Cook'd and Bomb'd

Forums => General Bullshit => Topic started by: MoonDust on November 17, 2018, 10:52:14 PM

Title: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: MoonDust on November 17, 2018, 10:52:14 PM
Surprised there's not been a thread on this yet, although apologies if I missed it.

Basically a group spawned in the UK taking to direct action to affect change in policy to mitigate climate change.

Website here:

https://rebellion.earth/

Today they blocked all major bridges in London to draw attention to the threat climate change poses to earth and our species.

They genuinely believe we're headed for extinction unless we do something about climate change.

Clearly they think things like the Paris Accord are not enough. And frankly, I agree.

Climate scientists with the UN have warned us we have 12 years to stop climate change seriously fucking things up beyond repair. They say such a thing can only be avoided if we drastically rethink things.

Personally I think such change requires full scale revolution and that global capitalism, in particular with the fossil fuel industry, is the cause of this mess. But on the other hand it's not guaranteed capitalism will be smashed and consigned to history in the next 12 years so I bloody hope I'm wrong and somehow this can be solved whilst capitalism is still around.

For one thing I think if we want to seriously get our heads together and figure out 1) how to stop climate change and 2) come up with viable green alternatives for energy (such as maybe cracking fusion technology) then governments need to fund science with a war-like mentality. I.e. in times of war, science funding was vastly restricted to things that helped win the war. With ww2 such funding was concentrated mostly on the atomic bomb and building the computer.

Well, I think we need the same mentality now to tackle climate disaster and save ourselves. I know it goes against the ethos of scientific orthodoxy but honestly, I believe we don't have the time or luxury to be bothering with things like the hadron collider or sending probes to mars. We have bigger fish to fry.

There needs to be some sort of revolution at least in the way we think about science and what its place is in society.

Perhaps Extinction Rebellion is a nucleus for a new movement to change this. I dunno. All I know is we need climate action N O W. Otherwise we're all fucked beyond comprehension. Perhaps I dare say that Brexit or Trump are not important at all when you're literally talking about the extinction of the human race, or at least the deaths of untold numbers if the global ecology collapses.

We're already in the midst of the 6th mass extinction event, and we could go down with the rest of the other species.




Sorry to bum you out on a Saturday night. I'll make a fart joke maybe later on in the thread. Something to do with greenhouse gases and methane.

Thoughts?

Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Mr_Simnock on November 17, 2018, 10:57:49 PM
Quote
They genuinely believe we're headed for extinction unless we do something about climate change.

I don't think we are headed for extinction but unless certain farming practices are curtailed and the earth does indeed continue to get hotter I do fully expect a famine so large and sever it will make anything before it look like totally insignificant and possibly wipe out at least a couple billion people.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: MoonDust on November 17, 2018, 11:01:04 PM
I don't think we are headed for extinction but unless certain farming practices are curtailed and the earth does indeed continue to get hotter I do fully expect a famine so large and sever it will make anything before it look like totally insignificant and possibly wipe out at least a couple billion people.

Exactly. And of course this won't be just consigned to a vacuum. The famines and other physical effects from global warming will cause unimaginable numbers of refugees for the survivors. You're talking economies collapsing, governments collapsing, wars breaking out. The secondary deaths from this alone will run into the millions. It'll be a domino effect of horror and misery.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Mr_Simnock on November 17, 2018, 11:05:17 PM
This has been on my mind for a bit especially after having read about the collapse of some insects around the world which could have a massive impact if that continues.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: MoonDust on November 17, 2018, 11:06:31 PM
As to the extinction of the human race. I don't know. It's hard to gauge.

I think what's overlooked is the little critters. Bees for example.

Without sounding callous a lot of the endangered species in the large mammal group we can live without. Polar bears, pandas, orangutan. Fucking tragic if they go, but it won't massively disrupt the ecosystem.

Insects though. If bees for example go extinct you can say goodbye to most crops we take for granted. And again, here's our famine. Not to mention the ripple effect bee's extinction will have on other animals in the food chain that rely on the plants they pollinate. Who knows, maybe that could cause humans to become extinct too. We may be tech savvy but at the end of the day we still rely on nature to give us food. We are still part of the food chain. But I'm no ecologist.

It's fucking terrifying to think of. And no one seems to be seriously doing anything. If all this is inevitable you would think oil will become banned overnight.

Edit; you mentioned insects as I was typing.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on November 17, 2018, 11:12:25 PM
Planet is fucked within my generation (I'm 32), basically anyone who has had a kid is a short-sighted moron or selfish.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: MoonDust on November 17, 2018, 11:18:11 PM
Planet is fucked within my generation (I'm 32), basically anyone who has had a kid is a short-sighted moron or selfish.

I don't agree with the whole anti-natalism. We shouldn't be willing ourselves into extinction by stopping reproducing. Plus that'll never happen anyway. You also forget that not everyone has a child through choice.

We need new generations to either a) save the planet in the future or b) continue preserving it if we reverse things and save it now and learn from the errors of the fossil fuel age.

But on the other hand under current global capitalism and the rate of consumption that entails, and the misery that entails, I do think "why the fuck would you bring a child into this world?" from time to time.

But then I try and remain hopeful. We shouldn't give ourselves into despair. Things look fucking bleak but that should be a reason to fight for change, not give up.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on November 17, 2018, 11:25:34 PM
This isn't some grand 'anti-natalism' concept. I'm not sure the planet is sustainable within my lifetime; how can you in good faith bring someone else into this world with that looming over you?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: manticore on November 18, 2018, 01:12:39 AM
I just gave Extinction Rebellion a tiny bit of money but I'm uncertain by looking at different things they write about how much emphasis they put on the species depletion Moondust talks about above. I believe climate change is likely to kill a large proportion of the human population, but species depletion will wipe out every large mammal on the planet if it's not stopped.

