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Involuntarily Celibate rebranding

Started by bgmnts, June 30, 2022, 11:09:25 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Sebastian Cobb

"Hi, my name's Sebastian and I am a Fleshlight owner"

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: touchingcloth on June 30, 2022, 01:56:02 PMI interpreted it as you asking why support networks in particular were the means to achieving bgmnts's ends (and, ultimately, for him to be more clear about what those ends actually are).

I'm pretty sure that's what you were doing, rather than questioning the usefulness of support networks in general.

Thank you TC. Yes I was actually trying to get bgmnts to be more active in the solutions to his problems, as imagining the solutions is a large part of creating them.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: MojoJojo on June 30, 2022, 01:50:16 PMNo it's saying "I want to be in a relationship but can't. But I am still a worthwhile person and should respect myself despite this".

Right, I think the fact they want to be in a relationship is important here, and is directly related the impact of their expectation to be in a relationship.

QuoteI just mean whether you are in a relationship or not is largely luck. Yes, there are things you can do to improve your chances, but you might just never meet the right person or have a physical problem prevent a relationship. And it creates anger when you then feel that you are looked down on for something out of your control.

People with serious disabilities as such that it would prevent them from having a relationship are generally not looked down on for not being in a relationship, they generally ignored and assumed to not be sexual beings (this is to do with social norms around sex and relationships that are discriminatory to disabled populations).

All life is about a certain amount of luck.  Though I do agree there are elements of being that increase the chances of finding a relationship.  I think one thing that would improve the emotional wellbeing of men (and therefore the society around them) is for social norms on relationships to be more equal and based less on traditional ideas of male and female roles (this is very heterocisnormative because this is the group we are talking about here), one of which is men always being expected to approach women for relationships, this is embedded in our media and is a massive blindspot for modern waves of feminism.  Men then internalise this as a responsibility and something they need to achieve, men go on the pull, women go to get pulled.

I know the more enlightened of us (men and women of CaB) don't view things this way, but that is the society we live in and it is embedded in our media and way of life.  It's wrong, and it takes all people to change it, but there are massive incentives for lots of men and women to maintain it (so they do).

The results are on one hand incels, and on the other lots of women that are simply ignored and made to feel they are not worthy of love and companionship either.  Men, of course being men, have started evolving horrid ways of externalising these problems whilst women tend to internalise and not take their problems out on the world around them.

And that is where we are.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: willbo on June 30, 2022, 01:00:48 PMI was thinking the other day that "uncel" - for "unhappy" - would be a better term, at least it describes that the person is unhappy with the way they are without implying entitlement.


That is really good Wilbo! The problem is however it is too close to incel so would be tainted by association now.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: shoulders on June 30, 2022, 01:27:24 PMCelibacy by definition implies abstinence on the part of the celibate so an involuntary celibate/incel has always been oxymoronic/or a contradiction in terms, as I understand it.

Exactly this, and a better/clearer way of saying what I was saying.

jamiefairlie

I just assume that everyone has periods when they're truly single (no intimacy at all, not just sex). What is the point of labeling that state? It seems like it's just part of the mania to categorize everything and everyone, I just don't get it. I've spent my entire life reacting forcefully against any attempt to label me as any one thing, I think it has a limiting and disempowering affect and stops an individual from taking accountability for their own holistic behaviours in a 'it's not my fault it's because I'm <list of metadata tags that define me>, don't hold me to account, pity me'

jamiefairlie

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on June 30, 2022, 02:19:02 PMRight, I think the fact they want to be in a relationship is important here, and is directly related the impact of their expectation to be in a relationship.

People with serious disabilities as such that it would prevent them from having a relationship are generally not looked down on for not being in a relationship, they generally ignored and assumed to not be sexual beings (this is to do with social norms around sex and relationships that are discriminatory to disabled populations).

All life is about a certain amount of luck.  Though I do agree there are elements of being that increase the chances of finding a relationship.  I think one thing that would improve the emotional wellbeing of men (and therefore the society around them) is for social norms on relationships to be more equal and based less on traditional ideas of male and female roles (this is very heterocisnormative because this is the group we are talking about here), one of which is men always being expected to approach women for relationships, this is embedded in our media and is a massive blindspot for modern waves of feminism.  Men then internalise this as a responsibility and something they need to achieve, men go on the pull, women go to get pulled.

I know the more enlightened of us (men and women of CaB) don't view things this way, but that is the society we live in and it is embedded in our media and way of life.  It's wrong, and it takes all people to change it, but there are massive incentives for lots of men and women to maintain it (so they do).

