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March 29, 2024, 01:54:45 AM

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Jacobin

Started by Satchmo Distel, August 16, 2022, 02:35:14 PM

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What do you make articles like this?:

https://jacobin.com/2022/08/dick-cheney-liz-campaign-ad-january-6-gore-stolen-election

It seems to be dumbed down Chomsky: the neocons were worse than the Trumpers.

But there's also an agenda of saying that BLM and intersectionality are distractions from the real class war:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/bernie-sanders-democratic-successors-are-failing-his-leftist-legacy

pcsjwgm

Which part of it do you disagree with?

Video Game Fan 2000

#2
Quote from: Satchmo Distel on August 16, 2022, 02:35:14 PMthe neocons were worse than the Trumpers.

They were

Cheney is one of the most evil men to ever live, now rehabilitated through patriotism and flagfucking.

Quote from: Satchmo Distel on August 16, 2022, 02:35:14 PMBut there's also an agenda of saying that BLM and intersectionality are distractions from the real class war:


An agenda?

Do you think class politics has the upper hand over positions supported by the most powerful liberal institutions in the world and endorsed by corporations like Amazon? Positions often adopted specifically to disrupt labour organisation? Burgis puts things very clumsily and he's a bit of a Twitter provocateur but its hard to see that he's the one with the agenda

Starmer and Pelosi both took a knee but treat picket lines as politically toxic, nevermind the race of people involved in picketing

Blumf

Well, the neocons are more successful than Trump.

Video Game Fan 2000

The Ethno- and Christian- nationalism didn't start in 2016.

Do liberals think the real crime is a lack of civility.

Pink Gregory

Quote from: Video Game Fan 2000 on August 16, 2022, 02:40:27 PMDo liberals think the real crime is a lack of civility.

Gonna go out on a limb and say yes.

Don't really read Jacobin but they own Tribune which I find to be a very valuable publication, if not always extremely engagingly written; and as far as I'm aware Tribune wouldn't exist without Jacobin buying it.  I'd rather that not be the case, but hey ho.

Sebastian Cobb

The articles I've read seem ok, I'm more familiar with its sister publication Tribune, but on the whole they don't seem to be all that much different.

Video Game Fan 2000

remember when GWB gave michelle obama a sweet discreetly at a funeral

trump would have given her an entire happy meal and made sure everyone saw. no class. he would have kept the toy too

Kankurette

I hate the rehabilitation of Bush. Iraq wasn't even that long ago and yet all of a sudden he's been rehabilitated as a kindly old grandpa. Although the Ana Mardoll hooha shows that a lot of people do still remember and haven't forgiven him.

Taking a knee doesn't mean shit if you don't back it up with actions. Zaha was right. Neither does putting a rainbow on things if it means you treat your LGBTQ workers badly. But does Jacobin think you can't be working-class AND black? What's wrong with being against police brutality? Because that was what BLM is about, don't forget.

Pink Gregory

Quote from: Kankurette on August 16, 2022, 06:29:37 PMWhat's wrong with being against police brutality? Because that was what BLM is about, don't forget.

I'm dreading seeing some of Ms. Gregory's friends from back home soon, they got really into conspiracies and they were going on vaguely about BLM being 'infiltrated'.

I mean, by the CIA?  Most certainly, but putting it into context with other things they said I think they believe that they were somehow peaceful, ordered protests interrupted by malign actors in order to sow division between white and black people - for context, one of them said that 'things were fine ten years ago', which is so completely untrue, where to begin?

Maybe your question is what I need to ask them.  It rather gets to the nub of the matter.


Mister Six

Quote from: Video Game Fan 2000 on August 16, 2022, 02:38:00 PMStarmer and Pelosi both took a knee but treat picket lines as politically toxic, nevermind the race of people involved in picketing

Liberals pretending to care identity politics to score easy points doesn't mean that there's anything inherently wrong in the BLM movement, and the very point of intersectionality is to recognise multiple overlapping systems of oppression including financial/class privilege.

