Reevaluating Lost

[BeardFaceMan]

i think the makers of breaking bad had a very simplistic idea for how it ended

Spoiler alert

walt dies

[close]

but they mostly made it up as they went along.

Oh for sure, they've said that themselves, they had a definite end point in mind but didn't know how they were going to get there (and importantly, they stuck to their end point). But most US dramas seem to enter the writers room without an end point, just a premise and that's it, they make up both the journey and the destination as they go, that's why they're mostly unsatisfying. Like an author sitting down to write a book and not thinking more than one chapter ahead at a time, you rarely get a cohesive story at the end of it.

[Ja'moke]

There must be some examples out there, though. All seasons of The Wire are very well reviewed, so I hope when I finally get round to watching it I'm not disappointed.

The Wire's final season isn't great. There are still some excellent characters, but there is a ridiculous storyline that doesn't quite fit the tone of The Wire. The finale itself is good, though.

[Malcy]

This weeks Honest Trailer is Lost.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Lxq6JgKLNXI

[popcorn]

This weeks Honest Trailer is Lost.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Lxq6JgKLNXI

Argh another YouTube thing I hate. Surely it defeats the object of doing this as a trailer when it's 10 minutes long

[petril]

Oh for sure, they've said that themselves, they had a definite end point in mind but didn't know how they were going to get there (and importantly, they stuck to their end point). But most US dramas seem to enter the writers room without an end point, just a premise and that's it, they make up both the journey and the destination as they go, that's why they're mostly unsatisfying. Like an author sitting down to write a book and not thinking more than one chapter ahead at a time, you rarely get a cohesive story at the end of it.

seems to be an effect how how the US telly industry evolved into a sort of production line, so it became necessary to not have an ending so that it could just run and run until it got cancelled. I suppose there might be a parallel with the serialised fiction in the 19th century, Dickens et al churning out more story in more parts

[Endicott]

The Wire's final season isn't great. There are still some excellent characters, but there is a ridiculous storyline that doesn't quite fit the tone of The Wire. The finale itself is good, though.

Someone always says this. I don't think it's that much more ridiculous than the main plot of S3

Spoiler alert

a police commander legalising drugs

[close]

. Perhaps not quite as interesting but it's done to make a point.

PS TC - watch it because its still the best drama ever broadcast on TV.

[Famous Mortimer]

All seasons of The Wire are very well reviewed, so I hope when I finally get round to watching it I'm not disappointed.

The last one got some pretty negative reviews, I vaguely remember.

But re: the rest of what you wrote, completely agree. It's like reading a book where the first third is tight and exciting but the middle bit just never ends.

[sevendaughters]

The point of the final series of the Wire is one that serves the naturalism (ie. realism in the Zola-esque style, that systems may direct our fate but we are all bound to our destiny which is inextricably linked with who are and have been all along) so while McNulty's little strangler game is too cute, the point is simply that he is a car crash and a walking fuck up and Omar is walking dead but at least expects it and Marlo is a street-bound thug and Daniels is an outsider and Michael is the new Omar (and thus dead) and - MOST IMPORTANTLY - Bubbles can redeem himself in the smallest way by actually confronting HIMSELF in the most profound way possible. Bubbles is the heart of series 5, really, and why I now think it is a successful series (in spite of obvious flaws).

[Menu]

Breaking Bad? It certainly had a great ending that made sense.

I've seen that but I was thinking more of these mystery shows, like Lost. Where weird things happen but get explained eventually. We watched Carnivale a few years ago which apparently did have it all worked out but HBO pulled the plug and they had to fit about 4 seasons into two episodes.

[Menu]

I'm struggling to think of many, mainly because it's anathema to the US system of making (i.e. the writers' room) and commissioning (i.e. make it til they're sick of it). All of the examples I can think of which go out on a high are British-made, and I suspect even Deadwood would have gone to shit if they'd have kept on making it rather than just canning it.

