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Started by Dr Rock, August 06, 2022, 10:23:48 AM
Quote from: Video Game Fan 2000 on August 06, 2022, 01:37:09 PMThe mythology I'm talking about is dependent on the idea that progress is tied to social order and a cheerily maintained hierarchy. Ideologically I think it depends on making England exceptional within the British Isles as Britain is exceptional in the world. There's probably a lot of "body politic" stuff still kicking around, with southern English cities as the leader or head of the nation and the rest as the muscle and backbone. England's supposed stewardship or industrial driving of the other British nations allegedly mirror how Britain as a whole was somehow responsible for the fate of the entire world. Hey Ireland, Scotland and Wales: you have your place at the head of the great system, so understand that other nations have their place in the wider order. So don't lets have you express any sympathy for Indians or or Africans. You speak our language, don't you? Which is another point: the focus we've had over last decades on "national identity" English v British, as a cultural rather than economic legacy of Empire, has do a great deal to obscure the fact that colonial racism was expressed as much through language as skin colour or national borders. The more Englishness is tied to language, a mercantile language prized for perspicacity, the harder it is to take a critical look at the ideological frame that leads narrower questions of culture and identity because the alleged "clarity" of English itself is inseperable from sedimented philosophical prejudice and the repressions that prejudice served to justify.
Quote from: Terence Bowl on August 06, 2022, 01:28:11 PMAre you getting the war of independence mixed up with the American civil war?
Quote from: Dr Rock on August 06, 2022, 03:17:28 PMOk but yer average Brit didn't know what was going on in the colonies. The average Brit would not have seen other human beings bought and sold and whipped and being treated as slaves were in the southern US states unless you go back many centuries and even then, it wasn't based on naked racism.
Quote from: Dr Rock on August 06, 2022, 12:45:10 PMyet I can't think of any British films about how shit it was to be a serf.
Quote from: Dr Rock on August 06, 2022, 03:17:28 PMOk but yer average Brit didn't know what was going on in the colonies. The average Brit would not have seen other human beings bought and sold and whipped and being treated as slaves were in the southern US states unless you go back many centuries and even then, it wasn't based on naked racism. What the nobility or the slave trade industry did wasn't part of most Brits lives. What was, was workhouses, or being a prostitute in olde London Town, or Serfdom or being press-ganged into the navy. Your average 'working class peasant' was at the bottom of a rigid class system and was shat on from all directions. Lets make a distinction between those at the top profiting from the slave trade, and those at the bottom (where I imagine me and mine would've been) who bore no responsibility, and had it fucking rough themselves.
Quote from: Dr Rock on August 06, 2022, 06:21:59 PMI'm genuinely curious as to what yer average person especially a peasant/poor person in the 17-1800s knew about anything. Depends where they lived to some extent, as has been mentioned. There was a slave trade, there were abolitionists against the slave trade, and those who didn't know about either because they worked down the pit or on a farm.
Quote from: Noodle Lizard on August 06, 2022, 06:33:53 PMIs there something someone's said recently that'd make you think this? If anything, the Americans I've met have spoken as if America was the only nation with that burden.I can imagine some saying the British Empire was worse pound for pound, but they're not wrong. We had a big headstart.
Quote from: TrenterPercenter on August 06, 2022, 06:26:00 PMsomething that might interest you.https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/transactions-of-the-royal-historical-society/article/slavery-and-the-birth-of-workingclass-racism-in-england-18141833the-alexander-prize-essay/3EE614F0996A6C28F811E272195A42C2
Quote from: Noodle Lizard on August 06, 2022, 06:33:53 PMIs there something someone's said recently that'd make you think this?
Quote from: bgmnts on August 06, 2022, 07:17:16 PMPresumably pound for pound France has to be up there as well.
Quote from: Buelligan on August 06, 2022, 07:22:19 PMPretty sure we had a peoples' revolution which put paid to a lot of this stuff about a century before the Americans and Brits.
Quote from: bgmnts on August 06, 2022, 07:28:10 PMWell it took Haiti about 10/15 years to overthrow the French even after the French revolution I think. Didn't even give up Algeria til what? 60s?
Quote from: Buelligan on August 06, 2022, 08:59:23 PMAlgerian colonialism was very wrong, obviously, but I thought you were talking about slavery. I misunderstood. And the Haiti situation was in a world before things like peoples' revolutions were online. I'm sure the rich ruling class in Haiti was glad of that.
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