Tip jar

If you like CaB and wish to support it, you can use PayPal or KoFi. Thank you, and I hope you continue to enjoy the site - Neil.

Buy Me a Coffee at ko-fi.com

Support CaB

Recent

Welcome to Cook'd and Bomb'd. Please login or sign up.

March 29, 2024, 01:42:56 PM

Login with username, password and session length

A quiet voice of sanity

Started by Buelligan, January 30, 2022, 11:28:47 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

vanilla.coffee

Quote from: Theremin on February 10, 2022, 02:26:15 PMHang on, genuine question:

People who are vaccinated can still pass on Covid, right?

Certain brands of the vaccine lower transmission to different extents, but none of them take that to 0%, correct?

So anyone can still pass a strain on, regardless of what vaccines they have or haven't had.



You can't ask this question, people will get upset. It could turn anti vax/pro vax people against each other.

flotemysost

You can definitely get it and be symptomatic if you're fully jabbed - as I just have been, and quite a few people I know are currently - though hopefully in most cases, significantly milder symptoms than without vaccines.
 I don't know how that affects transmission though. Do stronger symptoms generally = more easily transmissible? I was sneezing and spluttering all over the shop for a few days, if it was one of those gov adverts where you see people huffing out covid like it's black fog then my room probably looked like a murky Dickensian backstreet. Came up strong on the old latty F well into day 9. Good thing we've got masks, testing and isolation to pick up the slack there in curbing the spread! Oh, wait...

All Surrogate

This is why infection control is analysed at a population level rather than an individual level. If you want outbreaks to be contained, and you want that containment to be achieved by vaccination rather than restrictions on activities, then you need vaccination to be prevalent enough. A sufficiently large minority of unvaccinated people will mean outbreaks will spread rather than die out, so it's important that as many people as possible are vaccinated, to reduce the likelihood that personal freedoms lose out to the necessities of controlling disease.

Crenners

^ An actual quiet voice of sanity.

Noodle Lizard

Quote from: All Surrogate on February 13, 2022, 05:21:45 PMThis is why infection control is analysed at a population level rather than an individual level. If you want outbreaks to be contained, and you want that containment to be achieved by vaccination rather than restrictions on activities, then you need vaccination to be prevalent enough. A sufficiently large minority of unvaccinated people will mean outbreaks will spread rather than die out, so it's important that as many people as possible are vaccinated, to reduce the likelihood that personal freedoms lose out to the necessities of controlling disease.

That would all make sense if the COVID-19 vaccines prevented infection and transmission, which they do not (the CDC are now saying they were never even designed to do so). The most-vaccinated countries also saw their highest case counts at the end of last year, dwarfing the year before where there was no vaccine available. Israel is 99% vaccinated, ahead of the rest of the world on boosters, has a full on vax-pass system, and they just saw their all-time peak in January.

I understand the vaccines preventing serious illness/death, and that's a good thing. But what are vaccine passports actually designed to do?

EDIT: That sounded snarkier than I wanted it to. I'm just yet to hear of a good justification for them (other than encouraging more people to get vaccinated for their own sake, but that's not the official reason).

jamiefairlie

Quote from: Noodle Lizard on February 13, 2022, 11:02:31 PMThat would all make sense if the COVID-19 vaccines prevented infection and transmission, which they do not (the CDC are now saying they were never even designed to do so). The most-vaccinated countries also saw their highest case counts at the end of last year, dwarfing the year before where there was no vaccine available. Israel is 99% vaccinated, ahead of the rest of the world on boosters, has a full on vax-pass system, and they just saw their all-time peak in January.

I understand the vaccines preventing serious illness/death, and that's a good thing. But what are vaccine passports actually designed to do?

EDIT: That sounded snarkier than I wanted it to. I'm just yet to hear of a good justification for them (other than encouraging more people to get vaccinated for their own sake, but that's not the official reason).

Totally agree and it's not ever really discussed, the vast majority think vaccinated equals not being a spreader and do they don't bother taking any precautions.

chveik

we've had a vaccine pass since last summer and it hasn't stopped the spread since vaccinated people think they can do whatever the fuck they want.

shoulders

Being against a mandate doesn't make you antivax, and people shouldn't ever conflate the two.

I don't have a strong view regarding mandates. Can see the arguments for and against.


Theremin

Quote from: chveik on February 14, 2022, 01:04:42 AMwe've had a vaccine pass since last summer and it hasn't stopped the spread since vaccinated people think they can do whatever the fuck they want.

