Bayonetta series + the Bayonetta 3 voice acting debacle

[Thursday]

I skipped 95% of the cutscenes in Bayonetta 2. Her voice acting is fine, it's the other characters that were irritating as fuck. And I'm normally someone that enjoys garbage video game stories.

She seems daft, get the facts 100% straight if you're going to do something like this at least.

[Pink Gregory]

I skipped 95% of the cutscenes in Bayonetta 2. Her voice acting is fine, it's the other characters that were irritating as fuck. And I'm normally someone that enjoys garbage video game stories.

"So, for Bayonetta 2, just spitballing here, cocky child companion, and get this, unconvincing British accent."

[madhair60]

This is second/third hand from a friend of mine in the biz:

Video game / anime / etc. voice talent is not paid 6 figures for a single role of this scope. It's not done. It's not that she came out with an ambitious bid to value herself - it's that she asked for something entirely out of scale for the work being done. Which she is entitled to do if she wishes, but she never should have expected anything to come of it.

When celebrities do voice work in games, they are not offered that much. They are given the same base rates as "normal" voice actors for voice work, multiplied by whatever is negotiated. But even if six figures means 100,000 (it would usually mean more) that is 20x scale.

She essentially asked "I want to be the highest paid talent in video game history."

Then someone asked what you asked, citing Michael Hollick, the voice of Niko Bellic in GTAIV, who received around £100k across 15 months.

Not for this scale of work at all. As others have said, he was paid $1k per session - but many many more sessions, with much more work involved (mocap, etc).

Video games are technical and that's why the union rates have so many specifications. There is not a "main character" rate because in some cases it might involve mocap and rewrites and physical acting and all kinds of things.

In other cases all that was finalized in the Japanese version and you're just reading loc dialogue for 2 hours.

Another important thing to keep in mind is I believe the VA community has had 2 major negotiations/strike type situations since this "14 years ago" incident. So all the "we did it guys!" victory tweets VA's have tweeted in the meantime? Those are all IN EFFECT in the rates that Hellena was rejecting. So are Voice Actors underpaid? Maybe. But that is no longer part of the Bayonetta discussion it's a separate issue.

EDIT:

To be direct I guess, I've seen a lot of people going "both can be true: She could have lied AND the evil corporations of PG and Nintendo could have underpaid her"

They're not both true. She was offered well above union scale rate. They tried to play ball.

[Kelvin]

If they pay above union rates, why does Mipha sound so shit.

[Video Game Fan 2000]

I skipped 95% of the cutscenes in Bayonetta 2. Her voice acting is fine, it's the other characters that were irritating as fuck. And I'm normally someone that enjoys garbage video game stories.

Speaking as someone who has had a jrpg on the go at all times since the 90s and will fight people that FF X and XV were good games, the kid in Bayonetta 2 was too much for me. awful

[Crenners]

@madhair60 Cheers for that stuff.

Funny to see the desperate, fruitless backpedalling from people who were only too giddy to buy her bullshit.

[Dickie_Anders]

just make a new Metal Gear Rising for fuck's sake

[Pink Gregory]

https://www.videogameschronicle.com/review/bayonetta-3/

VGC Review up

Sounds like they've made something a bit more streamlined but less of an iterative sequel.  Probably the right thing to do.

[Mister Six]

Thanks @madhair60! Interesting stuff.

[Pink Gregory]

https://www.eurogamer.net/bayonetta-3-review-a-messy-melange-that-just-about-retains-platinumgames-magic

Eurogamer review up

[Ignatius_S]

https://opencritic.com/game/13466/bayonetta-3/reviews - review round-up

[Ignatius_S]

Thanks @madhair60! Interesting stuff.

This story touched upon star fees - https://gameworldobserver.com/2022/10/17/how-much-video-game-voice-actors-get-paid-hellena-taylor-bayonetta - and links to a Reuters story that suggests some top names get six-figure sums for one session or per hour.

However, there are a fair few well-established name actors who have done voice work when they can't afford to be too picky about what work they do and although would relatively well-paid, would be a lot cheaper than a lot would assume.

