David Kelly's pathologist rubbishes conspiracy theories [split topic]

[NoSleep]

Yes, I'm irritated because some dick is calling me a twat.

'Signing up to a forum' = a few keystrokes and a mouseclick or two.

Well, you've wasted your time by not reading to the end of that post that excited you so much; he isn't coming back.

I wish people with as much time on their hands as the writer of that piece would spend them looking into the actual crimes committed by the British state and not by trying to convince the already-convinced that Dr. Kelly was murdered by the state. But we've danced this dance before and I just don't have the energy any more.

[pissandwind]

Of course he's bloody not coming back. I've just pointed out he's a dick who confuses having a go at Aaro with some sort of Kelly-fixation, seems (like several people here) to have a weirdly exaggerated idea of how long it takes to type words, and casually chucks accusations of wooliness and supposition around.

Now, having curled off my own parting shot, I too shall bugger off, pausing only to strike a world-weary and long-suffering pose.

[biggytitbo]

Yes, I'm irritated because some dick is calling me a twat.

'Signing up to a forum' = a few keystrokes and a mouseclick or two.

Are you really the author of the article reviewing Aaronovitch's ridiculous piece in the Times then? Your tone is slightly different.

[NoSleep]

Oh really? Come on then vomboy, what are they then?

And why are you getting so very excitable about this? I don't get it.

Of course he's bloody not coming back.

You enjoy pissing in the wind?

[biggytitbo]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11061296

The police, the Catholic Church and the state conspired to cover up a priest's likely role in one of the worst atrocities of the Northern Ireland Troubles, an investigation has found.

Bloody conspiracy theories! I hope Aaronovitch is ready to give the BBC and the Northern Irish Police Ombudsman a well deserved kicking for spreading this obvious nonsense.

[Johnny Yesno]

Yes, I'm irritated because some dick is calling me a twat.

Who's done that, then?

[Still Not George]

Agree, but asking fm to explain his brief review seemed like a good question to me. It seems to me that those most certain Kelly killed himself are the ones most keen to frame the issue in terms of conspiracy theory, presumably because there's a whole toolkit of tediously over used 'hohoho they believe in aliens and hologram m' arguments at their disposal then.

You forgot to mention the lizards, I must remember to send you that pamphlet sometime.

Nah, this is bog-standard reframing work. A page ago the discussion was about Aaronovitch's barely-readable spewings, now it's about the motives of no less than two people who've announced they're no longer taking part in this discussion. Hell, I'm taking part in the reframe just by discussing the reframe. CURSE "THEM" AND THEIR WAYS!!!1!

[jutl]

What would show that there wasn't a conspiracy?

[biggytitbo]

What would show that there wasn't a conspiracy?

Talking of conspiracy is giving too much ammunition to the gatekeepers like Aaronovitch. It's also putting the cart before the horse, because since we believe the evidence for the suicide verdict is sketchy or unreliable, we also don't have enough to create an alternative scenario that has enough proof. What we have is pretty reasonable grounds for thinking the original verdict is flawed, and until it is investigated properly we won;t know more than that. Admittedly it's hard to resists speculating on alternative scenarios, but since the atmosphere is so hostile to people that question official accounts, precisely because of attack dogs like Aaronovitch and their perversion of the entire language surrounding 'conspiracy theory' I for one aren't going to give the smug pricks the satisfaction of debunking more 'unproven speculation'.

[pissandwind]

I am a weak and vain little man, and couldn't resist sneaking back for a quick peek. ('a bit forward in not coming back' is good, btw.)

At least one of the 'reframers' is actually a bona fide commenter:

http://surelysomemistake.blogspot.com/2010/08/piss-and-wind-david-aaronovitch-on.html?showComment=1282753000813#c7172333142521463178

[Johnny Yesno]

I am a weak and vain little man, and couldn't resist sneaking back for a quick peek. ('a bit forward in not coming back' is good, btw.)

Oh good. Which dick is calling you a twat?

[pissandwind]

Oh, someone was having a go at the thing I did about Aaronovitch, but was too tired to substantiate his remarks. He's not on this page. I'm not so irritated now.

[biggytitbo]

It was fm, who accused the author of various flaws in his (in my opinion excellent) article but didn't give any examples.

Anyway, back to Kelly. Another article in the guardian now, insisting that those who question the official narrative must provide some kind of alternative account complete with evidence, or 'shut up'. The flaws that concern people are with their evidence, so let's not allow debating games like this distract from that.

[Johnny Yesno]

It was fm, who accused the author of various flaws in his (in my opinion excellent) article but didn't give any examples.

