First they came for the right wing bloggers...

[biggytitbo]

Exactly, the political establishment and msm will manufacture a reality out of these events that best suits the narrative they're selling, as will Trump supporters and the alternative media. You always need to be aware of the agendas people are pushing, especially when they're opaque and undisclosed and we have to rely on the media to give us even the most basic version of the facts.

[MuteBanana]

Yes, because it's the kind of site that presents pictures of people in Muslim garb and starts convincing people that Birmingham has been invaded.
Everybody believes that they see the things in the video. It's the narrative being extracted from it that is subjective and questionable. You must understand that one piece of content can generate conflicting stories.

Its a compilation of real events happening. Stop being a twed and just watch it.

[Cuellar]

I am delighted Trump supporters are being attacked.

[canadagoose]

So now you're only interested in people carrying out violence who are anti fascist.

Well, yes, that was my question - I was asking about Antifa carrying out violence!

Anyone who commits violence against a Trump supporter who isn't anti fascist is okay? This is a question, I'm not putting words into your mouth.

Well, no, but who are they answerable to?

Another question. Your concern is that anti fascists are being painted as violent by me and you are seeking proof of this?

I'm trying to get to the bottom of your claim here:

I shouldn't pin it all on Antifa but they certainly lead the way and encourage others to carry out violence and harassment.

The video doesn't prove that claim.

0.33s - Man walking down street is hit from behind. The object was strong enough to cut his head open.
0.55s - Man is punched twice in the face/head
1.00 - Man is kind of sucker punched
1.05 - Man wearing jacket with USA is punched in the back of the head.
1.17 - Man in black shirt is walking down road and punched from behind in the face/head
1.27 - Women punches out at someone off screen in a crowd. She is then pepper sprayed.(I think)
1.28 - A woman wearing a Trump basketball top(I think) is pelted with eggs in front of a building by a large crowd.
1.40 - Another man is sucker punched from behind as he walks down the street
1.50 - A large man is jumped upon and forced to the ground by a man with a bandana over his face.
2.10 - A woman tells a news crew how anti Trump supporters sprayed them with pepper spray, including her two young daughters.
2.25 - A man is punched twice in the face and remains calm despite the attack
3.00 - A man, possibly Indian, wearing a MAGA hat is approached by someone filming with a camera. His hat is removed and thrown away. He is then called a "fucking racist prick". - okay thats not violence but just throwing that in there to show these people aren't picky about who they attack.
3.12 - A journalist filming a group of people down a street explains how they're following a guy wearing a Trump shirt. He says they punched him in the back of the head. This is possibly one of the other incidents of someone being punched in the back of the head but just from a different perspective. But he does follow up with "And now they're rushing him and now they're knocking him to the ground.
Yeah but hardly violence.

I didn't claim those incidents weren't violence! I'm saying there's no way of linking them to antifascist action...

[canadagoose]

I am delighted Trump supporters are being attacked.

If a Trump supporter went up to someone who appeared to be of Latin origin, waved a flag in their face and went "Haha, you're going to be deported! GO TRUMP!!" in their face, I'll admit I'd find it hard to muster up sympathy for the Trumper if they happened to be punched. I'm not advocating violence, but come on, what would you expect?

[biggytitbo]

I am delighted Trump supporters are being attacked.

Shame we can't attack all 70m of them with garden implements until they vote how we want them to, but Its not allowed in the constitution :(

[Cuellar]

Yeah that'd be good.

[Twed]

Its a compilation of real events happening. Stop being a twed and just watch it.

I did.

Highlights are no way to form an honest narrative.

[MuteBanana]

Well, yes, that was my question - I was asking about Antifa carrying out violence!
Well, no, but who are they answerable to?
I'm trying to get to the bottom of your claim here:
The video doesn't prove that claim.
I didn't claim those incidents weren't violence! I'm saying there's no way of linking them to antifascist action...

Alright, fair enough. No proof. How can I prove someone's mindset is directly influenced by Antifa? I can't. It could just as easily be influenced by Trump himself.

[canadagoose]

Shame we can't attack all 70m of them with garden implements until they vote how we want them to, but Its not allowed in the constitution :(

It'd be interesting if all 70 million of them happened to stand on a conveniently-placed rake at some point on Thursday afternoon. Not that I would encourage such disgusting horticultural terrorism against fine, upstanding citizens of the free world, no sir.

[canadagoose]

Alright, fair enough. No proof. How can I prove someone's mindset is directly influenced by Antifa? I can't.

So if there's no proof, why would you believe that "Antifa [...] certainly lead the way and encourage others to carry out violence and harassment"? Where did you get the idea?

[MuteBanana]

I did.

Highlights are no way to form an honest narrative.

I'm guessing the honest narrative posted by someone was saying that Trump supporters are heading out to the streets to attack minorities. I bet you don't question that.

So how many incidents of Trump supporters being attacked does it take for that to be an honest narrative? Because that seems to be the case here..

[manticore]

I am delighted Trump supporters are being attacked.

Well then you will only strengthen them in their beliefs that the left is inherently authoritarian, oppressive and violent.

There is a streak of authoritarianism on the left and always has been, and some of the behaviour of 'anti-fascists' is part of that tradition. They're fighting the far-right on their own ground and that way they will lose. Antifa have undermined peaceful protests by their behaviour, and allowed the sensationalist media to focus on the violent action rather than the reasons for the behind it.

I agree with Noam Chomsky:

When confrontation shifts to the arena of violence, it's the toughest and most brutal who win – and we know who that is. That's quite apart from the opportunity costs – the loss of the opportunity for education, organising, and serious and constructive activism.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/noam-chomsky-antifa-major-gift-right-wing-anti-fascist-alt-left-a7906406.html

[Twed]

I'm guessing the honest narrative posted by someone was saying that Trump supporters are heading out to the streets to attack minorities. I bet you don't question that.