[oggyraiding]

https://twitter.com/jasonschreier/status/1586002385281122306

Former Bayonetta actress Hellena Taylor, who asked fans to boycott Bayonetta 3 in a video that was later proven to be misleading, has posted a list of charities to which she would like fans to instead donate. The list includes a Kentucky group that runs anti-abortion billboards

[falafel]

Has anyone played it?

[oggyraiding]

I played a few hours. Really do not like the demon summoning mechanic. You're expected to use it a lot, but it just amounts to remotely controlling a big screen hogging monster that moves like it's swimming in molasses, while having to not get backstabbed by a mook. Voice wise Bayonetta sounds fine, there's a new protagonist who has a shit design, Rodin cool as always.

[Pink Gregory]

Still waiting on my pre order, haven't finished Nier Automata yet so I'm gonna be sick of brawlers soon

[Video Game Fan 2000]

Has anyone played it?

like it more than 2 so far. turned on nihongo voices as recommended. new lass is APPALLINGLY designed with HORRENDOUS hot topic tim burton tier sidekick. in fact, so bad it makes me wonder if she's not a piss take of the dogshit DMC remake that came out just before Bayonetta 2. it stands out so much there is no way its not a joke or a Metal Gear Solid 2 thing surely.

not sure if i'll get into the kaiju paper scissors stone stuff because its so gloopy and the switch can't push a decent enough resolution to let you see bayonetta properly when the playfield is zoomd out and full of unreadable giant nonsense. but astral chain and wonderful 101 had me liking all kinds of gimmicky bollocks that i initially thought were S4C so we'll see

very sad that they got rid of one of the best visual puns in gaming - collectables are no longer angel halos as sonic rings. boo boo boo. just terrible. game almost ruined but enzo has chaos emerald rings still.

[Video Game Fan 2000]

ok on the whole this was exactly as good as Bayonetta 2. the visual design got better as it went along but the environments never were really anything other than rooms and platforms arbitrarily surrounded by clouds. the demon summoning was eventually fun but unlike Astral Chain there was never a reason to vary your attack styles other than to see the over the top finishers. some of the puzzles were very clunky and sometimes that combined with dropping framerates and need to press 4 buttons to do a simple move made me feel like i was playing on the N64. the summon attacks do get much more fluid and intuitive as you go along, but the downside is that they can easily obscure the entire screen and the funnest battles in the game have some of the momentum knocked out of them because of the insta-kills that can be done against your demons.

whenever the old Bayonetta enemies turned up or during the particularly fan-servicey part of the last chapter, it just reminded me of how good Bayonetta 1 was and how hard its been to recreate it. or how good Platinum are when they do something new. knocking the armour off giant stone angles to reveal the pulsing flesh beneath has something that driving a train into jellyfish can't have. it also brought home how much simply the "press button to summon monster" system is compared to wicked weaves, where putting a combo into a big attack felt like a pay off for timing things to perfection. here once you land a hit you know its going to chain into a big attack unless a bird steals your controller. the same goes for the terrible new lass compared to the swordplay in Revengeance.

the kaiju and flaboyant costume changes would have made for a far better game about post apocalyptic drag queens than they made for a game about a time travelling S&M witch. or had they made the egyptian themed part the whole game, the part with the giant animals and treasure rooms stood out as having more care taken with it than just having ever more caves or burning cities. everything in B3 is good to great, but very lessened by the fact it wasn't something new just an iteration of one of the best console games ever. solid B.

[Crenners]

I've not played this or seen any footage, I kind of feel past this kind of thing, but I really loved the gameplay of Bayo 1 - for the reasons you described. I found 2 OK but because it started in 6th gear, it plateaued quickly and felt a bit boring somehow. Maximum maximalism means zero dynamics, I suppose. Bayo 1 starts relatively small-scale and ends up macro as fuck. Also, somewhat more intriguing story and less bad characters. It sounds a bit gatekeepy (I actually don't care about that at all) but it had a vastly higher skill ceiling and barrier to entry, and that's what made the gameplay so satisfying time after time. 2 and 3 seem more about the spectacle than the mechanics.

I will get this if they bring out a Switch 2 that runs games at a solid 60.

