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Documental (Japanese Comedy Show)

Started by fit bird, October 11, 2021, 10:36:36 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Minami Minegishi

Quote from: Swoz_MK on July 27, 2022, 12:57:09 PMWhat's Raiden's schedule like usually? Could tie in well with the end of 9!

Well, he already has Season 10 fully subbed but is dropping them weekly (Saturday).


#393
I don't know if its good to use this thread for Japanese comedy in general, but this might interest some. My partner is learning Japanese and I'm trying to educate myself on some Japanese stuff for a project, so she sent me this video because there is a decent explanation of Manzai by someone who clearly hates western stereotypes of Asian comedy, and an example of it in context.


I thought it might be good to post here because the roles of the Documental players play a big part in the show, especially Fujimon's role as a boke (which he shares with Matsumoto).

Yuta's explanation of Manzai made me think of some discussions on this forum in the examples he gives. When he said that people unfamiliar with Japanese culture might not understand the roles, and gave the example of the tsukkomi using literary Japanese it made me think of this epochal moment in UK comedy - the way Ernie says "as you can gather...". It makes me think Manzai isn't really a direct analogue like funny man and straight man like Wiki says, but closer to UK acts who subvert those roles.

It also makes me think of Bob Mortimer saying something like "most people at the time wanted to come out of shows thinking 'what a clever bloke', but I prefered shows where I came out saying 'what a bloody idiot!'"

If this post is bad here's a reddit post I found with a ridiculous Jimmy Onishi skit to make up for it https://www.reddit.com/r/GakiNoTsukai/comments/edo7xg/nolaughing_enthusiastic_teachers_father_jimmy/ "Father Xavier Onishi"

Ja'moke

The shouting dude in Season 9 trying to explain the convoluted rules of his games and the others (plus Matsumoto) being baffled absolutely cracks me up.

Minami Minegishi

#395
Quote from: Video Game Fan 2000 on July 27, 2022, 08:24:57 PMI don't know if its good to use this thread for Japanese comedy in general, but this might interest some. My partner is learning Japanese and I'm trying to educate myself on some Japanese stuff for a project, so she sent me this video because there is a decent explanation of Manzai by someone who clearly hates western stereotypes of Asian comedy, and an example of it in context.


I thought it might be good to post here because the roles of the Documental players play a big part in the show, especially Fujimon's role as a boke (which he shares with Matsumoto).

Yuta's explanation of Manzai made me think of some discussions on this forum in the examples he gives. When he said that people unfamiliar with Japanese culture might not understand the roles, and gave the example of the tsukkomi using literary Japanese it made me think of this epochal moment in UK comedy - the way Ernie says "as you can gather...". It makes me think Manzai isn't really a direct analogue like funny man and straight man like Wiki says, but closer to UK acts who subvert those roles.

It also makes me think of Bob Mortimer saying something like "most people at the time wanted to come out of shows thinking 'what a clever bloke', but I prefered shows where I came out saying 'what a bloody idiot!'"

If this post is bad here's a reddit post I found with a ridiculous Jimmy Onishi skit to make up for it https://www.reddit.com/r/GakiNoTsukai/comments/edo7xg/nolaughing_enthusiastic_teachers_father_jimmy/ "Father Xavier Onishi"

Great post - I think trying to find accurate parallels for Japanese comedy within British comedy is incredibly hard, and just simply does not translate that well. In many ways 'they' are tied to 'their' comedy history far closer than Brits - notably in the way UK comedy moved away from Variety and musichall, end of the pier humour. But it seems a lot of Japanese comedy does indeed draw on very old traditions simply to subvert them. Sometimes it is just the subverting itself that is funny, regardless of content. An example of that can be seen in the way that elders find it incredibly funny when younger comedians transgress laws of respect and hierarchy. At first you could be fooled into thinking that these comedians take hierarchy and formality really seriously, as an extension of how Westerners regard Japanese people in more general terms. But I feel that this hierarchy is partially maintained simply as a received mode to transgress in comedy.

Having said that, if you watch the No Laughing Batsus there is also an episode where you find out that Hōsei Yamasaki did a very long and well-respected 'storytelling' course that resulted in him changing his name for traditional reasons to Hōsei Tsukitei. We simply do not have anything like those kinds of formalities and expectations in something as silly as comedy.

Anyway, folks - Season 10, Episode 2 https://mega.nz/folder/D7JDSarB#cWaDy8vDePphrLFNgc3v2w

If you would also like episode 3 please PM me.

Minami Minegishi

Well that was joyous. I adore Yurian - truly a surreal and brilliant mind.

Also,
Spoiler alert
Fujimon's presence totally fucked with the dynamics in a beautiful way.
[close]
Spoiler alert
Folks are holding out on laughing in an impressive way, which means bad things for our plucky hero and fan favourite. 
[close]

Minami Minegishi

S10E04 up. RAIDEN not fucking around.

Seriously, this is one of my favourite seasons. Top tier.