I think I probably say this on a monthly basis here but I think the Deadwood ending works fine for what it is. Obviously I'd have liked the fourth season but I don't feel like there were any loose ends that particularly needed to be tied up. And sometimes shows - even great shows - go on far too long. I think if Mad Men had finished after three seasons I'd think much more of it than I do.

That's why Lost was so good by the end - they knew the story they wanted to tell and they knew how long it would take. And fortunately ABC allowed them to do it.

[sevendaughters]

It is clear that a great deal of prestige shows are never written with a clear and definitive end in sight because that would trample all over the efforts to maximine its revenue and syndicate it worldwide. Lost could have been a tight 2/3 seasons but the narrative hook was strong, so they spent years padding and Frankensteining a meaning that frankly does not hold up to any reasonable scrutiny. It also made a lot of people a lot of money, and frankly you're a bit of a mark if you don't put this economic reality ahead of its artfulness and attempt at resolution. Embrace the way it made you feel at its purest and recognise that US TV is not structured in favour of the auteur and the idealist.

[Utter Shit]

Season 5 of The Wire is nowhere near as good as the previous four seasons, and still much better than more or less every other TV show ever made. The negative reviews IMO are testament to the heights it reached previously. *That* storyline is a bit silly but I would argue less silly than

Spoiler alert

the entire existence of Brother Mouzone

[close]

and there is loads of great stuff elsewhere in the final season. The way it wraps up is fantastic

Spoiler alert

with various younger characters shown to be developing into the new breed of the characters we meet throughout the show is so well done...Dukie the smart kid getting hooked on heroin like Bubbles, Marlo following Avon's arc by trying to go legit and realising he just wants to be a gangster, Michael accepting his fate and deliberately trying to be the new Omar...that last one breaks my heart.

[close]

I know I'm not saying anything new here and I don't want to be one of those Wire bores, but everyone should watch it. Accept that you're probably going to find it confusing to the point of not actually being enjoyable for almost the entire first season (I think I actively disliked it until about the eleventh episode), push through that feeling and when you come out the other side you will find the best TV show ever made. Then you can go back and rewatch the first season, understand everything that happens and realise that season is absolutely brilliant as well. It's an incredible show that does absolutely nothing to help you to like it in the early moments. It just drops you in and lets you work it out for yourself, which is infuriating at first but well-rewarded.

Turns out I do want to be one of those Wire bores. What a show.

[purlieu]

Are there any, ahem, 'oven-ready' shows that did plan it all and therefore had a great ending that made sense?

Babylon 5 just about did it, but the fear that the final season would never been shown because the channel got bought out rushed the fourth season (so it could potentially be wrapped up in a couple of films), which meant when the fifth season did get commissioned, the story got really stretched out and there's a run of about ten really fucking boring episodes that just about spoils the whole thing. But the overall plot exactly followed what was initially planned. It's sad that aspects that were set up to form the basis of a spinoff series were never fully explored after that show, Crusade, got canned after 13 episodes.

[druss]

Season 5 of The Wire is nowhere near as good as the previous four seasons, and still much better than more or less every other TV show ever made. The negative reviews IMO are testament to the heights it reached previously. *That* storyline is a bit silly but I would argue less silly than

Spoiler alert

the entire existence of Brother Mouzone

[close]

and there is loads of great stuff elsewhere in the final season. The way it wraps up is fantastic

Spoiler alert

with various younger characters shown to be developing into the new breed of the characters we meet throughout the show is so well done...Dukie the smart kid getting hooked on heroin like Bubbles, Marlo following Avon's arc by trying to go legit and realising he just wants to be a gangster, Michael accepting his fate and deliberately trying to be the new Omar...that last one breaks my heart.

