When The Simpsons was good

[madhair60]

I despise the presumption the creators of videos like this make that people would want to listen to someone speaking like that, away and shite YouTube.

i can't fucking stand the way that cunt speaks.

[idunnosomename]

I tried to watch the Leftorium episode last night and it felt a bit weird. The characters didn't feel right. Is season 4 considered the start of the golden era?

We've been watching absolutely loads of simpsons recently. There's a few good episodes between season 10-12 but we haven't dared venture further yet. Does anyone have any good later episode recommendations because we're running out of classics

Theres a subtle shift inside S4 where original staff are replaced by younger writers and the stories move from internal family dynamics towards Springfield being an ensemble cast with the Simpsons at the centre, telling bigger stories. Marge vs the Monorail is the perfect example, a golden age classic now but completely alien to season 1. Climax of this is Who Shot Mr Burns, they rolled it back a bit in S7. S8 should have been the final season of just doing whatever anyone wanted, but it didnt stop and just rolled on doing lower and lower grade slop.

Its worth watching every episode in broadcast order imo. Season 1 is great too if you can take it on its own terms.

[Video Game Fan 2000]

i can't fucking stand the way that cunt speaks.

you can't be a youtube essayist without the cadence of a bicycle horn

S8 should have been the final season of just doing whatever anyone wanted, but it didnt stop and just rolled on doing lower and lower grade slop.

i dont think they could have returned a family based show because they were a decade removed from the Reagan/TV generic consumer family and so much of Homer, Marge and Bart depends on the eras they grew up in. Lisa's a bit more generic - can imagine her having a geocities site about Malibu Stacy but not Bart having a N64, not really.

as people frequently mention in reaction to the "look what one income was expected to support in the 90s" meme about the Simpsons house and lifestyles - Homer only makes sense if he grew up poor in the 70s, then lucked into a job in the late 80s where he had to do fuck all except be a middle aged white guy and bring home fat stacks of cash. marge being a genuinely smart talented person who gave it all up for marriage, the kids being endlessly indulged yet their school being underfunded shit, parents resisting media influence on their children but watching it for hours themselves, alcoholism as a point of pride...this things are specific, its a parody of a spoiled part of a certain generation. barts slightly old fashioned tastes for a clown show and comic books. so much of the interpersonal stuff between the family members hinges on generational specificity and just doesn't work if you translate it to the end of the 90s or mid 00s. "Summer of 4ft 2" and "Homer v the City of New York" work as finales for the Simpsons because they show how the family had become artifacts at that point - without being meta, and Bart and Lisa's interactions with accurately portrayed 90s kid in "Summer of 4ft 2" is one of the shows most moving moments. how can you move Bart beyond "who does he think he is, Dennis the Menace?" - its not just about making period appropriate jokes, its about how having interpersonal relationships between family members beyond 1998ish meant they had to be rewritten completely. but they didn't rewrite them either, they just did whatever they needed season by season which makes the show fucking godawful - Homer is still a boomer with boomer preoccupations, but he's also an early millenial internet celebrity was in a grunge band and a clout chasing 2010s wannabe. its nonsense. its not bad writing, its no writing.

my idea is that Season 9 should have been soft-rebranded as "Springfield" and reduced the central family stuff. imo what makes bad Simpsons bad isn't the wacky and mean humour, its wacky and mean humour with Zombie set up of a family the viewer cares about. The Simpsons could have continued as a wacky dopey stupid cartoon show and still been fairly funny, if it avoided desecrating the Simpson family themselves. then maybe they could have done the occassional heartstrings ep and pulled it off.  someone not so seriously mentioned the idea of a "Springfield Stories" spin off related to the Short Films ep. this may have been the idea that saved the show.

The relationships between the Simpsons family members is one of the crown jewel achievements of television writing. Pissing all over that is what ruined the show, and subtly sunsetting it could have preserved things a little longer at least.
 

[Proactive]

Beautifully said.

[Proactive]

Another way you could have done it is to age everyone in real time so we'd have seen Bart, Lisa and Maggie go through their teens through to having their own families etc, ditto for everyone else in Springfield. Bart would be in his mid forties now. Why the fuck not, couldn't have been any worse than what actually happened.

[idunnosomename]

the 1-8 run works because you can plausibly stretch the cast's ages without them losing their generation identities. if you're 10 in 1995 you can sorta see how Bart being 10 in 1990 and for the next few years makes sense. By this point you have your own Bart and it's just fucking absurd.

