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March 29, 2024, 12:51:34 AM

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Starmer VIII: Labour will set you free

Started by pancreas, March 16, 2022, 08:54:56 AM

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Quote from: shoulders on August 04, 2022, 07:38:55 PMLove how this is pitched at 'the razing to the ground of major cities and the displacement of 10 million people might be ok actually'.

Have we just experienced peak centrism?

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion from my reply, cleary it's not ok.

Buelligan

So what is OK?  What is the perfect approach.  Speaking as a grown up?

shoulders

Quote from: Buelligan on August 04, 2022, 07:41:34 PMSo what is OK?  What is the perfect approach.  Speaking as a grown up?

N.b - This was also fine for centrists in Syria because 'we can't just let Assad get away with it'. And it seems to be fine riling China over Taiwan because 'they can't just get away with it'.

This is the point I'm
Quote from: Buelligan on August 04, 2022, 07:41:34 PMSo what is OK?  What is the perfect approach.  Speaking as a grown up?

I wouldn't call myself a grown up by any stretch! 

But that's kind of the point isn't it?  There is no perfect approach to something as awful as this?


shoulders

'Global diplomacy is confined by the limits of my personal knowledge and imagination'

king_tubby

https://twitter.com/craigymeighan/status/1555267390820306946

QuoteKeir Starmer has been found to have breached the MPs' code of conduct by failing to register on time eight interests, including gifts from football teams and the sale of a plot of land

Buelligan

Hopefully, they'll get rid and choose someone sensible, electable, like lovely Wes Streeting, the Peoples' Friend.

Quote from: Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle on August 04, 2022, 08:02:24 PMThis is the point I'm
I wouldn't call myself a grown up by any stretch! 

But that's kind of the point isn't it?  There is no perfect approach to something as awful as this?



You were the one that, unasked, offered this -

Quote from: Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle on August 04, 2022, 07:35:01 PMDo you think leaving the Ukraine to it and asking Putin nicely to stop his invasion of a sovereign country is also pure sensible politics?

from which I deduced, perhaps wrongly, that you believe diplomacy is not sensible politics.  That, possibly, and I admit, I just imagine this, you believe that people like Corbyn, who support diplomatic solutions are naive, not sensible and that you are.

By all means feel entirely at liberty to tell me I am wrong.

Blumf

Quote from: shoulders on August 04, 2022, 06:21:59 PMhttps://futureweneed.com/preference/

For those eligible to vote in Labour's internal elections this gives a guide as to which order of preference helps the Left slate get elected.

Also, this, which seems to match up but lists a fifth candidate:
https://www.clpd.org.uk/resource/how-should-i-vote/

And it seems that's because Momentum won't support JVL's Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi, for some reason:
https://twitter.com/toryfibs/status/1550084861796417537

Fucks sake!

KennyMonster

Quote from: Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle on August 04, 2022, 08:02:24 PMI wouldn't call myself a grown up by any stretch! 


Well be careful not to harass yourself on twitter then!


Johnny Yesno



Quote from: Buelligan on August 04, 2022, 08:19:59 PMHopefully, they'll get rid and choose someone sensible, electable, like lovely Wes Streeting, the Peoples' Friend.

You were the one that, unasked, offered this -

from which I deduced, perhaps wrongly, that you believe diplomacy is not sensible politics.  That, possibly, and I admit, I just imagine this, you believe that people like Corbyn, who support diplomatic solutions are naive, not sensible and that you are.

By all means feel entirely at liberty to tell me I am wrong.

I don't think that diplomatic solutions are in themselves naive, but the thinking that everything can be solved by diplomatic solutions alone is naive. Feel free to tell im wrong here, but not everything can, right?

Blumf

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on August 04, 2022, 08:52:37 PMThe reason is given here: https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/statement/on-conducting-a-united-left-nec-campaign/

Sigh, identity politics being used as an excuse to divide.

I'll be sticking to the full five, Momentum needs to get a grip.