[close]

I know I'm not saying anything new here and I don't want to be one of those Wire bores, but everyone should watch it. Accept that you're probably going to find it confusing to the point of not actually being enjoyable for almost the entire first season (I think I actively disliked it until about the eleventh episode), push through that feeling and when you come out the other side you will find the best TV show ever made. Then you can go back and rewatch the first season, understand everything that happens and realise that season is absolutely brilliant as well. It's an incredible show that does absolutely nothing to help you to like it in the early moments. It just drops you in and lets you work it out for yourself, which is infuriating at first but well-rewarded.

Turns out I do want to be one of those Wire bores. What a show.

Indeed, the final season is only weak in relative terms to what went before, it's still better than almost anything else and it wraps up beautifully.

I also remember watching the first season and thinking "... is this it?" then suddenly it clicks into place and you've got the closest thing to an on screen novel as has ever been shown on TV, not a scene is wasted. It's only after seeing it all and going back to the first season that you realise every line of dialogue has a purpose. Loved watching it the second time and rather than thinking "is this it?" I was thinking "ahhhhh! Clever, brilliant bastards".

I'll stop being a Wire cunt now. Lost was good fun.

[Menu]

Babylon 5 just about did it, but the fear that the final season would never been shown because the channel got bought out rushed the fourth season (so it could potentially be wrapped up in a couple of films), which meant when the fifth season did get commissioned, the story got really stretched out and there's a run of about ten really fucking boring episodes that just about spoils the whole thing. But the overall plot exactly followed what was initially planned. It's sad that aspects that were set up to form the basis of a spinoff series were never fully explored after that show, Crusade, got canned after 13 episodes.

Thank you! I'll look that up.

[kidsick5000]

Are there any, ahem, 'oven-ready' shows that did plan it all and therefore had a great ending that made sense?

Alias came close and looked ready to round out its fourth season with a great finale.
But it seems they had a late "reprieve" and were given a fifth season, which meant it hobbled past the conclusion with 17-episodes of less-interesting loose ends 

[DrGreggles]

Into the 2nd half of s1 now and it's still really good - especially knowing how it all plays out. I'd forgotten how fucking creepy some of it was.
Locke, Sawyer and Hurley are my favourite s1 characters - as they were then.
I was hoping to find Jack less annoying this time round, but I still think he's a prick.

[touchingcloth]

PS TC - watch it because its still the best drama ever broadcast on TV.

Oh I'm definitely going to watch it. It's sat waiting for me to have the time to properly dedicate to it without interruptions. I'm pretty sure it's not one of those things you can just keep half an eye on or try and focus on while scoffing your tea.

I think I probably say this on a monthly basis here but I think the Deadwood ending works fine for what it is. Obviously I'd have liked the fourth season but I don't feel like there were any loose ends that particularly needed to be tied up.

I'd agree with this. It's kind of an enigmatic ending in that the writers' didn't put together the series 3 finale as being the overall show's finale, it just ends on a cliffhanger rather than a resolution. But you can definitely choose to reinterpret the cliffhanger as its own sort of resolution, kind of like how Blade Runner ends with Deckard and Rachael leaving to who knows where, or the ending of the (book of) Handmaid's Tale.

Babylon 5 just about did it

Babylon 5's a big pile of shit.

[DrGreggles]

Finished s1 now and, with the exceptions of the Charlie and Boone flashbacks, there's very little padding across 25 (telly) hours. It's an incredible season of TV.
Good fun seeing how some of the flashbacks interlink as well - plenty of things that I'd never noticed before.
Forgotten how laughably bad some of the wigs and accents were too.

[amputeeporn]

Rewatched this in lockdown - great to have hundreds of hours of million-dollar TV to blast through in these circumstances.

Would broadly agree with OP's breakdown of the seasons. The show definitely got a worse rap than it deserved due to the padded middle and the ending. To be perfectly honest, I wouldn't have cared if nothing was explained if it had maintained the entertainment standards of the first season. People who only watched for ANSWERS missed the point entirely. With that said, I don't think the creators did themselves any favours by playing such a 'ahhh, got you!' game with fans. If they'd maintained some silence and mystery, a certain percentage of frustration and disappointment might have been avoided.

