punks stuff so far (except the Eddie Kingston buildup and match), why is he doing it? Does he want to be the champ? Show he's still got it? Wanting to help the young guys is so vague as to be meaningless.

Ja'moke

Punk started to get some boos against Eddie, so for his next feud, he chose the one guy on the roster that is universally hated and who he won't get booed against, MJF. I bet you that becomes part of the story... maybe not for a while, but I'd love for Eddie to eventually bring that up when they circle back around to that feud.

It seems they're playing into this Punk has become Cena thing. The guy who thinks he can just come out there, suck up to the fans, and demand whatever match he wants. Again, it was a big part of MJF's promo.