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March 28, 2024, 09:01:38 PM

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Shane Meadows appreciation

Started by Magnum Valentino, July 29, 2022, 11:02:37 PM

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sevendaughters


Magnum Valentino

The shot of Les Battersby sitting alone at the end of 24/7 hit me like a bastard when I watched it with the commentary.

No spoilers please as I still have TIE 90 and The Virtues to watch but I'm wondering if there are any truly irredeemable cunts in Meadows' work. Jonesy was a cunt throughout that entire film and that last wee moment just encourages you to spare a moments doubt wondering if there's hope for him and his family yet.

sevendaughters

rewatched DMS last night actually for the first time in a decade or so. Magnum says you shouldn't root for Richard but I think the film invites us to do so and only complicates a simple reading near the end; the little confrontation with Mark at the end flips what we've seen from a pornographic revenge fantasy into something uglier and more tied up with shame and guilt and loss and all the ugly weird emotions men are classically shit at living with.

There's an American website called World Socialist Website that has a long-standing and interesting critic called David Walsh who is always dry and critical about nearly everything. Here's what he says on DMS:

QuoteShane Meadows has been given numerous opportunities to make independent films about British working class life—24/7: Twenty Four Seven (1997), A Room for Romeo Brass (1999), Once Upon a Time in the Midlands (2002) and now Dead Man's Shoes (2004)—and has failed each time. This last work concerns the vengeance wreaked on a gang of local lowlifes by the brother of one of their victims.

Meadows explains that the film developed out of a conversation with actor Paddy Considine (who plays the avenging angel) about the "everyday atrocities that go unheeded in Britain's small towns" (quoting the film's production notes). In Dead Man's Shoes, set in a Midlands village, the director addresses this problem by bringing to the screen a series of appallingly violent and pointless acts.

Meadows fails to grasp that while his stated theme may be the senselessness of the "atrocities," he all too obviously revels in organizing the bloodshed; the overall effect of the film is to glorify the carnage. One is confronted here with an extraordinary level of artistic and social unconsciousness.

Given that we do want Richard to go in on these cunts I do think Walsh has a bit of a point regarding glorification or the carnage (I just don't have a problem with that) but I don't know how much Walsh gets about the context of the films. It is interesting to me that most British left-leaning types will immediately recognise the post-Thatcherite coalfield towns of Meadows to the point where he barely needs to even state it. I also think both Meadows and Walsh are concerned about moral degradation and violence here, so it's a shame that Walsh can't grasp that deeper sensibility here and see they're on the same page.

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: buzby on August 03, 2022, 10:57:20 AMSort of Meadows-adjecent, but Considine's directorial debut Tyrannosaur is obviously indebted to his work with Meadows, and is similarly powerful and harrowing as Meadows at his best.


Someone I drew immediate directorial comparisons with (and I think casting Peter Mullan certainly helped with this) was Ken Loach. His second film, Journeyman also cemented that. I don't think he's as political but the kitchen-sinkiness and social commentary is there I think.

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: There Be Rumblings on August 04, 2022, 12:44:38 PMI also agree Dead Man's Shoes is a masterpiece.

One thing that always puzzled me about it was the car. The green and white 2CV that Sonny and his gang go around in. It always felt like a bit of welcome light relief in a film that is otherwise quite relentlessly bleak, but it also felt really tonally incongruous. The gang are only small-time gangsters and dealers, but they are also meant to be genuinely hard and evil men, Sonny in particular. They're dangerous. So why are they shown travelling around in this stupid car?

But it's really obvious, isn't it. Richard knows that his training and abilities as a paratrooper put him so far ahead of them in what they perceive as the fight between them and him, that they can't be taken seriously. They're a joke to him. In the scene where they spot him in the street and pull up in it, and he laughs in Sonny's face, he just sees clowns. It's a clown car.

They're the smallest of small-time gangsters in a shithouse town, it's in keeping with the person them answering to having a quite old BMW probably only worth a few grand. The campiness of a 2CV Dolly Edition is quite funny and I'm sure it was intentionally picked for humour but I think it works given the above.

El Unicornio, mang

Quote from: There Be Rumblings on August 04, 2022, 12:44:38 PMI also agree Dead Man's Shoes is a masterpiece.

One thing that always puzzled me about it was the car. The green and white 2CV that Sonny and his gang go around in. It always felt like a bit of welcome light relief in a film that is otherwise quite relentlessly bleak, but it also felt really tonally incongruous. The gang are only small-time gangsters and dealers, but they are also meant to be genuinely hard and evil men, Sonny in particular. They're dangerous. So why are they shown travelling around in this stupid car?

