Doctor Who - Series 12, Chibnall's Revenge

[Pseudopath]

So are there any episodes of Chinballs-era Who that are worth watching or am I best off waiting for a change in writing team? Bear in mind that I bailed out after Arachnids in the UK. Rosa was alright (if a bit heavy-handed).

Edit: What about that for a 100th page starter? Classy.

[Ambient Sheep]

Yes.  To be honest, most of S12 was pretty fair going, far better than S11, with the lamentable exception of the execrable S12E03 (Orphan 55) which should never be watched by anyone ever again.

If you want to follow the series arc, you'll have to watch episodes 1, 2, 5, 8, 9 & 10 anyway (while noting that 1 & 2 are the weakest of those, it gets better as it goes along), so you might as well chuck in 4, 6 & 7 to boot.  Just not 3.


EDIT: and from S11 after you bailed, episodes 6 (Demons of the Punjab) and 9 (It Takes You Away) are maybe worth a look, plus 8 (The Witchfinders) but ONLY if you really love historicals and/or Alan Cumming.  Avoid episodes 5 (The Tsuranga Conundrum) and 7 (Kerblam!) at all costs.

[Chairman Yang]

Christ, no. Only watch any more of Chibnall's Doctor Who if you care about 'missing out on Doctor Who', as a piece of television or time spent in your one human life it's not worth it.

[Replies From View]

Yeah I wouldn't bother.  One day this Timeless Child stuff might be referenced by a future showrunner so you may feel intrigued to know its origins.  Until then, skip it all.  At its very best all it does is pad out your life, and I'm watching it now only through some kind of masochistic completism.

[Alberon]

A possible way for a future showrunner to unpick this mess-

The Doctor encounters another pre-Hartnell Doctor. The story is unimportant but one thing needs to happen. The other Doctor has to die - totally and irrevocably.

Our Doctor notices they haven't vanished so (in a later episode) ventures deep into the past of Gallifrey and encounters Tectuen (soon to rename herself Rassilon) and Omega (maybe also under another name initially).

The Doctor finds the Timeless Child and while trying to mentally link to them inadvertently leaves a psychic image of herself. Not memories, but a blueprint to follow as previously they had been rather passive. The mystery of the Timeless Child remains, but they aren't the Doctor. You could even have our Doctor referred to as The Other as they refuse to give their name for obvious reasons.

The Matrix is later exited and the Master draws the wrong conclusion.

Anyway, that's now my headcanon and I can stop thinking about this awful finale.

[olliebean]

This bugged me too.  It was implied that Tecteun only ripped whatever DNA was necessary to do regeneration out of the founding child and injected it into the Shobogans.  She didn't just clone the whole genome.

In which case, why does The Doctor always show up as "Time Lord" whenever she's scanned to determine her species?  Shouldn't she show up as another species entirely?

Presumably the regeneration code is the unique bit of the genome that identifies someone as a Time Lord. I would imagine the regeneration process itself makes the rest of the genome somewhat fluid.

[BritishHobo]

I think the best thing to do would be if the next showrunner has the Doctor mention the Timeless Child stuff to the Master, and yer Master just goes 'oh, what, that stuff about you being a kid the Time Lords stole regeneration powers from? Oh god, I just made that up for a laugh.'

[Norton Canes]

A possible way for a future showrunner to unpick this mess-

Never, ever, ever, ever, ever mention it again.

[Norton Canes]

In fact, include a brief scene where the Doctor is doing a bit of spring cleaning in the TARDIS, finds some artefact or other from the 'Timeless Child' story, and literally brushes it under the carpet.

[Jerzy Bondov]

Doctor has dialogue like: "Now, you're going to hear a lot of stories about me. All sorts of mad stuff. I'm half-human, I'm the immortal progenitor of my own race, I can lick my elbow. Don't believe a word of it. Apart from the elbow thing."

[holyzombiejesus]

The new showrunner should just start with Peter Capaldi jerking awake, covered in sweat and saying "what a horrible nightmare."

[Jerzy Bondov]

DOCTOR
This is even more unbelievable than a plot by Chris Chibnall! I met him once, nice chap, very good at backgammon. Sorry.

[Thomas]

COMPANION:
'But the Master said - '

DOCTOR:
'Rule one: the Master lies. You know, he once told me that I was - '

Slitheen interrupts.

It can be rescued.

[Replies From View]

The new showrunner should just start with Peter Capaldi jerking awake, covered in sweat and saying "what a horrible nightmare."

With his cock out

[Replies From View]

It can be rescued.

I don't even care about the possibility that Hartnell wasn't the first one.  With Moffat's 50th anniversary gesture I liked the idea that the incarnations we'd seen on screen were the ones that had taken on the name of "Doctor" due to an ethical/moral choice.  Between the eighth and ninth Doctors we had an unnumbered incarnation and I am quite happy for there to be an unknown number pre-Hartnell who hadn't yet decided to call themselves "Doctor".

What I dislike is putting the Doctor at the centre of the Time Lord origins, and the inevitable sense now of prequel stories / spin-off series that explore this lore, diminishing the mystique of Gallifrey and the Doctor in the process.

[Blinder Data]

100 pages - new thread required? Or should we just not bother?

[Norton Canes]

I've still got about 20 minutes of that last episode to watch (yeah, I know) but does it offer an explanation as to why the Doctor's regenerations suddenly went from race and gender diverse to 12 straight white guys?

[Alberon]

What's left to discuss? We're ten months from a new episode and six months till filming starts on series 13.

