Edinburgh Fringe: Jerry Sadowitz show cancelled by venue bosses

[Twilkes]

Jim Davidson and Chubby Brown and their material peddle to the masses but Sadowitz doesn't?

[Mobbd]

I'm not familiar with Sadowitz's work but I'm aware of his reputation, but it's set me thinking.

If a venue changed its mind on hosting Jim Davidson or Roy Chubby Brown, I think most leftish people would go "yeah, fair enough".

Whereas the vibe I'm getting here is that while the culture warriors are wrong as usual, the Pleasance also made a bad call. So what makes Sadowitz different from other deliberately offensive comedians? Is it that we know he doesn't mean what he says? As the same could be said for Jimmy Carr but the consensus here seemed to be that he's a twat and he deserved the criticism he got for his joke about Romany people, for example.

Not sealioning or trying to shit stir - just interested in people's takes on it.

I've been chewing this one over this morning too. I think it ultimately comes down to liking the comedian or not. I don't like Jim Davidson because it would be like watching a relatively powerful wealthy white guy who has chosen hate and assumes we feel similarly. Sadowitz (whom I've always loved) is more like watching an unhinged psychopath nihilist. It's different, I'm certain of it. Whether it's OK anymore or not probably remains up for discussion.

My thinking about this started with the idea that I check my morals at the door when going to see Jerry, but that's not true at all. The whole act is guided by a Liberal moral code. It's only funny because its outrageous and it's only outrageous because of a personal moral code.

Not saying I've figured this all out but it's a start, eh?

Chubby and Davidson are grifting cunts with horrible personal standards. Jerry, whatever he really believes (nothing probably) is a force of nature. Everyone here knows his story about the Glasgow gangsters, yeah?

[imitationleather]

Sadowitz takes the piss out of himself and makes jokes about how inadequate he is, which you can never imagine Jim Davidson doing.

[sevendaughters]

Aside from a gigantic gulf in terms of wit, the difference is that Chubby and Davidson do racist and offensive jokes and think they're apolitical and "just jokes" whereas Sadowitz's work is about probing the boundaries of offence utilising an exaggerated form of irony. All three could probably do the line "Nelson Mandela, what a cunt" but you'd be left in no real doubt over which two actually thought it.

Sadowitz's weakness is also his strength: he's such a genuinely outsider splenetic bastard of a performer that he frequently crosses the professionalism/detachment line that comedians often like to stand behind to claim some kind of plausible deniability (ie. Gervais, Chapelle). It's what makes the laughs on his good nights physically hurt his audience, and what makes the sourness on his bad nights come across like an EDL rally as somersetchris says.

Context is always important and in the 3 or 4 sets of Sadowitz I've heard have basically featured him making himself the butt of the joke; his self-loathing is ugly and manifest, he jokes about his tiny cock, his repeated failure and bridge-torching.

It's why I'm loath to make any kind of judgement, really. He might have had an off night, gone too far, had the wrong kind of audience member in, upset a patron or executive, etc. It shouldn't be a surprise that people occasionally ban Sadowitz because his worldview is about finding that line and radically exploiting it - sometimes for good (Savile) and sometimes for evil. He is chaotic neutral personified.

There's a pathetic part of me that wants him to be embraced by the Unleashed lot because I am sure he'd exhaust all his mental energies trying to break those people too. Sadowitz doesn't do being loved, he isn't in this to make friends, and while I find his art frustrating and sometimes a bit much for my milquetoast sensibilities, I retain lots of respect for him just being out there alone these days.

[oggyraiding]

Seen him twice, I find him funny in his audacity, but it makes me think, if Andrew Doyle or Mark Dolan came out with that sort of stuff, would I find it offensive? Is it because I'm a smug liberal that Sadowitz saying awful stuff is subversive and challenging, while Jim Davidson saying awful stuff is right wing punching down? One of the times I went to see him with friends, and some of them were talking afterwards about how he "tells it like it is" which I don't think is Sadowitz's intention. A bit of an Al Murray The Pub Landlord thing, he's playing a character that's meant to be awful, but thickos take it at face value and see him as voice of the people.

[Memorex MP3]

Legit don't know whether I think he's a massive cunt or not but a lot of my leeway with sadowitz comes from the fact he could easily have been massively more successful if he moderated himself even a little bit. Great natural performer with a genuinely impressive skillset. It does come across as a weird kind of masochism at points that he's so committed to not getting past the fringes of society with his act.

Jim Davidson's total lack of talent and lowest common denominator means of success doesn't warrant any goodwill.
Not sure I'd cheer on any of their shit shows being pulled though, what'd be the point of that?
Carr is obviously more talented than Davidson but a lot of the same sentiment applies for him with me too

[Thursday]

Like some stuff Sadowitz has done in the past, but not a fan of using racial slurs or unwanted exposure regardless of the context tbh.

[Kankurette]

Me neither, and I'm not a fan BUT surely they knew what they were getting into when they booked him?