There's a weird smugness that sets in at season 8 that the writing staff have this consensus they are above new characters (The Itchy, Scratchy and Poochie Show S8E12), spin offs (The Simpsons Spin-Off Showcase S8E24) which emboldens the idea under the Scully years it can go on for fucking forever as it is (The ending song of Gump Roast S13E17). Yeah great you're like Family Guy now where a bunch of obnoxious characters get in obnoxious situations and are obnoxious and there's a reference to something. well done.

edit: oh wait Al Jean is showrunner by S13. well, the damage had been done

[Video Game Fan 2000]

can you imagine how bad the viewer reaction to an appropriately aged Lisa Simpson would have been in the 00s?

Lisa gets worried that her night with a tutor in college wasn't entirely consensual on her part, but doesn't want to hurt the career of someone she still thinks of as basically good. Lisa gets disillusioned with Barack Obama but phonebanks anyway because she's worried about funding to planned parenthood being cut and without Obamacare Homer's gonna get diabetes. Lisa gets told her opposition to Charter schools is racist.

that's the other thing about the Simpsons in the 90s - it got to have its cake and eat it in regards to being a progressive show. for whatever coincidence of influences, it was destined be the one show that could do an ep about being gay or immigration or why alcoholism is a disease and not a failure of character - and be accepted with only minor right wing outcry. imagining any progressive show staying true to those principles after the end of the PC era is almost impossible. a college age Bart who loves South Park and is told not to take shock humour too far by a concerned Marge, a post-college Lisa who experiments with gender presentation. an honest discussion about the families responsibilities to Grandpa. Marge needs to get a job to pay the mortgage but decides to have her own bank account too. these things would not fly even if equivalent early 90s issues did. show the 90s Republicans as monsters in a vampire castle, good. show GWB as a war-crazed monkey, brick through the window.

taking the simpsons family out of late 80s/early 90s context creates loads of problems the writers just could not be arsed with

(The ending song of Gump Roast S13E17).

didnt have a tv between 2001 and 2004, and i when i saw this for the first time it was a low quality download and i thought it was an online piss take about how bad the last two seasons were. unbelievable it was how an actual show ended. was like a Something Awful mockery of the show at that point.

[idunnosomename]

not sure the Simpsons can really claim to be progressive. Homer's Phobia isn't a bad episode but it's quite uncomfortable making Homer bigoted. usually it just pokes fun at the edges, it doesn't criticise its characters. Homer being anti-gay is actually kinda weird and doesn't work. we're supposed to identify with him, and here he's he a dickhead (I know this sort of thing, Homer is bad actually, is sent up in Homer's Enemy, but that just makes it even messier)

Also, killing Maude Flanders was needlessly cruel and pointless and even worse it was mostly spurred by getting rid of Maggie Roswell from the payroll because she dared asked for a bit more money to cover her costs. there's a terrible lack of female talent behind the Simpsons in its golden age and beyond, look how few female writers there were (Mimi Pond was basically bullied out after writing Simpsons Roasting...). Far too much of the female voice work even today is oh get Tress MacNeille to do it. There's no interest in getting a female equivalent of Shearer/Azaria/Castellaneta and it really irks. Even South Park Studios do better with branching out on the female voice cast (Jessica Makinson is pretty much their third go-to now for regular recurring roles)

[Mobius]

i watched the episode where bart steals bonestorm last night. quite a sad episode, marge and family are real mean to bart :(

[Video Game Fan 2000]

not sure the Simpsons can really claim to be progressive.

yeah, i think i agree. the aim for the show i think was to mix cartoon humour and realism in a similar way to how Life In Hell mixed up cartoon nihilism with real issues. there's a big gulf between satirical presentation of reality and being progressive in that sense

im never quite sure how they intended Lisa and Marge to be read. in one way they are ahead of the curve in how they didn't make a big deal about showing Marge and Lisa's desires, they weren't just sympathetic they presented them in an identical way as they did Homer and Bart. but on the other hand they were a constant butt of jokes, that's why its "have your cake and eat it" situation. Lisa got to be one of tv's few sincere feminist characters without fanfare or hoo-ha, but she learned to be moderate at the end of every episode. Marge got to have her feelings and sacrifices represented as part of the family's life, but lol she liked the monkees and wanted to be an astronaut. also its unfair if homer doesnt get to fuck her no matter how much obnoxious fat slob he is. everyone in the family is owed her affections.

by the time Maude is killed off the show had become irredeemably sexist. that's why its impossible for me to imagine an accurately aged Lisa in it: a Clinton-era liberal Lisa in the age of Bush would have had to something out of the Goode Family or else not broadcast at all.

i think the best way to put it is that the Simpsons was left wing by the standards of mass media when Groening was a graduate hipster in the late 70s. it was mainstream TV playing catch up to alternative culture and media. by the 90s the world had moved so, so far beyond it that Homer's Enemy/Homer's Phobia seemed like relics, like mean 80s liberal movie humour not with-it Gen X/PC irony. one of my theories about why those episodes were beloved at the time (I liked them) is that they seemed like they were ironic in a way that they weren't, and the show's cynicism was read as a irony by younger millenial viewers like me who just didn't know any better or have many alternatives.