That last part is the key, I think.

Considering we're talking about wealthy high-vax countries that also have strong individualist and consumerist traditions.

The Netherlands (my backyard) is the same.

The loss to the NHS of a trained, skilled and experienced worker will itself have an impact on vulnerable patients- if all these unvaccinated staff resign rather than accept the vaccine, the NHS is going to struggle to replace them. Before these staff are given the ultimatum of getting vaxxed or leaving their job, their should be a more concerted attempt at gentle persuasion- it's quite possible some of these people have things like an aversion to needles, or an unideological nervousness about the vaccine which could be worked through with them. They're not all going to be hardcore anti-vaxxers.

Fambo Number Mive


flotemysost

Quote from: chveik on February 14, 2022, 01:04:42 AMvaccinated people think they can do whatever the fuck they want.

I don't think that's fair necessarily, the vast majority of vaccinated people I know have still adhered to mask wearing, social distancing, regular testing if they're out and about, and isolation in the event of contact/symptoms/testing positive. Unless you mean that's just the message that's been given out by how the vaccine programme, passes, travel rules etc. have been implemented, which is true enough.

Quote from: Astronaut Omens on February 15, 2022, 10:27:38 AMThe loss to the NHS of a trained, skilled and experienced worker will itself have an impact on vulnerable patients- if all these unvaccinated staff resign rather than accept the vaccine, the NHS is going to struggle to replace them. Before these staff are given the ultimatum of getting vaxxed or leaving their job, their should be a more concerted attempt at gentle persuasion- it's quite possible some of these people have things like an aversion to needles, or an unideological nervousness about the vaccine which could be worked through with them. They're not all going to be hardcore anti-vaxxers.

Yeah, I have no idea how it's being handled within individual practices and trusts and god knows they have enough to worry about as it is, but if it's a case of staff being unceremoniously chucked once the deadline rolls around without any chance to discuss with their employer, then that's pretty bleak. I guess individual reticence, especially maybe in the case of ethnic minority staff, is symptomatic of much bigger, more complex issues that aren't realistically going to be adequately addressed within this time frame.

It's also depressing that the vaccine issue is kind of bearing the brunt of the years and years of existing neglect the NHS has suffered, plus Brexit - I'm not saying I agree with how it's been handled, at all, but the idea of urging clinical staff to be vaccinated during a pandemic isn't exactly a wild concept in itself. It's just sad that it's being done in such a seemingly hamfisted way and following so many other grave knocks that it's easy for critics to blame this alone for dealing the lethal blow.

And if staff no longer have to regularly test themselves or isolate, then it'll be as good as pointless anyway (I don't know if that will be the case, but going by a recent conversation with a friend who's a nurse it doesn't sound as if staff know yet either).

Zetetic

A particular issue is also that there are network/contagion effects at work - it's not just people at random taking against vaccination, the sentiment spreads within teams (and likely teams that have existing trust issues).


Buelligan

Trust (or fear) isn't the only issue at play.  I think there are a fair few people who are completely happy to do X thing - until someone insists they do. 

I think Ash Sarkar touched on this in the Novara vid on the subject.  Once you start finger-pointing, judging, bullying, you'll find there are people who will not be pushed around. 

And the more they're pushed, the more likely they are to resist.

And people might say, they shouldn't be like that and maybe they shouldn't.  But, at the same time, one has to ask oneself - what is the positive, what is the pay-off, from creating an us-and-them situation (if it also creates this intransigence)? 

In the vaccine mandate circumstance, I can only see that it gives some sort of righteous pleasure, ganging up and feeling like it's fine and good to act hatefully towards other people.  That's the only "positive", the fun of picking on another group and feeling you're doing the Lord's work.  Because, sure as shit, it doesn't persuade people.

Kankurette

Hi. Vaccinated person/lab rat here. No, I don't take the piss and think I can 'do what I want', thanks.

bgmnts

Quote from: Buelligan on February 15, 2022, 03:40:31 PMTrust (or fear) isn't the only issue at play.  I think there are a fair few people who are completely happy to do X thing - until someone insists they do. 

If they were happy to do it, they wouldn't need to be insisted they do it.

Buelligan

Quote from: bgmnts on February 15, 2022, 03:44:55 PMIf they were happy to do it, they wouldn't need to be insisted they do it.


That's not right, there are plenty of people, myself included, who've been treated incredibly rudely and offensively by people who've decided (for their own unspecified reasons) that they need to be bullied over this.

