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March 28, 2024, 03:50:01 PM

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RTD back for Doctor Who

Started by Jack Shaftoe, September 24, 2021, 04:17:47 PM

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purlieu

All I remember in The Next Doctor was a series of drawings of them which were only seen briefly, were there actual clips?

Mister Six

Yeah, I think the Cyber-whatever-it-was that implanted The Doctor's memories in Jackson's head displayed some footage from the old show and TV movie in a sort of glowy blue hologram form. Something like that.

Mister Six

#1232
Quote from: purlieu on May 09, 2022, 04:43:28 PMRussell's never been huge on long continuity things though, has he?

I don't know that RTD was necessarily against including stuff from the old show, I think it was more that he was deliberately treading carefully in order to not scare off newcomers. You can see a gradual shift to more traditional Who as the show moves on: first story set away from Earth (or its orbit) and reappearance of Sarah Jane and K-9 in S2, first mention of Gallifrey and first non-urban Earth stories in S3, the slow reintroduction of the Cybes, The Master, Davros, Sontarans, even the Macra(!) across the whole series...

By the time Smith and Moffat were in place it was a huge success and they could really let the brakes off. Sadly, I imagine RTD will want to get back to Eccles-esque basics for Gatwa, to try to win over new audiences and those who drifted away from Chibnall's incoherent fanwank (and some of Moffat's fanwank, let's face it).

Thomas

One thing that I could imagine being a source of frustration for any incoming showrunner is that Gallifrey is fucked again and the Doctor is once more the last of the Time Lords - but for much crapper, and far less emotionally weighted, reasons than the first time round.

The Timeless Child backstory can be ignored - it was only ever corroborated by the Master and the nonsensical Tecteun anyway - but unfortunately Gallifrey's present state is more concrete, and to ignore it would be strange. The Doctor has always cared about Gallifrey; its absence or presence has always (except during Chibnall's run) impacted on their psychology and motivations.

Would be weird if the Doctor suddenly didn't give a shit about his homeworld, and the fact that his Day of the Doctor heroics - a redemptive culmination of RTD's original arc - have recently been totally undone. However, it would also be rubbish if the show dedicated another story to restoring Gallifrey again.

Brokenly rubbish!

Mister Six

Quote from: Thomas on May 09, 2022, 10:21:00 PMThe Timeless Child backstory can be ignored - it was only ever corroborated by the Master and the nonsensical Tecteun anyway - but unfortunately Gallifrey's present state is more concrete, and to ignore it would be strange. The Doctor has always cared about Gallifrey; its absence or presence has always (except during Chibnall's run) impacted on their psychology and motivations.

Maybe Chibnall will restore Gallifrey before he goes. And undo almost all humans in the galaxy being killed by Cybercunt and his mates. And fix the Flux obliterating swathes of the universe. And probably some other atrocities that The Doctor has let happen and Chibnall never saw fit to address...

Replies From View

Quote from: Thomas on May 09, 2022, 10:21:00 PMOne thing that I could imagine being a source of frustration for any incoming showrunner is that Gallifrey is fucked again and the Doctor is once more the last of the Time Lords - but for much crapper, and far less emotionally weighted, reasons than the first time round.

The Timeless Child backstory can be ignored - it was only ever corroborated by the Master and the nonsensical Tecteun anyway - but unfortunately Gallifrey's present state is more concrete, and to ignore it would be strange. The Doctor has always cared about Gallifrey; its absence or presence has always (except during Chibnall's run) impacted on their psychology and motivations.

Would be weird if the Doctor suddenly didn't give a shit about his homeworld, and the fact that his Day of the Doctor heroics - a redemptive culmination of RTD's original arc - have recently been totally undone. However, it would also be rubbish if the show dedicated another story to restoring Gallifrey again.

Brokenly rubbish!

All good points.  And interesting.  I suspect RTD will perform some kind of reset - a repositioning of Gallifrey as he wants it to be, without really addressing any of the backstory.

There's no reason to acknowledge the state that Chibnall has left the show in.  Maybe this is why leaving Whittaker's regeneration open-ended could be a good idea - it allows an unspecified amount of time to have passed between Chibnall and RTD, so the latter can do what he wants to do.

Maybe a version of Moffat's series 5 cracks could account for things we don't like during Chibnall's tenure.  Or RTD could set a story in the Matrix a few series from now, in which it becomes apparent that it's possible for the Doctor to experience falsified versions of events (without actually boring us with specifics about Chibnall's time).  Dunno.  But he should leave it all alone for now.

Deanjam

First episode in I would just have some weird space McGuffin reset the entire timeline. Have the Doctor say "Everything happened, but nothing is the same as before. Let's find out what's out there!" And begin your completely reset space/time adventures of a weird alien and his human (presumably) friends.

