were Terry Pratchett and Discworld subtly conservative?

[willbo]

I've been re-reading a couple of Discworld books from the library

I always saw them as progressive as a kid/teen, but now I feel like there's a slight conservative or at least pro-conventionality bent to them sometimes

for example the semi-positive portrayal of the Patrician seems like TP is saying "leave evil rich people alone, they're just doing what needs to be done to rule the world"

and he seems to come down on the side of stuffy old ritual institutions (like the Wizards) against those who want social change or to shake things up (such as in the novel Sourcey)

What do you think is there anything in this?
 

[Mister Six]

Nah, not really. An ongoing series of self-contained novels is going to have to be anti-revolutionary at its core, because it needs a consistent (or at least slowly developing) status quo to sustain itself over time (it's the old "Why doesn't Batman just fix crime in Gotham by using his money to end poverty? Because then there wouldn't be a comic" thing). He doesn't come down on the side of the wizards, so much as (after Sourcery) neuter them and make them basically irrelevant to wider society. Pratchett was a cynic, and his view of people with power is that they're fine so long as they're too dim or self-absorbed to actually use that power. So he turned the most ostensibly powerful beings on the Disc (outside of gods) into fusty, lazy academics.

As for the Patrician... the thing is, Pratchett was a cynic, and a cynic is just a frustrated romantic. He had faith in individuals to do the right thing, but not in groups of people to avoid fucking everything up. As any politics lecturer and they'll tell you that the ideal governmental system is a benign dictatorship - they just don't tend to happen, because of the corruptive nature of power and a detachment from the needs of the people.

So in creating Vetinari (like a veterinarian, taking care of a diseased animal, see?) Pratchett built the perfect benign dictator: hyper-intelligent to the point of practically being able to shape Ankh-Morpork through the butterfly effect, highly in tune with the events affecting the common man (he sends Vimes to arrest a man who killed a dog in a marketplace, on the basis that a fellow like that is capable of even nastier things, and sure enough that guy was a serial killer or something equally ghastly), selflessly focused on the betterment of the city's people (whether they knew it or not) and ultimately concerned with justice, despite playing the part of a despot.

Vetinari isn't actually evil (unless you're a mime, which feels like Pratchett exercising one of his own personal irritations for yuks), and in books like Snuff (and maybe Jingo and Fifth Elephant, but I can't remember them so well) he's actively working to improve the lot of people outside of Ankh-Morpork, using Vimes as his proxy.

The point of Vetinari is that rich people could be left alone to rule the world if they were like him. But they're not. So...

And yeah, Pratchett's broadly anti-revolutionary, not because those in power don't need seeing to but because he doesn't trust the masses to replace the system with anything better, or those leading them to resist becoming new dictators (and to be fair - hello Ollie Cromwell, Mao Zedong, Josef Stalin, Kim Il-Sung). I need to re-read Night Watch in comparison with Interesting Times to see how his views on that developed through.

That said, Pratchett's books weren't utterly unproblematic - Interesting Times' happy ending ultimately involves white people taking over an Asian country, and the Wee Free men are every negative Scottish stereotype in one. And the portrayal of trolls as people who were clever in their home countries, but got taken to the Discworld's equivalent of London and became thick criminals addicted to fantasy crack could, uh, be given an interpretation that I'm quite sure Pratchett didn't intend.

On the whole, though, I think Pratchett's books paint an image of him as a deeply humanistic, egalitarian and equality focused individual, especially towards the end of his life, as his books focused on reaffirming the right of intelligent beings (trolls, goblins, golems) to live with dignity, respect and freedom.

[All Surrogate]

... Vetinari (like a veterinarian, taking care of a diseased animal, see?)...

I think that's more a reflex of Medici than anything else, isn't it?

[Mister Six]

I think that's more a reflex of Medici than anything else, isn't it?

