Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)

[Replies From View]

I can't be the only one in this thread that thinks it's turned into a pile of negative wank. Like certain people are loving to hate this and were well prepared to do so before it aired. Could have been a classic series and they would have shat all over it.

No, this is nonsense.

I'm personally very relieved that people here are seeing the series in the way I am.  The rest of the internet seems to be radiating such positivity about it that I'd be feeling very lonely and probably crying in frustration if I didn't have this thread.

I want to love Doctor Who.  I didn't pre-order series 11 in order to hate it.

[Catalogue Trousers]

The problem is that whenever the Doctor has a revelation along these lines, it is never as a result of something tangible taking place.  It's just a load of words that suddenly start pouring out of her:  she spouts a number of assumptions based on nothing, bundles in some made-up planet/monster names that you can only tune out from, and burbles exposition to move everyone to a new location.

There is nothing there to make you notice or remember anything she says.

So just like all of those times when Eccleston and Tennant pulled sudden reams of amazingly useful info-dump out of their arses, then.

[Replies From View]

So just like all of those times when Eccleston and Tennant pulled sudden reams of amazingly useful info-dump out of their arses, then.

I don't agree that these have the same feel, sorry.  That was just an attempt at putting my finger on what feels wrong, but I might not have identified what it is.  Maybe somebody else could have a go at explaining the problem.

[Cloud]

Finally caught up with the episode.  I knew the familiar voice wouldn't be anyone interesting but here was me thinking it'd be racist time fonz, I wasn't expecting it to be Tim McGraw.  I guess it makes sense from a classic "full circle" style of writing.

The first 20 minutes (or it might have been 10, I was just so bored) was boring as shit.  It was slower paced than an old Troughton serial.  Thankfully it woke me up from around the time Graham's dark side emerged, and from then on kept me quite interested.

"I need wellies!   I love wellies!  I half invented them!"  - fuck off with this trope.

From various rumours, possibly planted, I thought Graham was genuinely going to either blow himself up and take that thing with him or at least kill him and get kicked out.   So it was actually quite cool to see him be the bigger man after all.

I liked the bit where she says "right this will probably be beyond your comprehension" and the lad walks in like "oh right, transcendental dimensions"

But  yeah..... slow start, but kicks it up later on.  I still think it's not got anywhere near the charm or energy of the past clips I posted a few pages back, but it was alright.


Bummer about the confirmation that the next series is 2020.  Fucks sake.  At least last time they did this I was sort of looking forward to it?  As it stands it's like... meh.... I'll just forget that DW exists and maybe think about watching it when it feels like coming back.  This sort of thing will be the death of the show.  And very cynical to move the special to New Year's Day just so they can say "oh yeah there will be Doctor Who in 2019!"
Why's it so hard to produce?  Half of it is filmed in quarries like it's the 1970s anyway, and they churned out loads back then?

Trying not to be negative, honestly.  It's just that I'm not arsed enough that waiting for 2020 is in any way going to bother me, and that in itself DOES bother me as it suggests it's not good enough to really look forward to.

One thing - I do think 'The Battle of Garmonbozia' featured the nicest shot yet of the new console room:

LMAO it's so tiny (that's what she said)
Just needs Richard O'Brien stood outside asking for the fans to start

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

Anything's better than that.

I can't be the only one in this thread that thinks it's turned into a pile of negative wank. Like certain people are loving to hate this and were well prepared to do so before it aired. Could have been a classic series and they would have shat all over it. I'd expect that shit from a scum hole like GB but not CaB.

Tiresome to say the least. Concentrate on the positives and enjoy what you can. Rather than rushing on here to pick over the negatives or even worse SLATE IT WHILE ITS HALF WAY FUCKING THROUGH AND POST ON A FORUM RATHER THAN PAY ATTENTION.

I'm done with it. I left GB due to incessant idiocy. Close to doing same here. At least there is the Classic & Audio threads to enjoy and thanks to the posters who made decent posts.

Bunch of miserable bawbags...