Replies From View

I had forgotten how Chibnall had wrecked Gallifrey again for no reason.  Why would any showrunner with only three series to play around, and therefore no long-term plans, do anything like that so soon after the emotional arc culminating in The Day of the Doctor?  "I don't like Gallifrey and the Time Lords being around, so I'm going to do this because I want to force the next showrunner not to have them," seems to have been his entire motivation.  It's staggering in both its entitlement and its ineptitude, for so many reasons.

For a brief moment I wondered whether RTD might have asked him to get rid of Gallifrey again so that he'd be inheriting a version of the show without Gallifrey, and Chibnall just fucked up the execution of it.  But apparently Chibnall had no idea RTD would be returning until about a day before we all knew, so we can't even give him that benefit of the doubt.

Replies From View

Quote from: Deanjam on May 09, 2022, 10:44:36 PMFirst episode in I would just have some weird space McGuffin reset the entire timeline. Have the Doctor say "Everything happened, but nothing is the same as before. Let's find out what's out there!" And begin your completely reset space/time adventures of a weird alien and his human (presumably) friends.

Or just have the reset already sufficiently in the past that it doesn't require mentioning.

Mister Six

#1239
Yeah, just a big time gap between Jodie and Ncuti, a passing mention of him "putting things right/tidying up" before meeting his new companion, and Gallifrey is back and ready to be reintroduced a few series on, with details to be given in some Big Finish story I'll never have to listen to.

Alberon

The Gallifrey High Council saw what was coming (they're fucking Time Lords after all) and dispatched the vast majority of their population (using those fancy time machines which are far bigger on the inside) and then rebuilt after the Master was defeated.

To be honest you could cover it in a couple of lines when the Doctor meets Romana. Then just steer clear of Gallifrey for the next five years or so as it's getting overused.

purlieu

Quote from: Mister Six on May 09, 2022, 10:10:47 PMI don't know that RTD was necessarily against including stuff from the old show, I think it was more that he was deliberately treading carefully in order to not scare off newcomers.
Oh, yeah, definitely. I suppose I just think, compared to Moffat and Chiball, he was far less invested in tying in loads of elements from the past and more involved in creating a 'now' version of the show. He understands that it always works best when it's not trying to live up to its legacy and is free to simply be. I have a feeling he'll try and do something similar again.

Mister Six

That makes sense, and I agree. I think Moffat's frequently motivated by meta concerns: the little girl hiding behind the sofa in Silence in the Library; retcons as an actual threat in season 5; Let's Kill Hitler as a commentary on why Who should never deal with "real" recent history (and why it's not the same as Star Trek - I'm sure he was thinking of City on the Edge of Forever, an episode about not changing history lest you inadvertently cause the Nazis to win WWII, when he introduced the Enterprise-like Tesselecta crew); Clara testing what happens when a companion tries to become the protagonist; Capaldi initially being conceived as an inversion of established "Doctorly" tropes only to embrace his position as a "madman in a box"; all the little in-jokes like Clara's list of dates missing out the years that Who wasn't on, or the semi-reboot first episode of S10 being called "The Pilot".

Personally I love that kind of thing, but it can make the show feel a bit detached and up itself, and probably a bit less welcoming than Davies's more down-to-Earth and finger-on-the-pulse sensibilities.

Cloud

Was away over the weekend and this sure came as a surprise

Totally neutral, never seen him before other than the 3 clips posted a couple of pages back.  Excited as ever now that I know someone competent is in charge.

As for continuity it'll be interesting if this era ends in a "Doctor fails regeneration and dies... maybe" kind of cliffhanger and the new one just starts with the latest as if nothing ever happened.  I have a feeling that's the way it'll go.

Quote from: Mister Six on May 08, 2022, 05:30:16 PMIt's quite funny (and sad) how many people are heralding the arrival of "the first black Doctor", having already forgotten about Chibnall's Ruth Doctor. Poor Jo Martin.

I'm mixed about this to be honest.  I agree, but also like to think that RTD will just retcon all the Timeless Child bollocks, which unfortunately, would take Ruth out in the crossfire.

Mister Six

Quote from: Cloud on May 10, 2022, 02:04:15 AMI'm mixed about this to be honest.  I agree, but also like to think that RTD will just retcon all the Timeless Child bollocks, which unfortunately, would take Ruth out in the crossfire.

Would say "what a waste of a perfectly good actor", but that applies to almost everyone in Chibnall's run. Ryan was about right for the material, I suppose.

