Involuntarily Celibate rebranding

[willbo]

I was thinking the other day that "uncel" - for "unhappy" - would be a better term, at least it describes that the person is unhappy with the way they are without implying entitlement.

Personally, I think the whole incel concept is making things worse between young people - I think it's making nerdy, shy young men desperately try to get partners and force sex to happen, because if they don't they're incel - In my day if you weren't "getting laid", some cruel people might say you were just boring and a bit of a loser - now you're a potential mass murderer or terrorist.

Like cool young people are making this assumption that being single and lonely means you're far right. Ok the far right is snapping up lonely people but you've also get these young men who desperately want to be hip and cool - so they need to have sex.

I think the new, young left (IE on twitter etc, younger than most of us here) could do a lot more to stop spreading the "single = nazi loser" stigma, if they care about rape culture, to be honest.

[Johnny Yesno]

However support groups usually support one another. I think just a sense of belonging and acceptance would be a start.

Funnily enough, trite observations from people who aren't in your situation don't help much, do they?

During the lockdowns, single people were one of many groups forgotten by the government (and by many people who were in relationships, it seems). It's totally understandable that they would want to reach out to each other, particularly if they didn't choose to be single.

[checkoutgirl]

Do we need a term that's based on how much sex someone is or isn't having?

Yeah it's odd. What's next, a number stating how often you do it per week or for the highly sexed per day?

This is Steven, he's S5PW. Shagging 5 (times) Per Week.

Let's draw a line under it and call it "Footloose and Fancy Free". But is he shagging regularly? None of your business mate.

[MojoJojo]

What would a sense of belonging and acceptance look or sound like and what difference would it make to your life in regards to problems you outlined?

Also you mentioned that this was not about sex but intimacy do you think that a label looking at this in a positive sense i.e. something that is wanted would be preferable to something in a negative sense i.e. something that is missing?

I think such a group could have value- society puts a lot of status on being in a relationship, and I think that's really what's behind a lot of the anger in incel groups, rather than just not getting to have sex. They feel labelled as failures by what is largely a luck based characteristic. A group which provided support and emphasised that being in a relationship does not define your worth could be a good thing.

I'm not sure how you can communicate that well though.

[Johnny Yesno]

Temporarily embarrassed lothario

[willbo]

It doesn't need a rebranding. It's like, say, fascism in that there's not this one group of bad fascists over here who are giving the benign fascists over there a bad name and but for a small rebrand we'd understand that the good fascists actually had quite noble aims, actually.

you probably don't know this but there's a type of fascist called communist who are actually really good

[checkoutgirl]

Well, I'm a temporarily embarrassed millionaire

They already have a word for that "Republican".

[touchingcloth]

But you might say that's leaving you open.

"I'm between relationships".

"Mate you've been between relationships for 9 years."


But that's their option. You've put the ball in their court. It's up to them whether they want to grab a racket and be a cunt about it. And in my experience plenty of people will be a cunt about it no matter what name you put on it. Loser, single, between relationships, involuntary whatever. Sometimes it doesn't matter what it's called if people are determined to be a shit.

When my grandad was born in 1926, the first words out of his mouth were "it's great to be born between the wars".

[TrenterPercenter]

It likely wouldn't make a difference to my life, but it could help millions of others. What physical differene it would make beyond the general feeling of acceptance or happiness or whatever.

How would feelings of acceptance and happiness help millions of others? What might they then be able to do, now they feel accepted and happy, that they could not do before?

A bit like mental health, we categorise and label and then try and find the support, we don't just label everyone as mental and let them get on with it right?

A dominate approach in mental health has been to observe and classify in mental health, it is highly problematic.  More and more we are working towards not doing this, looking at mental health not as a loss (indeed the original declaration on mental health by the WHO in 1948 was one that specifically said "mental health is not simply the absence of illness") but as something we have and sustain like physical health.

We do label everyone as "mental" and it does great harm to them, most people right now labelled as "mental" are not receiving any treatment and yes are being "left to get on with it".

[Dr Rock]

How would feelings of acceptance and happiness help millions of others? What might they then be able to do, now they feel accepted and happy, that they could not do before?

Simply describe their situation without being lumped in with women-hating incels?

[TrenterPercenter]

Simply describe their situation without being lumped in with women-hating incels?

They cannot do this now? What is their situation?

[shoulders]

I was thinking today do we perhaps need a new term for people who are chronically, involuntarily celibate by definition and lifestyle but do not subscribe to any ideology or part of any group.

I was thinking enforced celibacy or involuntarily sexless but they have their own multiple meanings.

The incel movement started with a woman right? It only became subsumed by weirdo men after a while. I don't see why there can't be a support system for men, women and everyone in between who struggle without it descending into hateful misogyny.

Would this actually work? And what new term could be applied to this?

Celibacy by definition implies abstinence on the part of the celibate so an involuntary celibate/incel has always been oxymoronic/or a contradiction in terms, as I understand it.

Sexless seems an improvement as that starts from a position of lacking.

But then a lot of the time these people aren't seeking sex so much as intimacy and affection, that's the awful fact. Not even sure that needs a term other than unhappy.

I could personally go without sex for years (and have done) but if someone removed the possibility to ever receive affection I'd eventually kill myself.

