Starmer VIII: Labour will set you free

[dothestrand]

Corbyn. He's not a revolutionary in any way at all. He still appears to believe that you can negotiate with people implacably opposed to absolutely everything you represent, and make progress through electoralism in a system designed from the root up to suppress any effort by ordinary people to change it to serve them, and by people bred to maintain their privilege over a dozen centuries.

He's a decent man, but I don't think he's built for the task ahead.

TBF he's spent today speaking to a pro-Russian TV network in Lebanon pleading for 'peace' and both-sidesing a conflict where one country is trying to obliterate the other.

[Buelligan]

'Peace'?  How awful!

Was it this that you found disturbing?

[dothestrand]

His 'peace' is incredibly naive. Putin doesn't want peace; at least, not unless it achieves his aims. Even Corbyn must know this. You cannot 'both sides' this conflict. Russia is the sole aggressor. They are invading an independent country. Corbyn part-blames the West, as always, because that's the record he's played for several decades now.

[Johnny Yesno]

TBF he's spent today speaking to a pro-Russian TV network in Lebanon pleading for 'peace' and both-sidesing a conflict where one country is trying to obliterate the other.

His 'peace' is incredibly naive. Putin doesn't want peace; at least, not unless it achieves his aims. Even Corbyn must know this. You cannot 'both sides' this conflict. Russia is the sole aggressor. They are invading an independent country. Corbyn part-blames the West, as always, because that's the record he's played for several decades now.

Hark at the international diplomacy expert here.

[Buelligan]

In fairness, it is all very confusing these days.




Even seasoned journalists like Paul Mason and international glove puppets like Keith have got muddled up with their Russian hate figures and enemies of the State.

[Buelligan]

I mean, remember this -

Isn't it a perfect metaphor that Lebedev hired a Corbyn impersonator for his 2019 party, attended by Boris, Mandelson etc? While the elite invented a pretend Corbyn in the pay of Russia, oligarchs had to pay someone to pretend to be Corbyn cos the real one wouldn't play ball.

Incredibly confusing but, at the same time, incredibly simple.  Like 'peace' I suppose.

https://twitter.com/alexnunns/status/1503102435308494849

[idunnosomename]

THE CROBBINS IS WEAK.

WE MUST DESTROY PUTIN

HE CAUSED BREXIT!!!!!!!!!

ASSEMBLE YOUR UKRAINE EMOJIS COMRADES. WE HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE EXCEPT OUR WAITROSE TOTE BAGS

[Johnny Yesno]

I attended Friday prayers at the Seven Sisters mosque in Finsbury Park last week. No one among the 1,500 people at the mosque in Finsbury Park did anything other than condemn what happened to the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon, and they did not want any more deaths. I had the impression that they were also concerned about launching a military attack on Afghanistan, which would not bring back any of those who tragically died in New York or Washington, but would result in civilian casualties and could unleash a chain of events in which this country would be sucked into an Afghan civil war.

In the construction of a global alliance against terrorism, we should think a little more carefully about the human rights records and perceptions of some of the countries that are involved.

When the Prime Minister [Mister Tony Blair] travels to Moscow—I imagine that he is already on his way there—and meets President Putin this evening, I hope that he will convey the condemnation of millions of people around the world of the activities of the Russian army in Chechnya and of what it is doing to ordinary people there. When images of what is happening are translated into other parts of the world, many people are horrified, just as we are horrified by what happened to the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon on 11 September.

If we are serious about the rule of law and human rights, we must be very careful to condemn abuses of human rights, whoever commits them, whoever they are committed against and however uncomfortable or inconvenient it is for us to do so. If we are not consistent, we will, understandably, receive the charge of hypocrisy.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/jeremy-corbyns-2001-warning-about-valdimir-putin-resurfaces-314188/

[Johnny Yesno]

The truth is that no modern politician has been more consistent or more prescient when it comes to Putin than Corbyn. Far from being pro-Putin, Corbyn warned against him when others didn't.

Let's go back more than 20 years to when the British political, intelligence and business establishment united to back Putin to replace Boris Yeltsin as Russia's leader. Putin, who was a prime minister in 1999, won his first presidential elections in 2000.

This was at the height of the second Chechen war (1999-2009), arguably the most savage conflict yet of the 21stcentury, marked by terrible Russian war crimes far worse than have - thus far - been committed in Ukraine. And then - as now - masterminded by Putin. Chechnya was where he established his reputation and first made his mark.

