Do you like hurting people? (Hotline Miami 2)

[Onken]

I only got into this after installing it on the Vita. It's the perfect platform for such a game.

3 remaining chapters I need to go back to A+ and haven't touched the puzzle stuff.

[Bored of Canada]

Is it the interactive nature of the medium that makes it offensive / exploitative to you BoC or the representation of rape in-and-of itself?

If I recall correctly (?) you're also a fan of the comic Megg and Mogg, which contains quite a lot of sexual violence (some of which I find a bit queasy... though some of which I think is very powerful and nuanced, as in the "rimming" strip).

I've never read any Megg and Mogg other than a strip or two linked here, just said I hung out with the creator at an indie art exhibition.

It's not the interactive nature that makes it offensive. It's sexual violence used in art to manipulate and exploit the audience. Hotline Miami is an 'exploitation game', like there are exploitation movies. And I have the exact same problem when people trying to be edgy and "Push envelopes" utilise sexual violence in edgy ways to be lurid and shocking. Movie violence is movie violence. Hotline Miami's violence is stylised and over the top. The sexual assault shown is not stylised and over the top. It's very grim. It's very simple. It's restrained, and it's designed to manipulate the audience, not to say anything meaningful that's not already been said a million times before about sexual assault.

Because it comes across as thoughtless. I'm not saying that sexual assault cannot be in art. People can put whatever they want in their narratives or expressions, and I fucking hate that people immediately make this fucking thing into an Us Vs Them debate where if you make any form of criticism, you're on the side of censorship.

Their are victims of sexual assault and have to live with it for the rest of their lives, statistically, a lot of people know people who've been victims of sexual assault and not necessarily know about it, and if they do, there's always that shared knowledge that you'll both know and deal with for the rest of your lives. It affects so many people for such a prolonged period. It's so damaging. And using this kind of thing purely to shock and manipulate the audience is going to genuinely hurt people, and hey, Jonnaton and Dennis are able to do so freely, but let's just hope they're content enough that it re enforces their premise enough for it to be vital to the game. Because if it's not, then they deserve criticism, and they're the ones who are going to have to be able to sleep at night and say that they did the right thing, and including that framed in that way is the most effective way they could have passed on their message.

And the fact that they've made it optional means that defence is already very shaky. 

I don't give a fuck about the movie thing. I don't understand why people keep talking about that?
It's irrelevant? It comes too late for that, and even with that there, what does that change? Again, like I said, we're shown images and you're supposed to interpret them, if you woke up and it was just a dream, it wouldn't change things either. It's a trick, but it doesn't recontextualize anything as the symbol has already been used. 

I don't argue on the internet and I'm sure you're all going to pile onto me and go through this in dot points about why I'm wrong, which is fine! This is just my feeling and I feel the fact that people keep getting stuck on different points means I'm not able to convey what I'm really trying to say, so I'm just going to chuck in the towel.

[DukeDeMondo]

That child in whatever that horrible movien (not Tarantino this time) where the 20-somethings pick a cute kid to run over for kicks.

The Toxic Avenger? One for the "jokes that genuinely shocked you" thread, that. Properly breathtaking.

[BPFHAY]

The reason people keep mentioning the movie stuff is because a lot of what you say hinges on a sexual assault being portrayed. Like you think the game is saying "a woman is being raped", when no woman is being raped, because she's acting. You just want to throw that distinction away, just by asserting it really hard.

So your entire argument boils down to a huge "TRIGGER WARNING: the idea of rape is raised here" and you aren't answering how that's different from other reminders of rape, like in serious fiction. And you seem to know what the rest of us can only suspect: that the game is making the player think their character is a rapist for shock value, and not to make you actually consider what that difference is.

And writing that out, it makes me realise how to explain something you really don't seem to understand: the reveal of the rape being an acted scene means that the character you're playing isn't a rapist. Surely that matters going on from that point.

[Kelvin]

Personally, I think the 'pull back and reveal' is cheap and grotesque and utterly inappropriate... also I simply hate it when games provide only one choice to advance a narrative, which is an unethical / evil one, then chide the player for making that choice. It's smug and unpleasant.