So how many incidents of Trump supporters being attacked does it take for that to be an honest narrative? Because that seems to be the case here..

I was going to explain how I think media narrative works on that one, and then I realised that you're assuming what my position is by default because you're feeling antagonised. So if you could get over that we can talk.

I believe that Antifa occasionally punch people in the face. It's funny. I don't care, because they're doing it on principled grounds and it's not systematic or rooted in something ugly like white power.

I know that Trump supporters are violently empowered right now from first-class information, sadly. I've seen it, I've seen it reported, I've seen direct response (face punching) to it.

[MuteBanana]

Let's forget Antifa for just a second and accept Trump supporters are being intimidated, harassed and assaulted.

Nothing else matters. Trying to switch blame, switch influence, switch cause. None of it matters.

And you can suggest hate crimes are also happening. But I will make a very good point, which none of you will agree with but I'll make it anyway.

1. Take a 1000 racist Trump fans and ask them if they had their beliefs before 2016.

2. Take a 1000 Trump fans and ask them if before 2016 they ever felt frightened of expressing their political views.

More people in number 1 would say yes than people in number 2.

[Cuellar]

Ahh but if you ask 1000 immigrants if they'd experienced racism before 2016 and if it had got worse since 2016, I reckon they'd all say yes to the first AND the second.

[Paul Calf]

Yeah, why are these replies focusing on AntiFa?

What about the violence and hate speech Antifa direct towards people? Oh thats okay because they're "anti facist".

Oh.

[biggytitbo]

Violence is allowing yourself to be totally coopted by the culture war and divide and rule narrative they use to manipulate us. If you find yourself punching down or sideways, rather than up, you are wasting your time and actively contributing to the system that oppresses you.

[MuteBanana]

Ahh but if you ask 1000 immigrants if they'd experienced racism before 2016 and if it had got worse since 2016, I reckon they'd all say yes to the first AND the second.

Yeah thats been said hasn't it. Which takes us down another route. Does Trump inspire the already racists to commit racism?

Because thats a pretty strong opinion to take. Nobody watches a Trump video and decides they're racist. Especially if they're then going to express this publicly. I'm sure there's a racist history to that person.

Ahh but Trump encourages it. Does he? Or does he just get blamed for it?

[MuteBanana]

Yeah, why are these replies focusing on AntiFa?

Oh.

Paul if I accept I made a mistake would it make you love me?

[chveik]

I agree with Noam Chomsky:

desolation

he's really out of his depth (well he has always been)

Eleanor Penny, who has written extensively on fascism and the far-right, told The Independent: "Chomsky treats the battle against fascism as a battle for moral purity than can be won when the left remain respectful, polite, and deferent."
She added: "But fascists have no interest in winning that battle. They don't care about respecting free speech or the right to a fair trial; they've openly declared their murderous intent towards people of colour (and other undesirables) and they'll pursue that goal by any means necessary. In this context, physical resistance is a duty, an act of self-defence, not an unsightly outpost of leftist moral decline."

I agree with her.

[Paul Calf]

Paul if I accept I made a mistake would it make you love me?

If the mistake was your frankly bizarre support for Trump, then yes, it might.

[Cuellar]

Ahh but Trump encourages it. Does he?

Yes

[Zetetic]

If you find yourself punching down or sideways, rather than up, you are wasting your time and actively contributing to the system that oppresses you.

Well.

[canadagoose]

I'll stop rabbiting on about opposition to fascism in a minute, but I rather liked Shaun's approach to it:

if your goal is limiting fascism as much as possible, all options should stay on the table. different approaches will work better for certain people. this is true of both the fascists and the people trying to stop them

there's a black dude in the states who befriends and de-radicalises KKK members, i believe. i've seen leftists argue over the efficacy of this, whether it's the most effective tactic for everyone, etc etc. i think this uncertainty is the wrong way to go about it, because it loses sight of the goal

do something to stop fascism, and do it with confidence, whether you're taking the carrot or the stick approach. the goal is to stop fascism, not to get the Stopping Fascism Any% speed-run. hesitate too much arguing over what the most effective tactic is, and it'll be too late

the confidence is important. fascism is a false confidence plastered over doubt and self-hatred. classic bully mentality. it crumbles on contact with firm resistance

[greenman]

There is a streak of authoritarianism on the left and always has been, and some of the behaviour of 'anti-fascists' is part of that tradition. They're fighting the far-right on their own ground and that way they will lose. Antifa have undermined peaceful protests by their behaviour, and allowed the sensationalist media to focus on the violent action rather than the reasons for the behind it.

Honestly though I think the kind of anger their feeding on isn't really coming from the left, its coming from a lot of mainstream media coverage that supported Hilary. So much of Trump mania as a whole has I think been a mad scramble to cover the failure of this established order for fear of a loss of influence to the actual left.

[MuteBanana]

Yes

Then so does Antifa.

[MuteBanana]

Its the break on Emmerdale and I'm chuckling to myself that a video I posted of Trump supporters being violently attacked has been mocked, derided and dismissed.

In 12 months time the same people will ask 'Show us evidence Trump supporters are in danger?'

[Monsieur Verdoux]

Then so does Antifa.

Antifa doesn't hold one of the most powerful political offices in the world, with an entire TV network roaring in support. The comparison isn't tenable. Trump's every utterance is covered in microscopic detail, day-in day-out. It is impossible for him not to have an influence. This is one of the reasons most sane people don't want the top job, you set the temperature. For better or worse, whether you like it or not.

[canadagoose]

Then so does Antifa.

I thought we'd just agreed there was no proof of that? Or are you on about Antifa encouraging something else?