[Memorex MP3]

Like some stuff Sadowitz has done in the past, but not a fan of using racial slurs or unwanted exposure regardless of the context tbh.

Yep, the best case scenario from all this is that he stops doing both but given his age he's presumably going to double down

[Catalogue Trousers]

Jim Davidson and Chubby Brown and their material peddle to the masses but Sadowitz doesn't?

But that falls down as the vast majority of 'the masses' can't stick Davidson or Brown.

The simplest solution for either of them - or the better likes of Sadowitz - is to know that they deal largely in offence, whether or not you find it funny. It's one of the things that anyone with any knowledge of the acts concerned knows about them.

This is definitely an example of that vexed but valid point that freedom of expression - or speech, if you'd prefer - has to apply to everyone or it has no point at all.

[Capt.Midnight]

Seen him twice, I find him funny in his audacity, but it makes me think, if Andrew Doyle or Mark Dolan came out with that sort of stuff, would I find it offensive? Is it because I'm a smug liberal that Sadowitz saying awful stuff is subversive and challenging, while Jim Davidson saying awful stuff is right wing punching down? One of the times I went to see him with friends, and some of them were talking afterwards about how he "tells it like it is" which I don't think is Sadowitz's intention. A bit of an Al Murray The Pub Landlord thing, he's playing a character that's meant to be awful, but thickos take it at face value and see him as voice of the people.

It's a really interesting one. I saw him in Bolton years back and there seemed to be a handful of dodgy, EDL types in the foyer beforehand. It was an awesome gig - Just a flurry of insane OTT jokes. At one point, he did a racist Chinese joke which caused the couple in front of us to walk out (one of them was Chinese/East Asian). That always struck me as a bit sad really.

It's very strange to see Glinner and Arty Morty pop up on Twitter about this. Bigots just need attention I guess (which they get in spades elsewhere on this forum still).

[iamcoop]

I'm a fan of Sadowitz and I think he's a world away from Davidson et al - the first thing that springs to mind is when Davidson peddles his misogynistic stuff you're hearing it from a man that was quite happy to go on record about beating the shit out of his wife. There's a genuine sneer about it.

When I watch Sadowitz it's the unbelievable absurdity of his vitriol and nihilism that's funny. He's such a fucking pathetic character, he doesn't wield any power in his act. And I know it's a cliche to say but it does bear repeating - he goes for everyone. Anyone that appears to be laughing because they're taking the absurdity at face value will get a face full as well. The freewheeling nature of his abuse becomes funny in of itself.

The age old issue is, of course, why people are laughing. I've seen his act twice, once in a comedy club full of cosy liberal comedy fans (I include myself in this) laughing at the act, but the second time was in a provincial theatre and the bar before the gig had the vibe of an EDL rally that genuinely made me feel uncomfortable and made me question why I was there and whether I should see Jerry again. (For what it's worth he clearly enjoyed the former gig way more than the latter, which ended in him basically telling everyone to fuck off and rolling around on the floor to a bemused room of people that presumably were expecting a chubby brown esq singalong about women in niqabs at the end or something).

[non capisco]

Has it been confirmed that he flashed a woman in the audience? I think it becomes impossible to defend his act on the basis that he wields no power if he's doing that.

[iamcoop]

Has it been confirmed that he flashed a woman in the audience? I think it becomes impossible to defend his act on the basis that he wields no power if he's doing that.

He says in the description of his show that he'll probably get his cock out.

[CaledonianGonzo]

Has it been confirmed that he flashed a woman in the audience? I think it becomes impossible to defend his act on the basis that he wields no power if he's doing that.

It's been part of his act for years, but there's been debate as to either or not its a prop or stunt willie - or the IRL Little Jerry.

What's not really up for debate is that nudity by comedians onstage at the Fringe isn't that much of a rarity.  Clowns like Dr Brown and Gary Starr frequently clamber around on the audience in the nip.

[lipsink]

I mean, "comedy genius" or not. If you're calling someone a p**i in 2022 with everything going on the world, you can get to fuck.

[JCR]

Has it been confirmed that he flashed a woman in the audience? I think it becomes impossible to defend his act on the basis that he wields no power if he's doing that.

There is a lot of nudity at the fringe, even to this day. Especially in alternative comedy.

I know stuff that happened back in the day is irrelevant to 2022 but I remember Mark Little getting his cock out when he was still a big draw from Neighbours/tv

[dissolute ocelot]

Just as he's not the only dick-waver, Sadowitz certainly isn't the only bloke doing ironically racist routines on the Fringe, check out Wrong Comedy at the Globe for instance. But in this day and age, a big cultural entity like The Pleasance is going to be more careful, listen to more voices, and certainly censor more, than a free show in the back room of a dodgy pub. Things find their audience.

