Masters of the Air (Band of Biggles)

[Blue Jam]

Worth searching out the BBC radio adaptation [of Dan Leighton's Bomber] online.

Just checked and it's on Box of Broadcasts, so available if you're an academic. Not sure how I can share it sorry but be assured it has been saved for posterity.

Was thinking of starting a Box of Broadcasts thread actually. How many of us have access?

[Jim_MacLaine]

As others have said, one of BoB's strength was it's casting. So far I'm not sure 'Elvis' is going to cut it and 'tache' guy is just annoying.

Action wise it's going to be quite limiting isn't it. Bomber raids mainly.

I bet there's a downed behind enemy lines episode though.

[badaids]

There's a good one where the conceit is that the V Bomber Force are Insurance Men.

Just to be a pedant - the Buccaneer one with the Vangelis soundtrack is the RAF, not the Fleet Air Arm, and they're 'attacking' HMS Kent - a destroyer. The magic moment is when they locate the target, and the leader shouts "Red and Black, Bananas Bananas" for some reason.

1:54 in this clip

Yes it's 12 Sqn I think, I know one of the guys on the sqn at the time, a nav, though he's not in the film.  I'll ask him about that bit.

Whoever chose that Vangelis record (now my fave Vangelis in great part to this doc) was absolutely inspired, it totally suits the subject and times.

Please Sling me more docs like this if you know of them, I lap that shit up, though my fave subjects are submarines and pre ww2 capital ships.  Obsessed with that. Andrew Lambert is a God to me.

[Chollis]

Yeah really great stuff when they're up in the air but not particularly warming to either of the two leads. I find Austin Butler a bit too smouldering. Keoghan's accent is pretty ropy.

[Blue Jam]

Two episodes into BoB now. Gawd it's great. Can see myself bingeing this before returning to MotA.

Worth a separate BoB thread?

[Shaxberd]

Yes please Blue Jam, it's been a while since I last saw BoB but I watched it so many times when I was younger it's burned into my memory anyway, would love a chance to gab about it with others.

[Blue Jam]

Done.

[Elderly Sumo Prophecy]

Wasn't particularly impressed with the first episode but, stereotypical, moustache-twirling evil RAF men aside

I've noticed that these shows tend to have an anti British bias to them at points, for some reason. There was a bit in Band of Brothers where a British tank turned up during a battle and fucked everything up for our noble, plucky Americans.

I'm not particularly impressed with the two main characters. Moustache man appears to be a cunt, and Elvis is just... there.

[buzby]

The magic moment is when they locate the target, and the leader shouts "Red and Black, Bananas Bananas" for some reason.

Yes it's 12 Sqn I think, I know one of the guys on the sqn at the time, a nav, though he's not in the film.  I'll ask him about that bit.

Yes, it was 12 Sqn (you can tell by the fox's head insignia on the intake), who flew the Buccaneer S2B in the anti-shipping role using TV guided and anti-radar Martel missiles, WE.177 tactical nuclear bombs and conventional bombs. 12 Sqn had been a nuclear bomber squadron flying the Vulcan until 1967 when it was disbanded as it was selected to become one of the first suqadrons to operate the TSR2, and when that was cancelled, the F-111K, in the low level strike role.

When the UK's aquisition of the F-111 also fell through, the MoD ordered a variant of the S2 Buccaneer that Hawker Siddeley were supplying to the Fleet Air Arm modified to carry the Martel missile (the S2B), and eventually inherited the FAA's Buccaneer S2's when the carriers were scrapped in 1978. 12 Sqn was reformed in 1969 to take delivery of the first batch of Buccaneer S2Bs for the RAF.

Unfortuantely, the entire fleet was grounded for months in 1980 after 2 fatal crashes caused by loss of wings - one from 16 Sqn in Germany, caused by failure of the latch pin of the wing folding mechanism, and the second from 12 Sqn in Nevada while particpating the Red Flag exercise, where the main spar failed.

The spar failure was determined to be caused by a combination of defects in the forgings that formed the main spar in the fuselage to the wing attachment points, and an increase in fatigue due to the extended wingtips added to the S2 to improve range, which was exacerbated by the increased wing loading in the low level strike role that the RAF employed it in compared to the attack profile it was designed for with the FAA. During the grounding, the rest of the fleet were inspected for cracked spars - about 60 were repaired or had the cracked spars replaced, but the remainder of the 90 aircraft were written off as beyond economic repair (as the Tornado GR1 was soon to be replacing it in most missions anyway)

Much later on, when 12 and 208 Sqns and 237 OCU were the last remaining Buccaneer operators, a number of their arcraft were fitted with the earlier S1 wingtips to reduce fatigue at low level when they were sent off to act as laser designators for the Tornado GR1s in the first Gulf War.

