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March 28, 2024, 10:09:40 PM

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RTD back for Doctor Who

Started by Jack Shaftoe, September 24, 2021, 04:17:47 PM

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Replies From View

The way Moffat left it was great.  There was some ambiguity around where Gallifrey and the Time Lords now were - The Day of the Doctor had sealed them off somewhere vague, and Heaven Sent had shown the Doctor needing to endure an endless horrible process to access it. 

By the end of Moffat's time there was no sense that the Time Lords were now just "around" in any bland sense, like they were in the Classic Era.  He had created the best of both worlds, because the Time Lords weren't on the verge of continually appearing - they were essentially gone, locked away yet available for any storyline that contrived a need for them existing, whereupon they could be put back in their box.  And, crucially, locked away in a manner that wouldn't require the Doctor to continue mourning and grieving them.


Chibnall's response:  "this is too hard for me, best just kill them all off unambiguously since I don't like them.  Should the Doctor now revert to mourning and grieving them?  Too difficult for me, I'll leave it to my successor to gratefully receive my brilliant positioning of the playing pieces, just like I thoroughly made use of where Moffat left Gallifrey, the Master and everything else."

pigamus

Quote from: Disinform on May 10, 2022, 02:53:22 PMRTDs choices have been Billy Piper, Catherine Tate and Kylie Minogue though - so he's got form.

Jenna Coleman had been in Emmerdale, Bonnie Langford was Bonnie Langford... oh and Bradley Walsh...

Replies From View

Quote from: pigamus on May 10, 2022, 03:06:50 PMJenna Coleman had been in Emmerdale, Bonnie Langford was Bonnie Langford... oh and Bradley Walsh...

Bradley Walsh and a Liverpudlian one of the same man.

McDead

And who can forget Mark Strickson and his key role as young Ebenezer in George C Scott's "A Christmas Carol"

Mister Six

Quote from: Disinform on May 10, 2022, 02:53:22 PMRTDs choices have been Billy Piper, Catherine Tate and Kylie Minogue though - so he's got form.

And he wanted to get JK Rowling at one point. Thank Christ that didn't work out, although it would have meant more material for the Glinner threads when RTD spoke out against transphobia at those awards last year.

Quote from: purlieu on May 10, 2022, 11:26:15 AMis it series 9 that starts with Missy doing a flashback story in which people dressed as every past Doctor are glimpsed briefly or something?

That sounds like the climax of series 7, with Clara glimpsing The Doctor's past, including extra dressed like McCoy etc dashing by her.

I think series 9's teaser climaxed with a kid on a minefield saying "I'm Davros," which confused the hell out of the non-hardcore group I was watching it with...

Quote from: Replies From View on May 10, 2022, 07:11:19 AMI don't wish to be unkind to her but being an incarnation of the Doctor surely requires a greater acting range than we saw on screen.

Well if we're talking range, the characters of Ruth and Ruth-Doctor were markedly different. But no, her like deliveries weren't flat - they were delivered with a cocky but steely attitude. That Doctor didn't get much to do, but she had plenty of presence, especially compared with Jodie's usual fretful delivery.

pigamus

Quote from: McDead on May 10, 2022, 03:13:06 PMAnd who can forget Mark Strickson and his key role as young Ebenezer in George C Scott's "A Christmas Carol"

Sarah Sutton had been the lead in The Moon Stallion, dunno if that was a thing at the time

Mister Six

Quote from: pigamus on May 10, 2022, 03:06:50 PMJenna Coleman had been in Emmerdale, Bonnie Langford was Bonnie Langford... oh and Bradley Walsh...

Since we're including the one-offs, Michelle Ryan was well known for EastEnders and Merlin, and had been the star of NBC's Bionic Woman the year before they shot the episode.

Lindsay Duncan had won Tony and Olivier awards, had BAFTA noms and was known for GBH (the show, not the brutal crime) and Rome before she appeared in Waters of Mars.

Bernard Cribbins, of course...

And I'm sure there's a bit in The Writer's Tale where RTD is trying to get Judi Dench on board.

Still, I can't imagine whatserface wanting to give up the hugely popular international smash Bridgerton, which probably has another three seasons in it, to appear in Doctor Who for a year or two.

Disinform

Quote from: Mister Six on May 10, 2022, 03:23:02 PMAnd he wanted to get JK Rowling at one point. Thank Christ that didn't work out, although it would have meant more material for the Glinner threads when RTD spoke out against transphobia at those awards last year.

Could have been good.  Especially if there was a follow up episode with Jodie's Doctor, where Rowling tries to stop The Doctor from going to the toilet for an hour.

I think that might be better than a lot of what we had instead, to be fair.

pigamus

But JK Rowling isn't an actor, it seems a bit odd

McDead

This JK stuff is a salutary reminder that not all of RTD's instincts are sound

Replies From View

Quote from: Mister Six on May 10, 2022, 03:23:02 PMThat sounds like the climax of series 7, with Clara glimpsing The Doctor's past, including extra dressed like McCoy etc dashing by her.