That's an entirely unfair and reductive misrepresentation of this thread, Malcy. It really fucks me off to high heaven when people dismiss reasoned debate out of hand: that's GB levels of conversation, binary, boring and pointless.

[Psmith]

At least Matt made the gobbledygook sound plausible.She can't act her way out of a paper bag.

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

At least Matt made the gobbledygook sound plausible.She can't act her way out of a paper bag.

That's shite as well. Jodie isn't the problem, Doctor Who is now written and orchestrated by an utterly incompetent dullard.

Do you seriously think that Matt Smith, or any other good actor, could elevate Chibnall's drivel? An impossible task.

[Talulah, really!]

I can't be the only one in this thread that thinks it's turned into a pile of negative wank. Like certain people are loving to hate this and were well prepared to do so before it aired. Could have been a classic series and they would have shat all over it. I'd expect that shit from a scum hole like GB but not CaB.

No, you are not, and the whole 'actually, I think you'll find we are having a reasoned debate,' is an utter pile of tripe as well.

[Thomas]

Do you really that, Talulah? Don't you think a lot of people are expressing genuinely held opinions? We've all liked and disliked, criticised and defended episodes before now.

General credit has been given to episodes like 'Fell to Earth', 'Rosa', 'Demons', and 'Frog'. Most were onboard for forty minutes of 'Kerblam!'. There's been praise for Jodie and Bradley. Personally, I'm hopeful for the special.

[Mango Chimes]

If only I could remember when the Doctor Who threads and CaB in general avoided negative criticism. Maybe, if I put something on my temple, my memories will come back, and I'll recall nothing of intrigue or value to the plot, there'll be no revelations or surprises and my recollection will have no dramatic worth, and then I'll just walk off with a big group of nameless people I guess we've rescued who presumably are each going through the terrifying memory loss I experienced but don't seem that bothered by it, and that'll be considered a satisfying resolution to this episode I mean thread.

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

No, you are not, and the whole 'actually, I think you'll find we are having a reasoned debate,' is an utter pile of tripe as well.

So you've missed the countless posts in which myself and many, many, many others have expressed genuinely held positive thoughts about this series, while also expressing, in some detail, our genuinely held misgivings?

EDIT: What Thomas said, almost to the letter.

[Talulah, really!]

So you've missed the countless posts in which myself and many, many, many others have expressed genuinely held positive thoughts about this series, while also expressing, in some detail, our genuinely held misgivings?

I refer the honourable Gentleman to the answer given some moments ago.

Doctor Who is now written and orchestrated by an utterly incompetent dullard.

elevate Chibnall's drivel? An impossible task. (7 letters)

Somewhat mean, but you get the point, that's not reasoned debate, it's abuse, that it is heartfelt I don't doubt but I didn't say anybodies opinions weren't sincere, though that seems to get thrown against me for some reason, rather just don't pretend that a lot of the posts in here are not of the sneery, piss taking type, some to a hysterical* degree and that the overall tone is negative and that can be a bit of weary read for those like the series.

*In both senses.

[Norton Canes]

I certainly don't think there's much evidence of gratuitous negativity in this thread - a lot of posters are clearly exasperated with the direction the show has taken, but are expressing their dissatisfaction with eloquence, insight and consideration.

I think what is happening a little bit is that people who are on a downer with the show are picking at areas that wouldn't otherwise be a focus for criticism. For example there have been constant complaints about the new TARDIS interior, but I'm sure if the stories had all been sufficiently exciting and engaging it wouldn't have had more than a passing mention amidst the praise.

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

I refer the honourable Gentleman to the answer given some moments ago.

Somewhat mean, but you get the point, that's not reasoned debate, it's abuse, that it is heartfelt I don't doubt but I didn't say anybodies opinions weren't sincere, though that seems to get thrown against me for some reason, rather just don't pretend that a lot of the posts in here are not of the sneery, piss taking type, some to a hysterical* degree and that the overall tone is negative and that can be a bit of weary read for those like the series.