Sure, I've seen wealthy black liberals pretending that racial oppression trumps all, but that's a problem of liberalism, not intersectionality (and, again, runs counter to intersectionality).

Remember, the Black Panthers were a Marxist-Leninist organisation. Allying groups with common interests and recognising how race and class/wealth intersect is going to do a lot more to help fix things than putting your fingers in your ears and pretending Nancy Pelosi represents anyone other than herself and her benefactors.

Mister Six

To put it another way, saying that Pelosi and Starmer represent intersectionality is like saying they represent the left wing of politics: bollocks, but they'd love you to believe it.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Kankurette on August 16, 2022, 06:29:37 PMBut does Jacobin think you can't be working-class AND black?

The prominent figures writing about this at Jacobin are BIPOC academics specifically writing about working class? And especially the BIPOC working class community.

For example Adolphus Reed is one of the people you are talking about here - this is literally someone that was a black working class activist in the civil rights movement in the 60s who later became a professor emeritus on in the area of race and class.

QuoteWhat's wrong with being against police brutality? Because that was what BLM is about, don't forget.

I think you need to read what the people at Jacobin have been saying for years now about BLM, it obviously isn't that they are for police brutality.  BLM was originally set up because of the acquittal of Trayvon Martins murderer (actually a Hispanic man and not a police officer) not police brutality, it had been involved in lots of issues alongside police brutality up until it really broke consciousness with George Floyd.

Video Game Fan 2000

Quote from: Mister Six on August 16, 2022, 06:42:33 PMLiberals pretending to care identity politics to score easy points doesn't mean that there's anything inherently wrong in the BLM movement, and the very point of intersectionality is to recognise multiple overlapping systems of oppression including financial/class privilege.

But the articles were about liberals and not about a hypothetical pure or "grassroots" form of these things which everyone seems to be certain exists in a significant way.

I wasn't saying anything against BLM.

and

Quoteand the very point of intersectionality is to recognise multiple overlapping systems of oppression including financial/class privilege.

this is false. The 'point' of intersectionality is that each intersection forms its own legally distinct and particular oppression that isn't covered by the overlap of the previous two. The most significant one, that most defines it, is that idea that black women need their own specific movement because they can't just rely on the overlap between antiracist movements and feminism, the imperative was to create a new third thing that addressed the experience of having "multiple identities" - hence the notion of the "intersection" or "double jeopardy" where a particular minority group forms a blind spot even to activists who share one or more of its identities.

The metaphor at play is the highway intersection, not the venn diagram. where each node is particular and not decomposable its elements. There's absolutely no point in using such a specific term if it just becomes another word for demographic diversity. Yes, I'm critical of it but that's hardly the point here. Having class as the same finance and just another "privilege" is an argument for another time. and some times after that.

Not that I think Kier Starmer gives a fuck. the fuck did I ever say he represented intersectionality cmon.




Kankurette

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on August 16, 2022, 06:47:44 PMThe prominent figures writing about this at Jacobin are BIPOC academics specifically writing about working class? And especially the BIPOC working class community.

For example Adolphus Reed is one of the people you are talking about here - this is literally someone that was a black working class activist in the civil rights movement in the 60s who later became a professor emeritus on in the area of race and class.
Oh, OK, I'd never heard of him until this thread. And no, I'm not saying Jacobin would be pro-police brutality. It wouldn't be a very leftist position.

I'm sorry, I can't articulate myself too well right now.

Zetetic

In practice, my (very limited) experience with other people trying to organise to change stuff has been that "identity politics disrupts class politics" is reproduced more by belief and advocacy of that view than anything else.


TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Mister Six on August 16, 2022, 06:42:33 PMLiberals pretending to care identity politics to score easy points doesn't mean that there's anything inherently wrong in the BLM movement, and the very point of intersectionality is to recognise multiple overlapping systems of oppression including financial/class privilege.

