RTD back for Doctor Who

[JamesTC]

JK Rowling/the Harry Potter crowd

Graham Linehan considers rewrite.

[Mister Six]

For me it felt like Doctor Who was stooping down to meet those shows, not stepping up to them.  They felt ephemeral and irrelevant even at the time, while Doctor Who felt timeless.  Nothing to do with a snobby "my show is better than this" - more their characteristic nature as disposable, fast food television that was always meant to disappear quickly jarred against being dwelled upon by a show suggesting they would survive long into the future.

This was in series 1, though, where the show had yet to show enough different glimpses of the future to put those into perspective. 

That's entirely understandable, because you're approaching it (as I did at the time) as a long-time fan. But in 2005, Who really was stepping up to those shows. Nobody under about 23 had even seen the show when it first aired (or remembered it if they did, excepting the few among their cohort who became lifelong fans) and it existed in the popular consciousness as a sad punchline - the cheap, tacky, cancelled, rubbish UK sci-fi embarrassment. Ricky Gervais was still doing that joke during the Tennant years in Extras, the hack cunt!

So yeah, when Davies was writing this episode, Doctor Who was nothing compared to Big Brother - literally, in the eyes of the UK's children, who had no idea what it was. In that context, associating with those shows boosted, not diminished, its brand with the target audience. Which is really all that matters. And Davies knew if it worked it would be a passing thing, that Who would carry itself in the long run. By season four, the show is introducing kids to Agatha Christie...

I'm not an expert on TV production, but the impression I get is that direction was one of this era's big failings.  There were multiple directors throughout, so how they managed that I don't know (bad instructions from Chibnall?  Bad hiring choices?) but "just stand there reading these lines blankly while we do nothing to make the scene dynamic and exciting and ask nothing of your performance" seems like a bad director thing to me.

I think that's a writing thing too, though. If you have characters that have no character, and dialogue that's nothing but exposition, and people saying "I feel angry because the Dalek killed my dog!", and scenes that are just people standing around talking, and plots that are meandering and rote - I mean, what the fuck can you do with that?

There's a bit in The Witchfinders in which the zombie things just stand around in the background with their arms lolling while the protagonists chatter at length, because if the zombies did what they would do in that moment - which is march up while the goodies are gabbing and pull their heads off - the scene would be over.

Yeah, that can be (and ought to have been) obscured in the camera angles and editing, but the script still demands the action stop while people stand around and have a good old natter.

Likewise the bit in Arachnids in which Ryan tells Graham about his dad's letter while they're trying to capture a giant, deadly spider - the scene requires the characters to be relaxed enough to chat about personal issues while placing them in mortal danger!

Compare that to Davies and Moffat, who know enough to let the characters lock themselves in a room away from the action when this stuff is required - or at least boil exposition down to a few brief remarks and a joke instead of endless flat dialogue devoid of any spark.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that the direction is for the most part determined by the scripts, especially on a lowish budget telly show where you don't have the time or money to reshoot stuff or rewrite the pages.

Davies knew that - there's a whole bit in The Writer's Tale how he wanted to have a character walk in on a surprise birthday party, but at the scripting stage he realised how much you'd have to show of a dark room and whispering people simply because the character had to park her car, walk up to her flat, put the key in the lock etc before anyone could shout "Surprise!"

Of course, Chibnall has no sense of pacing or action or character or dynamic visuals or anything you would want from a showrunner, and so his episodes and those rewritten by him are hobbled before they even get in front of a camera.

[Psybro]

As a long-time fan, I grew fonder of RTD as time went on, whilst Moffat had diminishing returns after his first full series.  The ratings and the show's global popularity under both showrunners broadly mirrored that.  That speaks to me of how incredible RTD was in the role, no matter his idiosyncrasies (his tawdry quirks if you will).

RTD could make most of the series about emoji conquering the Earth and if it results in one episode with the quality of Midnight then he'll have blasted Chibnall out of the sky.

To be fair to Moffat, if his final series was his 'break emergency glass' stuff then it shows he still had some quality held back, whereas RTD was pretty well spent.

[Cloud]

There's a bit in The Witchfinders in which the zombie things just stand around in the background with their arms lolling while the protagonists chatter at length, because if they did what they would do - which is march up while the goodies are gabbing and pull their heads off - the scene would be over.

This is something that I guess I'm "kind of used to" from anime where the "enemy just sits there while the good guys chat / explain at length the attack move they just made" thing is a longstanding trope.  It used to bug the hell out of me, and then I shrugged and forced some suspension of disbelief.  But yeah..

