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March 29, 2024, 09:36:57 AM

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A quiet voice of sanity

Started by Buelligan, January 30, 2022, 11:28:47 AM

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Buelligan

I'm sorry, I don't really visit this board, apologies if this has already been linked.  Was watching it and, apart from thinking what a profound shame it is that this man isn't running Britain, thought his viewpoint on this (as on so much else) was sanity itself. 


Crenners

Why should anyone care what David Icke thinks 😂😂😂

Fambo Number Mive

I'm concerned, given the staff shortages in the NHS already, as to what the plans are if a percentage of NHS staff leave their jobs rather than be vaccinated.

I was surprised as to why the government were keeping vaccine mandates for NHS staff given their OPEN THE PUBS attitude to everyone else, and wonder if it's part of a strategy to damage the NHS so much that public opposition to privatising it lessens.

Buelligan

That thought hadn't occurred to me but it seems entirely logical.

Kankurette

Oh yay. Antivaxx bullshit. No thanks.

bgmnts

Nah sorry, in this instance yeah if there needs to be a stupid mandate then so be it.

Kankurette

I don't think vaccines should be mandatory for EVERYONE but if you work in healthcare, you're going to be around vulnerable/disabled/elderly people. Who are at risk from COVID. You don't get jabbed, you catch COVID, you risk passing it on to your patients. If you don't believe in vaccines, why are you working in healthcare?

If Corbyn is the voice of sanity, then thank G-d I'm mentally ill.

bgmnts

Well Corbyn is literally one of the few people in modern politics who isn't an absolute cunt goblin and he is right about almost everything, and I'll probably say even this comes from a good place but yes people in the health sector should be vaccinated.

Although to be fair lots of people are probably working in healthcare because they need a job, otherwise they'll starve and die, and maybe that was the easiest avenue for them to gain employment, in the health and care industry.

Oh imagine how different that could have been if we had a more socialist government eh.

Kankurette

Yeah, imagine having a functioning healthcare system in the UK. And a government who aren't obsessed with profit and don't look at the US and think 'hmmm, that sounds fun'.

I just wish antivaxxers would consider disabled people for once. I don't have to shield but me getting COVID and ending up with long COVID would make me even worse off than I already am.

Video Game Fan 2000

I'm obviously pro-vaxx and pro-vaxx passports, but I don't see how a mandate or compulsory system wouldn't be a horrible legal precident. I'm not even convinced it'd be that much of a positive for vaccine uptake, and would obliterate public trust going forward. It'd be a confession that the government cannot convince or even talk to skeptics or hesistants.

Dunno much about the UK situation, but in EU the pandemic has set some awful precidents for stuff like state authority, censorship, policing, employment, etc. If the UK situation is even remotely similar Corbyn is right: the new powers governments are granting themselves do bleed over into things like policing and borders. If a government grants power to employers to hastily fire me for tweeting that I don't want the vaccine, maybe that will hold for employment blacklists for environmental protesters? What if I'm a vaccinated refugee and don't have my vaccine papers, and my relative is in hospital, does my right of vistation just vanish? How can we trust media blacklists won't apply in future to people who publish about toxic chemicals in air and water if their information is speculative? If the police can remove me from a public space because I don't have my vaccine pass, what's to stop them doing it if I don't have other papers? etc. We might inherit a nightmare.

Endicott

Apart from the appalling legal precedents, I don't think it's very helpful to label people who think vaccination shouldn't be made mandatory as antivaxxers. You can be pro vax but still recognise that the NHS is going to collapse in 6 months if you proceed with a policy of making it mandatory for all employees. They've already lost 40,000 staff, what happens to the disabled when the NHS loses another 40,000?

Kankurette

But why are so many people working in the NHS refusing the jab? Do you not think that's a bit worrying?

No, I'm not pro-mandatory vaccines, because I don't trust this government not to abuse it. I am worried about the antivaxx movement in the UK.

bgmnts

Is being anti mandate the same as being antivaxx? I thought antivaxx was just literally being against taking the vaccine.

Funcrusher

Is it even fair to call someone Antivaxx who is sympathetic to those with qualms about this vaccine but does not question other established vaccines?

chveik

Quote from: Kankurette on January 31, 2022, 12:44:14 PMOh yay. Antivaxx bullshit. No thanks.

he's not being antivaxx. if you don't like him fine but there's no need to make shit up.