As far as taking the piss goes, here we are in a pandemic and we've got people booking international family holidays.

bgmnts

Quote from: Buelligan on February 15, 2022, 03:47:04 PMThat's not right, there are plenty of people, myself included, who've been treated incredibly rudely and offensively by people who've decided (for their own unspecified reasons) that they need to be bullied over this.

If the only consequence of someone potentially endangering other people is people being rude to them and not letting them go to the pub or whatever,  think they have gotten off very lightly.

Buelligan

I never go out socially anywhere, because we're having a pandemic. 


Buelligan

Whether they do or not - point is - if you want to persuade people to do a thing, how does judging and bullying them help you to achieve that goal?

And given the earlier convos about people transmitting even when they're vaxxed and so on, if you want to get the hoods on and rope in some unbelievers, have a go at the cunts flying round the planet for shits and gigs first.

chveik

Quote from: flotemysost on February 15, 2022, 01:53:26 PMI don't think that's fair necessarily, the vast majority of vaccinated people I know have still adhered to mask wearing, social distancing, regular testing if they're out and about, and isolation in the event of contact/symptoms/testing positive. Unless you mean that's just the message that's been given out by how the vaccine programme, passes, travel rules etc. have been implemented, which is true enough.

of course i meant the message (although there are a lot thick cunts out there), i got my three doses and i'm still a very good boy.

Kankurette

Just to add: I missed two Space gigs last year because of the COVID risk. As anyone who frequents Oscillations knows, I am a massive Space fan. I was looking forward to the gigs but I was staying with my parents  after one of them and sacked the gig off because I would have been putting them at risk. I haven't been to see Wednesday play since Garry Monk was in charge, I still wear a mask in shops and sanitise my hands and test if I'm visiting older relatives. I'm not that complacent.

Crenners

Quote from: Buelligan on February 15, 2022, 03:57:25 PMWhether they do or not - point is - if you want to persuade people to do a thing, how does judging and bullying them help you to achieve that goal?

And given the earlier convos about people transmitting even when they're vaxxed and so on, if you want to get the hoods on and rope in some unbelievers, have a go at the cunts flying round the planet for shits and gigs first.

Best bit about all this digging the heels in is that people who haven't had the vax are at much higher risk of getting really ill and worse.

It's a completely pointless stance when I've booked holidays to Prague, Faro, Marrakesh and Taipei.

😂😂😂

Buelligan

Quote from: Kankurette on February 15, 2022, 06:27:26 PMJust to add: I missed two Space gigs last year because of the COVID risk. As anyone who frequents Oscillations knows, I am a massive Space fan. I was looking forward to the gigs but I was staying with my parents  after one of them and sacked the gig off because I would have been putting them at risk. I haven't been to see Wednesday play since Garry Monk was in charge, I still wear a mask in shops and sanitise my hands and test if I'm visiting older relatives. I'm not that complacent.

To be clear, in case there is some misunderstanding, shits and gigs (referred to above) means shits and giggles.

katzenjammer


Kankurette

Piers Corbyn probably blames Jews for COVID as well, the bad tit. We live rent free in his head.

flotemysost

He definitely seems to take a pretty flippant approach to the Holocaust going by some of his covid-related campaigning over the past couple of years. Hope they hurry up and reschedule his trial and put him away so I stop having to run into the weird old twat everywhere, he's like shit in a field.

Or as he would (possibly) have it, like a fart in your trousers.

bgmnts

I think just equating any perceived attack on freedom with Nazi Germany is the norm now. Unsure if it makes one dodgy or just hyperbolic and lacking perspective.

gib

Quote from: Buelligan on February 15, 2022, 03:40:31 PMTrust (or fear) isn't the only issue at play.  I think there are a fair few people who are completely happy to do X thing - until someone insists they do. 

I think Ash Sarkar touched on this in the Novara vid on the subject.  Once you start finger-pointing, judging, bullying, you'll find there are people who will not be pushed around. 

And the more they're pushed, the more likely they are to resist.

And people might say, they shouldn't be like that and maybe they shouldn't.  But, at the same time, one has to ask oneself - what is the positive, what is the pay-off, from creating an us-and-them situation (if it also creates this intransigence)? 

In the vaccine mandate circumstance, I can only see that it gives some sort of righteous pleasure, ganging up and feeling like it's fine and good to act hatefully towards other people.  That's the only "positive", the fun of picking on another group and feeling you're doing the Lord's work.  Because, sure as shit, it doesn't persuade people.

bang on the money there