[Johnny Yesno]

Simply describe their situation without being lumped in with women-hating incels?

But Trenter is against support networks now.

[Dr Rock]

They cannot do this now? What is their situation?

Never mind.

[TrenterPercenter]

I think such a group could have value- society puts a lot of status on being in a relationship, and I think that's really what's behind a lot of the anger in incel groups, rather than just not getting to have sex. They feel labelled as failures by what is largely a luck based characteristic. A group which provided support and emphasised that being in a relationship does not define your worth could be a good thing.

I'm not sure how you can communicate that well though.

So what you are describing here is the expectation to conform to social norms (don't even bother VGF2K) this is different, this is saying "I want to be alone but society won't let me do this", that is not saying "I want to have a relationship but society won't let me".

There is something to add here regarding the "luck based characteristic" but could you expand here on what you mean?

[checkoutgirl]

Sexless seems an improvement

I can't think of a worse word to call a human being.

[Johnny Yesno]

I can't think of a worse word to call a human being.

'shoulders'?

[shoulders]

I can't think of a worse word to call a human being.

Going with that one then, yeah?

Point of my post is not to define people's unhappiness on this issue as being all about sexual intercourse.

[TrenterPercenter]

But Trenter is against support networks now.

What on earth gave you that impression?  I think support networks are great thanks.

I'm also very empathetic to the Incel community and if you go back to some of our previous discussions around this you'll find me being accused of siding with "women hating incels" and being called a misogynist by various other posters for that empathy.

I don't think involuntary celibate is a useful term, I think it is harmful, to the men (or women) who inhabit it, and harmful (as has been proved sadly on occasion) to women (or men).

[touchingcloth]

They cannot do this now? What is their situation?

I get that there is currently only one widely-understood word which means that someone is:

1) not currently sexually active

2) not happy with that fact

I get that that word is "incel" and that it carries with it connotations of misogyny.

I kind of feel like the problem isn't so much the word, as it is with wanting to wear both 1) and 2) on your sleeve. As others have said, a lack of sex is often used as a proxy for other things like a long term relationship and all of the things that go with that, and if someone were to describe themselves as "unhappily sexless" rather than "unhappily single" then it's hard to see how the word "incel" with all of its unsavoury connotations wouldn't fit them pretty well.

The problem with incels isn't that they're not having sex, it's that they focus primarily on sex.

[TrenterPercenter]

I get that there is currently only one widely-understood word which means that someone is:

1) not currently sexually active

2) not happy with that fact

I get that that word is "incel" and that it carries with it connotations of misogyny.

I kind of feel like the problem isn't so much the word, as it is with wanting to wear both 1) and 2) on your sleeve. As others have said, a lack of sex is often used as a proxy for other things like a long term relationship and all of the things that go with that, and if someone were to describe themselves as "unhappily sexless" rather than "unhappily single" then it's hard to see how the word "incel" with all of its unsavoury connotations wouldn't fit them pretty well.

The problem with incels isn't that they're not having sex, it's that they focus primarily on sex.

I agree, in as much that any new set of words that presents the same mindset to the problem ends back to same issues as before.

[Johnny Yesno]

The problem with incels isn't that they're not having sex, it's that they focus primarily on sex.

Which makes them unique in our society, of course.

[Johnny Yesno]

What on earth gave you that impression?  I think support networks are great thanks.

I'm also very empathetic to the Incel community and if you go back to some of our previous discussions around this you'll find me being accused of siding with "women hating incels" and being called a misogynist by various other posters for that empathy.

I don't think involuntary celibate is a useful term, I think it is harmful, to the men (or women) who inhabit it, and harmful (as has been proved sadly on occasion) to women (or men).

Why are you questioning bgmnts's idea for support networks, then?

[Johnny Yesno]

'shoulders'?

Oh, go on, then:    ;-p ;-p ;-p

[Stigdu]

I'll tell you what - joining this forum has taught me tons of new words and acronyms. TERFS, GC, BAMO and now INCEL. It may get a bit sweary in here, but it's quite educational!

[touchingcloth]

I'll tell you what - joining this forum has taught me tons of new words and acronyms. TERFS, GC, BAMO and now INCEL. It may get a bit sweary in here, but it's quite educational!

IKR. S4C. IBJB

[Mr. Ssmsslth]

The term Absolute Beginners already exists, I think.

[MojoJojo]

So what you are describing here is the expectation to conform to social norms (don't even bother VGF2K) this is different, this is saying "I want to be alone but society won't let me do this", that is not saying "I want to have a relationship but society won't let me".

No it's saying "I want to be in a relationship but can't. But I am still a worthwhile person and should respect myself despite this".

There is something to add here regarding the "luck based characteristic" but could you expand here on what you mean?

I just mean whether you are in a relationship or not is largely luck. Yes, there are things you can do to improve your chances, but you might just never meet the right person or have a physical problem prevent a relationship. And it creates anger when you then feel that you are looked down on for something out of your control.

[TrenterPercenter]

Why are you questioning bgmnts's idea for support networks, then?

I'm not.

[touchingcloth]

I'm not.

I interpreted it as you asking why support networks in particular were the means to achieving bgmnts's ends (and, ultimately, for him to be more clear about what those ends actually are).

I'm pretty sure that's what you were doing, rather than questioning the usefulness of support networks in general.