Quote from: Replies From View on May 09, 2022, 10:53:12 PMI had forgotten how Chibnall had wrecked Gallifrey again for no reason.  Why would any showrunner with only three series to play around, and therefore no long-term plans, do anything like that so soon after the emotional arc culminating in The Day of the Doctor?  "I don't like Gallifrey and the Time Lords being around, so I'm going to do this because I want to force the next showrunner not to have them," seems to have been his entire motivation.  It's staggering in both its entitlement and its ineptitude, for so many reasons.

For a brief moment I wondered whether RTD might have asked him to get rid of Gallifrey again so that he'd be inheriting a version of the show without Gallifrey, and Chibnall just fucked up the execution of it.  But apparently Chibnall had no idea RTD would be returning until about a day before we all knew, so we can't even give him that benefit of the doubt.

I don't buy for one second that Chibnall was working knowing he only had three series. I'm absolutely convinced he and Whitaker have been cut short and the official line is just face saving PR.

Replies From View

Quote from: Huxleys Babkins on May 10, 2022, 05:43:44 AMI don't buy for one second that Chibnall was working knowing he only had three series. I'm absolutely convinced he and Whitaker have been cut short and the official line is just face saving PR.

It certainly feels like it when you take his more hubristic decisions into account.

I can believe Whittaker was due to leave after three series and a few specials, after all that's the norm for modern Doctors, and it's clear she would have had more episodes under her belt if covid hadn't necessitated a shrinkage of series 13.

But Chibnall, no.  A showrunner doesn't just mix all the paint together and rip the paper up without expecting to have further years to tidy it all up.  It's hard to know for sure, though - it could just be evidence of his immense incompetence.

Replies From View

#1247
Quote from: Mister Six on May 10, 2022, 02:31:56 AMWould say "what a waste of a perfectly good actor", but that applies to almost everyone in Chibnall's run. Ryan was about right for the material, I suppose.

Ruth Doctor wasn't performed very well; I don't know what everyone is talking about.  Am I the only one who saw someone standing around reading the lines out really flatly?

I'm not saying that's her fault - the lines were terrible and you'd need to be an incredible standard of actor to rise above them.  I've never seen her in anything else so maybe people are transferring their knowledge of her other acting abilities onto the Ruth Doctor.

But to me she was just standing around saying her lines, like a stoic Blue Peter presenter.  And it's a testament to the abject shitness of Chibnall's Who that she has stood out to people as one of its highlights.  I don't wish to be unkind to her but being an incarnation of the Doctor surely requires a greater acting range than we saw on screen.

Jack Shaftoe

#1248
I'm a bit bored of the Doctor being the last of his race and all that, it's (I suppose literally) a dead end. I'd like a gear change where at least a few Time Lords are out there now and the Doctor does bump into them every now and then like the Highlander bumping into other Immortals but without having to cut their heads off. Or the last Jedi scattered across the universe or summat, I don't know. I'd just like to see the Doctor in a bit of a sulk because he's not quite so special anymore, with the other Time Lords taking the piss out of him in front of his companions for failing all the Gallifreyan exams and not being able to pilot his TARDIS properly and making up rubbish like 'Venusian Akaido'.

I can barely remember what Chibnall did with Gallifrey or what the Timeless Child stuff was about other than he really fucked it up for the next person. My worry is he went to see No Way Home and the last episode will be some sort of multiverse Doctor story where over the space of one hour Chibs fucks it up for every possible version of the character across every dimension and a few more we didn't know about.

The Roofdog

Quote from: Replies From View on May 09, 2022, 10:53:12 PMI had forgotten how Chibnall had wrecked Gallifrey again for no reason.  Why would any showrunner with only three series to play around, and therefore no long-term plans, do anything like that so soon after the emotional arc culminating in The Day of the Doctor?

I complained before that S12 is a mash-up of two big arcs that don't necessarily have anything to do with each other (the Doctor has loads of pre-Hartnell regenerations and the Doctor worked for a shady Gallifreyan CIA totally against character) but it's actually three isn't it. There's no reason the Master has to destroy Gallifrey again as part of that either. In fact if you were going to write a story where it was revealed the Doctor had been majorly lied to by the Time Lords her entire life wouldn't you, you know... have her face off against some Time Lords? So if Chibnall doesn't bring back Gallifrey and get that conversation out of the way in his last episode it'll be massively weird for the next showrunner not to deal with it. Great.

Thomas

Alternatively, the unspoken, offscreen mechanism that repaired the entire universe after Flux also restored Gallifrey.

olliebean

The best thing would be if someone asks the Doctor about his origins in an early RTD2 episode, and he says "I don't like to talk about it. To be honest, it's all a bit of a mess." And then it's never mentioned again.

Replies From View

Quote from: olliebean on May 10, 2022, 10:32:05 AMThe best thing would be if someone asks the Doctor about his origins in an early RTD2 episode, and he says "I don't like to talk about it. To be honest, it's all a bit of a mess." And then it's never mentioned again.

