A quiet voice of sanity

[chveik]

Apples and trees

sigh

[Kankurette]

He definitely seems to take a pretty flippant approach to the Holocaust going by some of his covid-related campaigning over the past couple of years. Hope they hurry up and reschedule his trial and put him away so I stop having to run into the weird old twat everywhere, he's like shit in a field.

Or as he would (possibly) have it, like a fart in your trousers.

If Britain was like Nazi Germany, Piers Corbyn and his ilk would be dead. Or locked up. And why is it always Nazi Germany? It's such a lazy comparison.

And making sheep noises at people, shouting at them to take their masks off, harassing people outside clinics and putting up stupid fucking White Rose stickers isn't going to convince people not to get the jab. It works both ways.

[Pink Gregory]

I think just equating any perceived attack on freedom with Nazi Germany is the norm now. Unsure if it makes one dodgy or just hyperbolic and lacking perspective.

Almost out of living memory, so the consequences of bringing it up are falling away.  I wouldn't be surprised if people start invoking it more, rather than less.

[flotemysost]

And making sheep noises at people, shouting at them to take their masks off, harassing people outside clinics and putting up stupid fucking White Rose stickers isn't going to convince people not to get the jab. It works both ways.

Well exactly. I know those people aren't really the subject of this thread, but yeah it's hardly one-sided when it comes to any sort of bullying and finger-pointing.

But also, the vaccine will help protect you from serious illness, that's the purpose of it - it's not hateful or sinister to want people to be safe, regardless of anything about transmission for a moment. I was speaking to a (triple-jabbed) friend who had covid recently, and also had it at the start of the pandemic, and they were saying it was a difference between feeling pretty shit and wiped out for a while but able to recover, and not knowing if they'd survive each night, or ever breathe normally again if they did. I'm sure there are plenty of people who can vouch for similar experiences.

The majority of people urging others to get jabbed aren't thinking of it as any kind of "us and them" tribal thing, or accusing everyone who's not jabbed of being an unhinged conspiracy theorist - it's literally just wanting to help minimise the harm done by this virus, no personal or political beef (although I can very much understand feeling personal anger or frustration towards people refusing to get the vaccine if you've lost someone to the virus, or been seriously ill yourself).

But yeah, I understand that me/anyone saying that as an individual is very different to legally enforced mandates which threaten people with job loss, while failing to engage with why people might be hesitant.

[bgmnts]

Almost out of living memory, so the consequences of bringing it up are falling away.  I wouldn't be surprised if people start invoking it more, rather than less.

Probably.

There was an episode of the Sopranos where Junior tells a judge that having to wear an ankle bracelet and stay at home sounded like Nazi Germany. That was about 15 years ago.

Its just a stupid easy cliché at this point like sheeple. I dont think there's any meaning behind it.

[Kankurette]

Well exactly. I know those people aren't really the subject of this thread, but yeah it's hardly one-sided when it comes to any sort of bullying and finger-pointing.

But also, the vaccine will help protect you from serious illness, that's the purpose of it - it's not hateful or sinister to want people to be safe, regardless of anything about transmission for a moment. I was speaking to a (triple-jabbed) friend who had covid recently, and also had it at the start of the pandemic, and they were saying it was a difference between feeling pretty shit and wiped out for a while but able to recover, and not knowing if they'd survive each night, or ever breathe normally again if they did. I'm sure there are plenty of people who can vouch for similar experiences.

The majority of people urging others to get jabbed aren't thinking of it as any kind of "us and them" tribal thing, or accusing everyone who's not jabbed of being an unhinged conspiracy theorist - it's literally just wanting to help minimise the harm done by this virus, no personal or political beef (although I can very much understand feeling personal anger or frustration towards people refusing to get the vaccine if you've lost someone to the virus, or been seriously ill yourself).

But yeah, I understand that me/anyone saying that as an individual is very different to legally enforced mandates which threaten people with job loss, while failing to engage with why people might be hesitant.

This. And it's also wanting COVID to be over and things to get back to normal ASAP. Also, I have a chronic illness and getting long COVID is something I genuinely do not want, because it would make me even WORSE. Like, sorry for not wanting to end up with even more health problems on top of that AND potentially having cancer (the one I had has 1/3 chance of recurrence, not to mention it runs in my family). I don't care if that makes me a cunt.

[chveik]

fucks sake stop being so disingenuous, no one is attacking you. this thread was about the mandates. also nice to see the typical right wing rag move to equate Corbyn's opinions to his brother's on this forum of all places.

[Crenners]

Let's just say the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree 😂😂😂

[Famous Mortimer]

Just to add: I missed two Space gigs last year

So, it's not all bad

Sorry, I'll stop now.

[Kankurette]

So, it's not all bad

Sorry, I'll stop now.

I also missed Beebadoobee. Was pretty annoyed about that.