I feel like this is missing the point of the Hotline Miami games, though. It's not about providing a choice, it's about putting the player through a confusing, seedy experience. The rape scene is presumably designed to produce a conflicted response from the player. In the wider context, it's another step down this grimy path into a sordid, unpleasant world. I assume that's the point; to make the player feel sleazy and complicit.

In a way, a rape scene is one of the few taboos left, so it's one of the few ways the game's creators can produce a real, visceral reaction from the players. I don't think it's simply an exploitative attempt to shock or offend. It's more about making you feel a part of this grotty little world, in keeping with the way that the atmosphere was so important to the first game.   

[Kelvin]

Also, the reveal that it isn't a real rape is entirely in keeping with the first game, where you were frequently learning events weren't real, or waking up in horrible places, or mid way through some event. The first game plays with yours and your characters perceptions. I suspect this is no different. Certainly, it isn't a one off, used to make the rape more excusable[nb]And I agree with BoC that the reveal wouldn't change the initial impact of the sequence.[/nb]. 

[Mister Six]

I can now see, and sympathise with, BoC's feelings - I do think that Cactus is cynically exploiting a genuinely traumatic experience for shock value, then attempting to throw in a get-out-of-jail-free card with the film thing.

The issue is not 'it's a rape scene' (because it isn't), but 'it pretends to be a rape scene for just long enough to trigger potentially dangerous reactions in previous victims of sexual assault'.

On the other hand, making it optional kind of nullifies that criticism; the rape (and reveal) are tonally and conceptually congruent with the Hotline Miami franchise thus far; and it's still too early to see whether this moment is justified (or at least made less egregious) within the wider narrative and context that the game provides.



EDIT: Basically, yes, it does come down to 'TRIGGER WARNING!' but I think that's a valid reaction to something that could be genuinely upsetting to unwitting players. And the designers of the game have responded by actually introducing a trigger warning into the game in the form of the 'Rape on/off' option. So... I guess we're done here?

[garbed_attic]

I've never read any Megg and Mogg other than a strip or two linked here, just said I hung out with the creator at an indie art exhibition.

Ah - my apologies. I must have mis-remembered due to the fact you've met the creator!

The rimming strip I mentioned is here:
http://girlmountain.tumblr.com/post/41028999472/from-victoria-drug-scene-1

Which is the kind of depiction of sexual violence / coercion that I can imagine being incredibly triggering for some people? But at the same time, I think it's being used in a 'good faith' depiction of the characters.

At the same time, because it's essentially a humour strip (albeit a very anxious and scuzzy one) sometimes I feel pretty unsure when sexual violence does come up in the work. The assault of Owl is probably the most troubling example, but I think that might only be in the published collection.

ACTUALLY: It was mad_hair I previously discussed the above with. I attributed the conversation to you because I also sent you some messages about the strip after you said you've met Hanselmann!

[Kelvin]

This trigger warning stuff is ridiculous. If something can be justified artistically, and within the wider context of the piece (which clearly not all examples can be), then depictions of rape are entirely acceptable, and the fact it might trigger a reaction from a small proportion of the audience should not prevent you from including it. This is true of all art, whether it's a film, song, computer game or amusing cartoon strip. Creators should take the severity of the subject into consideration, but not let it prevent them from using it, when it's use can be defended.

[Kelvin]

Sorry, to clarify, it's not actually Trigger warnings I'm objecting to. I tend to think that, in certain circumstances, and if carefully phrased to avoid spoilers, they're a valid warning on some works.

What I actually object to is this suggestion that, because something might trigger a reaction, it shouldn't be included. Maybe that's not what people are actually suggesting here, but it does seem like some people don't think these types of scene are defensible, even in a context that explains them.

EDIT: I feel like some people are so sensitive to upsetting people, that they're not even comfortable allowing artists/creatives to handle rape in a context that's justified. 

