Shane Meadows appreciation

[Magnum Valentino]

He seems like the most natural successor to Clarke to not have worked with him, particularly when you consider the likes of Boyle, Oldman and Winstone going off to shiny shiny Hollywood.

[checkoutgirl]

but there's clearly more affection for the working class whereas with Leigh they're often presented as caricatures, grotesques even

You could certainly argue Meadows comes from a less satirical, more earnest place about these people but I'm not sure why that matters as there's room for both. There are riches in the work of Meadows and Leigh and if you've seen the state of the cinema selection lately they should both be encouraged as much as possible.

[checkoutgirl]

going off to shiny shiny Hollywood.

Yeah Meadows deserves plaudits and respect for staying true to his convictions and making good things rather than fucking off to Hollywood but then again, that's not his bag anyway.

[Brundle-Fly]

It's an interesting point but I think that scene was consensual and the fact that it was consensual indicated her state of mind at the time. She had a trauma and her response was to try and blot it out with hard drugs and being used like a doll by a gang of disgusting crusty blokes in a caravan.

It's pretty horrible but stuff like that does happen. The camera work was kind of blurred and shaky so maybe I missed the bit that showed her not consenting. But even if that was shown, she might have put herself in that situation knowing it could have got out of hand but did it anyway, like she wasn't thinking straight or something. It's kind of murky in my mind and it does ask some unpleasant questions.

I think they knew exactly how it would pan out and used her initial intoxication to their advantage. Anyway, I won't dwell on it. I just found it rather cruel storytelling considering how much Lol and Combo sacrificed to protect her from the father in TIE '86.

[There Be Rumblings]

It's an interesting point but I think that scene was consensual and the fact that it was consensual indicated her state of mind at the time. She had a trauma and her response was to try and blot it out with hard drugs and being used like a doll by a gang of disgusting crusty blokes in a caravan.

That was my read on it too. That she let it happen in the moment, but the morning after just felt absolutely disgusting about it and full of regret. It's an incredibly difficult scene to watch though, amplified by the nightmarish soundtrack.

[sevendaughters]

I wouldn't characterise it as cruel as such, I've seen elder siblings take a serious trauma to save a younger one who doesn't seem to appreciate or understand, and mistakes the pain for distance and goes off the rails a bit. It's hard to sum up, I think Meadows really hit on quite a complex emotional chord there.

[checkoutgirl]

amplified by the nightmarish soundtrack.

That's something I noticed about The Virtues. In the last episode as things are coming to a head, the music is designed to induce tension. It reminded me of the soundtrack of Irreversible where Gaspar Noé explained the noise being generated was researched and specifically designed to cause nausea in the viewer. As if what was happening on screen wasn't enough.

[Brundle-Fly]

I wouldn't characterise it as cruel as such, I've seen elder siblings take a serious trauma to save a younger one who doesn't seem to appreciate or understand, and mistakes the pain for distance and goes off the rails a bit. It's hard to sum up, I think Meadows really hit on quite a complex emotional chord there.

I guess so. Meadows can be a bit bleak at times, especially when it comes to sexual matters.

[madhair60]

I call him S-Mead

[Sebastian Cobb]

Anyone want to talk about the TV This is Englands and their occasionally unbelivable elements? Probably the worst of it is that extended plot where Gadge hooks up with your one Trudy and Meggy's son is there, dressed like a little Meggy, which seems to go on for ages. But then there's Woody's boss popping out of the corner unit in the first episode of 1990 that plays like a comedy sketch. There's a hallucinatory aspect to some of the TV scenes which runs the gamut from effective (the scenes with Mick's ghost are evidence that Shane would be a fantastic horror director) to underwhelming (turning up at that lad with the hot tub's house for ANOTHER party montage) to almost ruinously bad (Woody on the phone to his auld pair with the split screen going from him and his dad Pete Durant to him and his dad and his mum to him and his dad and his mum AND the TV screen). It's a mixed bag but the highlights of 88 and 90 are amongst the best work of his career, and most of the cast (Gilgun and Socha in particular) are always on top form.

There's also that scene with the two knobheads nobody likes because they bullied Sean at some point, that scene in the social club where they're shagging someone on a pool table and one of them isn't allowed to look so has to wear the triangle over his eyes.

[Sebastian Cobb]

Have any of you Virtues fans seen Calm With Horses btw? It's not a Meadows film but it's good and stars Niamh Algar.

[paddy72]

Have any of you Virtues fans seen Calm With Horses btw? It's not a Meadows film but it's good and stars Niamh Algar.

Yes, I loved that – one of my faves of 2019.

[Oh, Nobody]

I call him S-Mead

What do you call Syd Mead?

[There Be Rumblings]

There's also that scene with the two knobheads nobody likes because they bullied Sean at some point, that scene in the social club where they're shagging someone on a pool table and one of them isn't allowed to look so has to wear the triangle over his eyes.

Didn't the dialling up of the comedy elements in the TV series' align with Jack Thorne coming on board as co-writer for TIE '86? You can definitely see Thorne's Skins influence starting to seep into it from that point.

The original film had its 'aren't the gang whacky' moments, like the hunting scene, but the tone really started to go all over the place when the first series started, with the extended slo-mo debauchery scenes and whole plotlines and characters being played purely for laughs. These were now outright comedy set pieces, rather than the funny but believable character moments that had come before that. The difference in tone between, say, Gadget and Lol's plotlines in '86 made them feel like they belonged in two completely different programmes being written separately by two different people, rather than as part of a cohesive whole being created by two co-writers working together.

You could argue that the juxtaposition of the light-heartedness of one made the emotional gut punch of the other even more powerful, but on re-watch it still jars a bit for me. I much prefer the out and out believability of the film and the power of the Lol/ Mick/ Trev/ Kelly/ Combo storylines in the series.