The results are on one hand incels, and on the other lots of women that are simply ignored and made to feel they are not worthy of love and companionship either.  Men, of course being men, have started evolving horrid ways of externalising these problems whilst women tend to internalise and not take their problems out on the world around them.

And that is where we are.

"The results are on one hand incels"

Snigger

TrenterPercenter

#97
Quote from: jamiefairlie on June 30, 2022, 02:40:32 PMI just assume that everyone has periods when they're truly single (no intimacy at all, not just sex). What is the point of labeling that state? It seems like it's just part of the mania to categorize everything and everyone, I just don't get it. I've spent my entire life reacting forcefully against any attempt to label me as any one thing, I think it has a limiting and disempowering affect and stops an individual from taking accountability for their own holistic behaviours in a 'it's not my fault it's because I'm <list of metadata tags that define me>, don't hold me to account, pity me'

It is interesting isn't it.  Labelling and categorising often has the impression of knowing and controlling yet labels can excuse, disempower, remove and provide access.  In the sense here bgnmts sees a collective benefit but there are nearly always consequences as well.  Labels at some level are necessary but they are to be handled with care, by those that are given power to wield them over others and those that would trick themselves into the convenience of their own labels.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on June 30, 2022, 02:08:30 PMThank you TC. Yes I was actually trying to get bgmnts to be more active in the solutions to his problems, as imagining the solutions is a large part of creating them.

Ok. I don't think that came across as your intent but never mind.

Isn't the whole point of identifying an issue and communicating with people in the same situation as you the first step in creating a solution?

Or maybe people just want to have a moan about aspects of life with other people who know what it's like.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: jamiefairlie on June 30, 2022, 02:40:32 PMI just assume that everyone has periods when they're truly single (no intimacy at all, not just sex). What is the point of labeling that state? It seems like it's just part of the mania to categorize everything and everyone, I just don't get it. I've spent my entire life reacting forcefully against any attempt to label me as any one thing, I think it has a limiting and disempowering affect and stops an individual from taking accountability for their own holistic behaviours in a 'it's not my fault it's because I'm <list of metadata tags that define me>, don't hold me to account, pity me'

So, do you think all support groups are a waste of time? If not, what makes some groups valid and others not?

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on June 30, 2022, 03:37:58 PMOk. I don't think that came across as your intent but never mind.

The thing is, I know my intentions and I'm also in no way troubled by telling you them Johnny.  Take it from me I was trying to help bgmnts.  If you want to actually look up the technique it is called brief solution focused therapy - you use it commonly with people that have sustained loss. 

I'll remind you that in my career I've worked with people that have lost everything, and when I say everything, I mean their legs, their arms, their faces, their vision, large percentages of their brains and a whole manner of other things.  Some of the most incredible people you could ever hope to meet working through their losses and not simply being victim to it.  I'll also remind you that a lot of these life altering losses occurred out of the blue without any warning, so life is precious, when you've only got 40% of your brain working as it should life becomes even moreso precious and the battle is about how to still function and get the most out of what remains.  Remember this.

QuoteIsn't the whole point of identifying an issue and communicating with people in the same situation as you the first step in creating a solution?

Not always, depends what the problem is, some problems can be resolved intrapersonally with information, some with the input of one person, others in groups - different tools for different jobs.  Communicating with other people with the same experience can be useful but it can also promote unhealthy mindsets and behaviours.  Incel culture is a good example of this, two men with the same experience of not having a relationship, one blames women, the other doesn't, their experience however might be the same, how they deal with it might influence each other.  This is how cults and damaging movements grow, I came here because these people had the same experiences as me and now I realise it is all women and brown peoples fault.

The type of group, why and how it exists and the culture that resides in it are all very important things, not everything is down too commonality of experience.

bgmnts

This isn't about me, or even about singledom or relationships. There are plenty of people who okay may have blundered into a relationship but derive no self worth or sexual and emotional fulfilment from it.

The goal isn't relationship in the conventional monogamous sense, that's seems to me to be an old fashioned way of looking at things.

willbo

r/menslib on Reddit is a good sub/page for allowing incels and incel-ish men to talk about their problems from a left leaning point of view

jamiefairlie

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on June 30, 2022, 03:39:36 PMSo, do you think all support groups are a waste of time? If not, what makes some groups valid and others not?