If you're struggling with S09 just hold on because the only thing wrong with S10 is a lack of Jimmy.

Spoiler alert
Goto and Fujimon are making this so good. I'm just sad that
Spoiler alert
Coo-chan
[close]
is so bad at not laughing. But it does prove my theory that the funniest contestants are usually the first to go (except for Yurian).
[close]

amateur

Quote from: Ja'moke on July 28, 2022, 11:31:03 AMThe shouting dude in Season 9 trying to explain the convoluted rules of his games and the others (plus Matsumoto) being baffled absolutely cracks me up.

Hugely enjoyed S09E03 for these reasons above.

I also think I'm getting more into things that aren't funny going on for ages, as long as they don't involve shouting.

Spoiler alert
The bit where your man showed his Street Fighter video twice, almost tipped me over.
[close]

Just magnificent desperation - really into this series.

fit bird

Documental 11 announced and
Spoiler alert
none of the contestants are comedians
[close]
...

Ja'moke

Quote from: fit bird on August 12, 2022, 11:40:31 AMDocumental 11 announced and
Spoiler alert
none of the contestants are comedians
[close]
...

Oh. What is the theme? Regular citizens? Or other types of celebs?

EDIT: Just checked reddit. It seems to be a mixture of actors, musicians, and sports stars.

Here is the cast:

Spoiler alert
Ayanokoji Sho: main vocalist and guitarrist of the jRock band Kishidan which has unique visuals.

Katori Shingo: Singer, actor and former SMAP member. He was one of the most popular idols of Johnny Entertainment. He has a YouTube gaming channel.

Kamiji Yuusuke: Actor and singer. He has appeared in Kohaku Uta Gassen and was awarded in Japan Academy Awards. He has a YouTube channel.

Takanohana Koji: former sumo wrestler. He was a very proeminent wrestler who won many championships. Actually, he's a coach and he also serves as a general director of an association that aims to promote sumo wrestling.

Takashashi Katsunori: actor and singer. Awarded with Japan Academy Awards and Elandor Award, he also received the Ameba BLOG of the year in 2015. Former monthly personality of the popular morning show ZIP!

Musaka Naomasa: veteran actor who appeared in a lot of doramas, including taiga dramas (historical doramas of NHK). His list of movies is also very long.

Moriuchi Hiroki: vocalist of the jRock band MY FIRST STORY, which many songs ranked in Oricon charts. He's a former Johnny's trainee. And guess who is his father? The enka singer Mori Shin'ichi, who is highly impersonated by Endo. His family has a lot of celebrities, his mom is the enka singer Mori Masako, and his brother is the former NEWS (Johnny's group) Taka.
[close]

Swoz_MK

Quite sad reading Thanos' latest Patreon update. Documental translator beef is the new East Coast Vs West Coast

amateur

Quote from: Swoz_MK on Yesterday at 08:33:01 AMQuite sad reading Thanos' latest Patreon update. Documental translator beef is the new East Coast Vs West Coast

I didn't really understand what was going on there. Sure, Thanos isn't the quickest but it's a heck of a lot of work, and I'm certainly not going to do it, so he can take as long as he wants in my book.

Minami Minegishi

This has been brewing for months and I'm surprised it took this long.

There is a lot to say here, but it seems so silly and trivial to discuss it so seriously.

Here is my brief take:

The 'Gaki' community of subbers pre-dates Documental by many years, but of course the interest in this genre has sky-rocketed the moment Documental was picked up by Amazon.

RAIDEN has been a respected subber for a long time. You will notice in season 10 that the subs, edits, contexts and info is far more detailed and precise than Thanos' subs. Thanos' awareness and knowledge of Japanese comedy culture is quite thin compared to RAIDEN. I'm delighted that Thanos has been subbing - it's great. But if RAIDEN subbed them tomorrow I would watch them again knowing they are better ( and far better than Amazon's own subs in the case of seasons 1-5).

Some people are a little irritated with the rate that Thanos releases videos, a d his tendency to split a single episode across a whole month. I don't care about that - the guy has a £1 Patreon. It's not a lucrative way to accrue cash so who cares really?

Some people are unhappy that for the second time Thanos' has posted a private conversation with another subber. It is hard to explain just how frowned upon this is by people in the community and it has harmed his standing.

I personally would like RAIDEN to sub season 11 for entirely selfish reasons. RAIDEN's work-rate simply does not match Thanos' so for them to work together is impractical.

Sorry - that wasn't very brief.

amateur

Quote from: Minami Minegishi on Yesterday at 10:43:36 AMThis has been brewing for months and I'm surprised it took this long.

There is a lot to say here, but it seems so silly and trivial to discuss it so seriously.

Here is my brief take:

The 'Gaki' community of subbers pre-dates Documental by many years, but of course the interest in this genre has sky-rocketed the moment Documental was picked up by Amazon.