Regarding the call "Red and Black, Bananas Bananas" made in the film, it is the navigator in the lead aircraft signalling to the navigators of the other 3 aircraft (the 4 aircraft form a pair of 2-ship attack formations, Red and Black) that he has the target on radar at the pre-briefed range (in this case 50 miles, but it was also used for 25 miles and 20 miles, depending on the attack profile) straight ahead and to start the run-in for the briefed attack profile (Bananas Bananas).

The standard Martel TV attack profile was to fire the missile and the aircraft would then do a 180 degree turn away from the target to evade. The aircraft used a datalink to communicate with the missile that was housed in a special pod under the port wing (this limited the aircraft to a load of 3 TV missiles - the anti-radar Martel had a passive radar seeker which was 'fire and forget' once a radar signal was aquired so 4 missiles could be carried). The datalink pod had it's antenna at the back end, so the launch aircraft could communicate with the missile as they flew 180 degrees away from each other.

At the end of the attack in the film when you see the navigator guiding the missile onto the target, in reality this was the aircraft itself acting as the 'missile' as prior to takeoff you see an aircraft fitted with the Martel TV Airborne Trainer (TVAT) pod under the starboard wing. This used the same body as the datalink pod but fitted the other way round and with the optical seeker head of a Martel TV missile facing forwards instead of the datalink antenna. This allowed navigators to practice guiding the missile to the target without firing one (or blowing HMS Kent up).

[badaids]

Amazing Buzby, I was aware of some of that but not all.

On the wing latch pins, there is a great 'dramatised'RAF flight safety video on You Tube based on this, but focused on a Phantom sqn.  It must have been quite a scandal that such a basic human factors flight safety point was missed at the time.  The video focuses on the need to enforce standards, stick by the book and on the leadership to instill this culture.

There's also a great doc on the last days of the Vulcan which is equally good. It's just a shame that you don't get to see more of the aircraft which is obviously a mind blowing machine. I saw XH558 once driving down a bid dual carriagway, it was following the road in the same direction as me.  All the cars were pulling up and people got out just to look at it, all along the road. When it had passed they just got back in the car and drove on.  Must have caused traffic chaos whenever it did that.

[gilbertharding]

Amazing Buzby, I was aware of some of that but not all.

On the wing latch pins, there is a great 'dramatised'RAF flight safety video on You Tube based on this, but focused on a Phantom sqn.  It must have been quite a scandal that such a basic human factors flight safety point was missed at the time.  The video focuses on the need to enforce standards, stick by the book and on the leadership to instill this culture.

The Phantom documentary you mention features Grange Hill's Mr Bronson as the belligerent Chief Technician, as well as some actual RAF people.

Re Bananas Bananas, I read a write up of the Buccaneer's role in guiding Tornado bombing raids in the first Gulf War, which was pretty interesting: https://www.globalaviationresource.com/reports/2011/gulfwar20thbuccaneer.php

[buzby]

Amazing Buzby, I was aware of some of that but not all.

On the wing latch pins, there is a great 'dramatised' RAF flight safety video on You Tube based on this, but focused on a Phantom sqn.  It must have been quite a scandal that such a basic human factors flight safety point was missed at the time.  The video focuses on the need to enforce standards, stick by the book and on the leadership to instill this culture.

The 'Oversight' film?

That film predated the Buccaneer incident by 3 years, and was based on the loss of Phantom FGR2 XV431 in 1974 on takeoff from RAF Bruggen when the outer wing panels folded in flight due to the locking pins not being inserted. This was exacerbated by the hydraulic folding mechanism and electrical locking pin actuation systems not being fitted to the RAF's Phantom FGR2s to save cost and weight (they were present on the FG1s built for the FAA - on the FGR2 the wings had to folded and unfolded manually, and the locking pins wound in using a socket and brace). This had also led to the removal of the wing locking pin detection switches and warning lights and the external part of the locking pins had been oversprayed with camouflage (the camera focuses on the pin at 18:20 in the film as the pilot is doing his walkaround - they had been repainted in red as one of the actions following the investigation, and again at 25:20 as it taxies back out after they oxygen pot is changed) so the crew had no way of knowing the wings had been left unlocked before flight.

The RAF's Phantom FGR2s had to have their outer wings replaced as well in the early 80s as they also had prematurely fatigued from use in the low level strike role ( ex-FAA FG1s had been used for carrier group defence at high level, so had not suffered from that issue).