Both? The first Discworld Encyclopedia had an interview with Pratchett where the veterinarian thing was raised and he acknowledged it, but I can't recall the details as I read the thing about 25 years ago now...

[Kankurette]

Only in the later books, but I think that was down to Pratchett's declining writing powers.

[Mister Six]

Only in the later books, but I think that was down to Pratchett's declining writing powers.

Which later books? If anything, to me he seems to be losing patience for the status quo and for acts of oppression. There are a lot more "and then everything went back to normal" endings in the earlier books than the later ones.

[willbo]

I suppose the most conservative part from today's POV is the fact that he liked cops (IE the guards/watch) and wrote about them positively.

[evilcommiedictator]

Strictly speaking, I think you're right, but it is as Mister Six says, without that starting point, you don't have the books.
Within the hierarchical fantasy world power exists, and it wants to stay. There's not enough political will in all the myriad groups to get together and change things, but what we can do is explore some of the themes inside this structure, from poverty traps, to the state and monopolies and so on

[Povidone]

Vetinari isn't actually evil (unless you're a mime, which feels like Pratchett exercising one of his own personal irritations for yuks), and in books like Snuff (and maybe Jingo and Fifth Elephant, but I can't remember them so well) he's actively working to improve the lot of people outside of Ankh-Morpork, using Vimes as his proxy.

Jingo for sure, I think that was the first one I read that he featured quite prominently (I read the watch novels completely out of order based on whenever I could get hold of one) and has him getting more personally involved in events than others. Also having him, Colon, Nobby and Pratchett's DaVinci analogue pratting about in a submarine was a lot of fun.

[jamiefairlie]

I love The Watch novels best of all (Moist von Lipwig being my next fav) and the key ingredient is the relationship between Vetinari and Vimes. They need each other, Vetinari needs Vimes to do his 'good deeds' as he cannot be seen to be any less than ruthless, and Vimes needs Vetinari as the political power broker that allows him to do his 'good deeds'. The genius of Vetinari is the way he manipulates the scenario so that both sets of 'good deeds' synchronise. Vimes knows he's being manipulated but he also knows it's the only way he's going to achieve his aims. It's an unsatisfying 'win win' and it's beautifully balanced and intricately plotted.

I think it shows TP's view that Realpolitik is usually the lest worst way to gain gradual incremental improvement in society (or at least avoid the worst crises) and that ideologues usually bring nothing but catastrophe and chaos.

[Mister Six]

I suppose the most conservative part from today's POV is the fact that he liked cops (IE the guards/watch) and wrote about them positively.

I don't know if he liked cops as such, more that he like/wanted to do cop stories.

But I think most people - even those on the far left that aren't anarchists - wouldn't really object to cops if they were actually interested in performing a public service and weren't prone to corruption and misuse of power. And those are the cops Pratchett wrote, by having the Watch rebuilt from the ground up by Vimes (and even then, the lingering shadows of the past remain in lazy Fred Colon and dodgy Nobby Nobbs). It's a cheat, in the same way that Vetinari is a cheat, but just like I don't think you should read Vetinari as approval for dictators, I don't think you should read Vimes's watch as blanket approval for the police.

Pratchett was, as I said, a cynic - but he was able to get around his grim view of reality by writing fantasy - and even then he had to justify those happy endings by inventing Narrativium, an element that makes people's lives play out like stories.

Another cheat. But an honest one.

[Kankurette]

Which later books? If anything, to me he seems to be losing patience for the status quo and for acts of oppression. There are a lot more "and then everything went back to normal" endings in the earlier books than the later ones.

Unseen Academicals. And Snuff, apparently.

[Mister Six]

Unseen Academicals. And Snuff, apparently.

Sorry if I've misunderstood, but are you saying that Snuff is indicative of a conservative mindset?

(I can't really remember Unseen Academicals that well; I'm on a big, haphazard Discworld reread, but I'll get to it eventually.)

[Kankurette]

No, those books were when the series went properly downhill in terms of quality.