Buelligan

Quote from: Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle on August 04, 2022, 09:16:01 PMI don't think that diplomatic solutions are in themselves naive, but the thinking that everything can be solved by diplomatic solutions alone is naive. Feel free to tell im wrong here, but not everything can, right?

Sorry for ignoring you.  I was just negotiating the loan of a drone to shoot everyone in your street.

How do you feel about diplomacy now?

Quote from: Buelligan on August 04, 2022, 09:40:20 PMSorry for ignoring you.  I was just negotiating the loan of a drone to shoot everyone in your street.

How do you feel about diplomacy now?

The same as I did before your non reply tbh.

Buelligan

It's not a non reply.  I'm pointing out it's very easy to bang the drums for war and death when it's not you in the firing line. 

Quote from: Buelligan on August 04, 2022, 09:58:43 PMIt's not a non reply.  I'm pointing out it's very easy to bang the drums for war and death when it's not you in the firing line. 

I'm not banging the drums for war or death, im saying that unforuntaly you can't always rely on a purely diplomatic solution when dealing with a tyrant.  Do you disagree with this statement?

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle on August 04, 2022, 10:02:30 PMI'm not banging the drums for war or death, im saying that unforuntaly you can't always rely on a purely diplomatic solution when dealing with a tyrant.  Do you disagree with this statement?

Why are you asking this stupid question?

Buelligan


idunnosomename

the genuine alcoholic and racist cunt coyle still kicking about with labour member's data even though he's supposed to be suspended.
https://labourlist.org/2022/08/exclusive-suspended-labour-mp-messages-members-about-reselection/

For Heaven's sake Sir Keir, I'm a huge fan, but get a grip of your party! It's a laughably factional orgy!

imitationleather

Someone just told me they think The Ian Duncan Smiths is Josh Widdecombe.

It does really sound like him, doesn't it?


shoulders

QuoteJoint statement from 13 left groups on why to vote

 

For a Labour NEC that Supports Labour Values.

 

The Labour leadership is abandoning socialist Labour values

Millions are suffering from the Tories' attacks on people's living standards. Those who are fighting back deserve the Labour Party's wholehearted support.

 

Solidarity proscribed

Sadly, instead of the party standing shoulder-to-shoulder with the trade unions struggling to defend their members, Labour MPs have been told not to show solidarity. Tory MPs are pushing for job losses, real pay cuts, and draconian restrictions on industrial action. In response the Labour leadership expects our Labour MPs to stand aside and not oppose these Tory attacks.

 

Public ownership rejected

The Labour leadership is retreating from the party's commitments to bring water and energy back into public ownership. Re-nationalisation would of course improve these services, reduce people's bills, and be a popular policy with voters. Key figures on Labour's front bench are even now pushing for the party to abandon its commitment to rail re-nationalisation.

 

The NEC should be promoting labour values

The NEC should be standing up for the rights of workers and taking the side of the unions in this cost of living crisis. It should be insisting the party is actively campaigning for popular policies, like public ownership, to help build up Labour's support.

 

The Labour Party should respect its members

The Forde Report disclosed some disturbing events in the Labour Party organisation. The NEC must ensure the party addresses the anti-Black racism and Islamophobic behaviour the report revealed. This in addition to tackling all other forms of racism, bigotry, and oppression. It must also hold to account all those who took part in the disgraceful ballot rigging and misuse of party funds uncovered by Forde and push to ensure that staff understand and carry out their role to ensure fair selection procedures and to promote all democratically selected candidates, not just their favoured ones.

 

As the ballot for Labour's NEC election approaches, the undersigned Labour left groups urge party members to use their vote to fight for labour values.

In solidarity:

 

 

Campaign for Labour Party Democracy

Campaign for Socialism

Jewish Voice for Labour

Kashmiris for Labour

Labour Assembly Against Austerity

Labour Black Socialists

Labour Briefing (Co-op)

Labour CND

Labour Representation Committee

Labour Women Leading

Momentum

Northern England Labour Left

Welsh Labour Grassroots

 

#Grassroots5

Psybro

Good to see Rachel Reeves sticking up for the Bank of England, shows that Labour is still in touch with what really animates working people.