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

I tried to watch the Leftorium episode last night and it felt a bit weird. The characters didn't feel right. Is season 4 considered the start of the golden era?

I think at that point in the show they were still working on Ned being more of a rival/foil to Homer than the pious prudish Christian who lives next door. His family have nicer things, his kids are better behaved, his wife's butt is higher than Homer's wife's butt etc. He's kind and generous and God-fearing and everything Homer isn't and Homer resents him for that. It's an aspect of Ned's character and Homer's relationship with him that falls away as the show goes on.

i think the best way to put it is that the Simpsons was left wing by the standards of mass media when Groening was a graduate hipster in the late 70s. it was mainstream TV playing catch up to alternative culture and media. by the 90s the world had moved so, so far beyond it that Homer's Enemy/Homer's Phobia seemed like relics, like mean 80s liberal movie humour not with-it Gen X/PC irony.

I've mentioned it before but the episode where Homer gets sent to India to run the Springfield Nuclear India division or whatever has this line in it, "You're the first man to ever outsource the American worker's sense of entitlement and privilege" in response to Indian workers talking about paid sick leave and personal days.

Apart from the fact that it's aged like fucking milk, LISA says that line.

Lisa.

[MattD]

Has there ever been a show that has gone from being utterly perfect to mediocre, bordering terrible like The Simpsons? I think there's a strong argument that the peak years of The Simpsons is the greatest TV programme of all time.

But does anyone know of any classic Simpsons episodes post-season 10 (about the time when it becomes real dross?)? I thought the movie was good, not great. Even something of that standard would be fine to pick out and watch seeing as I've got the Disney subscription now.

But amongst all the millions of episodes produced since the turn of the millennium, are there any genuine stone cold classics?

[Sebastian Cobb]

Memed to absolute hell and back, but still wonderful.

Discovered the Aussie dub recently.

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

Behind the Laughter is good and should've served as the series finale.

[idunnosomename]

Behind the Laughter is good and should've served as the series finale.

funnily enough it was the latest episode the BBC ever aired.

[jazzy_sabotage]

Behind the Laughter is good and should've served as the series finale.

The fact that the whole closing 'Simpsons are going to Delaware' joke about their ideas going down the toilet in it actually happened for real in an episode only one season later is endlessly poetic but also pure desolation. Other than that yeah it obvs should've been the end

[idunnosomename]

But amongst all the millions of episodes produced since the turn of the millennium, are there any genuine stone cold classics?

i wonder who on this forum has seen the most episodes of the Simpsons to verify that no, they are all bad. it's kind of amazing that's it's pretty normal to have seen every single episode from seasons 1-10 for a Gen X'r/millennial, but if you've seen everything from the last twenty years you're probably a Youtuber who did it for a thing and it sent you slightly insane.

[Wezzo]

Has there ever been a show that has gone from being utterly perfect to mediocre, bordering terrible like The Simpsons? I think there's a strong argument that the peak years of The Simpsons is the greatest TV programme of all time.

But does anyone know of any classic Simpsons episodes post-season 10 (about the time when it becomes real dross?)? I thought the movie was good, not great. Even something of that standard would be fine to pick out and watch seeing as I've got the Disney subscription now.

But amongst all the millions of episodes produced since the turn of the millennium, are there any genuine stone cold classics?

I've seen every episode (misplaced loyalty? obsessive compulsion?) and while there are a few I think are decent - Moe Baby Blues, Eternal Moonshine of the Simpson Mind, The Book Job, Holidays of Future Passed, Halloween of Horror - there's not one single episode that could truly be considered a bona fide classic. The show, and its mechanics, just became too different a beast. The Internet is full of YouTubers and listmakers claiming that there are still gems among the rough, but I maintain that nothing from the last 23 years would satisfy anyone looking for the show fo recapture the 90s glory.

[madhair60]

i wonder who on this forum has seen the most episodes of the Simpsons to verify that no, they are all bad. it's kind of amazing that's it's pretty normal to have seen every single episode from seasons 1-10 for a Gen X'r/millennial, but if you've seen everything from the last twenty years you're probably a Youtuber who did it for a thing and it sent you slightly insane.