[Pavlov`s Dog`s Dad`s Dead]

Isn't the fact that he created so many major female protagonists quite a progressive step in what had been a very male genre? The Tiffany Aching cycle in particular strikes me as an interesting exploration of gender roles, contrasting the difference between the unshowy, hard graft of witchcraft, in which actual magic is a last resort, vs the grandiose, consequences-be-damned projects of the Wizards. And there was the glimmering of a very interesting development in the Shepherd's Crown, despite the fact that it was obviously a very unpolished draft. He clear felt very strongly about getting it out there to be read, even in that state.

[Kankurette]

He was very, very good at writing older women. He gets Tiffany spot on as well.

[Mister Six]

No, those books were when the series went properly downhill in terms of quality.

I thought Academicals was fine, but yeah Snuff was full of lines that just needed a tweak to be properly funny. I haven't read the last two he published after that (Raising Steam and The Shepherd's Crown) yet.

Fuck Alzheimer's.

[samadriel]

Raising Steam has a completely nonsensical ending, the whole book was a lot of fun until

Spoiler alert

the golems use their know-how to... magically provide support to get the train across the gap?

[close]

.  It makes absolutely no sense, I can only conclude that Terry died just before writing the ending, or was too far gone to come up with one, and the guy who was helping him with the final books just had to tie up the loose end with "a wizard did it".  It's still a very enjoyable read up 'til then though.

[earl_sleek]

Raising Steam is the only truly bad Discworld book, it doesn't even read like Pratchett wrote it. The Shepherd's Crown is clearly not quite finished but at least it feels like a Discworld book.

Never understood why Snuff is often considered weaker, it's pretty good late-period Discworld and wouldn't have been the worst one to finish the series on.

[Pavlov`s Dog`s Dad`s Dead]

Raising Steam is the only truly bad Discworld book, it doesn't even read like Pratchett wrote it. The Shepherd's Crown is clearly not quite finished but at least it feels like a Discworld book.

Never understood why Snuff is often considered weaker, it's pretty good late-period Discworld and wouldn't have been the worst one to finish the series on.

I have mixed feelings about Raising Steam. I don't remember it working as a story, and Rincewind's return seemed very shoe-horned in.

That said, I can see why he wanted to tell it: it was clearly his farewell to the Discworld. Industry, in the shape of the steam age, was coming in, and the unspoken corollary is that magic was being driven out (in fact,doesn't one of the elves make that point explicitly? The railway binds the world in iron, which is inimical to magic.) It's the end of Discworld as we, and he, knew it.

However, things are never quite as straightforward as that, and I remember the book as evoking a sense of wonder and, indeed, magic at the beauty and power of steam: he presents the locomotive as almost a living creature in its own right. One era ends, another begins.

In that way, it's a good companion piece to the Shepherd's Crown, which brings the witches' saga to a tantalising pause. I argued above that there is a contrast, if not tension, between the world of the wizards - which I took to represent a masculine-tinged drive towards industry and high-technology: the Discworld techbros. On the other hand, you have the world of the witches, which draws on a much subtler, more feminine reading (while, importantly, not seeing sex as the important determiner). I agree that the Shepherd's Crown told a better story (albeit in a less-polished way), but that maybe reflects my personal preference for the Witches story-cycle over that of the Wizards. But I can definitely see why Pratchett wanted both books out there.

[Mister Six]

Never understood why Snuff is often considered weaker, it's pretty good late-period Discworld and wouldn't have been the worst one to finish the series on.

It was the first (I think) where Pratchett's failing powers were obvious, and so probably stands out more than the two subsequent volumes, even if they're worse. The story and characterisation are fine, but it's full of jokes that don't quite land, phrases that would be pithy if they were tweaked just a little, prose that reads a tad cumbersome. It's not bad at all, but it's noticeably "off", like it needed just one more pass to be polished up properly.