[Video Game Fan 2000]

i rinsed bayonetta 1 because the game made it worth getting good enough to get pure platinums in fights, and it was worth replaying to know how to consistently win against different combinations of enemies without getting hit

i dont think i'll be doing that with 3 because like 2 seeing everything seems more of a matter of finding obscure secrets and doing timed jumps than the actual fighting. plus the sorts of enemies it throws at you dont suggest lots of fun different combinations to learn to avoid and fight against. it says a lot that the second or third hidden challenge i found was just running against wind, not fighting. in bayonetta those were training you to deal with different combinations of ranged/melee/giant attacks. in bayonetta 3 they're the floor is lava or score 5000 points to win.

this sounds way more critical than it is because bayonetta was such a great game. had Bayonetta 3 been called Godzilla v Drag Queens id judge it differently. another weird thing for a game that was in development so long is how much the cut scenes at the end seemed like filler. almost like unfinished demos. characters dancing, facing the camera without costume changes or special effects.

[Crenners]

Wish it was Godzilla vs Drag Queens. I'd have been day one.

[Pink Gregory]

Makes you wonder whether Platinum being known for somewhat high skill-ceiling action games is a bit of a misnomer.

Bayonetta, arguably; but then MGR Revengeance is significantly curbed in terms of your moves and it's mainly about parrying, Vanquish has rankings but it doesn't have that many tricks and it's more about movement.

Wonderful 101 maybe, but it has so much else than the combat going on that it's difficult to draw a comparison; same could be said about Nier Automata, which I'm loving but it's more about customisation than combat, really.

Haven't played Madworld or Astral Chain yet, despite owning both.

What I'm saying is, maybe Bayo 1 was an outlier; and what else really is there at the minute anyway, other than DMC5?  I think Sekiro and Sifu and other such high-execution games are distinct from the kind of score-chasing combo game that we're on about.

[madhair60]

"Gatekeeping" is a fake idea

[Pink Gregory]

I find the space between 'skill floor' and 'skill ceiling' where these score-and-rank games sit interesting.

You can muddle through a Bayonetta with all stone medals and see the ending, find all the weapons, not really miss anything and get through some of the fights with cheapish healing items without much more than a ticking off on the results screen.  That's a low floor but a high ceiling.

Something like a Ninja Gaiden, however, and it's entirely possible to hit a wall (usually around Alma) with no real recourse for help.  That's a high floor and the ceiling is finishing the game.

[Crenners]

"Gatekeeping" is a fake idea

Go on, mate. Always interested in your perspective. I'm pro-accessibility and, without being a cunt, I've raised some money for disabled gamers because I have a couple of acquaintances whose lives were massively enhanced by Everyone Can but I'm also pro hard games. I find them more satisfying. I don't believe that everything is accessible, same as I am massively limited by ability and athleticism from professional sport, but I do believe in 'sport for all'.

[madhair60]

Edit: this would definitely start a barney, leaving it

[Pink Gregory]

Accessibility to me means mainly a range of control options, often an ability to condense complex controls into much more simple methods, like - incidentally - Bayonetta 2 and the gamepad control mode.

On top of that it's things like being able to pause, save, suspend; generally options with which you can leave the game at a moment's notice without much consequence. 

[Crenners]

Edit: this would definitely start a barney, leaving it

No worries, certainly wouldn't be a barney with me but I get it's a sensitive one.

[madhair60]

long and short of it is that "gatekeeping" is a loaded term used to inexplicably take a high road on the issue of Not Being Able To Beat A Boss In A Game, and it sort of weaponises other people's disability and other actual issues in a way I find pretty distasteful

basically I think there's a severe lack of people just saying "no, that's bollocks, you're talking total shit" in the gaming sphere

[bgmnts]

https://www.makeuseof.com/what-is-gatekeeping-gaming/#:~:text=The%20word%20gatekeeping%20refers%20to,in%20a%20uniquely%20destructive%20way.

In this aspect, gatekeeping does seem a real, shitty thing, especially when it comes to women in the hobby.

But yeah, in terms of difficulty or anything eh who cares like and not worth the scuffle.