9/11: Ten Year Anniversary

[biggytitbo]

I thought that had been adequately explained by the buildings having a planeload of aviation fuel dumped inside them. The heating system probably wouldn't contain enough fuel to account for that amount of fire, concentrated on those floors. Hence the reason why you never heard it again is that it's not important.

Maybe it explains why building 7 also collapse in the same manner?

[Consignia]

The pilot episode of Lone Gun Men (X-files spin off) is about a plot to hijack a plane via remote control and crash it, it wasn't shown on TV... Jones seems to forget that a lot of pilots don't get shown.

Now, this is taking me back, but it wasn't a pilot it was the first episode wasn't it? However, I believe it originally had been broadcast in the US before the attacks, but wasn't shown in some other territories that got it later.

[Absorb the anus burn]

I thought that had been adequately explained by the buildings having a planeload of aviation fuel dumped inside them.

The aviation fuel burned up in a massive inferno outside the second tower... I own a copy of the 9-11 commission report and it repeatedly fails to explain how it did so much damage.

For the record, I think the official 9-11 narrative stinks... So I suppose that makes me a silly conspiracist. Which is fine. The word has become a cheap insult. It needs to be reclaimed in the same way as the LGBT reclaimed queer. For the record I don't believe in hologram planes, invisible passengers & space death ray weapons... But I do believe in basic physics. I cannot balance my understanding of simple physical laws with what we saw that day.

[biggytitbo]

The aviation fuel burned up in a massive inferno outside the second tower... I own a copy of the 9-11 commission report and it repeatedly fails to explain how it did so much damage.

For the record, I think the official 9-11 narrative stinks... So I suppose that makes me a silly conspiracist. Which is fine. The word has become a cheap insult. It needs to be reclaimed in the same way as the LGBT reclaimed queer. For the record I don't believe in hologram planes, invisible passengers & space death ray weapons... But I do believe in basic physics. I cannot balance my understanding of simple physical laws with what we saw that day.

Did they ever manage to explain why WTC7 fell down like a tonne of bricks? I ducked out of this stuff years ago so I presume they've managed to find an explanation by now?


The problem I always had with controlled demolition theory is that it wasn't necessary and it made the chances of getting caught 1000 times greater.

[BlodwynPig]

The Truth will be revealed in 2056, and the people will mutter a collective "tuh"

[Absorb the anus burn]

^^^

I can't answer that, Biggy, as I've stopped following 9-11 developments, because there haven't been ANY for four or so years... I have my opinion and I am not worried about stating it. Up to a few years ago, the official NIST stance on WTC7 was 'we can't explain how that happened, but give us longer and we'll get back to you...' Then they released an official account which seemed about as valid as Judy Wood's theories or that bloke who reckons 9-11 was a synchro-mystic-mega-ritual.

It all puts me to sleep now... Like I said before, 9-11 (as history tells us) is a bad joke, simply because of science. Gravity. Resistance. Kinetic energy. The behaviour of materials, even under extreme stresses... These are constants on all days except 9-11.

I can't be bothered with it now, but there's be plenty of smart kids in the future who'll make it their passion. If it makes them ask questions / mistrust our heartless overlords then good look to them.

[biggytitbo]

I agree, the whole thing became unbelievably tiresome and infested with crackpots several years ago. There was always the lunatic fringe but some people were doing good work once upon a time. Whats you're opinion on the idea that some of the wilder theories have been deliberelty injected into the debate by such obviously dodgy characters as David Shayler and Jim Fetzer, to discredit the legitimate questions that had been raised?

[chand]

It all puts me to sleep now... Like I said before, 9-11 (as history tells us) is a bad joke, simply because of science. Gravity. Resistance. Kinetic energy. The behaviour of materials, even under extreme stresses... These are constants on all days except 9-11.

The official narrative does not posit anything that's physically impossible.

[Famous Mortimer]

The official narrative does not posit anything that's physically impossible.

Now, I thought that buildings the size of those falling down after being hit by planes would be a fairly unique occurence, to the stage where there just isn't an "expected" way for it to happen. I agree with you, chand, by the way.