EDIT: Actually, maybe we should and call it Series 12B.

[Thomas]

I don't even care about the possibility that Hartnell wasn't the first one.  With Moffat's 50th anniversary gesture I liked the idea that the incarnations we'd seen on screen were the ones that had taken on the name of "Doctor" due to an ethical/moral choice.  Between the eighth and ninth Doctors we had an unnumbered incarnation and I am quite happy for there to be an unknown number pre-Hartnell who hadn't yet decided to call themselves "Doctor".

What I dislike is putting the Doctor at the centre of the Time Lord origins, and the inevitable sense now of prequel stories / spin-off series that explore this lore, diminishing the mystique of Gallifrey and the Doctor in the process.

Yes, that's the fundamental bit I disagree with.

If a writer has some panache and flare, by all means lovingly craft a 'Doctor 2.5' story. Or hint at something pre-Hartnell, with still an edge of ambiguity. But this 'foundation of the Time Lords' rubbish is 90s-novel-lore bollocks. The scruffy hermit is secretly the King. It's a lame reveal.

As you say (and as the Council of Geeks person notes in their review), we might brace ourselves for numerous spin-offs and side-series about a multitude of secret Doctors, which I instinctively do not trust to be good or careful.

I've still got about 20 minutes of that last episode to watch (yeah, I know) but does it offer an explanation as to why the Doctor's regenerations suddenly went from race and gender diverse to 12 straight white guys?

I do think there's an interesting conversation to be had about Chibnall's gestures towards diversity. It's riled up the usual reactionary quarters, who accuse Doctor Who of becoming ultra-politically correct et cetera, but moments like the Master being handed over to the Nazis betray that this apparent thoughtfulness is often only skin-deep.

[olliebean]

I think the best thing to do would be if the next showrunner has the Doctor mention the Timeless Child stuff to the Master, and yer Master just goes 'oh, what, that stuff about you being a kid the Time Lords stole regeneration powers from? Oh god, I just made that up for a laugh.'

Well, when the Master originally brought it up in Spyfall , he did say "the lie of the Timeless Child." Not "the lie about the Timeless Child," or "the lie to cover up the truth about the Timeless Child," but "the lie of the Timeless Child."

Or that could just be because Chibnall's a shit writer who doesn't understand how language works.

[Pseudopath]

Thanks for the advice all. Might give the S12 arc a go if I'm thoroughly bored one rainy afternoon, but this Morbius Doctors stuff sounds like an utter fucking mess (although I appreciate that's not entirely Chinball's fault).

[Norton Canes]

What I dislike is putting the Doctor at the centre of the Time Lord origins... diminishing the mystique of Gallifrey and the Doctor in the process

See this is where I started hating the Star Wars saga after The Empire Strikes Back. One of the great things about Star Wars (no, I'm not calling it 'A New Hope') is that it shows any old hick from the sticks, any nobody with a dream, can go out there and save the worlds from the forces of evil. Then The Empire Strikes Back comes along and says, well actually no, sorry, you can only do this if you're actually a royal prince. Oh, great. So only the entitled get to be the heroes after all.

And now we've got exactly the same situation with Doctor Who. Until now - and despite the various hero legends suggested in the McCoy era - the Doctor was still basically a grumpy shit who'd had enough of sitting around on his arse on Gallifrey and wanted to get out and make a difference. He was about as 'everyman' as a sci-fi hero gets. But not any more! Turns out he's actually the founder of pretty the most powerful civilisation in the entire universe. And that's clearly not while we love him. Imagine Ian and Barbara stumbling into the TARDIS in Totters Lane, "Who are you?" they ask, "Why, I am one of the most powerful and important beings in the universe!". Doesn't work does it.

[Danger Man]

What's left to discuss?

Who should replace Bradley Walsh?

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment/tv/bradley-walsh-quits-doctor-who-after-filming-this-years-christmas-special/ar-BB10EmuA?ocid=spartanntp

[olliebean]

The festive special has been filmed but the exit storyline for Bradley and Tosin's characters, Graham and step-grandson Ryan, remains a closely guarded secret.

Probably Graham will make some sort of noble sacrifice, while Ryan will wander off and be left behind because nobody noticed he was gone.

[Old Gold Tooth]

"Ryan... you were the Timeless Child all along."
"Yep. And now I'm off you can forget all about it BYE."

[Ambient Sheep]

100 pages - new thread required? Or should we just not bother?

I would have started it first thing this morning, only I didn't have the faintest idea what to call it.

Doctor Who - Series 12, The Aftermath?
Doctor Who - Post-S12 general 2020 chat?
Doctor Who - That Awkward Bit Between the Series and the Special, 2020 edition?

[holyzombiejesus]

Who should replace Bradley Walsh?

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment/tv/bradley-walsh-quits-doctor-who-after-filming-this-years-christmas-special/ar-BB10EmuA?ocid=spartanntp

Aren't these things normally spoilered or do we not give a shit any more?

[Bourgyste]

We have rebooted.
Rejoice.

[Thomas]

I would have started it first thing this morning, only I didn't have the faintest idea what to call it.

Doctor Who - Series 12, The Aftermath?
Doctor Who - Post-S12 general 2020 chat?
Doctor Who - That Awkward Bit Between the Series and the Special, 2020 edition?

Series 12B - The Timeless Chibnall

[Blinder Data]

Series 12B - The Timeless Chibnall

Done: https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,78429.0.html