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March 28, 2024, 09:10:31 AM

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Rail strike next month?

Started by Fambo Number Mive, May 11, 2022, 10:46:41 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Johnny Yesno

I'm pretty sure Zetetic has previously explained why when we were one of the G6 EU countries, it wouldn't have been impossible for our government to throw it's weight around and re-nationalise the railways anyway.

Provided the government actually wanted to do that, of course. From that point of view, it has about as much chance of happening now as it did then.

KennyMonster

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on June 27, 2022, 11:29:57 AMI'm pretty sure Zetetic has previously explained why when we were one of the G6 EU countries, it wouldn't have been impossible for our government to throw it's weight around and re-nationalise the railways anyway.

Provided the government actually wanted to do that, of course. From that point of view, it has about as much chance of happening now as it did then.

Surely one EU member being 'more equal' than other ones would lead to other member states leaving?
Starting with the smaller ones who didn't have enough weight to throw around and break the rules.

Zetetic

Apparently not, for better or worse.

(All sorts of member states routinely ignore the Commission etc., over both economic stuff and Article 2 violations, again for better or worse.)

KennyMonster

Quote from: Zetetic on June 27, 2022, 11:47:43 AMApparently not, for better or worse.

(Member states routinely ignore the Commission etc., over both economic stuff and Article 2 violations, again for better or worse.)

Interesting.

Lib Dems are still a bunch of Twunts though, yes?

Buelligan

I don't know a great deal about the Law, we have a passing acquaintance at best, however, reading this https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-8-2015-003938-ASW_EN.html  it strikes me that some of the privatisation floatations under the ancien tory regime, may be equally questionable.

I'd be interested to listen to that podcast, do you have a link or anything?

Zetetic

I guess I'm more sympathetic to the idea these days that it provides cover to government who doesn't want to do something, but they can use almost anything for that:

Welsh Labour told us that they couldn't risk abolishing Section 21 evictions or extending notice periods because it would violate the human rights of landlords (specifically their right to enjoy private property)...

KennyMonster

Quote from: Buelligan on June 27, 2022, 11:55:33 AMI'd be interested to listen to that podcast, do you have a link or anything?

The 'Modern Monetary Theory' series of Podcasts.

Available on all good Podcast platforms (AND on Apple Podcasts too).

Couple of strange things about it.
"MMT"
When Theresa May used the phrase "Magic Money Tree" was is (her only) political masterstroke to associate the initials MMT with wishful thinking?

It is co-hosted my Christian Riley, Richard Herring's go-to comedy musician, I had to look it up to confirm that it is the same guy. 

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Zetetic on June 27, 2022, 11:59:52 AMI guess I'm more sympathetic to the idea these days that it provides cover to government who doesn't want to do something

Absolutely. The tories would do some plotting with their neoliberal mates in the EU then tell us sorry, the EU made us do this.

QuoteWelsh Labour told us that they couldn't risk abolishing Section 21 evictions or extending notice periods because it would violate the human rights of landlords (specifically their right to enjoy private property)...

Ha, fucking hell.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: KennyMonster on June 27, 2022, 12:02:02 PMWhen Theresa May used the phrase "Magic Money Tree" was is (her only) political masterstroke to associate the initials MMT with wishful thinking?

Interesting. I never spotted that.

Mr_Simnock

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on June 27, 2022, 11:29:57 AMI'm pretty sure Zetetic has previously explained why when we were one of the G6 EU countries, it wouldn't have been impossible for our government to throw it's weight around and re-nationalise the railways anyway.

Provided the government actually wanted to do that, of course. From that point of view, it has about as much chance of happening now as it did then.

This appears to explain that, for those folk who don't want to trawl through manwareing's zetetic's post (I don't blame them). Basically we could have renationalised the railways but we would have had to have left say 10%-20% of it to private companies and thus get round EU laws like France sort of did.

Quote from: Fambo Number Mive on June 25, 2022, 03:52:31 PMThese are the six reasons the RMT gave for leaving the European Union: https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-sets-out-six-key-reasons-for-leaving-the-eu/

While I still think Brexit was a mistake, the EU has hardly  helped itself with some of its actions in the past, although I think Britain trying to help reform the EU would have been better than just leaving.

The RMT made the following comments in 2019 on Brexit:

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/members-updates/the-effects-of-brexit-on-rmt-members160919/

Either way the RMT's stance on Brexit is irrelevant to these strikes, but I thought I would give more clarity on why the RMT supported Brexit in 2016.

Cheers Fambo,  I'm no Brexit fan either but can't really argue with those points.

Fambo Number Mive

Liberal Democrat MP for Twickenham Munira Wilson has called for the army to be sent in to "get nurses and doctors to work" Video below:

https://twitter.com/CerdynJones/status/1540989229811073025

That's bascially sending the army in to strikebreak, isn't it?

The Lib Dems - basically Tories who don't hate the EU.

katzenjammer

Quote from: Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle on June 27, 2022, 01:53:25 PMCheers Fambo,  I'm no Brexit fan either but can't really argue with those points.

Looks to me like none of those things have happened or are likely to. And at least some EU countries have better and cheaper rail networks than the UK


Zetetic

Quote from: Mr_Simnock on June 27, 2022, 01:50:45 PMbut we would have had to have left say 10%-20% of it to private companies and thus get round EU laws like France sort of did.
Nah, you're still treating laws like they're magic.