Imagine if that's how the ninth Doctor had introduced himself to Rose instead of the hand-holding "forget me" scene.

Replies From View

Quote from: The Roofdog on May 10, 2022, 09:50:08 AMI complained before that S12 is a mash-up of two big arcs that don't necessarily have anything to do with each other (the Doctor has loads of pre-Hartnell regenerations and the Doctor worked for a shady Gallifreyan CIA totally against character) but it's actually three isn't it. There's no reason the Master has to destroy Gallifrey again as part of that either. In fact if you were going to write a story where it was revealed the Doctor had been majorly lied to by the Time Lords her entire life wouldn't you, you know... have her face off against some Time Lords? So if Chibnall doesn't bring back Gallifrey and get that conversation out of the way in his last episode it'll be massively weird for the next showrunner not to deal with it. Great.

The reason for destroying Gallifrey is so contrived and shoehorned that it feels like the outcome was deeply necessary, and yes Chibnall couldn't quite get the pieces together to reach it organically, but at least the end was reached, justifying the means.

The Master was furious to learn that the Doctor is the Timeless Child, and in a rage destroyed Gallifrey - there, done it!  Phew!!

"No, that justification doesn't make sense."

But at least Gallifrey has been destroyed!  That's the main thing!!

purlieu

Quote from: Mister Six on May 10, 2022, 01:10:52 AMPersonally I love that kind of thing, but it can make the show feel a bit detached and up itself, and probably a bit less welcoming than Davies's more down-to-Earth and finger-on-the-pulse sensibilities.
Yeah, I'm kind of the same, which is partially why I'm doing all the books and stuff, but after a while it's nice just to have some straight-forward Who. Capaldi's first couple of series felt like Moffat was getting a touch too self-indulgent even for me - is it series 9 that starts with Missy doing a flashback story in which people dressed as every past Doctor are glimpsed briefly or something? - and I do wonder if that sort of thing played into the falling viewing figures as much as Capaldi's characterisation.
Obviously Chibnall's mess is a sign that there really needs to be a change. I admired his decision to make his first series generally very low-stakes, and that was utterly demolished by everything that happened afterwards. Regardless of how (un)successful all the Timeless Child stuff was, the truth is your average viewer almost certainly doesn't care about the Doctor's origins. It's a show that's been around for 60 years and most people haven't watched most of it, so it's going to be almost soap opera-like for most people: they want to watch and enjoy what's happening now rather than go raking up the past. Doing it in Lungbarrow is fine, because the books are aimed at hardcore fans.
Quote from: Jack Shaftoe on May 10, 2022, 09:40:51 AMI'm a bit bored of the Doctor being the last of his race and all that, it's (I suppose literally) a dead end.
Honestly, I've always felt like this. I know Gallifrey is usually crap, but I think The Last of the Time Lords is also a bit crap. I like the Doctor just being a wanderer, someone who helps because they have a moral compass and passion for fairness, not a superhero with a tragic past. The only reason I can think of for the Master to destroy Gallifrey and the Time Lords is so the Doctor can't just go to them and go "er, guys, is this Timeless Child stuff actually true, or is he having me on?"
I have no idea if Chibnall will wrap the whole thing up - I'm sure he'll try to in some way - but hopefully there'll be at least something in there that will act as, or allow for, a reset button. Ultimately it won't matter too much, as long as RTD's stuff is good then it'll be fun to watch, but having the whole Timeless Child mythology stuff hanging over the show just leaves a bad taste that it'd be really nice to get rid of.

Replies From View


purlieu

QuoteBut Coughlan would clearly make a popular choice as a companion, with several Whovians voicing their approval at the suggestion on social media.
Several people would like her to be companion! Cor.

60 years of almost exclusively casting relative unknowns as companions but, sure, it'll be the big star of that thing everyone likes. Yup, definitely.

Psybro

#1258
I was happy with the Time Lords being destroyed due to the Doctor's actions, the redemption arc was ok, and Moffat left it that they're a bunch of pricks anyway so let's not go there again. All those things happened for overarching narrative reasons, rather than what we have now.  I think the Deadly Assassin and the books have done anything interesting with them that could ever happen, plus some bits from RTD and Moffat that were more interesting for what they left to the imagination.

If I'm RTD I'm just going to ignore it.

Disinform

Quote from: Huxleys Babkins on May 10, 2022, 01:48:23 PM60 years of almost exclusively casting relative unknowns as companions but, sure, it'll be the big star of that thing everyone likes. Yup, definitely.

RTDs choices have been Billy Piper, Catherine Tate and Kylie Minogue though - so he's got form.