Involuntarily Celibate rebranding

[bgmnts]

Regardless of what you call it, the concept of "involuntary celibacy" is gross, as if the person is entitled to sex, and everyone else is wrong for denying them. Why would anyone want to identify in such a creepy way?

It's not about entitlement. Nobody is entitled to anything.

[Johnny Yesno]

Imagine saying I'm involuntary hungry because Greggs won't give you a free pasty.

Surely, that would be an involuntary dieter.

Wasn't incel originally mean to denote that the person was not having sex but they didn't choose it? In contrast to those people who do choose it. It's nothing to do with entitlement. Just more of a flag to say 'Don't for one moment think I'd turn you down.'

The fact that it came to connote entitlement is where it all went wrong.

[TrenterPercenter]

It's not about entitlement. Nobody is entitled to anything.

Right so remove the involuntary part.

[Dr Rock]

The opposite of 'celibate' isn't 'has all the sex they want'

[bgmnts]

Right so remove the involuntary part.

Why?

It just means having no choice.

[Johnny Yesno]

Right so remove the involuntary part.

Why? If you didn't choose it, it's not voluntary. Nothing to do with entitlement.

Edit: jinx

[Kelvin]

It's not about entitlement. Nobody is entitled to anything.

No, but that's the implication of identifying as involuntarily celibate. It suggests that you are being wronged in some way.

[bgmnts]

No, but that's the implication of identifying as involuntarily celibate. It suggests that you are being wronged in some way, it's "involuntary".

Hence it needing a rebranding, to get away from that association. If involuntarily suggests being wronged then it needs a new term.

[TrenterPercenter]

Why? If you didn't choose it, it's not voluntary. Nothing to do with entitlement.

That isn't what voluntary means.  You could be involuntarily held hostage, or voluntarily held hostage, you can't be involuntarily held hostage but actually wanting to be held hostage.

[kalowski]

Don't single people have sex then?

Do married people have sex? I can't remember.

[Johnny Yesno]

Celibacy is voluntary. That's the point. It was originally a pious act. There's nothing wrong per se with pointing out that the reason you are celibate is not because you are pious or hate sex.

It's when you join a misogynistic cult of entitlement that the problem arises.

[touchingcloth]

Hence it needing a rebranding, to get away from that association. If involuntarily suggests being wronged then it needs a new term.

It doesn't need a rebranding. It's like, say, fascism in that there's not this one group of bad fascists over here who are giving the benign fascists over there a bad name and but for a small rebrand we'd understand that the good fascists actually had quite noble aims, actually.

[Johnny Yesno]

That isn't what voluntary means.  You could be involuntarily held hostage, or voluntarily held hostage, you can't be involuntarily held hostage but actually wanting to be held hostage.

What?

[bgmnts]

It doesn't need a rebranding. It's like, say, fascism in that there's not this one group of bad fascists over here who are giving the benign fascists over there a bad name and but for a small rebrand we'd understand that the good fascists actually had quite noble aims, actually.

But that's not what this is. That's a shared ideology, not a set of circumstances under which you live.

[TrenterPercenter]

But that's not what this is. That's a shared ideology, not a set of circumstances under which you live.

What is that you want from being able to label your lack of sex?

[curiousoranges]

There was a American dating series on Channel 4 called "Average Joe" about 15 years ago. "Normal" dateless men had to compete for a beauty queen.

[bgmnts]

What is that you want from being able to label your lack of sex?

Well it's not just the physical notion of sex, otherwise this wouldn't be an issue that's what sex work is for. It's about interpersonal relationships, self esteem, loneliness, low quality of life whatever you can think of. I think there needs to be an all encompassing term that includes the sexual aspect as it's still such a taboo issue and has these associations with it.

I think by confronting this and labelling it you can more easily fix it and have those support systems for it. And that would make lot's of people's lives better or at least more tolerable.

[Johnny Yesno]

What is that you want from being able to label your lack of sex?

A great big badge saying 'Hey ladies! Contrary to what you might think, I am actually ready, willing and available!'

[Zero Gravitas]

Okay, I'm switching from 'fun mode' to 'making notes in my spreadsheet mode' now.

[TrenterPercenter]

Well it's not just the physical notion of sex, otherwise this wouldn't be an issue that's what sex work is for. It's about interpersonal relationships, self esteem, loneliness, low quality of life whatever you can think of. I think there needs to be an all encompassing term that includes the sexual aspect as it's still such a taboo issue and has these associations with it.