Crenners

Is this Jeremy Corbyn or Pierre Corbyn
😂😂😂

flotemysost

Quote from: Kankurette on January 31, 2022, 12:54:24 PMI don't think vaccines should be mandatory for EVERYONE but if you work in healthcare, you're going to be around vulnerable/disabled/elderly people. Who are at risk from COVID. You don't get jabbed, you catch COVID, you risk passing it on to your patients. If you don't believe in vaccines, why are you working in healthcare?

Yeah, I'm not at all pro-mandate in an ideological sense, but this is a completely fair enough practical concern. My vulnerable parents barely leave the house except for hospital appointments these days, but what good is that if they're potentially going to be sitting in a consultation with someone who's unvaccinated and could infect them? I mean they're vaccinated and boostered themselves, but I know not all vulnerable people can be - it seems a bit nuts that an extremely vulnerable cancer patient who can't have the vaccine could in theory be treated by unvaccinated health workers.

Of course I realise vaccinated people can get covid and potentially pass it on (though it's much less likely to be serious), so other precautions are still needed; I don't work for the NHS myself but I know loads of people who do (in both clinical and non-clinical roles) and AFAIK regular self-testing is encouraged, but not enforced, so someone could very easily be going into work with covid and not realising it. And I know staff have to wear masks at work, which again adds another level of protection, but still, totally understandable for vulnerable patients to be worried by this.

I don't disagree with Corbyn here, I guess it's just a very bleak and surreal situation when the NHS is already in such a precarious position as it is (thanks to other, existing non-covid/non-vaccine-related factors) that there even needs to be a conversation about whether vaccinating staff against a highly contagious virus which could be incredibly dangerous for some patients will be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Disagree with any kind of financial penalties for unvaccinated people though, especially stuff like the Morrisons sick pay sanction for unvaxxed staff which I think is unfairly punitive to those with the most to lose and will do fuck all to convince people to get vaccinated, probably the opposite if anything.




Noodle Lizard

Quote from: flotemysost on February 01, 2022, 12:11:33 AMOf course I realise vaccinated people can get covid and potentially pass it on (though it's much less likely to be serious)

It's less likely to be serious to the vaccinated individual, but it's not significantly less transmissible as we've recently learned. Regardless of which side of the argument you fall on, it's fairly clear that vaccine mandates don't do a whole lot to prevent spread. The fact that a vaccinated person may not feel quite as sick only means they're more likely to turn up to work or be out and about whilst contagious.

There's been a bit too much emphasis on the vaccine, I think. Like the UK's recent plan to drop testing for double-vaccinated travelers, which makes no sense given what we know now. If anything, keep the testing and lose the vaccine requirement. Same with hospital staff.

I think Corbyn made his point very sensibly in that video. It's understandable to be concerned about COVID and thinking that we must throw everything we possibly can at the wall in order to try and stop it, but it's also important not to lose sight of the bigger picture and how any ostensibly well-meaning measures might one day be used nefariously. Depends how much you trust the government, really, but I've never had much cause to.

Kankurette

I don't. You know that whatever measures they bring in will end up screwing over marginalised people.

Zetetic

Quote from: Kankurette on January 31, 2022, 06:26:06 PMBut why are so many people working in the NHS refusing the jab? Do you not think that's a bit worrying?
I think this is a good point.

Ultimately, if you have large proportions of patient-facing teams of healthcare professionals refusing vaccination and you're unable to actually manage that by discussion, then you have a much bigger problem.

Crenners

Just fire them and get new ones from abroad

greenman

#21
I do feel as well that I think theres been a concerted effort to paint everyone who isnt vaccinated as being someone who buys into extreme conspiracy theories and pushes them on the net.

The reality as I understand it is actually that the lowest levels of vaccine update are in minority communities and it seems unlikely to me that these communities would been more strongly drawn to conspiracy theories that tend to be based either on right wing ideas or woo science. I think you could argue that really the idea of the anti vax conspiracy theorist has been a bit of a convenient scapegoat to avoid addressing the issues of why these communities arent getting vaccinated.

It means basically the vaccine message has been targeted at anti vax conspiracy theories not at say why people in minority communities might be mistrustful of healthcare generally. Not only would that mean addressing real issues like racism in the NHS but it would also arguebly mean giving people like Corbyn more of a platform.