The RAF's Buccaneer S2Bs retained the same hydraulic wing folding and locking system and locking pin detection system as the FAA's S2s. At the time, the loss of S2B XW526 near Osnabruck in July 1979 was blamed on the shearing/failure of the locking pin (which was never recovered) causing the wing to fold in flight and depart. After the subsequent loss of XV345 in Nevada 6 months later, which then uncovered the spar cracking issue, a lot of people on the Buccaneer squadons felt this is what had actually caused the loss of XW526.

There's also a great doc on the last days of the Vulcan which is equally good. It's just a shame that you don't get to see more of the aircraft which is obviously a mind blowing machine. I saw XH558 once driving down a bid dual carriagway, it was following the road in the same direction as me.

I was a member (and donor - my name was one of those listed on the bomb bay doors) of the XH558 Club/Vulcan To The Sky Club for many years, and saw it display a few times once it finally got back into the air. The most memorable was it's last appearance at Southport in 2015 (one of it's last shows) - I suspect that as the crew knew the old girl's time was up, they were less concerned about preserving the remaining fatigue life and engine hours.

[buzby]

The Phantom documentary you mention features Grange Hill's Mr Bronson as the belligerent Chief Technician, as well as some actual RAF people.

Also Trevor Eve as the unfortunate pilot, and the blonde-haired guy who is Sheard's subordinate is Jeremy 'Boba Fett' Bulloch.

[gilbertharding]

Also Trevor Eve as the unfortunate pilot, and the blonde-haired guy who is Sheard's subordinate is Jerermy 'Boba Fett' Bulloch.

Trevor Eve! I didn't recognise him - but might have known he was an actor from the state of his hair which I thought was long even for a Flight Lieutenant in the 70s.

This is a good one:

[Dex Sawash]

Infantry shows never short you on pimple faced youth bayonetting burlap baddies, running and jumping. These air things never show bomber defense tactics/strategy training/methods for the gunner positions, usually just some pre-deployment vague inane dialog about flying close together thrown in with pointless unicorn hijinx

[badaids]

The Phantom documentary you mention features Grange Hill's Mr Bronson as the belligerent Chief Technician, as well as some actual RAF people.

Re Bananas Bananas, I read a write up of the Buccaneer's role in guiding Tornado bombing raids in the first Gulf War, which was pretty interesting: https://www.globalaviationresource.com/reports/2011/gulfwar20thbuccaneer.php

Shit yeah it is Mr Bronson isn't it. How did I not notice?  But one for the fuck me thread - is that really Boba Fett?

Buzby - thanks again for you post, I love it.

[buzby]

This is a good one:

Note the white cooling suits (RAF suit, air ventilated, Mk.2A, otherwise known as the 'fairy' suit) you see the crew putting on in the locker room. On the surplus market they became the suits for Cybermen in Dr Who, worn by by David Bowie in the Ashes to Ashes video, Kate Bush in the video for The Dreaming and was hanging in the Narcissus' space suit locker that Ripley hides in at the end of Alien.

But one for the fuck me thread - is that really Boba Fett?

With Irving Kershner and an unmasked David Prowse:

Bulloch also had an unmasked role in ESB as Lieutenant Sheckil, the Imperial officer in charge of capturing Leia and Han on Bespin, after the actor cast for the part became unavailable at short notice:

[gilbertharding]

Note the white cooling suits (RAF suit, air ventilated, Mk.2A, otherwise known as the 'fairy' suit) you see the crew putting on in the locker room. On the surplus market they became the suits for Cybermen in Dr Who, worn by by David Bowie in the Ashes to Ashes video, Kate Bush in the video for The Dreaming and was hanging in the Narcissus' space suit locker that Ripley hides in at the end of Alien.

https://www.historicflyingclothing.com/en-GB/raf-flying-suits---post-ww2/raf-flying-suit-air-ventilated-mk-2a/prod_19120

In other Sci-Fi/RAF gear 'news', the string vests worn by the crew of the Sky Diver submarine in UFO were RAF Fire Crew apparel. As worn, they were matched with string long johns, as a base layer under heavy woollen trousers and jackets. I remember they used to 'cut a dash' in the Other Ranks Mess when I was in the Air Cadets, swanning around in their string vests and their massive boots.

[Endicott]

Band of Brothers has in effect ruined all other wars series because it's impossible to make anything that good again. I mean the Pacific was okay, but its miles behind BoB.

BoB didn't quite achieve this for me, but Generation Kill did.

[badaids]

BoB didn't quite achieve this for me, but Generation Kill did.

Generation Kill is brilliant to, I had forgotten about that one. But for me Band of Brothers is far more affecting.

[badaids]

Just popped in as I remembered to say that Masters of the Air is an appalling name for the series.  As much as anything they never had anything more than a favourable air situation hence the horrendous attrition rate on crews.