For me, there is severe saggage in the back end of the show - four was revitalising but I was checking my watch a bit in season 5, and as we moved into more magical territory my girlfriend (who was fine with the general weirdness) basically lost interest.

The tight four season version of the show with a banging ending would be an all-timer. As it is, it has some incredible seasons/moments but is a mixed bag.

[Ja'moke]

I'm in the back half of Season 2 now in my rewatch. The season starts off strong with Desmond and the Hatch and the raft crew washing up on the other side of the island with the tail section survivors and Mr. Eko being a badass. But after that it dips quite a bit into boring territory, the whole Charlie/Claire/Locke heroin/baby drama and Kate/Jack/Sawyer stuff is dull.

Things are really picking up again now though with Ben's arrival. I forgot how such a good shit stirrer he is, playing into Locke and Jack's power struggle.

[purlieu]

People who only watched for ANSWERS missed the point entirely. With that said, I don't think the creators did themselves any favours by playing such a 'ahhh, got you!' game with fans. If they'd maintained some silence and mystery, a certain percentage of frustration and disappointment might have been avoided.

Yeah, I think one of the big issues is that it was very much marketed as a mystery programme, with the creators always talking about answers. If they then don't give answers, it's a bit... cheap.

[DrGreggles]

Things are really picking up again now though with Ben's arrival. I forgot how such a good shit stirrer he is, playing into Locke and Jack's power struggle.

If someone watched all of Lost and didn't think Ben was the best character, then they weren't paying attention.

[BRen]

I loved Lost, and still do. The weekly debates after each episode, trying to figure out what it all meant, the mysteries were obviously what hooked me, that and the fact that it had a bit of everything: action, adventure, mystery, creepiness/horror, sci-fi etc.

I was really disappointed with the ending when it originally aired, but then I rewatched it all in 2015 and changed my mind and came to really like the ending. When you realise it's a show about the characters and not all of the extraneous mysteries and shite, it feels a lot more fitting and comforting in the ending.

I think at the end of the day, nobody who had invested in it for the mysteries (myself included) was ever really going to come away happy, as if it doesn't all fit in with the idea you've created in your head, it's going to be disappointing, and I think that aspect was the main part of the fun and enjoyment when it was originally on the telly. But in hindsight, and if you rewatch it for the characters, and just see the breadcrumbs/mysteries and stuff that were placed really early on as a nice 'oh, that's cool that I know what it means now!', it's a lot more enjoyable.

People let down by the ending should go back and give it another chance, it's well worth it in my opinion. I'm really surprised it's not been brought back or the IP has been used at all since it ended, considering Disney own it and it was massively popular and obviously made a lot of money from it. It's lain dormant for ten years now.

[QDRPHNC]

Personally, I didn't just watch it for the answers, but even if there is a larger mystery, narratively there has to be some payoff to something. When I think of Lost, I imagine it being written in some improv group. "There's a door in the ground. YES AND there's a man down there. YES AND he has a gun. YES AND..." etc, forever.

[DrGreggles]

I liked loads of the characters, so that was the draw for me.
Wasn't bothered about the lack of answers, as that was mostly sci-fi stuff.
"The island is magic." Fine by me - I don't need to know why it's magic.

[bgmnts]

I liked loads of the characters, so that was the draw for me.
Wasn't bothered about the lack of answers, as that was mostly sci-fi stuff.
"The island is magic." Fine by me - I don't need to know why it's magic.

I was told as a child in English creative writing class not to end things with 'it was all just a dream'

As a child.

[chveik]

I was told as a child in English creative writing class not to end things with 'it was all just a dream'

As a child.

so? that's not how Lost ends

[Ja'moke]

I was told as a child in English creative writing class not to end things with 'it was all just a dream'

As a child.

Good job that's not how Lost ends then.

[Famous Mortimer]

It's worse than "it was all a dream", quite an impressive feat.