Zetetic

(An affliction which will only become.more dangerous in the UK in the next few years, I'd guess.)

Mr_Simnock

Quote from: Zetetic on June 27, 2022, 02:42:34 PMNah, you're still treating laws like they're magic.

I'm not treating them like magic, you really know how to come across like a complete pompous twat so many times

Zetetic

Quote from: Mr_Simnock on June 27, 2022, 03:52:16 PMI'm not treating them like magic
The belief that member states successfully navigate the laws of the EU by finding the right form of words or some special way of naming things or by some riddler's accounting trick, rather than those being part of the bigger game of give-and-take and a way of showing a degree of commitment to the wider system is the same as believing that the laws are magical.

(This matters insofar as you end up with people believing that removing the laws is the same as removing the relations between the states that are essential to their enforcement.)

Quoteyou really know how to come across like a complete pompous twat so many times
Well, yes, but that doesn't change the above.

TrenterPercenter

The criticisms of the EU can still be valid and Brexit being the answer can still be wrong.


Cheers, thanks.

Mr_Simnock

Quote from: Zetetic on June 27, 2022, 04:00:21 PMThe belief that member states successfully navigate the laws of the EU by finding the right form of words or some special way of naming things or by some riddler's accounting trick, rather than those being part of the bigger game of give-and-take and a way of showing a degree of commitment to the wider system is the same as believing that the laws are magical.

I link to an article that tries to explain that rail nationisation is possible under EU law and also offer a possible way to do it, that's it, and you come back with this dog shit. At no point at all do I try to state these things are solid, unmovable and set in stone, I know full well about flexibility etc in the system, your creating an argument out of thin air.

Pink Gregory

Quote from: Fambo Number Mive on June 27, 2022, 02:01:39 PMLiberal Democrat MP for Twickenham Munira Wilson has called for the army to be sent in to "get nurses and doctors to work" Video below:

https://twitter.com/CerdynJones/status/1540989229811073025

That's bascially sending the army in to strikebreak, isn't it?

The Lib Dems - basically Tories who don't hate the EU.

I hate how childlike their communications always are.  'ooh got to get the doctors and nurses to the big hostipal so they can make people feel better'. 

Zetetic

Quote from: Mr_Simnock on June 27, 2022, 04:41:59 PMI link to an article that tries to explain that rail nationisation is possible under EU law
The article is good, and I'm grateful for you posting it; I should have said as much, earlier.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Mr_Simnock on June 27, 2022, 04:41:59 PMyour creating an argument out of thin air.

you've got to admit he is good at it though.

Mr_Simnock

Quote from: Zetetic on June 27, 2022, 05:00:56 PMThe article is good, and I'm grateful for you posting it; I should have said as much, earlier.

Thank you, appreciated.

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on June 27, 2022, 05:09:12 PMyou've got to admit he is good at it though.

Fucking weird to be attacked on a point\position I never made, you can end up doubting yourself when there is no need to.

Fambo Number Mive

The RMT have written a new report called Bailing out the TOCs, which you can see here: https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/tory-contracts-boosted-rail-fat-cats-profits/

I haven't read the report

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Mr_Simnock on June 27, 2022, 05:26:49 PMFucking weird to be attacked on a point\position I never made, you can end up doubting yourself when there is no need to.

I know the feeling well.

Buelligan

Quote from: Fambo Number Mive on June 27, 2022, 05:28:57 PMThe RMT have written a new report called Bailing out the TOCs, which you can see here: https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/tory-contracts-boosted-rail-fat-cats-profits/

I haven't read the report

Well, at least we don't have to worry about whether the public should fund the railways and how privatising it is the answer any more.  This tory government are utterly despicable.

And now this -

Quote from: The TUC linked belowAn independent legal opinion published today (Sunday) undermines the Conservative government's claims that the rail dispute is just between the rail operators and unions, and that ministers have no role in negotiations.

And it clarifies that the contracts between rail operators and government allow the government to apply financial sanctions if operators do not follow the directions given by the government in the current dispute.

https://www.tuc.org.uk/news/conservative-government-has-misled-public-its-role-directing-rail-firms-dispute-says-tuc

Blumf

Post Office workers getting bolshie

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61957004
QuoteThousands of Post Office staff are to strike in a dispute over pay.

Members of the Communication Workers Union (CWU) at 114 Crown Post Offices - the larger branches often sited on high streets - will walk out on 11 July.

It will be the third strike by Post Office workers this year, with the union saying members rejected a pay offer it said was worth 3% and a £500 lump sum.

Barristers getting bolshie

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61946038
QuoteBarristers in criminal cases have gone on strike across England and Wales in a long-running dispute over pay.

Eight out of 10 cases at London's Old Bailey were disrupted by the walkout, barristers outside the court said.

Justice Secretary Dominic Raab said the strikes will "delay justice", as courts already face a backlog of 58,000 cases.

It's all kicking off!

Armed Traffic Warden

BBC News reporting that the Government are threatening to go on strike unless people stop being mean to them.

Mr Johnson having raised his snout from his trough (apparently a euphemism for his pet anacondas anus) is quoted as saying 'Please... please stop stopping me pals and me swanning off with all ya wonga, all easy like. Just be cool, yeah? OK ya slags? what! what!'.

Mr Starmer informed the BBC that it wasn't his place go comment.

Sebastian Cobb

It's not the optimum solution but the tories in government and not actively torying is preferable to them being in government and torying so...