But it's really obvious, isn't it. Richard knows that his training and abilities as a paratrooper put him so far ahead of them in what they perceive as the fight between them and him, that they can't be taken seriously. They're a joke to him. In the scene where they spot him in the street and pull up in it, and he laughs in Sonny's face, he just sees clowns. It's a clown car.

Definite clown car vibes.

I love Dead Man's Shoes, and as someone who lived in the midlands for a few years I can sadly identify with the grim characters depicted.

paddy72

Been a huge fan of Meadows' work, even since seeing 24/7.

When Dead Man's Shoes came out in 2004, I watched it every day for about a week – was quite obsessed, went round Riber Castle when it was still ruins and you could stand in the little room where Anthony
Spoiler alert
hung himself.
[close]
(I kinda thought Toby Kebbell would go on to great things after that performance, but he never really seems to have matched it.)

The scene where they're sitting in the tyre and Anthony says he didn't need to hold Richard's hand breaks my heart every single time. You just know Richard has told him that, without us needing to see it.

Quote from: holyzombiejesus on August 02, 2022, 04:35:09 PMHe's recently been filming an adaptation of Ben Myers' The Gallows Pole near where I live.

Are you a fellow Heptonstall dweller? :)

I saw Shane out for his morning jog a couple of times during the filming of Gallows Pole.

Quote from: iamcoop on August 04, 2022, 12:58:49 AMI'm interested to see who's cast as when I read the book, in my mind I couldn't help but picture David Hartley as essentially being a Yorkshire version of Ralph Ineson's character in The VVitch. This is so burnt into my brain that it'll be weird seeing anyone else do it to be honest.

Michael Socha is playing David Hartley, but I can confirm that Ralph Ineson is in it somewhere, because I saw him filming in the village.

One of the things I love about Meadows' work is his pitch perfect use of music. The DMS soundtrack is superb.

If you've never seen Shane's documentary about his friend Gavin Clark (features on the soundtrack, tragically passed away in 2015), it's here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVJBYBUabbU

holyzombiejesus

Quote from: paddy72 on August 06, 2022, 05:32:50 PMAre you a fellow Heptonstall dweller? :)


No, Tod. Didn't know there were any other Calder folk on here! I was near you (Fox & Goose) last night til far too late. We actually had a C&B meet there a couple of years ago.

Quote from: paddy72 on August 06, 2022, 05:32:50 PMOne of the things I love about Meadows' work is his pitch perfect use of music.


Except for that shitty mawkish Smith's cover at the end of This is England.

paddy72

#38
Quote from: holyzombiejesus on August 06, 2022, 06:08:55 PMNo, Tod. Didn't know there were any other Calder folk on here! I was near you (Fox & Goose) last night til far too late. We actually had a C&B meet there a couple of years ago.

How about that – I run a monthly blues jam at the Fox & Goose. That would definitely be a good spot for a C&B meet, hope there's another one in the area at some point.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

I've always got time for Meadows, but I've been rather lazy about watching his work. The only ones I've seen are A Room For Romeo Brass, Dead Man's Shoes, This is England (film only) and The Virtues. I have a couple quibbles: realistic as it might be, I'm not entirely on board with the ending of ARFRB, when his horrible dad is treated like a hero; I feel kind of shit saying so, given the real life story behind it, but I still think The Virtues was padded out for telly and would have been better as a film. These aside, they're all superb.

Excellent performances all round. Have Paddy Considine and Stephen Graham ever shared the screen, or would that just be too intense?

Quote from: sevendaughters on August 06, 2022, 11:32:22 AMThere's an American website called World Socialist Website that has a long-standing and interesting critic called David Walsh who is always dry and critical about nearly everything. Here's what he says on DMS:
...
I remember reading a similar negative review in the British press. It accused Meadows and Considine of indulging in some macho fantasy, which seems to miss the point of the film by a mile. I wonder if the revelation about the abuse Meadows suffered would change their opinion, given the film's theme of pent up emotion. The reviewer also seemed to have the right horn for Gary Stretch and thought he and Considine should have swapped roles.

non capisco

Rewatched Romeo Brass and Dead Man's Shoes back to back thanks to this thread and it brought home to me what a versatile actor Considine is. (Plus he really looks like my great mate and sometime CaB poster Bobby Treetops).

The IMDb trivia page on Romeo Brass gives a clue why you never saw the child actor who played Romeo's mate Knocks again, as good as he was. Apparently Considine says on the DVD commentary that the scene where he turns on him with a knife was easy to play because "I couldn't wait to get my hands on the little shit."

Magnum Valentino

Yeah I listened to that and he really rubbed Andrew Shim up the wrong way too. The scene where the three of them are in the van for the first time was supposedly a nightmare to film cause the two lads just kept fighting over stupid childish stuff.