Anyway, the BBC...

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/9796/2t4gPF.png)

If you want to support them:

https://fundrazr.com/ExtinctionRebellion?ref=ab_577HUd_ab_4wOeV8KSR7M4wOeV8KSR7M (https://fundrazr.com/ExtinctionRebellion?ref=ab_577HUd_ab_4wOeV8KSR7M4wOeV8KSR7M)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Small Man Big Horse on November 18, 2018, 01:30:18 AM
This isn't some grand 'anti-natalism' concept. I'm not sure the planet is sustainable within my lifetime; how can you in good faith bring someone else into this world with that looming over you?

I'm with you on this. I've asked friends with children that very question and the general reply was "Ah, I try not to think about that". Which is all kinds of bleak. And whilst I don't think humanity will become extinct, the next 100 years at the very least are going to be horrendously shitty ones.

Still, I'm 44 so by the time everything becomes shockingly depressing I'll be old enough to kill myself and people will say "Well, he lived a vaguely okay life to a decent enough age". Hooray!
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Bhazor on November 18, 2018, 01:47:39 AM

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/9796/2t4gPF.png)

If you want to support them:

https://fundrazr.com/ExtinctionRebellion?ref=ab_577HUd_ab_4wOeV8KSR7M4wOeV8KSR7M (https://fundrazr.com/ExtinctionRebellion?ref=ab_577HUd_ab_4wOeV8KSR7M4wOeV8KSR7M)

Well one big difference is that the fuel protest involves at least 125,000 people across France (BBC uses high end estimate of 280,000) causing a nationwide gridlock. While Extinction involves less than 6000 who blocked a bridge for about two hours.

The other big difference and the reason that BBC gave it the headline was that a protestor was killed.

But y'know. BBC. Neoliberal. Warmonger. Corporate. Slippery slope. Censorship. Can't say that these days. 
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Kryton on November 18, 2018, 01:56:08 AM
I read somewhere that we have about three-four generations left before everything really does become terrible. And that was about ten years ago.

Honestly fucking banking on off-planet colony survival and the life-saving ventures of the space venturing sector. Even if they are tech-bro's or whatever. Give the planet some time to rest. Get at least one third of the planet via whatever means, off the planet. But that's probably some 'male' elitist fantasy. A man of my ilk would be elected a Terra-remainer by default I reckon. Social status and all. Even though I voted for Mars.

The eco-system is fucked as a result of plastic and deforestation.

Biggytitbo once commented that the 90's was shit, but we had the very best climate change agreements and such. Now that seems to me a thirty six year old man like a weird dream shat on by Trump.

Shoulders(?) cynically called me naive when I agreed that some corporations/businesses are highlighting such things as palm oil and deforestation, but since then I've seen a ton of increased reaction to said adverts on social media, which kinda means it's hit a nerve of some sort. Not everyone is as super-smart as Shoulders.

It's good to see passive action and reactions to this issue as a result of said marketing. Naivete aside. We live in the last generation or two of the great barrier reef. But we live in the most wonderful age of global communication.

There's still a chance I reckon, but this is the last generation or two to do it.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Twit 2 on November 18, 2018, 02:12:46 AM
My gut instinct is that things are going to get very bad very soon. It could genuinely get a bit post-apocalyptic. There’s been little difference between the dystopian worlds in fiction and our own for a while, so no reason why we can’t have a bit of post-apocalyptic shenanigans IRL. I’m quite haunted by the methodical break down of society that Stephen King depicts in The Stand and the horror of the marauding gangs in The Road. Those two are a bit too uncomfortably close to my own estimation of how human nature would operate in such a landscape.

Also, rather disconcertingly, we have too many examples of real hellholes where humanity has utterly debased itself in the ruins - concentration camps, famines, war zones - to remind us what we’ll be looking forward to. We’re used to seeing a cunt of a tsunami wipe out unfortunates in the tropics, or some kiddy hospital shelled into oblivion. That’s a shame, we think. But we’ll think again when it’s happening ever other day, and in Bracknell.

When the bikers come to rape me with barbed wire, tell them I’m out.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: BlodwynPig on November 18, 2018, 02:13:43 AM
I don't think we are headed for extinction but unless certain farming practices are curtailed and the earth does indeed continue to get hotter I do fully expect a famine so large and sever it will make anything before it look like totally insignificant and possibly wipe out at least a couple billion people.

Famine is not the big issue, it is water and sanitation. Over 2 billion people worldwide without access to basic sanitation. We still produce far more food than is consumed (1/3 of food produced is wasted). About twice as much in developed countries than in developing countries, but still significant amounts in the poorer regions of the world. Climate change impacts all of this, of course, so..."joined up thinking and action" needed.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: JesusAndYourBush on November 18, 2018, 02:44:46 AM
I don't agree with the whole anti-natalism. We shouldn't be willing ourselves into extinction by stopping reproducing.

The reason global warming exists is because there's too many people on the Earth. (The gases and heat they produce and the infrastructure needed to support them*).

Plus we need to stop making plastic and discover a way to destroy the plastic that's in the oceans.