*In both senses.

Fair enough, I get that, but this thread has been full of constructive criticism. I hope I've contributed to that conversation. I've also been guilty of blithely taking the piss, but that's because I've run out of things to say about this series. It doesn't deserve, in my view, further consideration. Maybe I should just shut up in that case, I probably should, but taking the piss is just another way of venting one's frustration with something you care deeply about.

[Cloud]

I'm trying to like it!  I wouldn't say it's been bad, I just wish it had the... pizzazz?  of previous series, and the Chibnall episodes have on the whole been of a somewhat lower par than the others.

[lemurman]

I can't be the only one in this thread that thinks it's turned into a pile of negative wank.

Tiresome to say the least. Concentrate on the positives and enjoy what you can.

Bunch of miserable bawbags...

I'd watch any other episode of Who over a Moffat episode. Guy is so full of his own shite and ego. Can't fucking stand him. His writing, his hair, his fucking voice. So glad he's gone.

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No, you are not, and the whole 'actually, I think you'll find we are having a reasoned debate,' is an utter pile of tripe as well.

I don't like being told I am being wilfully negative, trying to hate it, any more than you like being told that you are pretending to like it.

People are just being honest, and if they're expressing frustration then who cares.  People sometimes need to work their way out of their frustrations.

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(Quoting Malcy)

Thanks for your reminder of the hypocrisy on display.

[Norton Canes]

There are a couple of corollary issues resulting from the lack of quality in Chibnall's season. Firstly, though I agree that people have the right to not only criticise but ridicule the series, and I also agree with the majority of the actual criticisms, it really does pain me (sorry to sound so melodramatic) that the show is now held in open contempt on CaB, in a way that has only really been equaled by... Derek. I mean, all that vitriol and derision... now directed at Doctor Who. That's an awful state of affairs. Furthermore: in the past, when the Harry Potter contingent in our office have started rambling on about their shitty franchise, I've always taken comfort in the fact that I've been an acolyte of a superior creation. But I genuinely wouldn't place the show the way it is now on any higher plane than JK Rowling's handiwork. To such depths has it sunk.

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

EDIT: Talking rubbish, ignore.

[Replies From View]

There are a couple of corollary issues resulting from the lack of quality in Chibnall's season. Firstly, though I agree that people have the right to not only criticise but ridicule the series, and I also agree with the majority of the actual criticisms, it really does pain me (sorry to sound so melodramatic) that the show is now held in open contempt on CaB, in a way that has only really been equaled by... Derek. I mean, all that vitriol and derision... now directed at Doctor Who. That's an awful state of affairs. Furthermore: in the past, when the Harry Potter contingent in our office have started rambling on about their shitty franchise, I've always taken comfort in the fact that I've been an acolyte of a superior creation. But I genuinely wouldn't place the show the way it is now on any higher plane than JK Rowling's handiwork. To such depths has it sunk.

Well I agree with this, but the love is still intrinsically there with Doctor Who; we are just riding out the current situation.  It's just more horrible when you are within a shit era rather than viewing it as a bubble in the past like the long-recovered-from Eric Saward years.

Probably more than other audiences Doctor Who fans and CaB members are an obsessive lot.  That fact is not going to change (I'm sure we are all on the spectrum somewhere) and the best thing to do is probably to drift with the tide, join in, enjoy and/or get pissed off alongside or against the various moods we have.


Now read this post in the voice of Jodie Whittaker.

[Mister Six]

"I need wellies!   I love wellies!  I half invented them!"  - fuck off with this trope.

Yeah, there were at least three or four instances of "X! I love X. [Comical remark about X]." in this episode, although I'll be damned if I'm rewatching this to record them.

I came out of this supposed finale feeling weirdly anaesthetised. Somewhere inside me there's a little ball of resentment that Chibnall couldn't even pull his shit together for what ought to be a rousing season ender (The Doctor answering a seemingly mundane distress call and ending up saving billions of people on shrinky-dink planets!), but I feel it only in the abstract; when I try to feel anything about it I just do a mental shrug. Maybe I burned out my Chibnall circuits with the one-two fistfucking of Arachnids and Tsuranga.