To be perfectly honest, I have been part of five different such groups in my younger days and found all of them to be dispiriting, disempowering and depressing. Now that's just my personal experience and my own unique personality but I've heard similar tales from friends.

Somewhat like how older people tend to do better when surrounded by younger people and encouraged not be labeled as old and infirm, I've found that acknowledging my own circumstances is useful but not being defined by them is essential to my well being.

MojoJojo

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on June 30, 2022, 02:19:02 PMRight, I think the fact they want to be in a relationship is important here, and is directly related the impact of their expectation to be in a relationship.

People with serious disabilities as such that it would prevent them from having a relationship are generally not looked down on for not being in a relationship, they generally ignored and assumed to not be sexual beings (this is to do with social norms around sex and relationships that are discriminatory to disabled populations).

When I talk about society putting a lot of value on relationships, I'm not talking about people actively judging people for being single. I'm talking about all our stories and media focussing on partnering up. Fairy tales and onwards we're taught that finding your Prince or Princess is the most important thing. Almost all TV fiction has at least one love story going on (most of the exceptions off the top of my head are British sitcoms). You don't need your Mum asking when you're going to find a nice girl to settle down with to know that establishing a romantic relationship is the most important thing in society's eyes. It's internalised before puberty.

I don't think incels do feel "entitled" to a relationship exactly. I'd compare it to buying house in the UK - I don't think many people feel they are entitled to a house, but they do think there should be away for them to buy one, and are angry that buying a house is essentially impossible without an inheritance or some other luck. Incels see relationships in the same way - it doesn't matter what they do, the system is broken and it's essentially impossible unless you're a chad. That's the comforting lie the incel community draws people in with - it's not you, it's the system is fucked.

QuoteAll life is about a certain amount of luck.  Though I do agree there are elements of being that increase the chances of finding a relationship.  I think one thing that would improve the emotional wellbeing of men (and therefore the society around them) is for social norms on relationships to be more equal and based less on traditional ideas of male and female roles (this is very heterocisnormative because this is the group we are talking about here), one of which is men always being expected to approach women for relationships, this is embedded in our media and is a massive blindspot for modern waves of feminism.  Men then internalise this as a responsibility and something they need to achieve, men go on the pull, women go to get pulled.
I'm bit reluctant to talk about women's experience with it, as I'm not one, but I think the pressure to be in a relationship is even worse for them. It certainly has been historically - old maid's and so forth - and media for women is even more focussed on romance. I just think it would be better for both genders if less emphasis was placed on pairing up, and we had a few more Happily ever afters that didn't involve getting married.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: bgmnts on June 30, 2022, 04:09:50 PMThis isn't about me, or even about singledom or relationships. There are plenty of people who okay may have blundered into a relationship but derive no self worth or sexual and emotional fulfilment from it.

The goal isn't relationship in the conventional monogamous sense, that's seems to me to be an old fashioned way of looking at things.

So it's not to do with relationships or being single.  Then what has it got to do with incels. Why are incels exclusive in wanting emotional and sexual fulfilment what is the group you are trying to relabel then?

bgmnts

There is a spectrum of human relationships from friendship through to casual sex through to casual relationship through to serious relationship through to marriage.

There are people who struggle with all these and there are people who are in serious relationships or marriages who are sexually and emotionally unfulfilled.

Just saying it's not as easy as relationship = good. It's not necessarily the goal.

jamiefairlie

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on June 30, 2022, 04:01:19 PMThe thing is, I know my intentions and I'm also in no way troubled by telling you them Johnny.  Take it from me I was trying to help bgmnts.  If you want to actually look up the technique it is called brief solution focused therapy - you use it commonly with people that have sustained loss. 

I'll remind you that in my career I've worked with people that have lost everything, and when I say everything, I mean their legs, their arms, their faces, their vision, large percentages of their brains and a whole manner of other things.  Some of the most incredible people you could ever hope to meet working through their losses and not simply being victim to it.  I'll also remind you that a lot of these life altering losses occurred out of the blue without any warning, so life is precious, when you've only got 40% of your brain working as it should life becomes even moreso precious and the battle is about how to still function and get the most out of what remains.  Remember this.

Not always, depends what the problem is, some problems can be resolved intrapersonally with information, some with the input of one person, others in groups - different tools for different jobs.  Communicating with other people with the same experience can be useful but it can also promote unhealthy mindsets and behaviours.  Incel culture is a good example of this, two men with the same experience of not having a relationship, one blames women, the other doesn't, their experience however might be the same, how they deal with it might influence each other.  This is how cults and damaging movements grow, I came here because these people had the same experiences as me and now I realise it is all women and brown peoples fault.