I think by confronting this and labelling it you can more easily fix it and have those support systems for it. And that would make lot's of people's lives better or at least more tolerable.

And once you have this label what kind of things do you think could be done to fix it?

[bgmnts]

And once you have this label what kind of things do you think could be done to fix it?

I think a non judgmental support system is a good start, a group that all has similar issues that can share and that doesn't have to live with a stigma or be associated with troglodyte women haters. For a lot of people there is nothing to fix, or are unfixable, but just having something there is something.

[touchingcloth]

Well it's not just the physical notion of sex, otherwise this wouldn't be an issue that's what sex work is for. It's about interpersonal relationships, self esteem, loneliness, low quality of life whatever you can think of. I think there needs to be an all encompassing term that includes the sexual aspect as it's still such a taboo issue and has these associations with it.

I think by confronting this and labelling it you can more easily fix it and have those support systems for it. And that would make lot's of people's lives better or at least more tolerable.

"Single" works well enough, no?

If you ever get asked the question "hey, bgmnts, tell me, what's the current state of your interpersonal relationships, self esteem, loneliness, quality of life?" then it's likely that no single label will fit the bill because you can't answer that question without a conversation.

If someone asks more specifically what your relationship status is then "single" covers a lot of ground, while "incel" (or similar) takes things in a sexual direction they might not be particularly interested in.

If someone asks specifically about your level of sexual activity then you can say "none". I'm struggling to think of situations where someone would want you specifically to talk about both your current level of sexual activity AND the reasons behind it in a single word.

Most forms you'll ever fill in are structured around the above. If you're giving blood they ask you how many sexual partners you have had in the last year, not whether you're single, co-habiting, etc., and if you're applying for a grant or financial help of some kind they'll ask you the latter but not the former.

[touchingcloth]

What?

"If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands."

[TrenterPercenter]

I think a non judgmental support system is a good start, a group that all has similar issues that can share and that doesn't have to live with a stigma or be associated with troglodyte women haters. For a lot of people there is nothing to fix, or are unfixable, but just having something there is something.

Ok so let's imagine you have your label, you have your support group, how does the group support one another?

[bgmnts]

Ok so let's imagine you have your label, you have your support group, how does the group support one another?

However support groups usually support one another. I think just a sense of belonging and acceptance would be a start.

[checkoutgirl]

"Single".

Loser worked quite well for decades but it's got a derogatory flavour to it. Any word that will denote that you wish to have sex but somehow aren't will eventually have negative connotations. Like learning difficulties is nice and politically correct but already has negative uses in the wrong hands.

I like the word "between". I'm not single I'm between relationships. I'm not unemployed I'm between jobs. I'm not homeless I'm between homes. It's a bit 1980s but it's nice and gives people back their dignity.

[Johnny Yesno]

I like the word "between". I'm not single I'm between relationships. I'm not unemployed I'm between jobs. I'm not homeless I'm between homes. It's a bit 1980s but it's nice and gives people back their dignity.

Well, I'm a temporarily embarrassed millionaire and there's nothing undignified about me saying that.

[TrenterPercenter]

However support groups usually support one another. I think just a sense of belonging and acceptance would be a start.

What would a sense of belonging and acceptance look or sound like and what difference would it make to your life in regards to problems you outlined?

Also you mentioned that this was not about sex but intimacy do you think that a label looking at this in a positive sense i.e. something that is wanted would be preferable to something in a negative sense i.e. something that is missing?

[checkoutgirl]

But you might say that's leaving you open.

"I'm between relationships".

"Mate you've been between relationships for 9 years."


But that's their option. You've put the ball in their court. It's up to them whether they want to grab a racket and be a cunt about it. And in my experience plenty of people will be a cunt about it no matter what name you put on it. Loser, single, between relationships, involuntary whatever. Sometimes it doesn't matter what it's called if people are determined to be a shit.

[bgmnts]

What would a sense of belonging and acceptance look or sound like and what difference would it make to your life in regards to problems you outlined?

It likely wouldn't make a difference to my life, but it could help millions of others. What physical differene it would make beyond the general feeling of acceptance or happiness or whatever. A bit like mental health, we categorise and label and then try and find the support, we don't just label everyone as mental and let them get on with it right?

What it would look, sound, taste, feel or smell like I do not know.