were Terry Pratchett and Discworld subtly conservative?

[Pavlov`s Dog`s Dad`s Dead]

I'd say in terms of books about specific people/groups: Watch > witches > Death/Susan > Rincewind/wizards. Not sure where I'd put the Moist von Lipwig books. The best Watch books are the ones like Men at Arms where Vimes has the other Watch members to interact with, rather than him just doing stuff on his own.

I'd recommend starting with Guards! Guards! or Men at Arms, as they're set in Ankh-Morpork and quite a lot of the action takes place there. The Colour of Magic is pretty weak.

Speaking of Vimes and Von Lipwig, The Truth is very interesting in the way that it presents a different facet of Vimes, as the establishment enforcer, against the plucky teller of, well, truth. There was criticism upthread of the Watch series as being pro-police. Is Pratchett in fact writing an idealised police force in rebuke to the actually-existing ones? Similarly, the UK press is pretty shit. TBH I can't remember the plot of The Truth well enough to judge whether it's, again, an idealised version/implicit rebuke to Fleet Street. I have the impression that it is always Von Lipwig's fate to bump up against the restrictions set by the establishment.

[Pavlov`s Dog`s Dad`s Dead]

.

[Mister Six]

Having also somehow never read any Pratchett I've ordered Small Gods based on the above recommendations. Is there any prior knowledge necessary or assumed with it being a book written long after the start of the series?

Nah, with the exception of the second book, The Light Fantastic, which follows on directly from The Colour of Magic, all of the books are self-contained and explain all the setup you need, although each series within Discworld (he tended to flit between totally standalone novels and ones with recurring protagonists) tends to build up its own supporting cast and mini continuity, which is why reading in publication order is generally preferred (by me, at least).

Small Gods, though, is totally siloed off from the Discworld books that came before, and while it has some echoes in what follows, you can relax and enjoy it as a self-contained tale.

The other books I mentioned are all the first in their respective series: Mort (the Death series), Guards! Guards! (The Watch) and Wyrd Sisters (the Witches).

[jamiefairlie]

Speaking of Vimes and Von Lipwig, The Truth is very interesting in the way that it presents a different facet of Vimes, as the establishment enforcer, against the plucky teller of, well, truth. There was criticism upthread of the Watch series as being pro-police. Is Pratchett in fact writing an idealised police force in rebuke to the actually-existing ones? Similarly, the UK press is pretty shit. TBH I can't remember the plot of The Truth well enough to judge whether it's, again, an idealised version/implicit rebuke to Fleet Street. I have the impression that it is always Von Lipwig's fate to bump up against the restrictions set by the establishment.

Not fate, MVL has a similar relationship to Vet as Vimes does. V uses him as a tool to move society forward in a way that allows V to stay distant from it, insulating him from the conservative backlash. It's really well observed and written, I love those relationships in the books.

[Andy147]

Speaking of Vimes and Von Lipwig, The Truth is very interesting in the way that it presents a different facet of Vimes, as the establishment enforcer, against the plucky teller of, well, truth. There was criticism upthread of the Watch series as being pro-police. Is Pratchett in fact writing an idealised police force in rebuke to the actually-existing ones? Similarly, the UK press is pretty shit. TBH I can't remember the plot of The Truth well enough to judge whether it's, again, an idealised version/implicit rebuke to Fleet Street. I have the impression that it is always Von Lipwig's fate to bump up against the restrictions set by the establishment.

The protagonist of The Truth is William de Worde, not Moist Von Lipwig.

[Old Thrashbarg]

That definitely happens eventually, maybe by about 20 books in, when almost every one was the sequel to one or more of the earlier books. But Small Gods is early enough (IIRC 13th?) that Pratchett was still doing a pretty good job of reintroducing the world in each book in case it was somebody's first.

I'd say Mister Six's suggestions are sound, although personally I think Mort is overrated.

Nah, with the exception of the second book, The Light Fantastic, which follows on directly from The Colour of Magic, all of the books are self-contained and explain all the setup you need, although each series within Discworld (he tended to flit between totally standalone novels and ones with recurring protagonists) tends to build up its own supporting cast and mini continuity, which is why reading in publication order is generally preferred (by me, at least).

Small Gods, though, is totally siloed off from the Discworld books that came before, and while it has some echoes in what follows, you can relax and enjoy it as a self-contained tale.

The other books I mentioned are all the first in their respective series: Mort (the Death series), Guards! Guards! (The Watch) and Wyrd Sisters (the Witches).

Excellent, thanks both. Very much looking forward to my long-overdue first dip of the toe.

[Andy147]

Nah, with the exception of the second book, The Light Fantastic, which follows on directly from The Colour of Magic, all of the books are self-contained and explain all the setup you need.