Fair point and if direction is an issue I'm only saying it's part of the issue not the whole one.  It seems to be a general team of incompetence all round

[Mister Six]

It doesn't bother me in anime, funnily enough, perhaps because the artificiality of the situation is so obvious anyway. But I hate it in live-action telly, and even in more "realistic" animation (it happens a lot in the cutscenes of the Yakuza games, and gets on my tits there too).

As a long-time fan, I grew fonder of RTD as time went on, whilst Moffat had diminishing returns after his first full series.  The ratings and the show's global popularity under both showrunners broadly mirrored that. 

Moffat had to contend with split-season/skipped year budget bullshit from the BBC, though, as well as losing his initial core cast before he was done with them. Both of those things, but especially the former, are likely to take their toll.

Mind you, I do think that Moffat's later seasons (esp. 8 and 9) got too dark and gloomy for regular audiences, and losing the sexy young lead won't have helped. I'm grateful to him for taking those risks and pushing the boundaries of modern Who, though.

[jamiefairlie]

Does Dr Who have to be a hugely popular ratings champion to exist? Can it not be downscaled in terms of budget but upscaled in terms of quality writing? It's like saying all bands need to be chasing commercial success as their primary goal of creating their art.

[Mister Six]

Doctor Who has been popular entertainment with shoddy writing since 1963, why change that now?

[Replies From View]

Doctor Who has always had cardboard poking out

[Kelvin]

The thing is, modern who has never been consistently great, or even good. Most series under RTD and Moffat had a handful of standouts, a handful of middling/good episodes, and a couple of absolute duds. It was just that the standouts were so good you always had to come back for the next series.

Chibnall managed maybe 1 good episode per series, and then two stinking handfuls of absolute dreck that made even the weakest episodes of an RTD or Moffat series look entertaining and witty. 

Frankly I don't care if we get a bunch of crap, pop culture episodes under RTD, so long as we're also back to getting the 4-5 episodes that made the show worth watching, as well.

[Replies From View]

I agree with that, but it's a bit cheeky to describe Chibnall's best episodes as "good".

[Alberon]

"Acceptable"?

[thr0b]

I hope that RTD has found a new Moffatt. Someone he can rely on two do a couple of amazing episodes per series, with no hand-holding required.

It's probably too much to hope that person will be Moffatt.

[Kelvin]

I agree with that, but it's a bit cheeky to describe Chibnall's best episodes as "good".

I don't think Chibnall's done a single solo episode as showrunner that reaches that standard, but I'd argue Rosa and The Frankenstein Villa one, plus maybe one or two more by other writers could be described as good. 

[bobloblaw]

Russell was enthusing about Kayleigh Llewellyn recently, who just won the Bafta for her brilliant BBC3 series In My Skin - she does serious and funny and can do heavy themes with a light touch and her writing is emotionally-driven and accessible. If she harbours any Who ambitions, she'd be great.

I wonder if he'll go down the new writers route of Chibnall, or the old hands path of Moffat. Hopefully a bit of both.

[purlieu]

That sounds like the climax of series 7, with Clara glimpsing The Doctor's past, including extra dressed like McCoy etc dashing by her.

Ah, no, I think I'm thinking of this but from The Witch's Familiar:

The Fourth and First Doctors make brief appearances during Missy's exposition of her account of the Doctor's fight with 50 android assassins.

[Replies From View]

Moffat has seen Gatwa in action.

https://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/moffat-has-seen-ncuti-gatwa-in-action-as-the-doctor-he-is-magnificent-97246.htm

At first I thought that meant filming had started, or Moffat had attended a read-through or rehearsals, but he means he has seen Gatwa's audition tape.

[Replies From View]

Russell was enthusing about Kayleigh Llewellyn recently, who just won the Bafta for her brilliant BBC3 series In My Skin - she does serious and funny and can do heavy themes with a light touch and her writing is emotionally-driven and accessible. If she harbours any Who ambitions, she'd be great.

I wonder if he'll go down the new writers route of Chibnall, or the old hands path of Moffat. Hopefully a bit of both.

I don't really want to call using new writers a "Chibnall" thing.  JNT often tried to give new writers a shot at Doctor Who so we could call it that instead.

Personally I think it needs to be new writers from now on.  Fans of 1970s and 80s Who have had their turn and defined an era, but it's time to move on to fresher pastures.

[Malcy]

Russell was enthusing about Kayleigh Llewellyn recently, who just won the Bafta for her brilliant BBC3 series In My Skin - she does serious and funny and can do heavy themes with a light touch and her writing is emotionally-driven and accessible. If she harbours any Who ambitions, she'd be great.