The type of group, why and how it exists and the culture that resides in it are all very important things, not everything is down too commonality of experience.

It's really important to focus on what you do have rather than what you don't. That's what git my parents through the most horrendous of childhood traumas and made them fantastic parents and wonderful human beings. It's not about being a Pollyanna, you pragmatically acknowledge your circumstances but you don't dwell on them and let them define you, you harness what you do have and optimize what you can based on your options.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: jamiefairlie on June 30, 2022, 04:21:38 PMIt's really important to focus on what you do have rather than what you don't. That's what git my parents through the most horrendous of childhood traumas and made them fantastic parents and wonderful human beings. It's not about being a Pollyanna, you pragmatically acknowledge your circumstances but you don't dwell on them and let them define you, you harness what you do have and optimize what you can based on your options.

100% this.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: bgmnts on June 30, 2022, 04:21:04 PMThere is a spectrum of human relationships from friendship through to casual sex through to casual relationship through to serious relationship through to marriage.

There are people who struggle with all these and there are people who are in serious relationships or marriages who are sexually and emotionally unfulfilled.

Just saying it's not as easy as relationship = good. It's not necessarily the goal.

You started the thread to relabel incel so that it would not contain the rampant misogyny, you now talking about all people that might not be emotionally or sexually fulfilled.

I don't think incel is a good starting place you are just talking about people.  Is the defining membership of the group people that are not emotionally and sexually fulfilled then?  I think this exists it's called most of the society.

somersetchris

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on June 30, 2022, 01:36:35 PMWhat on earth gave you that impression?  I think support networks are great thanks.



By the tone of your posts you seem very against it. You seem so against people in a difficult life situation that they might like some kind of support for, that you don't even want them to have a word to describe it. Look at the level of interrogating you have been doing to people who are just suggesting that a degree of support for people not in relationships might be nice.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: somersetchris on June 30, 2022, 04:50:37 PMBy the tone of your posts you seem very against it. You seem so against people in a difficult life situation that they might like some kind of support for, that you don't even want them to have a word to describe it. Look at the level of interrogating you have been doing to people who are just suggesting that a degree of support for people not in relationships might be nice.

Sorry could quote the posts please so we can discuss them? I think this is an incredibly strange take, but we can go through the posts if you feel so strongly about it.

touchingcloth

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on June 30, 2022, 04:01:19 PMI'll remind you that in my career I've worked with people that have lost everything, and when I say everything, I mean their legs, their arms, their faces, their vision, large percentages of their brains and a whole manner of other things. 

It sounds a lot like Metallica's One, where Cliff Burton lost his whole bassline.

TrenterPercenter

Oof I wouldn't want to be Cliff Burton right now

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: jamiefairlie on June 30, 2022, 04:16:37 PMTo be perfectly honest, I have been part of five different such groups in my younger days and found all of them to be dispiriting, disempowering and depressing. Now that's just my personal experience and my own unique personality but I've heard similar tales from friends.

Somewhat like how older people tend to do better when surrounded by younger people and encouraged not be labeled as old and infirm, I've found that acknowledging my own circumstances is useful but not being defined by them is essential to my well being.

That's fair enough. On the other hand, I got more out of talking to other single people (in those periods when it was possible) during the pandemic because people in relationships simply didn't get just how oppressive the isolation was.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on June 30, 2022, 04:56:58 PMSorry could quote the posts please so we can discuss them? I think this is an incredibly strange take, but we can go through the posts if you feel so strongly about it.

I'm not going to go back and do elaborate cut-and-pastes but bear in mind that three of us made the same mistake regarding your intent.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: MojoJojo on June 30, 2022, 04:17:20 PMWhen I talk about society putting a lot of value on relationships, I'm not talking about people actively judging people for being single. I'm talking about all our stories and media focussing on partnering up. Fairy tales and onwards we're taught that finding your Prince or Princess is the most important thing. Almost all TV fiction has at least one love story going on (most of the exceptions off the top of my head are British sitcoms). You don't need your Mum asking when you're going to find a nice girl to settle down with to know that establishing a romantic relationship is the most important thing in society's eyes. It's internalised before puberty.

I don't think incels do feel "entitled" to a relationship exactly. I'd compare it to buying house in the UK - I don't think many people feel they are entitled to a house, but they do think there should be away for them to buy one, and are angry that buying a house is essentially impossible without an inheritance or some other luck. Incels see relationships in the same way - it doesn't matter what they do, the system is broken and it's essentially impossible unless you're a chad. That's the comforting lie the incel community draws people in with - it's not you, it's the system is fucked.