And on a separate but related point, Vicky McClure's performance in the series is just astounding. I hope she works with Meadows again, because none of her follow-up work has got near the heights of how she portrayed Lol. She is just incredible in it.

[madhair60]

What do you call Syd Mead?

Meadmeister

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

Futurist Syd Mead.

He's prejudiced against stuff that hasn't happened yet.

[shiftwork2]

I rewatched Dead Man's Shoes a few weeks ago and it stands up.  A few plotting head scratchers notwithstanding (why does the man in the defaced jacket carry on wearing it, why didn't the spiked characters taste it in their tea), a really satisfying mooch about.

I really must revisit The Virtues.  The first episode when Graham's character visits the pub and befriends everyone with a sad manic energy has haunted me since I first saw it.

[Magnum Valentino]

Mad craic hearing about Shane's generosity coming out on the extras. Have just learned Frank Harper wrote the speech he delivers in This Is England after turning up for his one day of filming and was astounded to find out that THAT confrontation in the street between Woody and Milky was neither written nor planned at all - he'd purposely kept the cast apart for the filming of '88 and they weren't informed they were going to meet on that street when the cameras were rolling. He just threw them together and trusted that what he needed would come out. Everybody was in tears afterwards and rightfully so, that's some powerful fucking art that comes out of Joe Gilgun in that scene in particular.

There are other examples across those three series where his generosity is misplaced - there's no reason for some of those characters to be there other than the big family feel he has going on his sets - but when his process works, absolutely no-one can touch him. I'm so glad The Virtues was made as it means it's easy to say "Best British Filmmaker" without the caveat that his last project was shit, as with 86 and Made of Stone.

He IS the best.

[Twit 2]

(why does the man in the defaced jacket carry on wearing it, why didn't the spiked characters taste it in their tea)

As someone who's spiked their own drink with bitter compounds, I can confirm that a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down.

]I really must revisit The Virtues.  The first episode when Graham's character visits the pub and befriends everyone with a sad manic energy has haunted me since I first saw it.

Alcoholic friend I cut off recently had the same manic, drunken energy when befriending people in the pub so I found this very close to home.

[There Be Rumblings]

Inspired by this thread I finally got around to watching the This Is England series DVD extras. A few interesting bits of trivia that other people might already know, but I didn't:

- Kayvan Novak was in the cast for the series. He had a scene in Mr Sandhu's video shop that ended up being cut

- Andrew Shim (Milky) is nails in real life. He is a mixed martial artist who has done several actual cage fights

- Joe Gilgun (Woody) and Vicky McClure (Lol) were actually in a romantic relationship

- One of the coppers who goes barrelling in during the fight scene between the two gangs was played by Ian Brown

- An alternative ending to TIE '88 was shot where

Spoiler alert

Lol died

[close]

- Helen Behan, who played the nurse, wasn't an actress, she was a nurse in real life. She spotted Shane Meadows in a pub and asked him if she could be in something of his, and he cast her as a result. So she had no acting experience at all, but was so good in TIE that he then went on to cast her as one of the leads in The Virtues

- Woody's 'Lol' tattoo is real - Joe Gilgun had it done on a drunken night out during filming

So yeah. ShaneMeadowsTruFax.

[sevendaughters]

I've watched one his amateur MMA fights. he's not a worldbeater or anything but he's pretty durable and not shit.

[Magnum Valentino]

Shim and McClure went out for a while as well. Listen to her and Gilgun's commentary on episode 3 of 88, it's really good.

Just waiting on the 2 disc Midlands in the post so I can watch Shane's World and I'll have watched everything from Twenty Four Seven til now with commentaries and extras. Don't regret this wee project one bit, it's been ace, even the stuff like 86 and The Virtues that I've been worried about.

[AzureSky]

Does anyone think it's Chris Morris doing the news report on This Is England? It really does sound like him , plus there is the Warp Films connection.

[Magnum Valentino]

Yeah, I do. Mark Herbert actually lets something slip on the commentary that he got the audio "from Chris", and that it was from his own archive, as it sounds like he sort of says it by accident.

Only thing is, the actual reporter was also called Christopher Morris so I might be stretching a bit on that one, but there's no mistaking "our" Chris's voice.

[paddy72]

Shim and McClure went out for a while as well. Listen to her and Gilgun's commentary on episode 3 of 88, it's really good.

Just waiting on the 2 disc Midlands in the post so I can watch Shane's World and I'll have watched everything from Twenty Four Seven til now with commentaries and extras. Don't regret this wee project one bit, it's been ace, even the stuff like 86 and The Virtues that I've been worried about.

Did you watch the Gavin Clark doc? What did you make of that?

[Magnum Valentino]

Fuck! I forgot about the stuff that's not on disc! I'll give that a look in the next couple of days.

Also I didn't bother with the Stone Roses documentary, because I hate them.

[paddy72]

Fuck! I forgot about the stuff that's not on disc! I'll give that a look in the next couple of days.

Also I didn't bother with the Stone Roses documentary, because I hate them.

It's very good. And very sad, obviously.

[holyzombiejesus]

It's very good. And very sad, obviously.

When it gets to the second album?

[paddy72]

When it gets to the second album?

Just the whole thing of him slowly finding the confidence to play again, and seeing that in retrospect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVJBYBUabbU&t=5s

[Magnum Valentino]

When it gets to the second album?

I AM SORRY IF I HAVE STEPPED ON YOUR GOOD JOKE but if it's not a joke we're talking about the short film he made about his friend Gavin Clark, who's since died, not the Roses one.

I did laugh though, if that was your intention.