*Whenever anyone brings up the topic of there being too many people, some twit always pipes up saying there's plenty of room on the planet, pointing to the vast areas of land where there's not much happening, big areas of America etc where you can drive for miles in a straight line through a whole lot of nothing.  It's not about having room, it's about the infrastructure.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: chveik on November 18, 2018, 02:53:24 AM
It's impossible to know exactly what's going to happen next, but in any case it's time to abandon all hope. Even if we can change a few things, the sheer amount of crises is too enormous to prevent mankind's end in a few decades/a century (climate change, overpopulation, mass extinctions, water wars, refugees crisis etc.) I'm afraid that baby boomers have a lot to answer for.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: manticore on November 18, 2018, 03:50:24 AM
Well one big difference is that the fuel protest involves at least 125,000 people across France (BBC uses high end estimate of 280,000) causing a nationwide gridlock. While Extinction involves less than 6000 who blocked a bridge for about two hours.

The other big difference and the reason that BBC gave it the headline was that a protestor was killed.

But y'know. BBC. Neoliberal. Warmonger. Corporate. Slippery slope. Censorship. Can't say that these days.

Bhazor, I've noticed over the years that you often almost systematically don't read (or maybe skim read) threads or posts before answering them, but just use them as a springboard to spiel with half-baked rhetoric about whatever pet topic is in your head.

As Monbiot said in those quoted tweets, the protesters blocked off five bridges, at least one of them for four hours. The protest wasn't a complaint about rising fuel prices in another country, it was here, and it was about a movement trying to do something to prevent a world catastrophe. The BBC website has its story under local London news.

The BBC has a terrible record on covering the problem of climate change and ecological disaster, which is easily the most important subject there is. It admits the problem here, and seems to have only just begun to address it:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/sep/07/bbc-we-get-climate-change-coverage-wrong-too-often (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/sep/07/bbc-we-get-climate-change-coverage-wrong-too-often)

What the hell has this got to do with "Neoliberal. Warmonger. Corporate. Slippery slope. Censorship. Can't say that these days."?

Maybe re-read what Monbiot said and think about it.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Pearly-Dewdrops Drops on November 18, 2018, 04:40:27 AM
Exactly. And of course this won't be just consigned to a vacuum. The famines and other physical effects from global warming will cause unimaginable numbers of refugees for the survivors. You're talking economies collapsing, governments collapsing, wars breaking out. The secondary deaths from this alone will run into the millions. It'll be a domino effect of horror and misery.

There's a strong argument that this is already happening, and that climate-related changes in the Middle East are a direct or indirect cause of the "refugee crisis" and (arguably) the descent of Western democracies into fascist xenophobia over the last few years.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: MoonDust on November 18, 2018, 09:40:03 AM
I understand what Kryton says about moving a chunk of the population to another planet. But I can't help but feel that's a cop-out and abandoning responsibility here.

Like I said, science funding should be diverted. The amount of money pumped into various space programmes could be pumped into green energy research, even fusion technology. As a side note, if we crack fusion technology that could literally stop global warming overnight. It's so powerful as an energy source you could (hypothetically) transition the entire planet away from fossil fuels overnight.

Similarly CERN. I honestly think that if we fail to stop climate disaster, future generations will look back at us in the mid 2000s and think we were fucking insane, blind, and selfish to be spending billions from multiple country's budgets on a giant magnet to see if a particle may or may not exist, when the world was already warning up. And they'd be right.

People say war is a driver for technology. But it's not true per se. The reason why war results in better tech is because in a war economy, effectively free market economics stops happening. Instead, governments in effect nationalise industry and plan the economy for the war effort. The technological advances from a planned economy can be remarkable. We should be doing that in peace time.

The amount of genuinely pointless research that money is being thrown at by government budgets is astonishing. Meaningless stuff like "we've made a bendy electronic device you can wear and monitors your heart rate". Yeah, so what? There's a planet dying outside your window.

As I said, against the grain of scientific spirit but I think research for research sake has to be put to be bed for now whilst we solve the climate problem. Once we (hopefully) save the planet from destruction we can do what we want. But until then...




But to play my own devil's advocate, I guess we need a plan B if we fail to save the planet, so maybe Mars research is still useful. But still, there are so many science projects out there which in the middle of a global emergency are simply not important and funding needs to be stopped and diverted elsewhere.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Gregory Torso on November 18, 2018, 10:20:16 AM
It's extremely depressing. I mean, much as I love being called a moronic piece of shit for starting a family with a woman I love, for opening up the bee hive and letting my crotch insects swarm out into the world, and I am a piece of unwashed taint, I don't deny this, I have to agree that this is all looking very grim.

Chinese Uighur death camps going on and everyone is just talking about Theresa May's jewellery, rising superpower doesn't give a fuck about endangered animals, coral reefs, cutting the faces off deer to make cock spurt medicine, shooting piss cannons into the atmosphere just to piss off trump trump trump HARD BANANAS IN BREXIT. Fucking sick off it. And yes I am drunk at 10 o'clock on a Sunday what are you going to call my mum, hoist me up on a cross under the horse-bitten worm-addled moon and beat me to death with a Chuck Palahniuk hardback.

I love my wife and son, they are literally the only reason I go on living in any capacity and before I had sex and made babby walk and talk mauybe we should have thought about it BUT WE DIDNT, we didn't and now everything is horrible and turning to sludge and i want to die every day.

But I have to stay optomistic too. IN THE CUTRRENT CLIMATE. endless torrents of shit. Shut it all off and stay inside wanking into the bin. sloppy erection meaningless streak. I just


want my son to have something later in the world, and not just have it be like this negative prayer, this WH SMiths book token world, when is Strictly on have I missed Strcitly, christ I;m sorry for this, for that, for Gary barlow's gunt that spouts out quotes from Chariman Mao's little red book of rape tactics.


I want to do more. I want things to change but look at the US and China, two big fleshy children cows fighting each other spraying diarrheoa all over the rest of us.


Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: MoonDust on November 18, 2018, 10:25:06 AM
If it makes you feel any better we were fucked before Trump in terms of climate.