I'm bit reluctant to talk about women's experience with it, as I'm not one, but I think the pressure to be in a relationship is even worse for them. It certainly has been historically - old maid's and so forth - and media for women is even more focussed on romance. I just think it would be better for both genders if less emphasis was placed on pairing up, and we had a few more Happily ever afters that didn't involve getting married.

Agreed. I don't think I'd seriously entertain the notion of a 're-branding' as suggested in the OP but there are a lot of lonely people out there who I hope won't get more and more bitter as they get older.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on June 30, 2022, 05:25:44 PMI'm not going to go back and do elaborate cut-and-pastes but bear in mind that three of us made the same mistake regarding your intent.

Yes three of you (I presume you are just shoe horning bgmnts in here) made the same mistake.  Perhaps there is a reason for that other than me intending to deny people group support (wtf?!).

Don't worry your little fingers though I'll cut and paste some of the examples of the level of interrogation.

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on June 30, 2022, 12:32:02 PMWhat is that you want from being able to label your lack of sex?

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on June 30, 2022, 12:39:27 PMAnd once you have this label what kind of things do you think could be done to fix it?

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on June 30, 2022, 12:45:10 PMOk so let's imagine you have your label, you have your support group, how does the group support one another?

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on June 30, 2022, 12:54:24 PMWhat would a sense of belonging and acceptance look or sound like and what difference would it make to your life in regards to problems you outlined?

You've chosen to see this as negative, the "tone" is all in your head, try reading it and imagining someone trying to be nice and help and see whether the words seem out of place.


TrenterPercenter

Quote from: MojoJojo on June 30, 2022, 04:17:20 PMYou don't need your Mum asking when you're going to find a nice girl to settle down with to know that establishing a romantic relationship is the most important thing in society's eyes.

We are biological animals that in most cases have strong drives for companionship and sex.  Sex is a drive, like hunger and we have evolved specialised organs and erroneous zones to support and promote sex intercourse.  There are societal pressures and that warp and influence how we think about this but it isn't created entirely by society.  How it is reflected and delivered to us is what I think is important.

QuoteIncels see relationships in the same way - it doesn't matter what they do, the system is broken and it's essentially impossible unless you're a chad. That's the comforting lie the incel community draws people in with - it's not you, it's the system is fucked.

I think you are absolutely on the money here and often considerations of "what the system" should be is usually an appalling misogynistic view.  The trick is of course as you have rightly identified is that people can create a highly convenient lie for themselves, it's not me, it's the system, I'm not doing anything wrong it is being denied to me.  Being active in your problems is solving them, but it costs effort and energy, which if someone is not willing to commit this then this leads to a depressive spiral which compounds things.  Incels portray a mind that only they are uniquely deficient to opposite sex that there are no women that are deemed undesirable (by societal norms), when there are, they are just ignored.  Misogyny and porn really come into play here as I pointed out before as porn is specifically engineered to create a false sense of engagement in the viewer, that is what 90% of heterosexual porn is, women having sex with other men whilst looking at the viewer (to give the viewer the idea that this is personally for them, that they could be the person having sex with them). Incels consume a lot of this to cater for they sexual desires, because it is easy, accessible and free.  Hence they build an expectation about the world around them.

I'm not saying this is exactly what happens is every case but in a lot of cases.


QuoteI'm bit reluctant to talk about women's experience with it, as I'm not one, but I think the pressure to be in a relationship is even worse for them. It certainly has been historically - old maid's and so forth - and media for women is even more focussed on romance. I just think it would be better for both genders if less emphasis was placed on pairing up, and we had a few more Happily ever afters that didn't involve getting married.

What you said at the beginning of this post is pertinent because it is about gender roles, women, if unmarried, are considered to be something a man wouldn't want (or atleast commit too) for men it is to be unable to obtain a woman.  Traditional gender roles mean that a man wins a woman's heart and she allows him to marry her, he proposes, she says yes, there is an order and structure to all of this that hold consequences for gender roles and with that expectations for individuals in society.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on June 30, 2022, 05:41:58 PMYou've chosen to see this as negative

I didn't choose to read it any particular way. Never mind. You always nail the tone you're aiming for and everyone else simply isn't reading what you write properly. Got it.

Quoteerroneous zones

Genuine lol at this, though.