Correct, and it was justifiable for being part of the 50th anniversary set-up.  It seemed to be a way of keeping somewhat happy those people who wanted the actual 50th special to be The Eleven Doctors.

Replies From View

Quote from: McDead on May 10, 2022, 03:49:06 PMThis JK stuff is a salutary reminder that not all of RTD's instincts are sound

We call RTD the-Louis-Theroux-of-interviewing-Jimmy-Savile of being fond of JK Rowling.

Quote from: McDead on May 10, 2022, 03:49:06 PMThis JK stuff is a salutary reminder that not all of RTD's instincts are sound

So he's to blame for not having the ability to see her becoming a monstrous transphobe seventeen years in the future? Do you think he would've approached her if she was giving off the slightest hint of that at the time?

Remember that for years she gave off the impression of being at least soft left, and it's only the last couple of years the mask has really slipped, necessitating a lot of reassessments of her past work and what it actually says about her personal politics. There's no way anyone in 2005 could've predicted beloved children's author Joanne Rowling would turn out to be such a vile hatemonger.

BritishHobo

True, but the idea itself was pretty shonky. It would be interesting to see how much he would have given her to do. I always assumed it would have been a cameo at the end, with David Tennant gushing and telling her what an amazing woman she is. Even before all the transphobia it seemed like a bad idea.

Mister Six

Quote from: Ron Maels Moustache on May 10, 2022, 06:06:04 PMSo he's to blame for not having the ability to see her becoming a monstrous transphobe seventeen years in the future? Do you think he would've approached her if she was giving off the slightest hint of that at the time?

It's more that getting children's author JK Rowling to play herself as a companion in an episode of Doctor Who is an absolutely fucking wank idea. And I say that as someone who has more time for the Harry Potter books (if not their author) than most on CaB.

Midas

Some did notice her nastiness tbf. Urusla Le Guin famously called her work "ethically rather mean-spirited" in 2004. But meh, the episode didn't happen so it's neither here nor there.

Midas

I think the idea for the Rowling storyline evolved into "The Shakespeare Code".

Written by... never mind...

Mister Six

Quote from: Midas on May 10, 2022, 06:24:21 PMI think the idea for the Rowling storyline evolved into "The Shakespeare Code".

Written by... never mind...

Holy shit, I never made that connection!

But no, the JKR-as-companion thing came (per The Writer's Tale) during the development of season four or the Tennant specials, I think for the Christmas slot that was eventually filled by Voyage of the Damned.

Replies From View

Quote from: BritishHobo on May 10, 2022, 06:12:18 PMTrue, but the idea itself was pretty shonky. It would be interesting to see how much he would have given her to do. I always assumed it would have been a cameo at the end, with David Tennant gushing and telling her what an amazing woman she is. Even before all the transphobia it seemed like a bad idea.

I dunno - if it had been Michael Rosen I'd have been all for that.

McDead

Quote from: Ron Maels Moustache on May 10, 2022, 06:06:04 PMSo he's to blame for not having the ability to see her becoming a monstrous transphobe seventeen years in the future? Do you think he would've approached her if she was giving off the slightest hint of that at the time?

Remember that for years she gave off the impression of being at least soft left, and it's only the last couple of years the mask has really slipped, necessitating a lot of reassessments of her past work and what it actually says about her personal politics. There's no way anyone in 2005 could've predicted beloved children's author Joanne Rowling would turn out to be such a vile hatemonger.

No, as others have said (or at least implied), it's an inherently tacky and inane idea. And I've never liked the show's courting of JK Rowling/the Harry Potter crowd, much as I understand it from a commercial point of view.

Malcy

Quote from: McDead on May 10, 2022, 06:54:55 PMNo, as others have said (or at least implied), it's an inherently tacky and inane idea. And I've never liked the show's courting of JK Rowling/the Harry Potter crowd, much as I understand it from a commercial point of view.

When i first read the whole story behind it in The Writer's Tale i was very glad it didn't happen. Have never like JK Rowling from day one and Harry Potter is right up there as one of those annoying franchises that everyone is always banging on about like Marvel.

Like you say it would have been a huge thing no doubt in terms of attention but yeah fuck off. Xmas specials are for doing something a bit different and a bit grander on scale, not praising another franchise and/or it's creator. Regardless of their arseholeness.

Attila

Quote from: McDead on May 10, 2022, 03:13:06 PMAnd who can forget Mark Strickson and his key role as young Ebenezer in George C Scott's "A Christmas Carol"

Always a fave rewatch, as Strickson was clearly suffering from a whacking head full of cold when his scenes were shot. Mark Strickson as Ringo Starr as Young Ebenezer.

Replies From View

When it comes to things like the JK Rowling adoration, what grated at the time was putting any contemporary alrightish-for-her-demographic writer on the same kind of creative and influential level as Dickens and Shakespeare from the Doctor's perspective, with all of his vast experience of time and space.

But RTD loved indulging that kind of pop-reference impulse, and had no qualms having Big Brother and The Weakest still existing in the future.  That kind of thing annoyed me at the time.