Oh, someone was having a go at the thing I did about Aaronovitch, but was too tired to substantiate his remarks. He's not on this page. I'm not so irritated now.

But no one here called you a twat, yet you let loose with "vomboy" and "dick". Thanks for showing us how proper arguing is done with facts and stuff. I'm glad you're not overexcited now, anyway.

[pissandwind]

Sorry to have offended you, sweet delicate flower, with my robust challenge to vomboy, but he brought it up.

The subsequent foulmouthed torrent of sexual fuckwords is of course unforgivable, and your frisson of maidenly outrage entirely understandable.

But you must recognise that I was accused of writing a crap (sorry, suboptimal) blog post, while being given nothing whatsoever to actually argue about, with or without facts. And it shames me a touch to say it, but  VB successfully got right up my nose with that, the further superciliosity about having time on my hands, and preaching about what I should be writing about.

And now here I am still wanking on about it because I'm a mug for a windup/relentless hunter-down of snide comments (delete to taste).

[chand]

being given nothing whatsoever to actually argue about

Still, you gave it a bloody good go.

[Johnny Yesno]

Sorry to have offended you, sweet delicate flower, with my robust challenge to vomboy, but he brought it up.

The subsequent foulmouthed torrent of sexual fuckwords is of course unforgivable, and your frisson of maidenly outrage entirely understandable.

I'm not offended. I was just pointing out that you had got in a fluster over something that didn't happen.

But you must recognise that I was accused of writing a crap (sorry, suboptimal) blog post, while being given nothing whatsoever to actually argue about, with or without facts. And it shames me a touch to say it, but  VB successfully got right up my nose with that, the further superciliosity about having time on my hands, and preaching about what I should be writing about.

And now here I am still wanking on about it because I'm a mug for a windup/relentless hunter-down of snide comments (delete to taste).

You don't think you're coming across a bit sensitive yourself, there?

[NoSleep]

Yes; this is the internet, you know.

[thepuffpastryhangman]

You enjoy pissing in the wind?

It's certainly one of the more aptly titled tribute songs.

[biggytitbo]

Some interesting letters from doctors in the paper:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/letters/letters-perspectives-on-david-kellys-death-2063199.html

[biggytitbo]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1311255/Dr-David-Kellys-body-obviously-moved-Paramedic-death-scene-reveals-concerns-Hutton-Inquiry.html
The paramedic at these scene of kelly's death now says the body was far enough from the tree for him to get behind it to apply the heart monitor. The dog handlers who first discovered him say his body was slumped against the tree, so that would appear to confirm the body was moved by someone during that time.

[kngen]

whenever I hear about a disputed suicide where the person in question has slashed their wrists, I think of this man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Casolaro

[biggytitbo]

I've not heard of that case before, on what basis did people argue it was murder?

Of course one of the arguments  people make is that if some agency was to try and kill someone and make it look like suicide there are enough ways to do it to make it undetectable. Whichis true I suppose, but it depends on who it is and how competent they are.

[biggytitbo]

Weee...promis software seems to be at the heart of the castelero thing, which contains a genuinely interesting possible suggestion of industrial espionage, with the promis software been hawked on the black market, complete with trojons and backdoors for Americas enemies and rivals to hack into what they are doing.

[kngen]

I've not heard of that case before, on what basis did people argue it was murder?

Of course one of the arguments  people make is that if some agency was to try and kill someone and make it look like suicide there are enough ways to do it to make it undetectable. Whichis true I suppose, but it depends on who it is and how competent they are.

The two things I remember about the case were that some medical authority or other (apologies for being so vague, it was a long time since I read about him) said that the gashes were so deep on his wrists as to make it impossible to slash the other one afterwards. And there was talk of a bloody towel being stuffed behind a sink, so were he to have committed suicide, he would have had to have slashed his wrists, climbed out of the bath, hidden the towel, cleared up the trail of blood this left, and then climbed back into the bath. Unfortunately, with waaay-out-there conspiracists like Jim Keith taking up the Octopus case, it's become the domain of Alternative 3/Illuminati/Hitler-lives-in-the-South-Pole freaks, so any actual analysis of the case is muddied by reams of fantastical bullshit.

Fun fact: the investigative journalist in the Tim Robbins film Bob Roberts was based on Casolaro

[biggytitbo]

Well, in cases like that I do always find it hard to believe that someone who is active, who has plans and goals would commit suicide, but when you're talking about what's going on inside someones head it's very hard for anyone to really know.