We've been sleepwalking into being fucked for decades because oil and the fossil fuel industry is still king. I mean the UK and the US were fracking under Obama. A change of President isn't going to tip us over the edge. The collective complacency of governments the world over, will.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Gregory Torso on November 18, 2018, 10:27:57 AM
I know. I just want to crawl under a big soil duvet and pull the grass over me.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: MoonDust on November 18, 2018, 10:30:48 AM
Chin up Torso. We need people having kids. Don't want to make ourselves extinct. If we did then no one would be caring about the whole climate change. There is hope. It's just urgent, and urgency can sound like despair. But so long as there's hope for a better world and anger at the way things are, change will come.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Twit 2 on November 18, 2018, 10:39:18 AM
Extinction is too extreme a word I think (extirpation might be better). It’d have to be a big disaster indeed to wipe out literally every person on the planet. More likely is 99.9% dying and a few people left in Barnsley, scrabbling around for whelks.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: MoonDust on November 18, 2018, 10:44:52 AM
Extinction is too extreme a word I think (extirpation might be better). It’d have to be a big disaster indeed to wipe out literally every person on the planet. More likely is 99.9% dying and a few people left in Barnsley, scrabbling around for whelks.

Extirpation Rebellion has less of a ring to it.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: bgmnts on November 18, 2018, 11:09:22 AM
Having kids increases your impact on the environment ten fold (guessing). So I don't know how anyone who is an environmentalist can have a child.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: MoonDust on November 18, 2018, 11:17:23 AM
Having kids increases your impact on the environment ten fold (guessing). So I don't know how anyone who is an environmentalist can have a child.

Personally I don't intend on having kids. And I'm aware the impact it has. I'm just saying that on the other hand we shouldn't all stop having kids. How would that even work or be policed? One child policy like China? What about accidental pregnancies? Unwanted pregnancies? Babies will keep being born. Rather than focussing on trying to social engineer 7 billion people to meticulously plan and consider reproducing, we should focus on actual achievable things, like changing the economy and politics to get rid of fossil fuels and destroying the environment.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: SpiderChrist on November 18, 2018, 12:43:17 PM
Got buttonholed by an aquaintance in the pub last night. He'd been, and went on at me at length about why hadn't I been there and what was I doing to save the planet and so on and so forth until I finall snapped his neck like a twig and recycled him into the River Cam, the self-righteous cunt.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favour of this shit, and have taken part in similar activities in the past. What I don't need is a coked up anarchist lecturing me on my lifestyle.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: MoonDust on November 18, 2018, 12:45:10 PM
That's unfortunate. I understand people are passionate about this can get riled. But anger needs to be directed to the politicians, not the average Jane/Joe on the street.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: SpiderChrist on November 18, 2018, 12:49:18 PM
Quite. Factor in the fact that most of the tale of the day involved him trying to find somewhere for his band to play, and you can see that it wasn't exactly all about the planet.

Anyway. Going on the next one, I reckon. Should be a laugh.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Fambo Number Mive on November 18, 2018, 08:37:10 PM
In similar news, Heathrow third runway not enough: https://www.ft.com/content/66d56faa-e755-11e8-8a85-04b8afea6ea3?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: flotemysost on November 18, 2018, 08:51:21 PM
coked up

Then he's a bit of a hypocrite surely?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle on November 18, 2018, 10:40:10 PM
I think he meant cocked up. As in he had his cock up somthing in the pub.  Anarchism.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gout_pony on November 19, 2018, 12:11:43 AM
I was there (Waterloo bridge specifically) adding to the body count for a couple of hours. It was fascinating being at a protest which included both rationalist environmental scientists quoting stats and wicca hippies talking about cosmic energy!
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: manticore on November 19, 2018, 02:22:59 AM
Good man, gout_pony.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: MoonDust on November 19, 2018, 05:33:54 AM
Then he's a bit of a hypocrite surely?

I thought that too.

Good to hear, gout_pony.

I must admit when I first heard of the event a couple of weeks ago I considered flying up to London but that would have felt hypocritical. Using an Airbus to attend an environmental protest. Hmmm.

I think the group is here in Germany and I think there's something planned in Berlin soon.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gout_pony on November 19, 2018, 10:02:51 AM
A wonderful, heartbreaking article:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/11/26/how-extreme-weather-is-shrinking-the-planet?fbclid=IwAR3vff-FiaS77KsaaUe7mWFLDzFMYrxBEawkDJQOlvECtrPcIl3my_coQf0 (https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/11/26/how-extreme-weather-is-shrinking-the-planet?fbclid=IwAR3vff-FiaS77KsaaUe7mWFLDzFMYrxBEawkDJQOlvECtrPcIl3my_coQf0)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Cuellar on November 19, 2018, 10:19:26 AM
Planet is fucked within my generation (I'm 32), basically anyone who has had a kid is a short-sighted moron or selfish.

But what if your kid grows up and finds/pioneers a clean source of energy and saves the planet? Looked at like that, you can't risk NOT having children.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: New Jack on November 19, 2018, 10:19:58 AM
Oh man, I wouldn't want that. Living vicariously is saaa-aaad!
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Buelligan on November 19, 2018, 10:49:04 AM
I must admit when I first heard of the event a couple of weeks ago I considered flying up to London but that would have felt hypocritical. Using an Airbus to attend an environmental protest. Hmmm.

Or using an Airbus at all.  And that's the problem.  All the humans just think that their little bit is sustainable (even if they don't think about it or care, this is almost universally true because, if they believed their little bit was unsustainable - and meant death to the planet - the overwhelming majority would desist immediately.  Because they love themselves and their own lives.

