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August 10, 2022, 06:38:45 AM

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RTD back for Doctor Who

Started by Jack Shaftoe, September 24, 2021, 04:17:47 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

mjwilson

Paul McGann looks like he's falling over before the scene cuts and he regenerates.

Mister Six

Del Boy falls through the bar and comes back up as Father Ted.

Alberon

Of course David Jason has the distinction of being considered for each new Doctor from 1963 to today.

Mister Six

Quote from: mjwilson on August 05, 2022, 06:30:15 PMPaul McGann looks like he's falling over before the scene cuts and he regenerates.

Ah, I misread this as a random sentence rather than a response to the previous page.

That's another case of the regeneration being dictated by production circumstance, like Eccles-Tennant, isn't it? Don't have a young John Hurt to hand, or the tech to de-age him, so you have to use sleight of hand and a wobbly "reflection".

mjwilson

Quote from: Mister Six on August 05, 2022, 07:00:17 PMAh, I misread this as a random sentence rather than a response to the previous page.

That's another case of the regeneration being dictated by production circumstance, like Eccles-Tennant, isn't it? Don't have a young John Hurt to hand, or the tech to de-age him, so you have to use sleight of hand and a wobbly "reflection".

Yes sorry, I'm supposed to edit my post and put "new page dickhead" or something right?

Yes, quite right about the production circumstances, I just thought I would check to see what pose they had him in.

H-O-W-L

Thinking about what people say about it being too long between series, and... yeah. I was eleven when the series returned, and for me the wait between S1 and S2 was less than six months (since I caught the show on repeats in Nov/Dec on BBC3 rather than the first airings) and yet it felt like fucking forever. I got a "Regeneration double pack" of two figures -- Eccleston and Tennant in Eccleston's costume, and fuck me the wait still felt so long that for the longest time I thought Tennant was just gonna have Eccleston's costume by the time The Christmas Invasion aired!

The gap between S2 and S3 was so long for me, pre-Internet, that I actually forgot about the show for a bit until the last half (Human Nature onward). Then I got a PC with actual internet and whatnot in late '07 and S4 could get tae fuck. I only came back for S5 and it had me hooked... for that year and the bit after. I'd almost lost interest until S6 aired, and S6 itself rapidly lost me more and more... I was a teenager by then granted but the shoddy plotting turned me away even though I was still well within the age bracket that should've been hooked. The Silence were such pish.

An actual show airing nowadays is going to need some real clout to get kids off the 'net to watch it. That or it'll have to be more watchable online. iPlayer is sort of a crock of shit and semi-buries DW now.

I think if Series Ten had aired when I was a young'un it would've had me violently and brutally hooked on the show. Total gravitas, and it feels like it's both kid-appropriate while also being nasty and dark as fuck in a good way. I'm not so keen on the JNT era but it's sort of in a similar intention of not treating the show, or its watchers, like arseholes. It has that right cut of "adult horror" and "kids would be scared and think they'd almost get in trouble for watching it" that would keep both enthused for a long time. Probably Moffat's second-best season.

Psybro

The plot threads set up in the opening two parter of series 6 are so fucking good that it was devastating to later realise that threads is all they ever were.

H-O-W-L

That first episode sets up like a whole season of shit and it ends up being like the Revelation of the Daleks cliffhanger. It's actually sort of hilarious when you realize all those incredibly expensive spectacle shots in The Impossible Astronaut mean absolutely fucking nothing and exist purely to go "WE FILMED IN AMERICA!"

BritishHobo

I've said it before but the end of series 6 is the most fucked off I've ever felt with the show. I was midway through a Classic Who watch, and, overdramatically, that finale left me feeling like I'd lost all enthusiasm for the show. I'm a huge defender of Moffat, but I think above and beyond all my complaints with that series, it felt like a pisstake that he spent the whole thing hyping up a mystery that had nothing to it, and also told you nothing of interest about the character. Mad after the high that series 5 left me on.