Still though: how outrageously incompetent of Chibnall was it to murder tension in both Arachnids and Tsuranga by having Ryan blather on about his dad, then not actually resolve that this season? Even if his dad appears in the NYE special, it'll have been five episodes and two months since he was last mentioned. Astonishing.

Anyway. In descending order of quality (and assuming each of them suffers from crappy dialogue):

1- It Takes You Away (9/10)
Full of genuinely interesting and fun ideas; hits the ground running, unlike so many episodes that struggled to fill the longer runtime; looks great for the most part; good use of the actor Kevin Eldon.

2- The Witchfinders (8/10)
Alan Cumming appears to have escaped from a Davies or Moffat season, back when people used to be allowed to have personalities; lots of good lines and some fun character dynamics; decent FX; let down by some incredibly poor blocking.

3- Demons of the Punjab (7/10)
Solid story, if a bit slow; does a good job of getting across the tensions and problems of partition - doesn't let the UK off the hook but also acknowledges that it was problems on the ground that fed into the violence; very affecting ending and mostly solid guest performances; looks grand.

4- Rosa (7/10)
Punjab's twin in many ways; neatly avoids every obvious problem with this kind of story; looks fabulous; let down by a bland actor for Racist Time Fonz and not giving him a proper comeuppance (the latter fine if they do bring him back at some point).

5- The Woman Who Fell to Earth (7/10)
Fair play to Chibnall: it's only the nonsense, pointless death of Grace and The Doctor's inexplicable reprimanding of Gary for giving Tim Shaw the boot that really stand out as writing issues here - the rest of the plotting is perfectly competent; some surprising nastiness (which disappeared for the rest of the season); great FX; most cinematic visuals the show's ever had; well-designed monster; but strangled by crap dialogue and a general sense of flatness.

7- The Ghost Monument (5/10)
Great effects and some good ideas let down by Chibnall having no idea how to build tension, develop ideas or sustain a threat. What happened to The Infinity Child, or whatever it was? Why didn't this planet - with its Stenza-controlled evil science lab - play into the finale?

7- Kerblam! (4/10)
Stupid fucking political message turns a slow but occasionally mildly interesting episode into a shitfest; they need to stop doing episodes where machines are unable to fire directly at a slow-moving, predictable target.

8- The Battle of Nobody Wants to Bother Googling This (3/10)
I watched this last night and I still can't remember much about it; total failure to wrap up any of the (theoretical) ongoing plot points (including, but not limited to: Ryan's dad, The Infinity Child or whatever it was, the Stenza's poison planet, Yaz's relationship with her family... it did have some Ryan/Graham stuff, but that was a retread of It Takes You Away).

9- The Tsuranga Conundrum (2/100)
Good monster, some decent lines - and that's about it for the positives; too many half-thought-out ideas (What was the point of the robot? Why wasn't the pregnant bloke used for any kind of drama? Why didn't it matter in the end whether The Doctor got back to the TARDIS? What were they even looking for at the start? Why did her injuries not play into the plot at all?); no tension;  non-characters.

10- Arachnids in the UK (1/10)
Worse than Cyberwoman, because at least that was (I assume) unintentionally funny; no ending; bodged satire; waste of Yaz's family; first appearance of "Ryan murders the tension by talking about his dad"; no sense of threat; singlehandedly killed Mrs Six's interest in the series.

[Mister Six]

Somewhat mean, but you get the point, that's not reasoned debate, it's abuse, that it is heartfelt I don't doubt but I didn't say anybodies opinions weren't sincere, though that seems to get thrown against me for some reason, rather just don't pretend that a lot of the posts in here are not of the sneery, piss taking type, some to a hysterical* degree and that the overall tone is negative and that can be a bit of weary read for those like the series.

*In both senses.