Buelligan

Great piece last night revealing video of Starmer's attitude towards picket lines when he was running for the leadership.  What a cunt that man is.  Timestamped - https://youtu.be/eJ5JG5-avZQ?list=RDCMUCOzMAa6IhV6uwYQATYG_2kg&t=879

BlodwynPig

Quote from: Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle on August 04, 2022, 08:02:24 PMThis is the point I'm
I wouldn't call myself a grown up by any stretch! 

But that's kind of the point isn't it?  There is no perfect approach to something as awful as this?



Quote from: Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle on August 04, 2022, 10:02:30 PMI'm not banging the drums for war or death, im saying that unforuntaly you can't always rely on a purely diplomatic solution when dealing with a tyrant.  Do you disagree with this statement?

The conditions for tyrants to emerge do not happen in isolation. Onward Christian Soldiers...

thugler

Does arming Ukraine not make diplomacy between them and Russia more likely rather than less? Without arms Russia don't have to negotiate with them because they have little leverage. I agree that dealing with it via diplomacy should be the goal always, but it's hard to see how that would work in this case. Setting a precedent that Russia can attack a sovereign nation without major consequences beyond attempts at diplomacy could be the cause of more deaths in the long run. I'm not convinced there is a totally 'correct' side to this conflict to be had.

shoulders

Quote from: thugler on August 06, 2022, 12:23:39 PMDoes arming Ukraine not make diplomacy between them and Russia more likely rather than less? Without arms Russia don't have to negotiate with them because they have little leverage. I agree that dealing with it via diplomacy should be the goal always, but it's hard to see how that would work in this case. Setting a precedent that Russia can attack a sovereign nation without major consequences beyond attempts at diplomacy could be the cause of more deaths in the long run. I'm not convinced there is a totally 'correct' side to this conflict to be had.

There isn't a totally correct side, no.

If a military option was to be deployed then the best strategy would have been to present a wall of resistance among many nations that shocked Putin into abandoning the invasion, and he could have come up with some bullshit to save face. As it is, he has found it slightly harder than he expected but not enough to actually stop.

All that arming and funding Ukraine since then has achieved is a slow grinding campaign destroying its infrastructure and the agriculture Europe depends on, the denial of gas supply wrecking the economy, the displacement of 10 million people. All needless. Yes, Putin bears a grave, overwhelming responsibility for that, but hard choices are coming up.

If you are honestly telling me that further devastation is preferable to a diplomatic one, even a bitter settlement, I have to disagree.

You ask what stops Putin from doing this again, but what are you actually proposing? We aren't invading Russia and Putin is going nowhere. Come to terms with the fact this isn't toppling some tinpot dictator and any such attempt means World War 3. Is that what we're going to put the world through, is that proportionate?

Get around the negotiating table now and stop this before it goes any further. Put everything possible in place to disincentivise any further aggression.

Buelligan

Quote from: thugler on August 06, 2022, 12:23:39 PMDoes arming Ukraine not make diplomacy between them and Russia more likely rather than less? Without arms Russia don't have to negotiate with them because they have little leverage. I agree that dealing with it via diplomacy should be the goal always, but it's hard to see how that would work in this case. Setting a precedent that Russia can attack a sovereign nation without major consequences beyond attempts at diplomacy could be the cause of more deaths in the long run. I'm not convinced there is a totally 'correct' side to this conflict to be had.


When you think about the question of arming, think about groups like the IRA or people that want their stolen land back in Palestine, how about those who objected to Russia invading Afghanistan?  Their feelings when the US and UK moved in?  Or the poor Chechens...

Who should be armed?  Who decides that?  How much arming is the correct level? To find the answers, to discover how 'whoever they are' decides it, would it be sensible to let it go to trial by combat? 

Or do we decide who gets protected, who gets guns, who has a voice, any voice at all, by looking at what suits us?