[Absorb the anus burn]

The official narrative does not posit anything that's physically impossible.

It does. Lots of things. But I've had flame wars about this before, where everybody produces links to back up their POV. Links that nobody reads and can be refuted with other links... It's a circle jerk and I got bored of it years ago.

I really can't be fucked, because there are 99 other things I'd rather get passionate and poisonous about... I don't need to be told that 9-11 was an unprecedented event to know that constants concerning resistance, gravity, metallurgy etc. don't change for a few hours on one particular day... Like I stated before, I have my opinion - it's worth nothing to no-one except me - but here it is again, the official narrative of 9-11 stinks.

[Glyn]

I'm probably being wildly obvious here but its fascinating how these theories mutate. Obviously you have your basic idiot who will believe anything a badly produced YouTube video says ,but won't believe experts in their fields (because that's 'the man' and we all know 'the man' lies) . But far more fascinating are those who want the superiority of being 'in the know' without looking completely crack-pot. It's the smugness of the  'you have to admit it raises some questions' brigade which gets on my proverbials . I'm sure its been said better but the day a major government can make an I.T project work under budget is the day I believe they can orchanstrate even the most basic of conspiracies.

[Absorb the anus burn]

Yeah, we all know 'the man' lies; yeah, experts always tell the truth; yeah, people can be smug online with their ivory tower smart arsery; yeah, governments can't do anything without being exposed by a snitch or crusading journalist; yeah, some people sugar coat extreme beliefs online so as not to appear completely potty.

Anything else? Lovely choice of words in your post... (Wild, mutate, basic idiot, badly produced, superiority, crack-pot, smug, gets on my proverbials) Thanks for your contribution.

Off to work now. Need to put some hours in for 'the man'.

[skylock]

LIHOP anyone...?
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/08/12/richard-clarke-9-11-interview-was-there-a-cia-coverup.html

[CaledonianGonzo]

Besides, in pointing-out-the-bleeding-obvious mode, the ramifications of the event and its influence on the 2011 political macro-environment are far more important/interesting [nb]Delete as appropriate[/nb] than arguing the toss about the melting points of various metals.

http://www.salon.com/news/terrorism/?story=/opinion/greenwald/2011/08/29/terrorism

etc, etc.

[Famous Mortimer]

the day a major government can make an I.T project work under budget is the day I believe they can orchestrate even the most basic of conspiracies.

This x 100000000000000

Oh, and what CaledonianGonzo said. Absorb, I respectfully disagree with your view, but you're right there's precious little point going over the same stuff again.

[biggytitbo]

This x 100000000000000

Bollocks. Bletchley Park -1000s of people working on it. Completely secret until the 1970s.


Secrets can be kept, especially in compartmentalized military or quasi military organizations.


Show me the Nazi that blabbed about the final solution?


The Manhatten project - completely secret until it was unvieled to the unfortunate people of Hiroshima. Fewer than 1% of the people working on the project knew what it was.


It's a total and utter myth that conspiracies can't be kept secret or that they'd need too many people to ever be viable.

[Munk Audley]

10 years since I was 10 years younger than I am now, and 10 times more cynical then than now. I'm more optimistic now. But we're still all fucked.

[Glyn]

It's a total and utter myth that conspiracies can't be kept secret or that they'd need too many people to ever be viable.

Well clearly,I mean this is the first I've heard of this 'final solution' secret ,someone really should tell the allies.

In all of the examples you quote though I can imagine the people involved kept their silence because they were fighting a common 'known' enemy .maybe I'm too naive but I just can't see the obvious (and so obvious that all involved stake their lives on it) benefit of the attacks to America. Anyways that's me done and I should probably save my new best friend the effort (clearly,allies,examples,obvious, did,it,look,like,I,cared,?)

[biggytitbo]

Well clearly,I mean this is the first I've heard of this 'final solution' secret ,someone really should tell the allies.