I was walking home, Friday night I think it was, around midnight, up a deserted valley and the moon was there and the stars, empty and beautiful and I thought to myself, the sooner every single member of my moronic species is cleaned of the surface of this suffering beautiful globe, the better.  I sent up a little prayer.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Mr_Simnock on November 19, 2018, 01:59:44 PM
Quote
the sooner every single member of my moronic species is cleaned of the surface of this suffering beautiful globe, the better.  I sent up a little prayer.

You could always help this along and just top yourself you now, every little helps. The rest of left can then get on with solving the issues of sustainablity and find away to exist within the means of the planet (which we most certainly can)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Buelligan on November 19, 2018, 02:04:31 PM
I have considered it but I'd never want you to think that your ill-considered desire to offend me or anyone else whose scribbled shadow flits briefly across the opaque backcloth that is your mind, had had more serious consequences than you'd been able to imagine.

Nevertheless, your comments and the way you express them, confirm to me my original sentiment.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: David Pielingtonburygrot on November 19, 2018, 02:58:56 PM
and I thought to myself, the sooner every single member of my moronic species is cleaned of the surface of this suffering beautiful globe, the better.  I sent up a little prayer.

Prayers aren't going to do anything. The only surefire solution is to take this "cleaning" into your own hands and start randomly murdering people.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: New Jack on November 19, 2018, 03:01:20 PM
Hey, I pray every night

I also hit the little button when my computer crashes that says Tell Microsoft About This Problem
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: SpiderChrist on November 19, 2018, 03:22:26 PM
You could always help this along and just top yourself you now, every little helps. The rest of left can then get on with solving the issues of sustainablity and find away to exist within the means of the planet (which we most certainly can)

Oooft. Not nice.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: SpiderChrist on November 19, 2018, 03:24:34 PM
I thought that too

Yeah well, y'know. Hypocrites everywhere, to be honest. We all doing what we can, although a lot of folk just do what they want.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Shit Good Nose on November 19, 2018, 03:26:17 PM
I keep saying it again and again - as long as the main two elephants in the room (population and fresh clean water) continue to be completely ignored, no amount of climate change avoidance will make a blind bit of difference.

Although we only have about 12 years left to reverse it, the actual major events related to climate change won't be felt by large parts of the world for another 80 or so years.

There's about 150 years of fossil fuels left, based on current usage.

I think there's about 60 harvests left based on current consumption and farming practices.

We've got about 25 years tops before the earth's population causes irreversible catastrophic problems for most of the planet, and clean water will cease to be an easy commodity to come by within about 20 years.  We WILL be fighting wars over drinking water within most of our lifetimes as we're fighting wars over oil now.

But no one (I'm referring to world leaders and scientists) talks about population and no one talks about water - Catholics and chavs pump out 10 kids a year and nothing will change that, and there are increasing thirsty mouths using up decreasing water.


Specifically about climate change, you also have the major issue of developing countries like India and China, and within parts of Africa, who have an enormous and increasing reliance on coal as they're at a point where the West was years ago, and anything we do in the West counts for nothing unless they all jump on board as well.  But they're unlikely to as they're not first world countries and there are still axes to grind between world leaders.

Sorry to say it, but we are absolutely fucked and there's fuck all we can do about it.  Buelligan is right - the only way to save the planet is to wipe out every human being on it in one fell swoop.


Also, Simnock - uncalled for I think...
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gilbertharding on November 19, 2018, 03:39:14 PM
Yeah - unfortunately all the 'solutions' proposed by people in the West are 'hey! Maybe we can CONSUME our way out of this mess!' and all the while outsourcing most of our pollution to China and places where our stuff is made. 'Go to Mars!' Fuck OFF.

It's the population explosion which is causing all this. Luckily the imminent wars, famines and diseases will fix this.

Who knows, perhaps there'll be the massive global thermonuclear war we've been promised for the last 70 years. It won't kill everything - whatever's left will have a clean slate from which to evolve.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: New Jack on November 19, 2018, 03:43:45 PM
We fucked our way into this, and by God, we will fuck our way out
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Shit Good Nose on November 19, 2018, 03:45:54 PM
whatever's left will have a clean slate from which to evolve.

As well as the oozing boils.

I'm thinking the survivors will be walking around like Emil AFTER his meeting with the toxic waste.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Shit Good Nose on November 19, 2018, 03:46:30 PM
We fucked our way into this, and by God, we will fuck our way out

You FOOL!  We already said shagging is just making it worse!

GAW!!!!!
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Captain Z on November 19, 2018, 03:46:51 PM
As well as the oozing boils.

I'm thinking the survivors will be walking around like Emil AFTER his meeting with the toxic waste.

Yeah I was going to say, a nice, clean, highly radioactive slate.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gilbertharding on November 19, 2018, 03:57:55 PM
As well as the oozing boils.

I'm thinking the survivors will be walking around like Emil AFTER his meeting with the toxic waste.

I wasn't thinking 'who', more 'what'. It's going to be a whole new ball game.

The planet's been here 4500 million years or something, and humans have only been here for 2 million years at most.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: manticore on November 19, 2018, 04:12:55 PM
I do feel strongly that all the humans should be purged from the planet like the vermin and parasites they patently are. They are life unworthy of life and the process should be begun as soon as possible.

I include in this every suffering child, every peasant doing their back breaking work in the fields, every carer looking after their elderly parent day and night for no reward - all of them, their end can't be hastened soon enough.

Hey no, leave me alone, I say this out of love, so please don't include me in all this. It's not me - it's the others.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: New Jack on November 19, 2018, 04:17:23 PM
I'm pretty sound, but if everyone is going I'm happy to come with
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Buelligan on November 19, 2018, 04:24:15 PM
I do feel strongly that all the humans should be purged from the planet like the vermin and parasites they patently are. They are life unworthy of life and the process should be begun as soon as possible.