Lords and Ladies isn't entirely self-contained, but it does explain the set-up you need (mainly, a plot summary of Wyrd Sisters) in the Author's Note at the front.

Said note gives Pratchett's view on the matter: "By and large, most Discworld books have stood by themselves, as complete books. It helps to have read them in some kind of order, but it's not essential."

[Mister Six]

Excellent, thanks both. Very much looking forward to my long-overdue first dip of the toe.

Hooray, let us know how it goes!

Lords and Ladies isn't entirely self-contained, but it does explain the set-up you need (mainly, a plot summary of Wyrd Sisters) in the Author's Note at the front.

Said note gives Pratchett's view on the matter: "By and large, most Discworld books have stood by themselves, as complete books. It helps to have read them in some kind of order, but it's not essential."

Generally he does that in the story itself, though - providing a little summary of what you need to know in the narration. I'm surprised he didn't do that in LaL, actually, although I don't think I've read it in well over 20 years.

[Pavlov`s Dog`s Dad`s Dead]

Not fate, MVL has a similar relationship to Vet as Vimes does. V uses him as a tool to move society forward in a way that allows V to stay distant from it, insulating him from the conservative backlash. It's really well observed and written, I love those relationships in the books.

Yes, I'd largely agree with that. Probably I should have said his role, rather than his fate.

I reckon there's an argument that the "things" books mentioned earlier (Soul Music, Moving Pictures) are the Protean versions of the MVL books. At some point, Pratchett realised he could do so much more interesting things when he introduced modern social phenomena into Discworld. There is a huge gulf in quality between these two subsets in the series.

[Pavlov`s Dog`s Dad`s Dead]

The protagonist of The Truth is William de Worde, not Moist Von Lipwig.

Hah, I told you I couldn't remember the plot very well... There's certainly a case to be made that it belongs in the same subset as the MVL books, though.

[Mister Six]

Yes, I'd largely agree with that. Probably I should have said his role, rather than his fate.

I reckon there's an argument that the "things" books mentioned earlier (Soul Music, Moving Pictures) are the Protean versions of the MVL books. At some point, Pratchett realised he could do so much more interesting things when he introduced modern social phenomena into Discworld. There is a huge gulf in quality between these two subsets in the series.

Spoilers for Soul Music, Moving Pictures, Going Postal, Making Money and Raising Steam

The MVL books have the advantage that Pratchett had committed to the Disc undergoing an industrial revolution by that point, and so the changes introduced in them could actually persist, whereas Soul Music and Moving Pictures in particular suffer a bit because all the toys have to be put back in the box by the end.

[close]

[Povidone]

Very rarely cast a harsh critical eye over Pratchett's writing so interested in the critiques of his later books. Need to re-read Raising Steam again as Im not remembering the story so much as certain plot beats and characters (probably an indication of it not being a very well focused story) but I really like Snuff for reasons I can't entirely fathom...it makes me think of British murder mystery programmes that I never watched and dont care about in an affectionate way (im well aware this is a bizarre statement but I cant think if a better way to describe it) and there is some interesting examaination of rural lifestyles...how the countryside actually works behind the postcard ideal. Had too much Metaxa to properly finish these thoughts

[Glyn]

Said note gives Pratchett's view on the matter: "By and large, most Discworld books have stood by themselves, as complete books. It helps to have read them in some kind of order, but it's not essential."

I wish this was more widely known. Sadly I think a lot of people get intimidated by the sheer size of the series and their idea of 'fantasy' being hugely intertwined epics that need maps, family trees and hundreds of footnotes to follow . You'd have to be very unlucky to pick up a Discworld book that you couldn't enjoy by itself.

Just wanted to add another thumbsup for the MVL books. Even though a few of them have rather similar plots they always felt to me like a burst of energy when some of the other later books were sagging a bit. It helps that they gave Pratchett an excuse to show off everything he'd learnt about the Victorians. He was often at his best when you can tell he's just read a new book about how the sewer system was built.

[Kankurette]

Speaking of Vimes and Von Lipwig, The Truth is very interesting in the way that it presents a different facet of Vimes, as the establishment enforcer, against the plucky teller of, well, truth. There was criticism upthread of the Watch series as being pro-police. Is Pratchett in fact writing an idealised police force in rebuke to the actually-existing ones? Similarly, the UK press is pretty shit. TBH I can't remember the plot of The Truth well enough to judge whether it's, again, an idealised version/implicit rebuke to Fleet Street. I have the impression that it is always Von Lipwig's fate to bump up against the restrictions set by the establishment.

I'm pretty sure William de Worde and co are the good guys in that and the Watch aren't antagonists per se, but obstructive.

[Mister Six]

There was criticism upthread of the Watch series as being pro-police. Is Pratchett in fact writing an idealised police force in rebuke to the actually-existing ones?