And yes, I know I talk about liking Space a lot, and I know they're not a CaB-approved band and I need to listen to black metal or Autechre or whatever instead, but it is relevant to the discussion. It could have just as easily been the Manic Street Preachers, Bob Vylan, a mate's band or Old Man Gloom, the point is that I missed a couple of gigs because of the risk to people I'd be staying with. I'm not completely blase about COVID, though tbh I'm surprised I've not had it yet.

[bgmnts]

Are Space not CaB approved?

[Crenners]

Edit: libellous re: paedophilia

[Buelligan]

Well exactly. I know those people aren't really the subject of this thread, but yeah it's hardly one-sided when it comes to any sort of bullying and finger-pointing.

This means?  Some other, perhaps bigger boys, are doing a bullying at another school? 

And the Corbyn's brother dun it too? 

Come on everyone - I'm not directing this at flotemysost, but every person here.

[Famous Mortimer]

Are Space not CaB approved?

They're as approved as any other band, I'd imagine. I don't like the Cardiacs either, if that makes anyone feel any better.

Of course, everyone loves forum favourites SUTCLIFFE JUGEND

[chveik]

i love the fall

[All Surrogate]

This means?  Some other, perhaps bigger boys, are doing a bullying at another school? 

And the Corbyn's brother dun it too? 

Come on everyone - I'm not directing this at flotemysost, but every person here.

I don't understand your point; could you explain it?

[flotemysost]

This means?  Some other, perhaps bigger boys, are doing a bullying at another school? 

And the Corbyn's brother dun it too? 

I just meant the deliberately provocative, aggressive antivaxxer types who protest in public and directly accost strangers - Piers Corbyn definitely does, I've seen him doing so in person. I wasn't trying to draw a comparison between him and his brother there btw, and I'm not that interested in the fact they're related - I don't have any issue with Jeremy Corbyn based on the (admittedly limited) stuff I know about him, and I agree with a lot of what's in the video in your OP.

Obviously that kind of extreme antivax protest stuff is different kettle of fish to a legally enforced mandate that would threaten people with job loss. I just thought it was still a fair point being made; that harassing strangers (which they've done to me) and plastering the town in very aggressive, sarcastic and provocative stickers mentioning the Holocaust, slavery and child abuse seems very unlikely to make someone suddenly change their mind and think "hang on, maybe I won't get vaccinated after all, now that these people have belittled me and called me stupid!", in the same way that threatening someone with job loss/loss of access to other resources if they don't get vaccinated is likely to be counterproductive in persuading people to get it.

[Buelligan]

What's the point of saying antivaxxers do bullying too - in a conversation about bullying and othering people (and why that's best avoided) - if not to excuse bullying others?

I'm not having a go.  I'm just asking people, generally, if you want to live in a respectful democracy, how getting out the pitchforks (not even against your oppressors, over stuff like vaccines, Brexit, immigration, wokeness, benefits) every time the bosses tell you to, helps.

Does it help with the wider cause (less oppression and a better life for ordinary people)?  Does it help with encouraging more people to get vaccinated?

[flotemysost]

I guess in my case I'm not saying this stuff simply "because the bosses tell me to", it's because I find those people unsettling and threatening when I've encountered them, and I really worry about the distress they could be causing to anyone passing by who's lost someone to covid, as well as all the other hugely offensive stuff they flaunt. And those people who do buy into their misinformation (I'm guessing probably mostly through the internet, rather than stickers etc.) will be putting themselves and others at risk - I don't mean just not getting jabbed, but all the other stuff these groups encourage, going round shopping centres deliberately not wearing masks, protesting in hospitals, etc. But appreciate it's not really that relevant to the vaccine mandate, so I'm sorry for labouring the tangent.

Back to that - I live with NHS workers, one of them works in a clinical role and has spent a lot of the last year or so trying to persuade vulnerable, vaccine-hesitant patients (of which there are quite a few) that getting vaccinated is very likely to give them significant protection against serious illness or death if they get covid, as well as seeing patients suffering from long covid. We've spoken a lot about this stuff, and I know she has little sympathy for any patient-facing colleagues who are still refusing to get vaxxed at this stage if they don't have a medical reason not to - as she puts it, it's just the bare minimum you can do to help protect vulnerable patients (though not the only thing you can do, obviously, and I know she's also understandably really worried about tests and isolation being scrapped). I don't really feel like I'm in a position to argue with that though.

The other is in an admin role (but still has some contact with patients) and was hesitant to get the vaccine last year, not an antivaxxer at all but was just nervous about the novelty of it, as many people have been. She's fully jabbed now, but of course I think it would've been incredibly unjust for her to lose her job point blank over that hesitancy if there was no opportunity or process to discuss it. So I can appreciate it's not a black and white thing.