I mean really I would argue if you wanted to improve update of vaccines in those communities actually one of the best possible ways would be to have frequent public service announcements by someone like Corbyn who is actually trusted more by those communities that acknowledged reasons why they might be fearful of vaccination but that it was the correct choice.

flotemysost

Quote from: Noodle Lizard on February 01, 2022, 12:55:24 AMThere's been a bit too much emphasis on the vaccine, I think. Like the UK's recent plan to drop testing for double-vaccinated travelers, which makes no sense given what we know now. If anything, keep the testing and lose the vaccine requirement. Same with hospital staff.

Yeah, I don't think it's hugely controversial to say the vaccine programme in the UK has been expected to do a huge amount of heavy lifting so they can prove they got covid done and get everything back to how it was (if you just ignore all the dead people). Removing all other restrictions at this point feels like total bloody-minded lunacy, not that that's anything new of course.

I mean, I've had three jabs and covid is kicking my young-ish, healthy-ish arse with a big crusty hobnail boot right now (though obviously I definitely wouldn't fancy my chances without vaccines). I wonder if it would be a better policy for venues and the like to require EVERYONE to show proof of a negative test in the last 24 hours (or whatever the optimal recommended window is) regardless of vaccine status, rather than an either/or deal (as was the case for both of the venues where I'm sure I probably picked it up over the weekend.) I've been testing myself before and after any kind of social mixing and also going to the office anyway, but that's probably something that could be encouraged a bit more vociferously too.

A hospital is obviously very different to a pub or a nightclub, though - at least some staff are likely to be in close contact with very highly vulnerable patients who don't have a choice about whether to be there. It's just frustrating that the NHS has already been fucked over so badly that the stakes in the situation are so dire, it possibly wouldn't feel like such an unreasonable/destructive proposition in different circumstances.

Quote from: greenman on February 01, 2022, 11:42:20 AMThe reality as I understand it is actually that the lowest levels of vaccine update are in minority communities and it seems unlikely to me that these communities would been more strongly drawn to conspiracy theories that tend to be based either on right wing ideas or woo science. I think you could argue that really the idea of the anti vax conspiracy theorist has been a bit of a convenient scapegoat to avoid addressing the issues of why these communities arent getting vaccinated.

It means basically the vaccine message has been targeted at anti vax conspiracy theories not at say why people in minority communities might be mistrustful of healthcare generally. Not only would that mean addressing real issues like racism in the NHS but it would also arguebly mean giving people like Corbyn more of a platform.

I mean really I would argue if you wanted to improve update of vaccines in those communities actually one of the best possible ways would be to have frequent public service announcements by someone like Corbyn who is actually trusted more by those communities that acknowledged reasons why they might be fearful of vaccination but that it was the correct choice.

Yeah, completely agree with this too.

Crenners

Get jabbed obfuscating cunt 😂😂😂

bgmnts

I needed that ha. I just found out my mother is anti mandate and a vaccine sceptic and that sucks. She at least took the vaccines and the booster because she wants to visit Australia to see my sister but it is just shit when someone who taught you ethics in your formative years has silly views.

Fucking covid.

Theremin

Hang on, genuine question:

People who are vaccinated can still pass on Covid, right?

Certain brands of the vaccine lower transmission to different extents, but none of them take that to 0%, correct?

So anyone can still pass a strain on, regardless of what vaccines they have or haven't had.


stonkers

They reduce transmission a bit but none of them are very good at it.

Jezza is correct to oppose vaccine mandates.

katzenjammer

Some thing he says are correct, but at the time of making that video he could not possibly have known that and his reasoning is poor. Also the editing on that video is terrible and the enormous amount of jump cuts makes it impossible to know what he really said.

Noodle Lizard

Quote from: katzenjammer on February 11, 2022, 08:29:39 PMSome thing he says are correct, but at the time of making that video he could not possibly have known that and his reasoning is poor. Also the editing on that video is terrible and the enormous amount of jump cuts makes it impossible to know what he really said.

I don't know what's come out in the past month or so that he "couldn't possibly have known". We've known that vaccines don't do much to prevent transmission since last August or so. By the time of this video (January this year), it had become pretty clear that vaccine passports in other countries didn't do much to slow the spread, and that vaccinated people were still getting fully symptomatic COVID.

I don't know much about Double Down News, but I'm sure he would have raised an issue if they'd deliberately misrepresented him. What did he say in the video that you disagreed with?

stonkers

He was still coming out with zero covid bollocks a year ago so I'm not exactly placing great value on his opinion, but he is correct on the specific issue of opposing vaccine mandates.