I'm conscious that as a white male I don't get to decide what's offensive, and while middle-class white males were the sole cultural arbiters when Sadowitz started out, promoters and companies now listen to the voices of other people. Things have changed a lot.

I'd like to hope that the one positive thing coming out of it is that it'll make Liz Truss look like even more of a hypocritical prick, but I doubt the Times and Telegraph are going to demand she defends Sadowitz's free speech. Will it harm Sadowitz, will it help him? Who knows.

[Rizla]

Lot of missing the point going on. JS wasn't always as the creature you see before you - early on he was offensive, sure, but he got on TV, had his own shows, was probably one of the top standups in the country circa '87 - '88. Since then comedy has changed a lot. The Russels. Gervaise and his "does it offend you" pish. The Fringe has changed - it used to be anything goes, now it's largely a showcase for bland centrist comedy. Jerry has reacted to all this, seeing these artistically void Mock the week foetuses become millionaires from their shit comedy, and the agents and Pleasance cunts become the gatekeepers of who gets to be top of the bill regardless of talent or time-served. They made him what he is. But he's treated like some open mic guy who's been at it a year or two and is using shock tactics to do what? - fill a theatre with racists who "think like him"? Aye, OK. It's fucking unreal frankly. His life, his career, is his act. No he's not as funny as he was/it's just shock tactics/whatever. That's the point now. GEDDIT?

There are very few artist that I have as much respect for as JS, to see him treated this way is horrendous. Slurs and indecent exposure??? He's out to offend you, that is his art. Like it or not, it is art. His art, that only he can do, in context of his life and career. Some of the posters in this thread, I don't know lads. Don't know what to tell you. Read some history about theatre censorship in this country.

Fuck the Pleasance, they'll never get another penny off me until there's an apology for this. It's unconscionable. No business being in the business.

[Thursday]

Some of the posters in this thread, I don't know lads. Don't know what to tell you. Read some history about theatre censorship in this country.
 

Fuck off you stupid patronizing cunt

[Sonny_Jim]

Me neither, and I'm not a fan BUT surely they knew what they were getting into when they booked him?

[Rizla]

Like some stuff Sadowitz has done in the past, but not a fan of using racial slurs or unwanted exposure regardless of the context tbh.

And you call me patronising? Get yourself to fuck.

[Dayraven]

But that falls down as the vast majority of 'the masses' can't stick Davidson or Brown.

Davidson isn't so big nowadays, maybe, but he had two or three decades as a TV star.

[CaledonianGonzo]

Interesting:

https://twitter.com/JosieLong/status/1558795055883771904?t=oAGwLINAGTHaut_WZw5iXg&s=19

I think he was at The Stand in 2019.

[g0m]

And you call me patronising? Get yourself to fuck.

not really sure how that's patronising esp compared to your own "some people in this thread seriously need to google 'censorship' and click all the links"

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

Am totally unfamiliar with Sadowitz and his work. Maybe in context it's utterly hilarious. Maybe whoever complained is just a stupid uptight dingbat who foolishly came to see a comedian without googling his body of work first. But folks, a venue telling a performer "we don't want you back for a second night" is not censorship. If there was an industry-wide ban and nobody would book him we could talk. (But seemingly that isn't the case as he's posted his tour dates on Twitter.) I mean, are clubs and venues obliged to let anybody do and say what they want, just because they're on a stage? And to let them come back for their second show no matter how badly the first one was received?

[JCR]

Am totally unfamiliar with Sadowitz and his work. Maybe in context it's utterly hilarious. Maybe whoever complained is just a stupid uptight dingbat who foolishly came to see a comedian without googling his body of work first. But folks, a venue telling a performer "we don't want you back for a second night" is not censorship. If there was an industry-wide ban and nobody would book him we could talk. (But seemingly that isn't the case as he's posted his tour dates on Twitter.) I mean, are clubs and venues obliged to let anybody do and say what they want, just because they're on a stage? And to let them come back for their second show no matter how badly the first one was received?

It's still a stupid way of doing things, not least for the front of house staff who had to phone Sadowitz audience at 10am yesterday to tell their evening's entertainment was canceled, and I would imagine got dogs abuse for it.

[CaledonianGonzo]

It would have helped if Pleasance were specific about exactly what caused the plug to be pulled.  At the moment it's all just hearsay.

[scarecrow]

Isn't the point of Sadowitz that he emerged from the alternative comedy scene as an antidote to the to all the right-on acts, but who also despised the old guard - a context in which he made more sense than he does now that everyone's centre right and dabbling in irony? I still think he's brilliant, it's just that his shows have become an experience more akin to a theme park ride than an evening of comedy.

[Rizla]

not really sure how that's patronising esp compared to your own "some people in this thread seriously need to google 'censorship' and click all the links"

"I was alright with him until he crossed my own personal line of acceptable/not acceptable, therefore it is entirely correct to censor and cancel this 35+ year showbiz fringe legend and veteran" is a bit patronising.

I didn't tell anyone to click fuck all.