You really need to listen to the arguments that they make, they don't have a problem with BLM on a inherent basis they have a problem with BLM on an operational basis i.e. how they do things.  Their critique about intersectionality would be that whilst it says it is there to recognise multiple overlapping systems of oppression including financial/class privilege..........it doesn't, it just focuses on race and gender.

id pol isn't about class, Marxism is about identity AND class and has been for 80 years you did not need to invent id pol to do this.  It's the lack of class commentary by id pol that is the problem, some wings of BLM explicitly do not allow white people to become members.  If id pol is all about the intersectionality of oppression including class then why are they never talking about it?

Video Game Fan 2000

Quote from: Mister Six on August 16, 2022, 06:42:33 PMRemember, the Black Panthers were a Marxist-Leninist organisation. Allying groups with common interests and recognising how race and class/wealth intersect is going to do a lot more to help fix things than putting your fingers in your ears and pretending Nancy Pelosi represents anyone other than herself and her benefactors.

retrospectively classing universalist thought and action from minorities as "intersectionality" or "identity" based groups is a big pet peeve of mine.

and that people think Fred Hampton was a forerunner of intersectionality. really? Really? Bloody necromancy.

Video Game Fan 2000

Quote from: Zetetic on August 16, 2022, 07:04:14 PMIn practice, my (very limited) experience with other people trying to organise to change stuff has been that "identity politics disrupts class politics" is reproduced more by belief and advocacy of that view than anything else.

What about in institutions and nonprofits that produce more media and advocacy based on social difference (won't say identity politics) than anywhere else?

Does class politics really have a chance against it all? Do people really believe 'class' and 'labour' are privileged or all powerful positions, or unfairly favoured political ideas, in 2022? Or is it just more liberal and academic distaste for universality and generic action? Or is it just that class is 'boring' and low status, and attracts the wrong sort? Because that's definitely more the feeling I've got in my own limited experience. Talking about class doesn't make you sound clever and sophisticated like talking about difference and pluralising every noun does.

Zetetic

Quote from: Video Game Fan 2000 on August 16, 2022, 07:08:15 PMWhat about in institutions and nonprofits that produce more media and advocacy based on social difference (won't say identity politics) than anywhere else?
I think that probably confuses cause and effect.

QuoteDoes class politics really have a chance?
If it's presented as in opposition to the recognition of other "social difference", probably less so?


TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Kankurette on August 16, 2022, 07:00:42 PMOh, OK, I'd never heard of him until this thread. And no, I'm not saying Jacobin would be pro-police brutality. It wouldn't be a very leftist position.

I'm sorry, I can't articulate myself too well right now.

It's cool Kanks, I have sympathy, there are economic leftwing grifters that don't recognise racism and there are also right-wingers that use the notion of working class in this way, but these are not Marxists (of which Jacobin is very much a good Marxist publication).

Zetetic

Quote from: Video Game Fan 2000 on August 16, 2022, 07:08:15 PMOr is it just that class is 'boring' and low status, and attracts the wrong sort? Because that's definitely more the feeling I've got in my own limited experience.
What sort of situations are these experiences drawn from?

Kankurette

Quote from: Video Game Fan 2000 on August 16, 2022, 07:08:15 PMTalking about class doesn't make you sound clever and sophisticated like talking about difference and pluralising every noun does.
You really think so? Class discussions on here make me feel like I was dropped on my head as a baby.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Video Game Fan 2000 on August 16, 2022, 06:55:47 PMthis is false. The 'point' of intersectionality is that each intersection forms its own legally distinct and particular oppression that isn't covered by the overlap of the previous two. The most significant one, that most defines it, is that idea that black women need their own specific movement because they can't just rely on the overlap between antiracist movements and feminism, the imperative was to create a new third thing that addressed the experience of having "multiple identities" - hence the notion of the "intersection" or "double jeopardy" where a particular minority group forms a blind spot even to activists who share one or more of its identities.