I think so. I can't remember if I said this earlier in the thread and can't be bothered checking, but Pratchett (who was actually a very cynical and critical guy) had a clever get out in Discworld thanks to Narrativium, the sixth element of the Discworld (after earth, air, fire, water and surprise), which imposes story rules on the planet and its inhabitants.

Which basically gives him an out to ignore his own cynicism and allow for happy endings - and to make characters like Vetinari and Vimes, who in the real world would be bent or broken by the system, but on the Disc get to come out on top.

[Mister Six]

Excellent, thanks both. Very much looking forward to my long-overdue first dip of the toe.

No pressure, but do let us know what you think when you give Discworld a try (even if you're not a fan).

[Pavlov`s Dog`s Dad`s Dead]

I'm pretty sure William de Worde and co are the good guys in that and the Watch aren't antagonists per se, but obstructive.

Yes, I'd tend to agree with that. I really should re-read it, I suppose, given that* I couldn't even remember who the protagonist was. Speaking of which,  are we sure WDW isn't really MVL hiding behind a Shakespeare wig and a nom de plume that is weak by Pratchett's standards? He doesn't usually go in for Happy-Families-style, or even Dickensian, character names.

* Speaking of misremembering plotlines, on re-reading "I Shall Wear Midnight", I realised I'd invented a completely different, antagonistic, relationship between Tiffany and Granny Weatherwax to the relationship shown in the book.

[Virgo76]

Why is it called Ankh Morpork?
What does that mean? I know it's a name, but why?
It feels like a joke I'm not getting.

[Shaxberd]

The first couple of Discworld books were straightforward parodies of sword and sorcery fiction, I don't think there's anything more complex to Ankh Morpork than "silly made up name". If it's referring to anything in particular it's probably Lankhmar from Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and Grey Mouser stories.

[Mister Six]

Yeah, I think it's just a couple of words that sound good together. An ankh being an ancient Egyptian symbol of eternal life, of course, and a morpork being a kind of owl (both of which feature on the Ankh Morpork crest).

[MojoJojo]

Soul Music and Moving Pictures are what I think of as "Things Discworld" - Pratchett's chosen a theme and is bundling together as many things on those themes (rock music and movies) as he can. It means lots of gags and tortuous puns, which I love, but they're not the most impressive in terms of being "proper" novels (and both of them end in a rather similar way).

They're both very similar in general plot/concept - to the extent when I'm feeling negative about Pratchett I see Soul Music as him running out of ideas and doing Moving Pictures 2. Obviously he hadn't run out of ideas but the basic concept - a popular media from our world starts in the Discworld, becomes immensely popular then takes on a life of it's own, is the same.

[Imperator Helvetica]

Why is it called Ankh Morpork?
What does that mean? I know it's a name, but why?
It feels like a joke I'm not getting.

Apparently, it's from Pratchett spending time in Lancaster. A gangly bookshop owner there being the inspiration for the Librarian.

There used to be a big sign celebrating the Lancs-Morecambe Region.

Morecambe = Mork-Ham = More Pork. Drop the L from Lancs and you have Ankh Morpork.

That was the scuttlebutt around town at any rate.

[Mister Six]

Did you end up reading any Pratchett, @bgmnts?

[bgmnts]

Not yet. I do have it in my collection though, up there with my comics, Dumas, Ligotti, various non fiction and some other one offs. Lot of stuff to get through!

[Mister Six]

Fair enough, same here! I keep buying second hand books when I really need to just put them on hold and actually read the damn things.

[JesusAndYourBush]

I'm in the middle of reading Jingo and it amused me that about two thirds of the way through the book the dialogue "Why are you wearing a sheet?" / "It's a burnous" is lifted from a John Lennon interview on Kenny Everett's radio show.

[Das Reboot]

What's everyone's thoughts on The Long Earth series? I read the first three some time ago and found them quite enjoyable and an interesting premise. Still not got around to reading the last two.

Some of the characters have definite parallels with Discworld counterparts. The airship captain has definite Vimes vibes about her. I'm intrigued how the mechanics of the Pratchett/Baxter partnership worked, though I sense it may have been the case of Terry lobbing in ideas while Stephen did the legwork.

[Old Thrashbarg]

No pressure, but do let us know what you think when you give Discworld a try (even if you're not a fan).

Many months later I have finally started reading Small Gods. Only about 30 or so pages in so far, but very much enjoying the style. I wasn't expecting it to feel quite as much like Douglas Adams - not to accuse Pratchett of imitating or anything, I've obviously not read anywhere near enough to know how his voice develops. And I'd be quite happy for the feeling of similarity to remain. It'll probably be slow progress as I don't find much time to settle down with a book, but I am looking forward to continuing and then moving on to more of his work.

[Mister Six]

Hooray! I hope you continue to enjoy the books.