[bgmnts]

Never read any Pratchett, where's a good place to start?

[Inspector Norse]

Never read any Pratchett, where's a good place to start?

At the beginning?

Actually, probably not. If you're specifically wanting to try Discworld, then start a few books in. The first handful are much more comic take-offs of olde style swords-and-sandals fantasy, then after a while the books grew more complex and started taking on more contemporary and literary themes. Wyrd Sisters or Guards Guards might be good start points, as they kick off two of the ongoing series within the series (in that the overall Discworld series followed several different groups of characters/locations, though they do sometimes pop up in each others' books).

Personally I got into him because I loved the Truckers books as a kid, but that might not be where to go now...

[Mister Six]

Never read any Pratchett, where's a good place to start?

Assuming you want to read Discworld (which is where all the peaks of his output lie, so fair enough), I'd avoid the first three actual books (The Colour of Magic, The Light Fantastic, Equal Rites) as even he came to think they were a bit rough as he was figuring out how to write as he went along.

Instead, I'd say go for Small Gods, which is nicely self-contained, full of grand ideas, and (or course) very funny.

If you like that, try a couple of these three: Mort (the Grim Reaper takes on an apprentice), Guards! Guards! (the underfunded and understaffed police on the Discworld's biggest city confront an odd conspiracy involving a dragon) and Wyrd Sisters (three witches must save their kingdom in a clever twist on Macbeth).

If you enjoy those and reckon you're in for the long haul, then you can loop back around to The Colour of Magic and read them in publication order.

There are a lot of overly complicated charts grouping the stories by character and theme, but I think it's more fun to see how the Disc and its societies (and Pratchett's talents) develop over time. Plus, switching from character to character with each new book keeps things nice and fresh.

[willbo]

Never read any Pratchett, where's a good place to start?

Soul music is good if you like music/rock/pop. a lot of jokes in it I didn't get as a kid. moving pictures is a good hollywood spoof too. I think they're good ones to ease you in if you like/know those worlds. Personally i like the first 2 novels, they're just fun fast fantasy comedy adventures.

[Mister Six]

Soul Music and Moving Pictures are what I think of as "Things Discworld" - Pratchett's chosen a theme and is bundling together as many things on those themes (rock music and movies) as he can. It means lots of gags and tortuous puns, which I love, but they're not the most impressive in terms of being "proper" novels (and both of them end in a rather similar way).

Saying this for bgmnts' use as much as anything else - if he doesn't get on with them, I wouldn't say they were representative of Discworld as a whole.

(I'd say most of the Rincwind books are Things Discworld, too, and Witches Abroad, although that one is a bit better balanced and feels a bit more cohesive.)

[PlanktonSideburns]

I recon Small Gods would be your sort of thing bgmnts

[Old Thrashbarg]

Having also somehow never read any Pratchett I've ordered Small Gods based on the above recommendations. Is there any prior knowledge necessary or assumed with it being a book written long after the start of the series? I imagine by that point there must be a fairly well established "universe" (for want of a better word) that doesn't get explained again at the start of each novel, even if the plot within the novel itself is self-contained.

[superthunderstingcar]

That definitely happens eventually, maybe by about 20 books in, when almost every one was the sequel to one or more of the earlier books. But Small Gods is early enough (IIRC 13th?) that Pratchett was still doing a pretty good job of reintroducing the world in each book in case it was somebody's first.

I'd say Mister Six's suggestions are sound, although personally I think Mort is overrated.

[Kankurette]

I'd say in terms of books about specific people/groups: Watch > witches > Death/Susan > Rincewind/wizards. Not sure where I'd put the Moist von Lipwig books. The best Watch books are the ones like Men at Arms where Vimes has the other Watch members to interact with, rather than him just doing stuff on his own.

I'd recommend starting with Guards! Guards! or Men at Arms, as they're set in Ankh-Morpork and quite a lot of the action takes place there. The Colour of Magic is pretty weak.