In all of the examples you quote though I can imagine the people involved kept their silence because they were fighting a common 'known' enemy .maybe I'm too naive but I just can't see the obvious (and so obvious that all involved stake their lives on it) benefit of the attacks to America. Anyways that's me done and I should probably save my new best friend the effort (clearly,allies,examples,obvious, did,it,look,like,I,cared,?)

We found out about it by virtue of allied intelligence and er...winning the war, not because those in on the plot blabbed, which conspiracy debunking mythology tells us must always happen because large conspiracies are impossible.

[WestHill]

In the military you just compartmentalise different information to different tasks. Not everyone involved has to know the big picture. Indeed it would be unwise for that info to be shared.

I think military or intelligence agency competence would be a fairer comparison than that of an acting government. 

[biggytitbo]

In the military you just compartmentalise different information to different tasks. Not everyone involved has to know the big picture. Indeed it would be unwise for that info to be shared.

I think military or intelligence agency competence would be a fairer comparison than that of an acting government.

Most of the conspiracies that involve governments are invariably actually conspiracies involving the military and the intelligence services, and they can keep a secret. That's not to say the secret never gets out, but its rarely because the conspirators themselves talked. Iran Contra was a top to bottom conspiracy of the american military and intelligence infrastructure involving thousands of people right up to the top of the Whitehouse. And it wasn't uncovered because any of them blabbed.

[Glyn]

Ah I see, the lack of evidence can only mean the cia's 'department of evil plans which only make sense with tortuous logic and hindsight' planned it. Right I'm following this so far. Just to check  though: This is the military who protect their country and their countries interests right? Even with my fully admitted naive head on I always get stuck here. Please continue though, you are raising some interesting questions.  (evidence,logic,naive)

[WestHill]

(smug,comma,usage)

[Famous Mortimer]

Bollocks. Bletchley Park -1000s of people working on it. Completely secret until the 1970s.


Secrets can be kept, especially in compartmentalized military or quasi military organizations.


Show me the Nazi that blabbed about the final solution?


The Manhatten project - completely secret until it was unvieled to the unfortunate people of Hiroshima. Fewer than 1% of the people working on the project knew what it was.


It's a total and utter myth that conspiracies can't be kept secret or that they'd need too many people to ever be viable.

Successful things of this sort seem to come from the military, not the Government, which is the thing I was talking about. But you're right, some conspiracies remain secret for decades. It does seem, though, that the ones you listed were in wartime situations, against broadly defined enemies who pretty much everyone disliked, and more importantly didn't involve killing thousands of their own civilians. Oh, and all your examples are from the 1940s, which is a tiny bit different to today in terms of keeping things secret.

[biggytitbo]

Some of these big conspiracies have not been kept secret. Thanks to proper researchers, we broadly know what happened with JFK, even if the details are hopelessly lost in the fog of time and bullshit. We can even make a pretty decent stab at naming names.


9/11, I think decent researchers and investigators nailed down that the 'intellegence failures' that are admitted to went much further than that, and they established that years ago. But what by now should be accepted and properly exposed as a very real political and intelligence scandal got hopelessly lost amongst the miasma of utter bullshit.


Gladio is more or less accepted by serious historians now isnt it?



As for the ones that have been kept secret, well..we don't know about those.

[Dusty Gozongas]

Heheh, tasteful.

[Glyn]

(smug,comma,usage)

This is the awful bit though. My smug contempt for those who believe this stuff is the exact same feeling they have towards those who 'haven't seen the light'. I get this awful feeling we're both sat here with horrible grins,shaking our heads saying 'if only you knew'.

[easytarget]

It's already almost ten years since Rockin' The Suburbs came out - I think we all remember where we were when that happened.

Moving on from the crazy conspriacy theories, were any of you 'whores in NY when this happened?

[biggytitbo]

I was in one of the planes.

[CaledonianGonzo]

I used to work next to Steven 'Dr Who' Moffat's sister and she was in New York at the time.  Even more 'spookily', her brother (Steven 'Coupling' Moffat) had paid for her and her spouse to have dinner in the Windows on the World restaurant.  Thereby nearly killing them.

A Good Man Goes to War was his way of working through his guilt. 

Steven 'Press Gang' Moffat, I mean.