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Starmer VIII: Labour will set you free

Started by pancreas, March 16, 2022, 08:54:56 AM

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Buelligan

I mean, do the Saudis need arms, to save them from the aggressions of Yemenis?


Quote from: BlodwynPig on August 06, 2022, 10:36:46 AMThe conditions for tyrants to emerge do not happen in isolation. Onward Christian Soldiers...

Yup. 

Quote from: shoulders on August 06, 2022, 12:44:41 PMThere isn't a totally correct side, no.

If a military option was to be deployed then the best strategy would have been to present a wall of resistance among many nations that shocked Putin into abandoning....


How would this of actually worked in practice though? Care to elaborate?

shoulders

Quote from: Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle on August 06, 2022, 02:05:26 PMHow would this of actually worked in practice though? Care to elaborate?

You should know, as that's the only aspect of my opinion you seem to agree with.

Also it's 'have worked' not 'of worked'. People who say 'would of' are mishearing the contraction 'would've'.

#2404
Ok thanks.  How would your idea have worked in practice then?  I'm interested to know more because I don't think you've really thought it through properly from what you've said. 

Buelligan


Bernice

Quote from: pancreas on March 16, 2022, 08:54:56 AMNew thread.

Yes, it's actually now VIII threads, if I've counted correctly.
Tffr.     T.   R. 2,w.  CV.      . B t s


Buelligan

Heheh.  I saw and what's worse, it looks like he's put them on specially.  Like in the car, he thought, need trainers because I'm talking to ordinary types.

Quote

Tory Lord John Mann's wife gets the nod as Labour's Parliamentary candidate for his old seat in Bassetlaw.

Buelligan

What an amazing fucking shit show.  At least it's unlikely, though not impossible, that the electorate of Bassetlaw will have quite such an enormous cunt for an MP again.

Quote from: Buelligan on August 06, 2022, 06:46:25 PMHeheh.  I saw and what's worse, it looks like he's put them on specially.  Like in the car, he thought, need trainers because I'm talking to ordinary types.

lol, dad trabs.

thugler

Quote from: shoulders on August 06, 2022, 12:44:41 PMThere isn't a totally correct side, no.

If a military option was to be deployed then the best strategy would have been to present a wall of resistance among many nations that shocked Putin into abandoning the invasion, and he could have come up with some bullshit to save face. As it is, he has found it slightly harder than he expected but not enough to actually stop.

All that arming and funding Ukraine since then has achieved is a slow grinding campaign destroying its infrastructure and the agriculture Europe depends on, the denial of gas supply wrecking the economy, the displacement of 10 million people. All needless. Yes, Putin bears a grave, overwhelming responsibility for that, but hard choices are coming up.

If you are honestly telling me that further devastation is preferable to a diplomatic one, even a bitter settlement, I have to disagree.

You ask what stops Putin from doing this again, but what are you actually proposing? We aren't invading Russia and Putin is going nowhere. Come to terms with the fact this isn't toppling some tinpot dictator and any such attempt means World War 3. Is that what we're going to put the world through, is that proportionate?

Get around the negotiating table now and stop this before it goes any further. Put everything possible in place to disincentivise any further aggression.

I'm not clear what a wall of resistance looks like in practice, or how it would have worked?

Arming them isn't wonderful, but is the alternative not just allow Russia to take them over entirely and install another puppet? Given their elected leader has decided to resist against that anyway, either we say our hands are tied or arm them.

If Russia was successful in this campaign, and no action was taken to arm Ukraine, yes perhaps the conflict is shorter and that's better in one sense. Does having nukes mean effectively you can invade non nuclear countries with no consequences (yes obviously Russia is not the only one to have done this)

About the 'getting around the negotiating table' part, what would they be negotiating other than giving up parts of their country and handing over power, with threat of obliteration being the bargaining chips.

Funnily enough almost sounds like the standard starmer soundbite when there's a strike on 'i urge both sides to get around the negotiating table and sort this one out'

shoulders

Well then can you describe how the conflict realistically ends in a way that saves Ukraine from devastation and greater political control by Russia. If you can't do that you aren't in position to demand the conflict continues nor criticise others for proposing alternatives to destroying a country's economy, agriculture, infrastructure and displacing its people.

'We can't just let Russia get away with it'. We haven't, have we? But in reality a large powerful country with a nuclear arsenal weren't going to be put off by Ukraine's military plus sporadic Western money and arms. They'd have been put off if all neighboring countries acted like Ukraine were already NATO members at the outset. That is how power works and that is how Putin works.

There were a series of acceptable outcomes for Russia here shy of total control of the nation and people need to accept that this isn't a superhero film and that Russia are going to get one form of those or another. Not accepting that only prolongs the pain and suffering of the people we profess to care about.



Johnny Yesno

First I heard of this was today when someone on twitter posted it in response to it being Alexei Sayle's 70th birthday:


'Labour - The Big Lie': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQXxvZ7fRQY

Buelligan

Thanks for that, Johnny, that's brilliant.  Here is a link to their gofundme page if anyone wants to support continued production.  Help tell the truth and shame these terrible cunts - https://www.gofundme.com/f/labour-the-big-lie 

Maybe think about sharing the links, even if you can't donate - and of course, as they ask at the end, share your stories with them if you have one to tell.

thugler

Quote from: shoulders on Yesterday at 07:10:04 AMWell then can you describe how the conflict realistically ends in a way that saves Ukraine from devastation and greater political control by Russia. If you can't do that you aren't in position to demand the conflict continues nor criticise others for proposing alternatives to destroying a country's economy, agriculture, infrastructure and displacing its people.

'We can't just let Russia get away with it'. We haven't, have we? But in reality a large powerful country with a nuclear arsenal weren't going to be put off by Ukraine's military plus sporadic Western money and arms. They'd have been put off if all neighboring countries acted like Ukraine were already NATO members at the outset. That is how power works and that is how Putin works.

There were a series of acceptable outcomes for Russia here shy of total control of the nation and people need to accept that this isn't a superhero film and that Russia are going to get one form of those or another. Not accepting that only prolongs the pain and suffering of the people we profess to care about.




By choosing to fight back and not just let them take over they have chosen to 'prolong the conflict' regardless of the rights and wrongs of doing that, either they are assisted in doing that or they are not. One of the outcomes is surely that they fight off the invasion at least to an extent. Is it not? Am i being naive? I'm not convinced 'russia wins totally' is the only thing that can happen here, if it was would Ukraine not have surrendered some time ago?

Just because the only 'logical' endpoint of bigger country invades neighboring smaller country is they will likely win eventually, the logical extension of that is noone ever standing in the way of the bigger military powers so as not to prolong conflict. There are however examples in our history of the smaller force managing to repel invasion though are there not?