[Elderly Sumo Prophecy]

Disasters of the Air

[El Unicornio, mang]

Generation War (Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter) is a pretty good one, kind of a German Band of Brothers. Although it maybe leans a bit too much into the myth of the clean Wehrmacht.

[badaids]

Generation War (Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter) is a pretty good one, kind of a German Band of Brothers. Although it maybe leans a bit too much into the myth of the clean Wehrmacht.

Thanks for the rec, it looks like it upset a lot if people this one; will watch.

[Josef K]

Am quite enjoying this, but I can't fucking stand the credit sequence with the soppy flag-shagging music and montage of soldiers looking all heroic. Band of Brothers and The Pacific did exactly the same. It's like their main brief was 'how can we make yer grandad stand up and salute the TV'.

Was surprised to find out it was made by the same company that did the brilliant Invasion intro. That kind of style would be a lot less mince:

As for the show, lot less gripping than its two predecessors, but I suppose a lot of that is down to the enemy threat being quite predictable and (so far) limited to the missions, rather than the surprise attacks in Band of Brothers.

Also, Austin Butler is too handsome it takes me out of it.

Cockpit scenes are fantastically tense and visceral though. Environment/plane CGI can be pretty bad.

[A Hat Like That]

BoB didn't quite achieve this for me, but Generation Kill did.

In for another recommendation on Generation Kill.

EDIT: will go further on this - got both books written about Generation Kill, the one by the embedded journalist and the one by the junior officer. Both are great reads on their own terms. They even tie in with Rory Stewart's Iraq book iirc, but they spare that from the TV series ...

[A Hat Like That]

Generation War (Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter) is a pretty good one, kind of a German Band of Brothers. Although it maybe leans a bit too much into the myth of the clean Wehrmacht.

Also on my rewatch list - I'd have argued maybe the other way as by the end everyone has blood on their hands

Spoiler alert

(or are dead)

[close]

. I think it tries to make that clear.

[Inspector Norse]

Three episodes in and finding this pretty gripping.

It's not Band of Brothers of course and as others have said probably nothing ever can be, but taken on its own terms it's been strong stuff now. Episode three was really tense and harrowing and

Spoiler alert

I didn't expect Aul Potato Face to go down already.

[close]

Like others I wasn't sure about Butler and Turner as the leads at first but I think they got some good moments here - Butler when he was in the cockpit watching the clusterfuck going on around him and you could see something in his eyes change and die, Turner near the end when his "we're gonna get through this" sounded sad and pleading rather than cocky and stupid.

On the subject of MORE WAR PLEASE there's a Finnish series Unknown Soldier on Netflix that's meant to be very good (initially released in condensed form as a film then the extended version came out as a miniseries).

[George White]

My cousin, Elan Butler appears later on.

[Pavlov`s Dog`s Dad`s Dead]

Three episodes in and finding this pretty gripping.

It's not Band of Brothers of course and as others have said probably nothing ever can be, but taken on its own terms it's been strong stuff now. Episode three was really tense and harrowing and

Spoiler alert

I didn't expect Aul Potato Face to go down already.

[close]

Like others I wasn't sure about Butler and Turner as the leads at first but I think they got some good moments here - Butler when he was in the cockpit watching the clusterfuck going on around him and you could see something in his eyes change and die, Turner near the end when his "we're gonna get through this" sounded sad and pleading rather than cocky and stupid.

Yes, agreed, I think it's shifted up a gear as of episode three. Those scenes you mention were exactly the things that struck me. That sequence of carnage unfolding in the sky* was extraordinary, and it was an impressive performance to say that most of his face was obscured by his mask.

Actually, there was one scene in episode 2 which I thought was very effective: the sound design introduces straining engines in the background of a conversation, and then a plane just plummets into the ground in the backdrop: it's a risky business just being up there, whether or not there are fighters or flak actively trying to help you on your way down. Also, in retrospect, episode 2 sets up another of the key events of episode 3

Spoiler alert

in that yer man there might have thought twice about not bailing out if he hadn't pulled off one successful emergency landing already.

[close]

On the negative side, that conversation about his dad the gambler as they watched the air raid over Norwich didn't ring at all true. I mean, they can only work with the material they are given, but that scene seemed enormously clumsy.

On a technical note, are they going old-school with the release schedule? The, um, streaming service I am using only has the first three episodes up. Have they not dropped the whole series at once?


*

Spoiler alert

the falling airman being chopped in two by the plane wing was an especially horrific detail - is that drawn from the source material or did someone make it up? I have a vague memory from The Cruel Sea of a shipwrecked sailor laconically shouting "Taxi!" up at the warship steaming past him and his doomed shipmates, which similarly seems so outlandish that it must have actually happened.

[close]