You've been on CaB long enough to know that sneery piss-taking is par for the course here, surely? And it's only happening because, for the most part, people here - myself included - are disappointed with the objectively (yes, I said it) subpar writing from Chibnall. I don't think anyone went into this wanting it to be shit, but when so many of us are left flat by the show week after week, we have to make our own entertainment.

I'm sure you'd find it just as irritating if you hated all of Chibnall's episodes but came in here each week to find the pages filled with rapturous praise.

Why not write an impassioned defence of series 11?

[Kelvin]

Fair enough, I get that, but this thread has been full of constructive criticism. I hope I've contributed to that conversation. I've also been guilty of blithely taking the piss, but that's because I've run out of things to say about this series. It doesn't deserve, in my view, further consideration. Maybe I should just shut up in that case, I probably should, but taking the piss is just another way of venting one's frustration with something you care deeply about.

No, you shouldn't shut up. You've expressed positive and negative opinions, even though you feel the lead writer is bad. That is a reasonable position to take.

Maybe Talulah should have talked more about why she loved the series, if she thought the thread was too negative. We're not obliged to be positive about a series we believe is dull and often badly written. A negative thread reflects the show's quality.

[Mister Six]

Maybe I should just shut up

Kelvin got here before me, but I'll second his motion - don't shut up unless you really want to. I've enjoyed your thoughtful, reasoned criticism and sharp piss-taking alike, and there's no need for you to stop now. Is Tallulah Chibnall's mum or something? Regardless - carry on if you want to.

Furthermore: in the past, when the Harry Potter contingent in our office have started rambling on about their shitty franchise, I've always taken comfort in the fact that I've been an acolyte of a superior creation. But I genuinely wouldn't place the show the way it is now on any higher plane than JK Rowling's handiwork. To such depths has it sunk.

Rewatching the Harry Potter films at Mrs Six's behest and I can assure you that she is superior to Chibnall in every way. Interesting and distinctive characters, proper setting up and paying off of plotlines, quality worldbuilding and proper jokes. Obviously I'm seeing this through the filter of screenwriters and directors and producers and all that (and prior to that the books' editor(s)), but it's clear they're working with someone who actually has some talent. Who right now is a fucking dirge even compared to the first Fantastic Beasts film.

[Small Man Big Horse]

(I'm sure we are all on the spectrum somewhere)

Nah, I've done all the tests and don't come close. I'm a chronic depressive if that helps though!

[Kelvin]

Edit. Let's move on

[daf]

Future prediction :

Some autons will show up - so we get a "Yaz and the Plastic Population" episode.

Well that didn't happen - surely it's only a matter of time though, Shirley.

New pr'diction : next series, episode 3 - do it Chibblers, DO IT!!!!

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Dr Who : (breathlessly) We've got to get to the basement quick! I'll take the stairs, Yaz - you, Ryan and Grandad take the lift . . . Ooh, I love a lift -  once got trapped in one with BA Baracus - lovely bloke, but don't try and get him on "da plane, da plane" . . (chuckles) . . Fantasy Island? . . . or was that little feller in the Love Boat  . . . (does screwed up 'Nuh' face) . . Nik Nak? Odd Job? Hang on, it's on the tip of my t . . .

Graham : Er, Doc, I don't wan't to hurry you, but this lift is out of order - (demonstrates by jabbing button) -  it won't go down!

Yaz : Ey up - dos tha' mean the only way is up?

Ryan : Yeh . . For you and me babe!

Dr Who : Hold on, hold on . . .

[Ambient Sheep]

Trapped underground with the sole exit being a mineshaft. So they get to it and the Only Way Is...


EDIT: Oh FFS your last two paragraphs weren't there when I wrote that!!

That song actually makes me well up.  Too many painfully happy yet unfulfilled memories associated with it.


EDIT 2: Five paragraphs now... :-)

[daf]

EDIT: Oh FFS your last two paragraphs weren't there when I wrote that!!

Soz Sheepie - great minds!

(I tend to tinker a lot after posting -  can't stop polishing those golden turds!)