RAIDEN has been a respected subber for a long time. You will notice in season 10 that the subs, edits, contexts and info is far more detailed and precise than Thanos' subs. Thanos' awareness and knowledge of Japanese comedy culture is quite thin compared to RAIDEN. I'm delighted that Thanos has been subbing - it's great. But if RAIDEN subbed them tomorrow I would watch them again knowing they are better ( and far better than Amazon's own subs in the case of seasons 1-5).

Some people are a little irritated with the rate that Thanos releases videos, a d his tendency to split a single episode across a whole month. I don't care about that - the guy has a £1 Patreon. It's not a lucrative way to accrue cash so who cares really?

Some people are unhappy that for the second time Thanos' has posted a private conversation with another subber. It is hard to explain just how frowned upon this is by people in the community and it has harmed his standing.

I personally would like RAIDEN to sub season 11 for entirely selfish reasons. RAIDEN's work-rate simply does not match Thanos' so for them to work together is impractical.

Sorry - that wasn't very brief.

Very interesting, thank you as always @Minami Minegishi. Just when I think I have a handle on this whole world of comedy outside my own, I realise I haven't got a clue.

So from your point of view - if RAIDEN has been doing this for a long time, how come Thanos was able to do Documental unopposed for so long? Is there a feeling of getting dibs on something if you get in fast?

I'm looking forward to watching all of the end of S09 and then can't wait to get into 10 through RAIDEN to do some comparison.

Minami Minegishi

#405
Quote from: amateur on Yesterday at 01:24:55 PMVery interesting, thank you as always @Minami Minegishi. Just when I think I have a handle on this whole world of comedy outside my own, I realise I haven't got a clue.

It is a surreal and culturally vastly different world. I am good friends with one of the Gaki sub mods which is why I hear so much, but I am on the periphery just like the rest of you. So take my opinions with caution.

QuoteSo from your point of view - if RAIDEN has been doing this for a long time, how come Thanos was able to do Documental unopposed for so long? Is there a feeling of getting dibs on something if you get in fast?

I wrote out a ridiculously long reply to this and then I got logged out and lost it, so I will do a potted history here because I don't have the energy to do it all again haha:

- Years ago lots of subbers working who are a kind of cliquey community. Famous subbers such as Appieopie suddenly disappeared during Lockdown and so there was a bit of a vacuum left. The job is extremely hard, time-consuming and even with a Patreon, it is pennies per hour of work.
- The hardcore fans of this type of comedy are actually quite neutral about Documental, particularly the way that it adopts a more Western production style and tone. So there was a clamouring for the thousands of hours of shows like Wednesday Downtown that still have not been subbed, even though The Silent Library torrent is MASSIVE.
- RAIDEN was a well-known subber who went AWOL for a while.
- Thanos appears and although there is some cliquey "who he?" negativity, generally it is accepted by people like you or I that ANY subbing is gratefully received.
- Thanos gets to work on the rest of the unsubbed season 7, and then season 8, but there is a feeling amongst some that they are being bled out rather slowly. My view: £1 Patreon plus a new subber getting to grips with software and subbing, and gaining experience is all for the good.
- RAIDEN returns and wants to sub Season 9. Thanos disagrees for reasons that do not make a lot of sense, especially as he clearly had not begun work on them. That is the start of the 'bad blood'.
- RAIDEN instead subs Season 10 and has it done before Thanos has time to put out episode 2 of season 9. RAIDEN agrees to hold off until season 9 is fully subbed by Thanos.
- Thanos is taking a long time, and RAIDEN is getting messages from people saying "if you've done them, release them." Makes sense. RAIDEN semi-goes back on his word and starts putting out season 10 weekly, much to the delight of impatient fucks like me.
- RAIDEN wants to do season 11, but Thanos says he has dibs because RAIDEN did S10.
- People note that Thanos has not subbed in the way he intended, with breaks, unfinished episodes, slightly incomplete subs (acknowledged by Thanos) and unembedded notes (something RAIDEN does on his first run). RAIDEN agrees.
- If Thanos goes at his current rate, season 11 of five episodes could take up to five months (5 x half episodes = 10 x fortnightly = about 5 months). In contrast RAIDEN would take a couple of days for each episode aired, totalling naturally up to about 5-weeks.

That's still an embarrassingly long post for such a trivial subject, but this is a comedy forum so I thought it might be of interest.

QuoteI'm looking forward to watching all of the end of S09 and then can't wait to get into 10 through RAIDEN to do some comparison.

Zakoshi's reliance on Japanese comedy references in S10 (not a spoiler I don't think) means that the on-screen notes are crucial. I think you will notice the difference, although RAIDEN also has a tendency to typos but nothing that obscures meaning (he mixes up his Rs and Ls in a way that surprised me as I thought this was only a phonetic issue in Japanese language).

I love Season 10!

I also think I understand why they have moved from comedians to non-comedians for season 11, although I disapprove of any decision that prevents Jimmy, Akiyama and Coo-chan from appearing.