Yet, Tony Blair backed Putin, praising his "focused view of what he wants to achieve in Russia". He made this remark in March 2000, a few weeks after the Battle of Grozny, a brutal battle in which between 5,000 and 8,000 civilians died. A few weeks later, Blair invited Putin to visit Britain and meet the Queen.

I am not criticising Blair. He had understandable pragmatic reasons. There were grounds for believing that Russia needed a strongman after the chaos of the 1990s. From memory, I think most good judges agreed.

But one didn't. Corbyn branded Putin's visit "premature and inappropriate".

The following year, Blair went to Moscow.

Corbyn warned: "We must be very careful to condemn abuses of human rights, whoever commits them, whoever they are committed against and however uncomfortable or inconvenient it is for us to do so. If we are not consistent, we will, understandably, receive the charge of hypocrisy."

In December 2002, Corbyn was one of a small group who opposed the extradition from Britain of Akhmed Zakayev - former prime minister of the unrecognised Chechen Republic of Ichkeria - to Russia.

Corbyn has repeatedly criticised Putin's human rights record with a consistency very few can match. The veteran socialist didn't just raise concerns about human rights, which turned out to be fully justified today, he was also among the first serious critics of Russian money in British politics, long before the cause became fashionable.

Though Corbyn has repeatedly warned of Russian money, one episode is particularly revealing.

As Labour leader in 2018, Corbyn presciently warned: "We're all familiar with the way huge fortunes, often acquired in the most dubious circumstances in Russia, sometimes connected with criminal elements, have ended up sheltering in London and trying to buy political influence in British party politics."

He tellingly added that "there has been over £800,000 worth of donations to the Conservative Party from Russian oligarchs and their associates."

This was at the exact moment that the Conservative Party was entrenching its dangerous and corrupting relations with Putin oligarch. No one in the cross-party British establishment wanted to hear this timely advice.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/russia-ukraine-war-jeremy-corbyn-right-putin-oligarchs

[dothestrand]

The same Corbyn who opposed NATO intervention in Kosovo when the Serbs were committing war crimes, right?

You can predict his default position to a tee. The west is always bad, even when the other guys are seriously worse and committing genocide.

[Buelligan]

You should start a thread about it Martin.

[shoulders]

The same Corbyn who opposed NATO intervention in Kosovo when the Serbs were committing war crimes, right?

You can predict his default position to a tee. The west is always bad, even when the other guys are seriously worse and committing genocide.

Even though in that example the victims were Muslims and the perpetrators were European Christians? Good one mate.

I recall Corbyn opposed not 'intervention', but specifically bombing. That seems reasonable even in hindsight.

He, as always, sought a diplomatic solution to the crisis which was ultimately, regardless of his input what led to the resolution of the conflict, and diplomacy is also ultimately what has prevented another war breaking out even in the face of belligerence.

[Johnny Yesno]

The same Corbyn who opposed NATO intervention in Kosovo when the Serbs were committing war crimes, right?

You can predict his default position to a tee. The west is always bad, even when the other guys are seriously worse and committing genocide.

I thought we were talking about his view of Putin. Or have you accepted you were wrong about that?

I guess you prefer Liz Truss's approach to the conflict.

[king_tubby]

Are Pete and Tonty still great mates with Vlad or have they dialled that back a bit since 2014?

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/04/23/tony-blair-ukraine-putin-_n_5196236.html

Tony Blair Says Forget The People Of Ukraine, Let's Side With Putin

[Bernice]

The same Corbyn who opposed NATO intervention in Kosovo when the Serbs were committing war crimes, right?

You can predict his default position to a tee. The west is always bad, even when the other guys are seriously worse and committing genocide.

From what I can find, he was a signatory to an early day motion condemning the "fraudulent justifications" for the NATO operation, ie "a 'genocide' that never really existed".

It's quite a distasteful thing to have to dig into the semantics of, but I think it's worthwhile. Worth remembering that the NATO operation did not have security council approval and the UN Supreme Court set up there in 2001 did not find genocide, although did of course find there was a "systematic campaign of terror, including murders, rapes, arsons and severe maltreatments".

While it went down as a very successful intervention, I suppose the reason it was being bought up for that early day motion in 04 is the parallels with the Iraq war, with bullshit WMD taking the place of US defence secretaries and ambassadors claiming hundreds of thousands of missing Albanians, insinuating ongoing genocide.