I include in this every suffering child, every peasant doing their back breaking work in the fields, every carer looking after their elderly parent day and night for no reward - all of them, their end can't be hastened soon enough.

Hey no, leave me alone, I say this out of love, so please don't include me in all this. It's not me - it's the others.

No one (almost no one) wants to wipe out the human race but that doesn't stop most reasonable people from acknowledging the obvious. 

It is obviously true that human existence is destroying its own home planet.  And that does mean all of us.  Including us. 

I suppose those fellows that hang about in the most remote parts of distant rainforests, the ones we don't even know exist, they can get a free pass.  The rest of us though are for the oubliette, unless you think it would be preferable to set up some kind of tribunal to select the 0.0001%, still quite a number, who deserve to continue (as long as they obey the rules, don't reproduce and don't get old or sick).

Perhaps we should be asking ourselves why we deserve to continue existing, fucking everything up, at the expense of those lads we don't even know about in the rainforest somewhere.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: jobotic on November 19, 2018, 04:24:58 PM
When I look at my kids I do just see evil little fuckers who are here to destroy the world and I feel deep deep shame for bringing into this world and i'd like to apologise to you all. The sooner they die the better eh?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Mr_Simnock on November 19, 2018, 04:30:15 PM
Quote
Also, Simnock - uncalled for I think...

That was a joke, someone wishing the human race gone helping their own cause, sorry I caused offence.

Quote
I have considered it but I'd never want you to think that your ill-considered desire to offend me or anyone else whose scribbled shadow flits briefly across the opaque backcloth that is your mind, had had more serious consequences than you'd been able to imagine.

could be wose, my mind could be so dark it prays for the end of the human race. #selfawareness
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Shit Good Nose on November 19, 2018, 04:43:08 PM
Acknowledging the human race is responsible for the problems and wiping it out totally is the only true resolution is not the same as suggesting to an individual that they kill themselves.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gilbertharding on November 19, 2018, 04:43:40 PM
In case it's my 'bring on the nuclear winter' shtick that's provoking some people - It's not what would happen in an ideal world. Neither is it what I'd want to happen.

Perhaps in an ideal world we'd never have come down from the trees...

In an ideal world humanity will survive by taking sensible measures to reduce consumption of the earth's resources, by about 50% - and do so in a way that the inevitable pain is borne by the people who are most culpable for the mess, as opposed to the usual poor buggers who are always fucked.

Take a look around though: it's not an ideal world, is it?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: MoonDust on November 19, 2018, 04:55:30 PM
I too think we should be putting our biggest brains together to solve our problems rather than hoping and praying for our extinction. Having said that saying someone should kill themselves is not on, but at least you acknowledged that yourself Mr_Simnock.

I can understand where the feeling comes from that we'd be better off not here though, as a species. Just out of curiosity Buelligan, when you look up at the clear moon and stars does it not make you think as well that there's natural beauty worth preserving?

That's what tips the balance for me. If we can fuck the planet through complacency and thinking in the short term, I'm sure we're capable of saving the planet through planning and thinking ahead.

Whether we like it or not people, we're in the anthropocene - human activity shaping the planet. We can either make sure its lasting legacy is a good thing or a bad thing.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Mr_Simnock on November 19, 2018, 05:00:50 PM
Quote
Having said that saying someone should kill themselves is not on, but at least you acknowledged that yourself Mr_Simnock


please tell me no one reading my post was thick enough to actually think I wanted that, jesus wept give me some credit
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Chollis on November 19, 2018, 05:02:55 PM

please tell me no one reading my post was thick enough to actually think I wanted that, jesus wept give me some credit

i did, I'm posting this from beyond the grave
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: MoonDust on November 19, 2018, 05:05:59 PM

please tell me no one reading my post was thick enough to actually think I wanted that, jesus wept give me some credit

Of course not. I knew it was meant tongue-in-cheek. But still. Meant no acrimony by it. Just think it's not something to joke about.

*wags finger
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: manticore on November 19, 2018, 05:15:28 PM
When I look at my kids I do just see evil little fuckers who are here to destroy the world and I feel deep deep shame for bringing into this world and i'd like to apologise to you all. The sooner they die the better eh?

I don't normally do posts like this, but I'm entirely with you in your feeling jobotic. I think some of the people who spout the stuff in these threads are blinding themselves to what they're saying. Do they have no one they love?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Shit Good Nose on November 19, 2018, 05:43:09 PM

please tell me no one reading my post was thick enough to actually think I wanted that, jesus wept give me some credit

I'm glad to hear you were joking, although:
1 - I've read it back several times and it's not obviously a joke
2 - I don't think (the royal) you should suggest to an individual to top themselves no matter how much you're joking and how obvious it may or may not be.  For a start you don't know what their mental state is. 

Anyways, that.  And we're still megafucked regardless.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: chveik on November 19, 2018, 06:14:06 PM
Even if we have a strong desire to change things, I'm sure a lot of us know that we won't actually ever do anything, because we don't have the courage or the strenght or the adequate mental health, or that deep down we don't care that much about our fellow humans because they let us down so many times.
And when you realise that, if you don't want to be an hypocrite, either killing yourself becomes a serious option or you stop judging and saying hypocrite things like "humanity should be wiped out" because people who say such a thing don't understand subjectively what the agony and death of billions of people mean.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Noonling on November 19, 2018, 06:17:02 PM
2 - I don't think (the royal) you should suggest to an individual to top themselves no matter how much you're joking and how obvious it may or may not be.  For a start you don't know what their mental state is. 
Avoid awkward English pronouns by going full Queen:

One doesn't think one should suggest to one to top oneself no matter how much one is joking and how obvious it may or may not be.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Shit Good Nose on November 19, 2018, 06:19:59 PM
Avoid awkward English pronouns by going full Queen:

One doesn't think one should suggest to one to top oneself no matter how much one is joking and how obvious it may or may not be.

