Schweinstein 2: Sexual Abuse & Misconduct Allegations In Hollywood. Or Anywhere.

[Funcrusher]

Well, if you'd read the story before commenting you'd have seen that the reason she was tied to the chair was that she was a whistleblower on the 'misogynistic culture' at her workplace. So it wasn't that this individual incident was inherently sexist, but rather that it was the culmination of literally years of sexist bullying. So it's not always easy to draw hypothetical equivalences. Context really is everything.

Yeah, but this kind of treatment of men in the workplace for hazing, practical jokery or whatever goes on all the time largely unremarked. And it's the photo of this particular incident which has caused the outrage.

[Funcrusher]

Also, I am not sure it is useful to make draw equivalences between the sexes as both will have different sorts of life experiences that give certain things added weight and meaning.

So not equal treatment regardless of gender?

[Monsieur Verdoux]

Yeah, but this kind of treatment of men in the workplace for hazing, practical jokery or whatever goes on all the time largely unremarked.

True, but irrelevant.

And it's the photo of this particular incident which has caused the outrage.

No, the context that caused the photo is also a big part of the outrage.

[phantom_power]

So not equal treatment regardless of gender?

Not in all things no, obviously. Equality doesn't mean treating people the same in all circumstances. That would be madness

[Monsieur Verdoux]

So not equal treatment regardless of gender?

That's the broader goal, but not the reality/cultural context that we actually exist within presently.

[Harry Badger]

Weinstein to be arrested by NYPD tomorrow according to BBC news.

[Beagle 2]

That's the problem, people working for Marine Scotland have people waiting on them hand and foot and strangers saying they love them on a daily basis.

Just popping into the thread to say how much this made me laugh. Carry in.

[Funcrusher]

True, but irrelevant.

If this kind of treatment is unacceptable then that should apply equally to all.

No, the context that caused the photo is also a big part of the outrage.

I disagree. The photo evokes the response, in the way that images always do. It is about the photo, that's the major part of the outrage. And it has particular resonance because it's a woman in the picture.

[Funcrusher]

That's the broader goal, but not the reality/cultural context that we actually exist within presently.

Indeed, and there are aspects of the current reality/cultural context where men are not treated equally which we might attend to.

[Monsieur Verdoux]

If this kind of treatment is unacceptable then that should apply equally to all.

Yes, it should. Did anyone say it shouldn't?

I disagree. The photo evokes the response, in the way that images always do. It is about the photo, that's the major part of the outrage. And it has particular resonance because it's a woman in the picture.

Yeah, double down all you want, you can't get away from the fact that there's enough substance to this story to make your rather facile attempt at an equivalency irrelevant and actually no help to the cause you profess to be advocating for. You just seem like you're selectively ignoring specifics in order to deflect. If you want to talk about men's issues, find a story and start a thread.

[Monsieur Verdoux]

Indeed, and there are aspects of the current reality/cultural context where men are not treated equally which we might attend to.

Who said there weren't

[Urinal Cake]

Is it hazing when the woman alleges it was punishment for dobbing people in to management?

[Funcrusher]

Yeah, double down all you want, you can't get away from the fact that there's enough substance to this story to make your rather facile attempt at an equivalency irrelevant and actually no help to the cause you profess to be advocating for. You just seem like you're selectively ignoring specifics in order to deflect. If you want to talk about men's issues, find a story and start a thread.

I'm not doubling down on anything. This is a story because there's a photo and it's a story about a photo primarily. This is how news always works and images are always more charged than words. And part of that is that pictures like this will cause a much bigger reaction if the subject is female, which says something about how we see and think about men and women. It's an observation.

[Funcrusher]

Who said there weren't

Not me. I just pointed one out.

[Monsieur Verdoux]

I'm not doubling down on anything. This is a story because there's a photo and it's a story about a photo primarily. This is how news always works and images are always more charged than words. And part of that is that pictures like this will cause a much bigger reaction if the subject is female, which says something about how we see and think about men and women. It's an observation.

this is a triple down

you're just doing what you always do

[Isnt Anything]

I love the fact that people have posted so many times on this thread over the last few months saying 'so when is Weinstein gonna be arrested then ?' and when it finally ( kinda ) happens not one but two people post it and everybody just completely ignores it and carries on about the Marine Scotland twats. :D

( i came here to post it too but no need )

[Lemming]

Indeed, and there are aspects of the current reality/cultural context where men are not treated equally which we might attend to.

Isn't the discussion we're having in the wake of #MeToo and other recent events about the way men and women are socialised already attempting to address this? "Toxic masculinity" is an example, although that's a terribly worded term that tends to set people off. Obviously men are hazed (or, more accurately, viciously bullied) at work, school/university and other places all the time, but the perpetrators of that particular type of bullying are almost always other men. 100% of the physical bullying I received growing up was from other men. It seems to me like the general direction of current feminist thought - towards identifying and subsequently deconstructing/dismantling gender roles for both men and women - is already starting to attend to many areas where double standards that hurt men exist.

Incidentally, I don't think I've ever seen a single men's rights organisation that seems to be representing me or advocating for my interests in any way whatsoever.

[Funcrusher]

Is it hazing when the woman alleges it was punishment for dobbing people in to management?

No, it's the subject of a full review which will report directly to the First Minister.

[Funcrusher]

this is a triple down

you're just doing what you always do

And you're just doing what you always do.

[Monsieur Verdoux]

yeah, calling you out for making a knee-jerk false equivalency

this literally wouldn't happen if you actually thought before you posted

[Monsieur Verdoux]

and that's my message to all you folks out there: think before posting

consider two things:

1) is everything exactly the same, or does context matter?