BritishHobo

I do hope though, that RTD has a lot of stuff planned for getting the show loved again in a new age of streaming. The newest season of Stranger Things is a great example of how this can work - there had been a two-year gap, and when the news came out earlier in the year about the massive budget, the discourse was all about how irrelevant the show was, and that they were throwing mad money at a show nobody cared about anymore, while all the good stuff got canned. Come season 4, and it's hit bigger than ever, shot Kate Bush back up the charts, had a huge effect in pop culture conversations. RTD has talked before about how Doctor Who should look in this era of Netflix, so I'm hoping he's got big plans for getting people back in love with it.

mjwilson

Quote from: BritishHobo on August 05, 2022, 08:33:58 PMI've said it before but the end of series 6 is the most fucked off I've ever felt with the show. I was midway through a Classic Who watch, and, overdramatically, that finale left me feeling like I'd lost all enthusiasm for the show. I'm a huge defender of Moffat, but I think above and beyond all my complaints with that series, it felt like a pisstake that he spent the whole thing hyping up a mystery that had nothing to it, and also told you nothing of interest about the character. Mad after the high that series 5 left me on.

I was annoyed about the astronaut nonsense at the time but I don't think I'm that bothered any more. (Although maybe I should rewatch to test that.)

H-O-W-L

I dead-arse think that Series 6 is 100% skippable. Probably 7, too.

mjwilson

Quote from: H-O-W-L on August 05, 2022, 08:56:35 PMI dead-arse think that Series 6 is 100% skippable. Probably 7, too.

6 still has The Doctor's Wife, The Girl who Waited and The God Complex. (And A Good Man Goes To War, although that one is very arc-heavy.)


Mister Six

Quote from: mjwilson on August 05, 2022, 08:51:52 PMI was annoyed about the astronaut nonsense at the time but I don't think I'm that bothered any more. (Although maybe I should rewatch to test that.)

Join the Doctor Who rewatch thread! We'll reach it in, uh, about a year.

Psybro

After all the years of RTD's excesses with Tennant, Smith felt like my Doctor in a way I'd only ever felt about Tom before.  That kept me going through S6 & 7, and Moffat still had a propensity for making you think something good was coming round the corner. 

BritishHobo

I would also peg Smith as my Doctor, I think primarily because he was the first Doctor I watched without trying to be cool and pretending I disliked the show. The middle feels rough, but he definitely stuck the landing with the three '[blank] of the Doctor' episodes.

purlieu

I don't mind the series 6 arc, although it definitely has the same problem that has plagued almost all nu who which is the payoff is never as good as the setup. On the whole the series has a lot of episodes I like, as well as Eleven with Amy, Rory and River, which is definitely 'my' TARDIS team (along with Seven and Ace).

Psybro

RTD was known for diminishing returns in his finals, but where he nailed it was by having a big emotional hook which was the real climax.  It meant none of them felt like empty sound and fury, there was a dramatic point.

S1, Bad Wolf but actually the Doctor sacrificing himself for Rose

S2, CyberDalek apocalypse, Doctor loses Rose

S3, the fucking Toclafane but the Doctor loses the only chance at redemption for the Time War and friend zones Martha into the fuckit zone

S4, Dalek Infinite Crisis but he has to erase his least smug companion

End of Time, Gallifrey falls but The Doctor dies for Jerym Crobbins

Moffat nailed his first and last series and in the other ones sort of gave up in favour of some cool imagery.

H-O-W-L

I think the ultimate issue with Moffat as a writer in general is trying to create continuity. I mean, Sherlock's ending was shit but the stuff in between the start and finish was even worse. With his Who series he struggled with all the intermediary stuff where it had to continue past threads he'd laid down, but the first and last series he did were really fucking good because he was able to define everything from the top down.

Replies From View

There was, in retrospect, too much of Moffat dropping some magnificent-sounding names and foreboding phrases that ultimately he didn't have a plan for until he approached that particular episode or finale.

It's a standard of improvisation where you're leaving trails for others to pick up, not just yourself, but Moffat was leaving trails for his own future self to deal with.

I had some faith in this process until series 7 showed that Moffat had spent 8 episodes attempting to find a character for Clara, and series 9 showed him all over the place trying to decide what the hybrid was.

mjwilson

Quote from: Replies From View on August 06, 2022, 09:33:57 AMI had some faith in this process until series 7 showed that Moffat had spent 8 episodes attempting to find a character for Clara, and series 9 showed him all over the place trying to decide what the hybrid was.

I don't know, I feel like he probably had the idea for what the hybrid was from the start of the season, he just throws in some many red herrings as to psosible identities that it starts to look like he's taking the piss out of RTD "Torchwood"-style season arcs.