Fried chicken.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: bgmnts on November 19, 2018, 06:34:12 PM
I too think we should be putting our biggest brains together to solve our problems rather than hoping and praying for our extinction.

I'm busy playing video games sorry.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Buelligan on November 19, 2018, 06:37:22 PM
I can understand where the feeling comes from that we'd be better off not here though, as a species. Just out of curiosity Buelligan, when you look up at the clear moon and stars does it not make you think as well that there's natural beauty worth preserving?

It's the natural beauty I want to preserve.  I've been walking that same route, most nights and days, for three years now. 

In that short time, it's changed.  What was pristine (by pristine, I mean, there were signs of humanity, vinyards and tracks here and there but it was pretty much like that for the last five hundred years or more) is now littered with fragments of plastic and glass, to a noticeable degree.  That's what prompted the thought. 

That, and the fact that we've just suffered two of the hottest summers ever in succession.  Hotter than any of the old folk round here remember, ever, where many, many, trees have died.  This year, we've had a plague of imported (asiatic) moths, so numerous they gave the impression of snow storms every night for weeks.  Their larvae have stripped every leaf (I really mean every leaf) from the box bushes that form a very significant percentage of the brush on the garrigue (which, in turn, holds the soil on the mountains in times of heavy rain and supports a huge number of indigenous creatures, who now have no food or place to shelter).  This, in combination with the exceptional high temperatures and lack of rain means that a lot of this vegetation has died. We've also had a plague of plane tree virus (imported from the antipodes) that has killed most of the napoleonic avenues of plane trees and a terrible flood (which destroyed houses, uprooted ancient trees, washed away bridges and walls, dug up roads - it moved a thirty ton stone about 60m in a nearby (flat) vinyard, that's the kind of force I'm talking about.  It killed quite a few people).  You may have seen it on the news. 

IMO, these things are all the result of human activity.  If they occur once in a decade, they're a problem, if they happen all the time, it's simply not sustainable.  And it is happening all the time now.

Yesterday, I watched the huge annual skeins of wild geese, moving across the skies.  I've watched them migrating every year for years.  They always pass over, north to south.  But, guess what?  This year they were flying east to west.  We hardly see the swallows any more.  Something is very fucked up but most people, I think, are so insulated from nature that they're not noticing.

These are the kinds of experiences I've had recently that made me have that thought.

On the joking about suicide, I'm afraid, given recent experience (more experience), the laughter has gone right out of it.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: MoonDust on November 19, 2018, 06:47:08 PM
Fucking bleak. I think you're right that too many of us are too insulated from nature to notice it so drastically. I'm guilty of that too.

I do think though it's increasingly becoming more and more unavoidable to notice. Especially with the freak weather you mentioned.

That said, during the heatwave summer just gone, one of my friends back in the UK couldn't get enough of it. Constantly saying "this is well good. Finally a proper summer." I couldn't convince him that it wasn't "we'll good". It was actually a really fucking worrying event. Unprecedented as it was global. Not just local. I realised I sounded like a kill joy while everyone was enjoying the hot weather. But I think it's something one is justified to be a kill joy about: the recent heat waves should be a cause for concern for everyone. It's not normal. It's frightening.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: AllisonSays on November 19, 2018, 06:57:49 PM
I find people in Europe or north America ruminating on the desirability of species-death for humans deeply troubling, particularly because it isn't people in Europe or north America who are deemed expendable populations when these kind of conversations roll around (as they did in the eugenics movements of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, for instance). I mean, you're talking about genocide, right? And it might be genocide draped in hazy, hippyish primitivism but the way it will happen, if it does happen, will be a product of the social and material conditions of the world now - which means it'll be the global south (which has already been fucked by the early industrialisation of Europe) where millions and millions of people would be killed. I mean, Jesus Christ. It genuinely baffles me when people express those kind of sentiments glibly; the deep ecology people, Donna Harraway, apparently a significant subset of people on CnB ... weird.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: imitationleather on November 19, 2018, 07:02:51 PM
I find people in Europe or north America ruminating on the desirability of species-death for humans deeply troubling, particularly because it isn't people in Europe or north America who are deemed expendable populations when these kind of conversations roll around (as they did in the eugenics movements of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, for instance). I mean, you're talking about genocide, right? And it might be genocide draped in hazy, hippyish primitivism but the way it will happen, if it does happen, will be a product of the social and material conditions of the world now - which means it'll be the global south (which has already been fucked by the early industrialisation of Europe) where millions and millions of people would be killed. I mean, Jesus Christ. It genuinely baffles me when people express those kind of sentiments glibly; the deep ecology people, Donna Harraway, apparently a significant subset of people on CnB ... weird.

I get what you mean, but I always thought that when people said a very significant proportion of the population was going to die they included themselves in the part that was toast. Surviving and then having to live in a post-apocalyptic world would be shit anyway, even if you could afford the fanciest bunker from Insane Libertarian Lifestyle Stuff Inc.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Mr_Simnock on November 19, 2018, 07:06:35 PM
Quote
I mean, you're talking about genocide, right?

they are but remember that's nothing like joking about a single suicide is it

(https://t3.ftcdn.net/jpg/02/03/39/64/240_F_203396472_t6YDRJsdnJezgjd3EB1UgjC53VdRKyi3.jpg)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Shit Good Nose on November 19, 2018, 07:09:05 PM
I believe me and Buellers said total extinction of the human race - no geographic, racial, political or religious distinctions.