Magnum Valentino

Watched This Is England last night and am straight into the series - can't quite get my head around Banjo being presented as one the 'fun' gang on the bus right at the start when he was salivating waiting for his turn to beat Milky up during the climax of the film, and Milky sitting beside him and all.

I know the stuff with Combo is resolved and Meggy was there too but at least he seemed like he wanted out of there. Feels like a tonal and total oversight.

Have also watched Somers Town and The Virtues since last in here. More thoughts to follow, just wanted to flag that Banjo gaffe (?) before I forgot.

madhair60

Felt like the end of Romeo Brass isn't meant to be especially heroic for the dad? It "resolves" the situation in the most unpleasant and difficult to watch manner, with Morell being completely helpless. All I see in that sequence is a bloodthirsty cunt beating up a severely mentally ill man, and I'm fairly sure that's by design

sevendaughters

I felt the ending sort of lifts the magnifying glass a bit, yeah it's horrible because they're kids, but with some reasonable intervention Morrell is actually just a local cunt (who is obviously ill) and the event is not actually that important even though in the midst of it seems it (like every film does)

Magnum Valentino

Quote from: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on August 06, 2022, 07:38:16 PMExcellent performances all round. Have Paddy Considine and Stephen Graham ever shared the screen, or would that just be too intense?

I've just spotted that Considine's in a deleted scene from the last series of This is England by accident (making sure the files work), but I've not watched it yet and yeah, he's in the prison yard with Combo

Imagine cutting Paddy Considine out of anything!

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

Cutting him out of The Bourne Ultimatum wouldn't have been a bad idea. I thought he was shockingly wooden in that (although I have only seen it once).

checkoutgirl

I'm a fan and just finished watching The Virtues. He likes tough material and gravitates towards abuse, mental illness and stuff like that so his TV shows are hard going because there's hours and hours of it. A film is just 90 minutes or so, so at least you get out of it pretty quickly.

He overlaps with Mike Leigh quite a lot, kitchen sink aesthetics, working with great actors and coming up with some pretty compelling and interesting stuff usually that pushes the actors to earn their fee.

His films are invariably decent to excellent, especially when titans like Stephen Graham and Paddy Considine are involved. He seems to attract quality actors to him and augments it with new finds that he met in the pub. This literally happened to a woman who grew up in the small village I grew up in. She just went up to him in the pub and got a small role in 1986, then a main role in The Virtues.

I couldn't finish the extended TV show of This is England 1982, 1986 etc etc. I think I got to the second last episode of the whole thing and bailed out half way through. I just couldn't take any more of it. The grimness can really build up if you watch episodes in one big go.

From a British film perspective he seems to cover the serious stuff while Winterbottom covers the humour. Wheatley sort of falls a bit short. Meadows is great though and there's plenty more to come I'm sure.

Magnum Valentino

Quote from: checkoutgirl on August 12, 2022, 11:15:43 AMThis literally happened to a woman who grew up in the small village I grew up in. She just went up to him in the pub and got a small role in 1986, then a main role in The Virtues.

I couldn't believe that when I read it. She's so fucking good in The Virtues, another example of what I may have mentioned earlier about just witnessing truth onscreen. She's performing but there's no performance in it, it really feels like you're watching someone living their life. I actually think she showed some of the rest of the cast of that series up, to be honest, her husband in particular.

Quote from: checkoutgirl on August 12, 2022, 11:15:43 AMI couldn't finish the extended TV show of This is England 1982, 1986 etc etc. I think I got to the second last episode of the whole thing and bailed out half way through. I just couldn't take any more of it. The grimness can really build up if you watch episodes in one big go.

I don't blame you - I watched the last episode of 86, all of 88 and up until that same episode of 90 in one go last night and that scene at the dinner table where it all comes out is one of the most gruelling things to watch I've ever seen. It might have even knackered me a bit more than the last half hour of The Virtues. I think it's because Shaun and Lol's nurse friend are sat there as witnesses, passengers even, and the same appears to be true of Milky until the issue of Combo comes up and he loses it with regard to his daughter. It's the first time Andrew Shim really gets a chance to shine across that whole run I think. Perhaps the nature of Milky's character being so easy-going, admirably soft even. Something about his use of the phrase 'my black daughter' really brought it into a really clear focus. Shattered me that did.