I wonder if he'll go down the new writers route of Chibnall, or the old hands path of Moffat. Hopefully a bit of both.

In My Skin is excellent and I hope she's up for writing an episode.

[Replies From View]

"Acceptable"?

Hmm.  It depends if placeholders for what could have been alright - with more work and effort - should be deemed "acceptable".

I'd call them glimmers of potential towards acceptability that fall short.

[Ron Maels Moustache]

I'm not an expert on TV production, but the impression I get is that direction was one of this era's big failings.  There were multiple directors throughout, so how they managed that I don't know (bad instructions from Chibnall?  Bad hiring choices?) but "just stand there reading these lines blankly while we do nothing to make the scene dynamic and exciting and ask nothing of your performance" seems like a bad director thing to me.

One of the tricks of writing low-budget TV (and this is something that goes back to the days when drama on TV was basically just filmed theatre) is to convince the audience that there's a larger world going on outside the frame of the camera, even if you've only got a small set to shoot in and a handful of speaking actors.

This is something they managed back in the Hartnell era when the show barely had any resources available to it, but I feel like in the Chibnall era the show failed even on this basic level. The worlds presented to us just no longer feel like believable places, they're just empty spaces for the actors to walk around in while they recite exposition. Arachnids In The UK is a typical example, it takes place in a bustling modern city but the Sheffield presented on screen feels utterly desolate and devoid of life, and not for any valid story reason either. The post-bomb Sheffield of Threads had more life in it. Where is everyone? Why does it all feel so dead?

I've just been through it scene by scene to check it wasn't just my negative feelings about the whole Chibnall era colouring my memory of it, and as far as I've been able to tell there's one, just one, short moment 15 minutes in that features anyone other than the speaking characters - the main cast walk across a bridge and you see a couple of people out of focus in the background and someone else walks past. That's it, in the whole episode. Apart from that it's a ghost town.

[purlieu]

Fans of 1970s and 80s Who have had their turn and defined an era, but it's time to move on to fresher pastures.

It would be interesting to see a version of the show written largely by people who got into it through RTD's era. Not necessarily good - I'm really not the biggest fan of series 1-4 - but I'd be curious to see how writers, for whom that was 'their' Who, would write it.

[Replies From View]

It would be interesting to see a version of the show written largely by people who got into it through RTD's era. Not necessarily good - I'm really not the biggest fan of series 1-4 - but I'd be curious to see how writers, for whom that was 'their' Who, would write it.

That's only a matter of time - we are talking about people who are Thomas' age.  14 years old now, but 30 (and hopefully bald as fuck) in about five months.

Let's not overlook the potential of brilliant writers who don't class themselves as fans.  It can be the showrunner's job to take any given script and make sure it fits fully - every individual writer doesn't need geeky awareness about the history of the show.

[Thomas]

I even have a few friends now with screenwriting degrees and agents, on the verge of professional gigs. If they get to write Doctor Who I will stop watching out of jealousy. I'd rather a hundred more years of Chibnall than that, anything but the torture of successful friends.

[Replies From View]

Look at how young Thomas is, with his swathe of friends who are beginning their careers and not even dying yet.

[Replies From View]

Little bit about the audition process:

https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/sci-fi/doctor-who-ncuti-gatwa-audition-newsupdate/

[BritishHobo]

I'd love to see what the script is. I'm guessing it's designed to showcase all the different sides of the Doctor and take you silliness through to fury, with everything inbetween. I still think Matt Smith is the absolute master of those shifts, in all of New Who. The fun giving way to absolute seriousness.

[Norton Canes]

"Days like crazy paving..."

[McDead]

I'm so f*cking excited. This is going to be great.

[Norton Canes]

The thing is, modern who has never been consistently great, or even good. Most series under RTD and Moffat had a handful of standouts, a handful of middling/good episodes, and a couple of absolute duds. It was just that the standouts were so good you always had to come back for the next series.

Chibnall managed maybe 1 good episode per series, and then two stinking handfuls of absolute dreck that made even the weakest episodes of an RTD or Moffat series look entertaining and witty. 

Frankly I don't care if we get a bunch of crap, pop culture episodes under RTD, so long as we're also back to getting the 4-5 episodes that made the show worth watching, as well

Absolutely agree with all of this. I guess the one crucial difference with RTD's writing style is that this time the criteria for the show's success isn't going to be getting 10m viewers and beating And and Dec, it's going to be building a coherent ongoing narrative and establishing the show as a amajority of people are going to watch online.

[Mister Six]

Ah, no, I think I'm thinking of this but from The Witch's Familiar:

Ah! I'd completely forgotten about that.