I also found out recently that a fairly big company in my industry (not my employer) required their staff to be vaccinated if they wanted to return to the office (they're not key workers or public-facing) last summer, and they shared a list of employees' vaccine statuses, which I think was pretty messed up and also just not helpful. At that point last year, younger employees probably wouldn't have been invited to be fully vaccinated yet anyway even if they were planning to get it, and they're the ones more likely to be living in cramped flatshares and struggling to work from home - not to mention the fact that there might be all kinds of very sensitive medical reasons someone couldn't be vaccinated, that they don't exactly want to have to disclose to all their colleagues for fear of being labelled an antivaxxer. That seems like a pretty clear cut example of vaccine rules being used by employers in unnecessarily oppressive ways.

[All Surrogate]

Thanks for that post, flotemysost; even-handed and thoughtful.

[Buelligan]

I guess in my case I'm not saying this stuff simply "because the bosses tell me to", it's because I find those people unsettling and threatening when I've encountered them, and I really worry about the distress they could be causing to anyone passing by who's lost someone to covid, as well as all the other hugely offensive stuff they flaunt. And those people who do buy into their misinformation (I'm guessing probably mostly through the internet, rather than stickers etc.) will be putting themselves and others at risk - I don't mean just not getting jabbed, but all the other stuff these groups encourage, going round shopping centres deliberately not wearing masks, protesting in hospitals, etc. But appreciate it's not really that relevant to the vaccine mandate, so I'm sorry for labouring the tangent.

Back to that - I live with NHS workers, one of them works in a clinical role and has spent a lot of the last year or so trying to persuade vulnerable, vaccine-hesitant patients (of which there are quite a few) that getting vaccinated is very likely to give them significant protection against serious illness or death if they get covid, as well as seeing patients suffering from long covid. We've spoken a lot about this stuff, and I know she has little sympathy for any patient-facing colleagues who are still refusing to get vaxxed at this stage if they don't have a medical reason not to - as she puts it, it's just the bare minimum you can do to help protect vulnerable patients (though not the only thing you can do, obviously, and I know she's also understandably really worried about tests and isolation being scrapped). I don't really feel like I'm in a position to argue with that though.

The other is in an admin role (but still has some contact with patients) and was hesitant to get the vaccine last year, not an antivaxxer at all but was just nervous about the novelty of it, as many people have been. She's fully jabbed now, but of course I think it would've been incredibly unjust for her to lose her job point blank over that hesitancy if there was no opportunity or process to discuss it. So I can appreciate it's not a black and white thing.

I also found out recently that a fairly big company in my industry (not my employer) required their staff to be vaccinated if they wanted to return to the office (they're not key workers or public-facing) last summer, and they shared a list of employees' vaccine statuses, which I think was pretty messed up and also just not helpful. At that point last year, younger employees probably wouldn't have been invited to be fully vaccinated yet anyway even if they were planning to get it, and they're the ones more likely to be living in cramped flatshares and struggling to work from home - not to mention the fact that there might be all kinds of very sensitive medical reasons someone couldn't be vaccinated, that they don't exactly want to have to disclose to all their colleagues for fear of being labelled an antivaxxer. That seems like a pretty clear cut example of vaccine rules being used by employers in unnecessarily oppressive ways.

Just forget the bosses thing.  I obviously haven't been clear enough there (and it's pretty irrelevant to this conversation), I'm sorry, just forget it.

Tell me, how does any of this ^ justify adding more anger to the situation?  How does it justify bullying or othering people you do not know?  How does it encourage people unwilling to be vaccinated to get vaccinated?

[Kankurette]

That's a shocking breach of privacy, wtf.

[flotemysost]

Just forget the bosses thing.  I obviously haven't been clear enough there (and it's pretty irrelevant to this conversation), I'm sorry, just forget it.

Tell me, how does any of this ^ justify adding more anger to the situation?  How does it justify bullying or othering people you do not know?  How does it encourage people unwilling to be vaccinated to get vaccinated?

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear either - I know your questions weren't aimed specifically at me but I'm definitely not trying to justify it, and I know the antivaxxers aren't really relevant here (other than in the sense of contributing to the spread of misinformation and fear, and so probably making the job of convincing some people to be vaccinated more difficult) so I'm sorry for going off about them.

I'm not really making a coherent point here, I guess - just meandering thoughts on a complicated topic. I can appreciate the viewpoint of NHS staff who are frustrated by colleagues still unwilling to be vaccinated, and it's gutting that the stakes in the NHS's survival are already so dire for other, existing reasons, but I don't think the threat of losing even more skilled staff because of a vaccine mandate on top of that is a good idea at all (as well as what that would mean for those staff as individuals, of course, as mentioned above).

Fwiw the scrapping of testing and isolation feels like more of a sore topic with aforementioned people I live with right now (very understandably). I'm getting emotional and angry whenever I talk about it at the moment, and I'm not even directly affected by it in the same way, given I can work remotely - started talking about it with one of them the other day and had to change the subject because it just feels so fucking bleak and unfair. Sorry, another tangent there, but it's just really upsetting.

That's a shocking breach of privacy, wtf.

Yep, especially for an industry that's spent the past couple of years at pains to prove how inclusive it is. I mean I can't really speak for that particular company as I don't work there, but I guess the hypocrisy shouldn't surprise me.