BritishHobo

#2241
That's a good point. Series 6 spent a lot of its time deliberately doing that, which counter-intuitively built more hype for what the clever resolution would be. Causing inevitable disappointment when, well, there wasn't one.

I recall the same thing happened with Sherlock, where there was so much hype and mystery after the 'fall' finale, and then the first episode of the next series tried to be all bum-gazey about the solution not mattering - in a mystery show! - and Moffat and Gatiss seemed mystified as to why people would be unsatisfied with this.

purlieu

The hybrid resolution was similar - doesn't the Doctor basically say it could be one of a number of things? Which doesn't really feel earned.

mjwilson

Quote from: purlieu on August 06, 2022, 11:12:23 AMThe hybrid resolution was similar - doesn't the Doctor basically say it could be one of a number of things? Which doesn't really feel earned.

I think it's set up to imply that the Doctor and Clara together make up the hybrid. But (from memory) there's no one moment where anyone definitively says that.

Replies From View

Quote from: mjwilson on August 06, 2022, 10:27:32 AMI don't know, I feel like he probably had the idea for what the hybrid was from the start of the season, he just throws in some many red herrings as to psosible identities that it starts to look like he's taking the piss out of RTD "Torchwood"-style season arcs.

Well then the final episode should have properly identified what it was.

Replies From View

Quote from: mjwilson on August 06, 2022, 12:55:30 PMI think it's set up to imply that the Doctor and Clara together make up the hybrid. But (from memory) there's no one moment where anyone definitively says that.

It's no good.  It isn't good enough.  We already know that the Doctor + Rose are this, the Doctor + Donna is that (the DoctorDonna to be precise) - the Gallifrey prophecy wasn't that the Doctor and his companion would do what the Doctor and his companions always do.

Malcy

The Hybrid arc was fucking shite.

Replies From View

Quote from: Malcy on August 06, 2022, 07:09:22 PMThe Hybrid arc was fucking shite.

And it did have potential, this is what's most annoying.  I especially liked the references to the enemy within the friend.  Clara inside a Dalek was a bit on the nose, but then you had Missy having her complex friend/enemy connection with the Doctor, and the Zygon duplicates and their original human counterparts living side by side ambiguous about which is which. 

If series 9's finale had ended up about being Clara manipulating the Doctor into a terrible situation, after Missy hypnotised her, I wouldn't be sitting here complaining about it.

1)  All that stuff about Missy choosing Clara in the first place, and working to keep Clara and the Doctor together, would have had a more satisfying conclusion if it had been about her sense that Clara could be easily manipulated and turned against the Doctor.  Because as it was, this detail went nowhere.

2)  It would have just been great to have the Master's / Missy's hypnotising potential brought back, along with somebody untrustworthy in the TARDIS (Turlough's arc done properly).  It would have been exciting, and most importantly felt as if events were leading somewhere as we saw the Doctor misled.  Have the Doctor conned by Davros as well, rather than going along with it as his own trick, and you'd have a more vulnerable and trusting incarnation of the Doctor.

3)  That amazing dream sequence about throwing the TARDIS keys into lava could have been true and led somewhere instead of being a dead-end

4)  Missy experimenting with Clara inside the Dalek could have been a part of this larger scheme somehow, instead of, again, leading nowhere.

5)  It would have fed into series 10... Missy now in that prison, the arc about could she be redeemed, all of that.

mjwilson

Quote from: Replies From View on August 06, 2022, 06:34:14 PMIt's no good.  It isn't good enough.  We already know that the Doctor + Rose are this, the Doctor + Donna is that (the DoctorDonna to be precise) - the Gallifrey prophecy wasn't that the Doctor and his companion would do what the Doctor and his companions always do.

I do wonder if Moffat would have pushed it a bit further if RTD hadn't already done the DoctorDonna.

Replies From View

There's no reason why the hybrid had to be the companion + Doctor.  It wasn't a good idea in the first place.  There's not enough to go on because Clara was too thinly drawn, for a start.  But also she wasn't special in the context of all the other companions the Doctor has had.  It's one thing for the Doctor to bang on about how his/her current companions are so important and special and unique, but for this to be qualified by some ancient premonition, it's just stupid.

I speak as someone who doesn't mind the series 6 arc, apart from Let's Kill Hitler, and has forgiven the flaws of series 7 because they ultimately feed into the 50th anniversary episode which is magnificent.

The hybrid arc is Moffat's biggest error, I think.