Anyone want to talk about the TV This is Englands and their occasionally unbelivable elements? Probably the worst of it is that extended plot where Gadge hooks up with your one Trudy and Meggy's son is there, dressed like a little Meggy, which seems to go on for ages. But then there's Woody's boss popping out of the corner unit in the first episode of 1990 that plays like a comedy sketch. There's a hallucinatory aspect to some of the TV scenes which runs the gamut from effective (the scenes with Mick's ghost are evidence that Shane would be a fantastic horror director) to underwhelming (turning up at that lad with the hot tub's house for ANOTHER party montage) to almost ruinously bad (Woody on the phone to his auld pair with the split screen going from him and his dad Pete Durant to him and his dad and his mum to him and his dad and his mum AND the TV screen). It's a mixed bag but the highlights of 88 and 90 are amongst the best work of his career, and most of the cast (Gilgun and Socha in particular) are always on top form.

madhair60

Quote from: Magnum Valentino on August 12, 2022, 11:31:28 AM(the scenes with Mick's ghost are evidence that Shane would be a fantastic horror director)

And is, what with Dead Man's Shoes. Obvs.

sevendaughters

I find all the 'comedy' stuff with Woody at work and his partner living at his parents just laced with unbearable sadness.

checkoutgirl

The rape scene in 1986/1990 was absolutely harrowing. I can't imagine what's going through the actor's and director's heads when that scene is going down. Even that episode where they go to a festival and having a lovely time has that dark underbelly when the girl goes off taking heroin and getting done by a load of disgusting trampy looking blokes.

It's just too much at times.

Brundle-Fly

Quote from: checkoutgirl on August 12, 2022, 12:00:50 PMThe rape scene in 1986/1990 was absolutely harrowing. I can't imagine what's going through the actor's and director's heads when that scene is going down. Even that episode where they go to a festival and having a lovely time has that dark underbelly when the girl goes off taking heroin and getting done by a load of disgusting trampy looking blokes.

It's just too much at times.

I thought it was entirely unnecessary in TIE '90. It felt like the scene was tagged on for the sake of shock. Why couldn't she just have had a messy one night stand in a field and felt cheap the next day? No, she has to be drugged of her eyeballs and gangraped in a caravan by the nasty hippies.

Brundle-Fly

Quote from: Magnum Valentino on August 06, 2022, 09:42:00 AMI'm wondering if there are any truly irredeemable cunts in Meadows' work.

Ian Brown?

Magnum Valentino

Woody's swastika tattoo was a big surprise as well - he makes it very clear in the film as soon as Combo starts in with all that shit that he wants nothing to do with it. There's nothing else across the whole series to suggest Woody is even remotely racist. Whawereallthaddabout?

sevendaughters

I find all the 'comedy' stuff with Woody at work and his partner living at his parents just laced with unbearable sadness.
Quote from: Magnum Valentino on August 12, 2022, 12:50:29 PMWoody's swastika tattoo was a big surprise as well - he makes it very clear in the film as soon as Combo starts in with all that shit that he wants nothing to do with it. There's nothing else across the whole series to suggest Woody is even remotely racist. Whawereallthaddabout?

I'm having to remember here as I haven't seen film or series for a while but I think it suggests at one point Woody was probably Shaun.

checkoutgirl

#56
Quote from: Brundle-Fly on August 12, 2022, 12:39:08 PMgangraped in a caravan by the nasty hippies

It's an interesting point but I think that scene was consensual and the fact that it was consensual indicated her state of mind at the time. She had a trauma and her response was to try and blot it out with hard drugs and being used like a doll by a gang of disgusting crusty blokes in a caravan.

It's pretty horrible but stuff like that does happen. The camera work was kind of blurred and shaky so maybe I missed the bit that showed her not consenting. But even if that was shown, she might have put herself in that situation knowing it could have got out of hand but did it anyway, like she wasn't thinking straight or something. It's kind of murky in my mind and it does ask some unpleasant questions.

Magnum Valentino

I also got the impression that it was consensual - there's a shot of her with a look of particular presence and disinterest.   

the science eel

Quote from: checkoutgirl on August 12, 2022, 11:15:43 AMHe overlaps with Mike Leigh quite a lot, kitchen sink aesthetics, working with great actors and coming up with some pretty compelling and interesting stuff usually that pushes the actors to earn their fee.

but there's clearly more affection for the working class whereas with Leigh they're often presented as caricatures, grotesques even

sevendaughters

Quote from: the science eel on August 12, 2022, 01:50:08 PMbut there's clearly more affection for the working class whereas with Leigh they're often presented as caricatures, grotesques even

usually his middle class characters are, like the landlord in Naked, or the various attendees of Abigails Party, but there's usually a bit more leeway in the working class types like the solo camper in Nuts in May or Johnny from Naked, admittedly they are all total caricatures by Peterloo

always felt Meadows was a disciple of Alan Clarke tbh