I've seen everything through season 27 and I'm starting on 28 soon. I feel as though I have to do this to truly knock back the insane suggestions that the show is ever "good again", because thus far - and I promise you this is not an exaggeration on any level - I would say I have enjoyed three episodes of the show across seasons 13 to 27. And by "enjoyed", I mean "were basically okay, had a few laughs, wouldn't recommend actively seeking them out but didn't overtly bore or irritate me".

[madhair60]

Season 22's "Homer the Father", while it has a stupid plot, is probably my favourite episode post season 12. And I'd say it's okay at best.

I think I've talked about it before, but compared to 13 onwards, the Mike Scully years are fucking joyous. Episodes held up as the series' worst, like Simpson Safari or Saddlesore Galactica, are unbelievably funny compared to what followed. Isn't that fucking sickening?

[Captain Z]

Does anyone have any good later episode recommendations because we're running out of classics

But does anyone know of any classic Simpsons episodes post-season 10

[mrpupkin]

I tried to watch the Leftorium episode last night and it felt a bit weird. The characters didn't feel right. Is season 4 considered the start of the golden era?

We've been watching absolutely loads of simpsons recently. There's a few good episodes between season 10-12 but we haven't dared venture further yet. Does anyone have any good later episode recommendations because we're running out of classics

Puking at this. Leftorium weird? Season 4 the start of the golden era? Running out of classics but overlooking seasons 1-3? Pearls before swine, three whole seasons of beautiful golden pearls!

[idunnosomename]

Always bizarre how they never released the three years' of shorts. They should've been on the season 1 DVD, and yhey certainly should be on Disney+.

Do wonder if it's still some residual rights problem with Tracey Ullman who seems to think she should get money from The Simpsons in general.

Even if they're primitive in a lot of senses, the animation is charming and uts fun to see things like "d'oh" and "why you little..." emerge for the first times

[Pink Gregory]

what is mind, doesn't matter
what is matter, never mind
*terrifying laugh*

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

I think this is from a post classic years episode, but I like this gag nonetheless.

[JaDanketies]

There's rumours that the last two seasons have some good episodes. For A Serious Flanders; wikipedia says "Both parts received overwhelmingly positive reception from critics, with some citing both of them as being one of the best episodes to happen in the last decade of the show."

[Pink Gregory]

There's rumours that the last two seasons have some good episodes. For A Serious Flanders; wikipedia says "Both parts received overwhelmingly positive reception from critics, with some citing both of them as being one of the best episodes to happen in the last decade of the show."

the video posted above covers this a bit, the main takeaway from what I saw is that the writers have learned to calm down on the joke rate a bit, which is somewhat positive; but from what else is in the video it seems like any experiments at this point are diversions into genre, which feels a lot like a modern cartoon thing and not the Simpsons. 

Whatever they do they'll always be playing catch-up.  Somewhat serious action + comedy?  That's Archer, or even Rick and Morty.  One off episodes with a particular theme or narrative device?  Bojack Horseman and many others.  Hell even Bob's Burgers have overtaken reliable portmanteau fantasy episodes.

[dissolute ocelot]

Regarded the show being outdated, according to TV Tropes Groening originally considered a series set in the late 50s/early 60s, which would be a parody of the family shows of the time, and would make sense. I wonder if they could just pretend it all takes place in the late 80s, but then we would miss the hilarious episode where Bart gets a cellphone!?

TV Tropes being fond of lists actually has some good lists of all the outdated things on The Simpsons: The Artifact, Unintentional Period Piece

[Ignatius_S]

There's rumours that the last two seasons have some good episodes. For A Serious Flanders; wikipedia says "Both parts received overwhelmingly positive reception from critics, with some citing both of them as being one of the best episodes to happen in the last decade of the show."

Just about everyone I know really hated that two-parter - basically, it's a non-canon story where Springfield is transplanted into a Fargo-like, very violent story (Timothy Olyphant and Brian Cox guest-star). To my mind, it's rather in the style of a long-form story better suited to the Halloween style.

If you like the sound of that, it's pure gravy but although it has received a lot of plaudits online, but I think it's fair to say, that a fair few didn't think it much cop. For me, it's if you have to do these things so removed from the show itself to try and keep relevant, maybe it's time to stop.

I have seen rather a lot of the show recently, I would classify it as 'competent/pretty good'.

I wouldn't argue with someone if they said it was 'good' but I think the key question is really 'would you say this is a show that is worth prioritising watching over other shows?'

If someone asked me the latter, I would struggle to say yes in a clear conscience.

[Ferris]

No gags here really, just a lovely little animated segment.

I'd never noticed the music is a Spanish guitar type cover of Golden Slumbers! What a nice touch.