[garbed_attic]

What if one were to compare Hotline Miami 2 to a different "dark and edgy" indie title like Binding of Issac? Potentially one might argue that child abuse (physical and emotional) and child death are just as serious and potentially triggering topics as rape... to be honest, I think Issac deals with these heavy themes in a pretty glib and irreverent way, but I haven't generally seen people take offence at it. I don't know if this is because rape is simply a more horrendous crime than non-sexual child abuse or whether the cartoony style of Issac actually softens its nastiness.

For me the problem comes from the fact that you are in the position of playing a rapist (at least, in the moment, to the player's knowledge) (thus potentially inviting player identification... and, well, it just generally seems wrong to have a player raping someone in a game unless it is done for very, very good reasons) rather than the victim of abuse, as in Issac. But this doesn't seem to be the issue BoC has / you have, BoC?

[Mister Six]

What I actually object to is this suggestion that, because something might trigger a reaction, it shouldn't be included. Maybe that's not what people are actually suggesting here, but it does seem like some people don't think these types of scene are defensible, even in a context that explains them.

EDIT: I feel like some people are so sensitive to upsetting people, that they're not even comfortable allowing artists/creatives to handle rape in a context that's justified.

To be honest, I think it's okay to include rape - or any other topic - for completely unjustifiable reasons too. A lot of Robert Crumb's art is basically unjustifiable from that standpoint, but is drawn almost as automatic writing, him delving into his fucked-up psyche and seeing what's there. I don't even like his comics that much for the most part, but I'd hate for them to have never existed because of self- (or any other kind of) censorship. And god knows Family Guy has done more egregious shit than this in its time.

That said, BoC's response is also completely justified. It's all freedom of expression, innit?

[Beagle 2]

Possibly out March 10 according to some tedious bollocks

But wait, what's this? Not definitely coming to Vita? Waaaaaaaaa!

[Old Nehamkin]

Finding this a really great laugh so far. Anyone else playing?

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

Is there much that's new in this one, or should I just replay the original?

[Old Nehamkin]

Is there much that's new in this one, or should I just replay the original?

All the levels are new, as is the storyline, most of the characters, and the soundtrack. The gameplay is mostly unchanged but there's a few new abilities/ weapons available. The levels feature a lot more windows than they did before, for good or ill. If you enjoyed the first one and fancy some more of that, I'd say it's well worth checking out.

[Hollow]

I'm not impressed at all by this game...it's a really standard sequel, it seems like my money has been spent on an add-on quality sequel with a brilliant soundtrack.

The 'rape' is totally seedy...worse than I thought it could be...some pixel buttocks...crass.

Add it to the list of unnecessary sequels.

[Hollow]

Changed my mind...good game...so what if it's an identical game to the first?

[Rolf Lundgren]

Really enjoying this. Much of the same as the first one but the difficulty ramps up a lot faster here. I like the fact you play as different characters but the plot is practically incomprehensible. There's parts of it I get but it jumps all over the place timewise that it's hard to follow unless you play the game all in one sitting.

It is baffling that it took so long to come out considering in terms of gameplay it's very similar to the first one. Losing the emphasis on the masks isn't great as you could choose to be tactical depending on the mask ability whereas now you have to figure it out on guns and fists alone. The soundtrack once again is incredible. There's one level that took me over an hour to figure out so to listen to the same 3 minute song over and over again in that time and not go insane shows how well it blends in with the game.

Also features the greatest pause screen ever. I may report back when I finish it to report if I can make sense of the story.

[Rolf Lundgren]

No, still can't understand it.

And bloody hell, how hard is hard mode?!

[ndrwkrtn]

I loved this and still love replaying odd chapters. Pure nihilism. The ending chapter is highly memorable, gorgeous visuals.

[clingfilm portent]

Looks great, plays great... just a shame about the storyline/dialogue.

As Rolf said, the plot is incomprehensible. The first game had the same problem. Trying and failing miserably to achieve anything meaningful. By presenting all these dramatic situations, and themes, from the perspective of different characters is a lofty ambition that people probably think they can do if they watch Pulp Fiction enough times-- but this proves how difficult it is. You don't care about any of it. You just want to kill stuff.