Malcy

The Doctors Daughter was 14 years ago today. 14 years! Who and songs are the top two things that make me go "how long"!

As good as it is to have RTD back does anyone else who lived his era think his new one will give that same sense of excitement and anticipation? As much as I enjoyed an episode I was always excited for the next time trailer.

Past 10 years or so the next time would be my favourite part. I have faith in RTD fully but I've been let down by so many people hints I live in recent years that it's made me really wary.

I suppose I'll keep treating it the way I do Star Trek these days if I don't enjoy it. It's there, if I don't like it there's always the next one, and just look for the positives.

That's what I've done with Who for a long time. This thread just dwells on the negatives over and over again until each page reads exactly like the last. Well the current run thread anyway.

It's a boring read of what has been mostly a boring show but got old quick.

I dunno where I'm even going with this.

McDead

Quote from: Replies From View on May 10, 2022, 07:36:18 PMWhen it comes to things like the JK Rowling adoration, what grated at the time was putting any contemporary alrightish-for-her-demographic writer on the same kind of creative and influential level as Dickens and Shakespeare from the Doctor's perspective, with all of his vast experience of time and space.

But RTD loved indulging that kind of pop-reference impulse, and had no qualms having Big Brother and The Weakest still existing in the future.  That kind of thing annoyed me at the time.

Right, it's like Star Trek Discovery making vogueish references to - boak - Elon Musk. Not everyone shares the same cloying adoration of these dismal modern figures.

But RTD was very good at getting Who into the papers. Big Brother and The Weakest Link gets the show some column inches, so millions of normals will inadvertently tune in to see the Daleks deliver a nerdy in-joke about the Doctor being half human. It's brilliant, really.

Mister Six

Quote from: McDead on May 10, 2022, 08:06:19 PMRight, it's like Star Trek Discovery making vogueish references to - boak - Elon Musk. Not everyone shares the same cloying adoration of these dismal modern figures.

But RTD was very good at getting Who into the papers. Big Brother and The Weakest Link gets the show some column inches, so millions of normals will inadvertently tune in to see the Daleks deliver a nerdy in-joke about the Doctor being half human. It's brilliant, really.

The Weakest Link/Big Brother/Trinny & Susannah bits were fine with me. Brilliant, even: a ballsy and smart way to say to newcomers, "Yeah, Doctor Who is proper TV just like all these other shows you see on telly." Striding up to the big boys' table right when BB and TWL were at the height of their relevance (while still being established telly fixtures) and saying, "Yep, we belong with this lot. We're big, popular TV. What of it?"

Of course it pissed off people who want Doctor Who to be better than that, but it was all part of the plan - get the show established and popular, and then let the show get back to what it was before (more or less).

Besides, the trash telly network was supposed to be villainous, lulling the complacent masses into becoming bloodthirsty, easily amused dickheads. The Rowling bit was less excusable to me because it's The Doctor saying all this stuff, but it fits Ten's characterisation of being a bit of an annoying tit.

Quote from: McDead on May 10, 2022, 03:13:06 PMAnd who can forget Mark Strickson and his key role as young Ebenezer in George C Scott's "A Christmas Carol"

That was actually after he'd left Doctor Who though.

Replies From View

Quote from: Mister Six on May 10, 2022, 08:34:58 PMThe Weakest Link/Big Brother/Trinny & Susannah bits were fine with me. Brilliant, even: a ballsy and smart way to say to newcomers, "Yeah, Doctor Who is proper TV just like all these other shows you see on telly." Striding up to the big boys' table right when BB and TWL were at the height of their relevance (while still being established telly fixtures) and saying, "Yep, we belong with this lot. We're big, popular TV. What of it?"

For me it felt like Doctor Who was stooping down to meet those shows, not stepping up to them.  They felt ephemeral and irrelevant even at the time, while Doctor Who felt timeless.  Nothing to do with a snobby "my show is better than this" - more their characteristic nature as disposable, fast food television that was always meant to disappear quickly jarred against being dwelled upon by a show suggesting they would survive long into the future.

This was in series 1, though, where the show had yet to show enough different glimpses of the future to put those into perspective. 

Cloud

Haha JK as companion

*Regenerates into 13th*
JK: What the fuck?  Why are you pretending to be a woman?  You can't just become one like that, it takes being born that way and great hardship  *destroys Gallifrey in a rage*

Quote from: Replies From View on May 10, 2022, 07:11:19 AMRuth Doctor wasn't performed very well; I don't know what everyone is talking about.  Am I the only one who saw someone standing around reading the lines out really flatly?

I'm not an expert on TV production, but the impression I get is that direction was one of this era's big failings.  There were multiple directors throughout, so how they managed that I don't know (bad instructions from Chibnall?  Bad hiring choices?) but "just stand there reading these lines blankly while we do nothing to make the scene dynamic and exciting and ask nothing of your performance" seems like a bad director thing to me.

Replies From View

Yes, it's as if they rehearsed without an opportunity to interact with their environments or any props apart from the sonic screwdriver, or the script never required them to because it was all expository.