I don't honestly know enough about that conflict either way. I probably should, but I was very young when it happened and the world is very big. I'm not entirely convinced I agree with all of Corbyn's statement on Russia (specifically as regards arms to Ukraine), but I don't know. I do find it interesting and telling that wherever he speaks outside the prescribed boundaries of IA discourse he is so lazily slapped down as a west-hating contrarian appeaser. He always has to be the victim of intellectually lazy attacks while much more bellicose and frankly unhinged voices get a fair hearing.

[Sebastian Cobb]

Skwawkbox reporting that the party tried to give Elaina Cohen 6-figures of hush money.

https://skwawkbox.org/2022/08/02/exclusive-cohen-turned-down-six-figure-gagging-offer-to-pursue-case-that-has-disgraced-starmer/

[Sebastian Cobb]

Kieth Akehurst

https://twitter.com/BobMorris561/status/1554787455144017921

[Buelligan]

Don't show me those things, man.

[BlodwynPig]

TBF he's spent today speaking to a pro-Russian TV network in Lebanon pleading for 'peace' and both-sidesing a conflict where one country is trying to obliterate the other.

Good on him.

[BlodwynPig]

The same Corbyn who opposed NATO intervention in Kosovo when the Serbs were committing war crimes, right?

You can predict his default position to a tee. The west is always bad, even when the other guys are seriously worse and committing genocide.

Schoolyard stuff, this. "other guys" ffs.

[Armed Traffic Warden]

Thought this might be appropriate. If not ignore/delete.



My friend, I know it's cliche,
It's trite and much observed;
But millions walk beside you,
We're just one step more upon the curve.

We do our best to change it,
And be sure we'll never stop;
Because we march forever onward,
As one by one we drop.

As many as have fallen
Are marching up behind;
We march in one direction,
So the blind may lead the blind.

If we are to last the distance,
And touch those caring shores;
We must see that in our enemy,
There's a thousand petty wars.

And though it hurts to fight them,
And it's unfair they need be fought.
With each triumph we grow stronger,
And no Love will count for nought.

Be you fighting with the savage,
Or finding peace inside yourself;
The same horizon draws us nearer,
In Peace and Commonwealth.

Dear Comrade in Humanity,
Let us be that social glue;
That holds the weak with strength,
From the greed of the very few.
Let us remember it's not power,
That keeps us straight and true;
But it's in unity, and purpose,
For them, for me and for you.

[TrenterPercenter]

Not sure if already posted

[shoulders]

https://futureweneed.com/preference/

For those eligible to vote in Labour's internal elections this gives a guide as to which order of preference helps the Left slate get elected.

[Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle]

Even though in that example the victims were Muslims and the perpetrators were European Christians? Good one mate.

I recall Corbyn opposed not 'intervention', but specifically bombing. That seems reasonable even in hindsight.

He, as always, sought a diplomatic solution to the crisis which was ultimately, regardless of his input what led to the resolution of the conflict, and diplomacy is also ultimately what has prevented another war breaking out even in the face of belligerence.

Sometimes diplomacy alone isn't possible.  Especially when dealing with a bully like Putin.

[Johnny Yesno]

Sometimes conflict alone isn't possible. Especially when dealing with a nuclear armed state like Russia.

[shoulders]

I think fighting a proxy war where Europe arms and funds Ukraine to the extent of 10 million people displaced and cities razed to the ground is just pure sensible politics.

[Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle]

I think fighting a proxy war where Europe arms and funds Ukraine to the extent of 10 million people displaced and cities razed to the ground is just pure sensible politics.

Do you think leaving the Ukraine to it and asking Putin nicely to stop his invasion of a sovereign country is also pure sensible politics?

[Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle]

Sometimes conflict alone isn't possible. Especially when dealing with a nuclear armed state like Russia.

I'm glad we agree Johnny!

[Buelligan]

Sometimes diplomacy alone isn't possible.  Especially when dealing with a bully like Putin.

So what would the end game be then, when dealing with a bully like Putin - if we rule out diplomacy?

What are we aiming for here?  Some diplomacy (why?  For what?) PLUS a whole lot of deaths?  Is that the ideal balance?  When dealing with a bully like Putin?

[shoulders]

Do you think leaving the Ukraine to it and asking Putin nicely to stop his invasion of a sovereign country is also pure sensible politics?

Love how this is pitched at 'the razing to the ground of major cities in a military stalemate funded by the west and the displacement of 10 million people might be ok actually'.

Have we just experienced peak centrism?