2) are you more angry at a hypothetical scenario in your own head than you are at the real story in front of you?

THINK

[Funcrusher]

Isn't the discussion we're having in the wake of #MeToo and other recent events about the way men and women are socialised already attempting to address this? "Toxic masculinity" is an example, although that's a terribly worded term that tends to set people off. Obviously men are hazed (or, more accurately, viciously bullied) at work, school/university and other places all the time, but the perpetrators of that particular type of bullying are almost always other men. 100% of the physical bullying I received growing up was from other men. It seems to me like the general direction of current feminist thought - towards identifying and subsequently deconstructing/dismantling gender roles for both men and women - is already starting to attend to many areas where double standards that hurt men exist.

The male dominance hierarchy that drives bullying derives from what society deems to be value or status for men. It's the male equivalent of girls developing eating disorders or mental health problems because of social pressures to be thin or conventionally pretty, but the equal pressures on boys all to often ignored because societal norms are to be stoical. Current feminist thoughts job is to understand and deconstruct women's gender roles, which is fine. But it doesn't, in my view, understand what men's issues are or how to address them, which aren't jobs for feminism anyway. Men need to figure this out for themselves.

[Twed]

Tune in next week when Funcrusher suggests that we stop worrying about poor hungry people and turn our attention to people who are so rich they their food has made them a little chubby

And yes, war torn Syrians are losing limbs, but have you seen the statistics for five-a-side football injuries in Surrey? Actual visible grazing on some of those shins.

[Funcrusher]

and that's my message to all you folks out there: think before posting

consider two things:

1) is everything exactly the same, or does context matter?

2) are you more angry at a hypothetical scenario in your own head than you are at the real story in front of you?

THINK

This is about the scenario in your head. There is literally no way that I can word a post saying that the response to whatever would be different if the subject was male rather than female without you imagining that I am furiously hammering at my keyboard in anger. It's just an observation. And I maintain that without the picture this isn't a story.

[Funcrusher]

Tune in next week when Funcrusher suggests that we stop worrying about poor hungry people and turn our attention to people who are so rich they their food has made them a little chubby

Illustrating rather well why it can be difficult to get much traction for men's or boy's issues.

[Lemming]

The male dominance hierarchy that drives bullying derives from what society deems to be value or status for men. It's the male equivalent of girls developing eating disorders or mental health problems because of social pressures to be thin or conventionally pretty, but the equal pressures on boys all to often ignored because societal norms are to be stoical. Current feminist thoughts job is to understand and deconstruct women's gender roles, which is fine. But it doesn't, in my view, understand what men's issues are or how to address them, which aren't jobs for feminism anyway. Men need to figure this out for themselves.

I've seen a lot of feminists work on stopping society and the media from pushing gendered behaviours onto male kids, and that includes the expectation for boys to be stoic and emotionally repressed that I'm sure we've both been exposed to as kids. Even in cases where the focus is on stopping male socialisation due to the way it can result in women being endangered, there's still a positive effect for men in that we don't end up emotionally retarded husks. If we agree that gender/gender norms are the root cause of all gendered double standards, it seems to me like third wave feminism is the bandwagon to hop on (because for better or for worse, feminism is expected to do absolutely everything - it's the only social movement that keeps having to put "intersectional" before itself to stop people from complaining).

The main focus of this story is on misogyny because that seems to be exactly what lead to the employee being tied to a chair in the name of LEGENDARY BANTS, but it's part of a wider conversation about this type of behaviour in general. The "boys being boys" comment by the boss is particularly distressingly hilarious, because it demonstrates exactly the attitude that people are working to chip away at. If the male dominance hierarchy, as you called it, is destroyed by the work being done right now, men benefit just as much as women.

[Monsieur Verdoux]

This is, once again, classic Funcrusher!

First, the childish, baseless "no You"!

This is about the scenario in your head.

Then the quadruple down on the debunked, shitty, irrelevant point you impulsively made!

There is literally no way that I can word a post saying that the response to whatever would be different if the subject was male rather than female without you imagining that I am furiously hammering at my keyboard in anger. It's just an observation. And I maintain that without the picture this isn't a story.

why do you never fucking learn anything. seriously, this is unbelievably tedious. every fucking time you do this and you learn nothing

[bgmnts]

The difference is this isn't general hazing, this is gender specific attack on some poor fucker stepping up and trying to do the right thing in making people aware of misogyny in the work place.

I thought this was pretty cut and dry myself.

There was actually a horrible story in the news a few weeks ago about some teenage lad on work experience who was bullied by some pricks and ended up committing suicide after being locked in the boot of a car I think. Both stories were reported.

[Funcrusher]

This is, once again, classic Funcrusher!

First, the childish, baseless "no You"!
Then the quadruple down on the debunked, shitty, irrelevant point you made impulsively!
why do you never fucking learn anything. seriously, this is unbelievably tedious. every fucking time you do this and you learn nothing

And this is the usual Verdoux meltdown. Lemming's post I'll try to give response to when I'm more awake. Your rantings aren't worth my time and you've debunked nothing as usual. The ignore script beckons.

[Monsieur Verdoux]

I have debunked your claims that your initial point was in any way relevant, whether you want to admit it or not (others are indicating that you are incorrect too, in case you didn't notice). Put me on ignore if you're too fragile to take robust criticism.

And this is the usual Verdoux meltdown.

Another baseless "No You!". Please try to develop some self awareness, for your own sake.