Intersectionality could be about the relationship between intersections though, which could be useful in identifying relativistic notions of oppression.........but it doesn't it is nearly always exclusively about race and gender.

Video Game Fan 2000

#24
Quote from: Zetetic on August 16, 2022, 07:11:13 PMI think that probably confuses cause and effect.

Political ideas generally don't spontaneously emerge from the grassroots and then filter upwards into institutions and organisations.

Generally people without means do not have nearly as much ability to propogate their ideas as those with means, or those with state or private interests backing them. Certain ideas are actively promoted and other ideas aren't. I'm not really interested in arguing about which ideas are actively promoted and have the weight of "privilege" behind them, but simply to attack the absurd that class and labour of all things are in this position. 


QuoteIf it's presented as in opposition to the recognition of other "social difference", probably less so?

There is no opposition except in the idea that class can be reduced to just another difference and slotted in with the rest, rather than being a structural or collective category. Class as a matter of personal identity is hardly a left wing idea. The notion here that everything is its own specific kind of difference, that there are no universal or generic ways of approaching political (or any) problems is an old idea, once academically trendy, and now foisted on the world from institutions.

Class analysis or dialectic framing is (or should be) opposed to theories based on social difference, as well as theories around representation and recognition. This opposition needn't be replicated on the level of political organisation. It also shouldn't mean people aren't able to express themselves with identity or difference as framing if they wish. Its just that class is supposed to be a category of action and generic - the line goes that class does not pre-exist class struggle, which isn't true for disabled people since chronic illnesses and injured limbs pre-exist the struggle for the political struggle for the recognition of those things. The reduction of class to merely another category of difference takes the motor out of the car.

Zetetic

Quote from: Video Game Fan 2000 on August 16, 2022, 07:21:07 PMGenerally people without means do not have nearly as much ability to propogate their ideas those with means, or those with state or private interests backing them. Certain ideas are actively promoted and other ideas aren't.
Sure, I don't think we have any disagreement here.

Video Game Fan 2000

Quote from: Zetetic on August 16, 2022, 07:14:12 PMWhat sort of situations are these experiences drawn from?

don't want to get into it but political discussions and meetings
the way that academics and people in similar influential positions talk about these issues and the attitudes they hold to people without status who lack "class" in the american sense
and the explosion of popularity of leftist politics with high status people, its use as social signifier, and as well as the fading of popularity of postmodernism and the migration of fascination from postmodern framings to "radical" "activist" "antifascist" ideas and "organising" - and i know for a fact a lot of the active american "antifascists" who are terrified of "class reductionism" were libertarians before occupy.

a trivial but telling example is recruitment and HR consultants telling postgrad students to get "community organising" on their CVs because employers think it is good and it shows the right skills. I can't imagine they'd say the same about class militancy or labour union work! the main reason I think "intersectionality" has become a word for inclusion and diversity, not the highly specific legal metaphor that is, is that it started to become a buzzword around graduate employment in the mid- to late 2000s. From there, along with the popularity of privilege theory which is also in part propogated through HR and employment, it has spread into the media from there into pop culture discussions and into our bosoms.

i dont have much exciting experience if i need that to back myself up, im too poor and ill mostly.  and living abroad. but i do know what i'm on about for the most part.

Zetetic

Quote from: Video Game Fan 2000 on August 16, 2022, 07:30:23 PMi dont have much exciting experience if i need that to back myself up
I wasn't suggesting that you were lying. I was wondering whether our experiences were from different settings.

Video Game Fan 2000

sorry. I got on the back foot for a second

I guess I don't like the implication that I have the same disrepect for activism and scholarship I admire but firmly disagree with that I have for middle class ninnies and Kier Starmer, but I realise that wasn't what was actually implied by anyone.



Video Game Fan 2000

but all that said becoming well known as an activist can be a fantastic career move if you dont have the capacity to feel shame