Mind you, today I learnt that termites produce more harmful gases from their termite arses than all the vehicles, industrial processes AND cows on the planet combined, so maybe get rid of termites first (are they useful for anything?) to buy us a few more years before me and Buellers push the oversized red button, just like Vasquez and Gorman in Aliens.  Except we won't be incredibly badly dated.


they are but remember that's nothing like joking about a single suicide is it

(https://t3.ftcdn.net/jpg/02/03/39/64/240_F_203396472_t6YDRJsdnJezgjd3EB1UgjC53VdRKyi3.jpg)

As I said, it didn't read like a joke to me at all.  Barbed sarcasm at the most.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Buelligan on November 19, 2018, 07:10:59 PM
I find people in Europe or north America ruminating on the desirability of species-death for humans deeply troubling, particularly because it isn't people in Europe or north America who are deemed expendable populations when these kind of conversations roll around (as they did in the eugenics movements of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, for instance). I mean, you're talking about genocide, right? And it might be genocide draped in hazy, hippyish primitivism but the way it will happen, if it does happen, will be a product of the social and material conditions of the world now - which means it'll be the global south (which has already been fucked by the early industrialisation of Europe) where millions and millions of people would be killed. I mean, Jesus Christ. It genuinely baffles me when people express those kind of sentiments glibly; the deep ecology people, Donna Harraway, apparently a significant subset of people on CnB ... weird.

I don't know what other people here or elsewhere are talking about, what I'm talking about is the recognition that no one is going to do anything, a big enough anything, to change the path we're on.  IMO, the options are not, stay as we are and put up with some over-crowding and mess or kill everyone and make a nice eco-park.  It's more like if we're not going to change, everyone is going to die, that's banked, do we want to take the whole planet with us or not?  Although, of course, in truth I absolutely do not want anything horrible to happen to anyone.

The ideal solution is that people (all the people or at least, enough people) wake up to the fact that something drastic needs to be changed.  If we could get to that, change our ways radically, maybe there could be a better set of choices before us.  But, as I said already, I don't think enough people are going to understand how bad things are getting until it affects them personally and seriously and at that point, I think it will probably be too late.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: MoonDust on November 19, 2018, 07:22:21 PM
I fear you might be right. I think another radical shift that needs to happen as well is how scientists think and treat their work. I mentioned in other pages things about what science gets funded. But for too long scientists have abandoned responsibility owing to the objectivity of science because they have the ethos "our job is to inform, it's to others what they do with that info." Well, scientists said the same thing when they published their hypotheses about splitting the atom. But how many of them truly had a clear conscious after Nagasaki and Hiroshima?

Abandoning responsibility like that won't cut the mustard. Especially when you think what posterity will think of it. "All well and good those climate/energy scientists telling us about climate change back in the 20th century. But what did they actually do?" "They just hoped governments would listen."

They need to do more than hope. I don't know what or how exactly, but the science community needs to start getting fucking political and sod the old philosophy that what people do - or in the case of climate change, don't do - with their information isn't their problem or responsibility.

And it works both ways. Scientists who go to work for oil giants should be shunned from the scientific community. We need to get to the point where a scientist deciding to pursue research in fossil fuel energy is committing career suicide. "Oh Professor Smith, you're off to work for Shell? Get to fuck." Etc etc
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: chveik on November 19, 2018, 07:29:14 PM
I believe me and Buellers said total extinction of the human race - no geographic, racial, political or religious distinctions.

Yes, but you are aware that people from rich countries won't be the first concerned about this extinction, despite the fact that they are the most responsible for the state of the world
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on November 19, 2018, 07:57:40 PM
If there is a form of communism in the future it's almost certainly going to be a resource-scarcity one where the capitalist system implodes as a result of environmental damage and its corollary effects on governments and stability. Authoritarianism will return big time in some form.

It will be so obvious that consumer capitalism based on duplication of goods leads to a creation of surplus waste - unthinkable during a time of resource scarcity, that some central forces will take it over.

It's whether governments will be powerful enough to take on corporations, or whether corporations will change tack and become a proxy state in a two tier society. One we are already morphing towards.

What is to stop creation of an Amazon Zone or the Apple Zone etc? Or more dull and likely: Capita Zone where our freedom and choices is subtly reduced more and more to the benefit of an unaccountable elite.?

Perhaps the misery and authoritarianism will be corporate led this time.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Buelligan on November 19, 2018, 08:01:03 PM
Yes, but you are aware that people from rich countries won't be the first concerned about this extinction, despite the fact that they are the most responsible for the state of the world

I think people in the third world are already suffering and dying but probably because they're in the third world, people like us often tend to gloss over it and change nothing, because we're used to people dying in the third world and our world staying safe.  I fear that this thing that appears to be happening doesn't really care where anyone comes from, it's going to have us all (though, I hope, most fervently, I am wrong).
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: MoonDust on November 19, 2018, 08:06:32 PM
Not gonna happen in a million years but a nice idea what be to rather than fine companies and governments that break climate legislation, actually give the CEOs and other higher ups responsible prison sentences? Name and shame them. Perhaps put them on trial in the Hague. Afterall, this climate emergency will claim the lives of millions, and human rights is intrinsically linked to climate catastrophe. Treat those directly responsible accordingly.

Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Pingers on November 19, 2018, 08:19:50 PM
Extinction is too extreme a word I think (extirpation might be better). It’d have to be a big disaster indeed to wipe out literally every person on the planet. More likely is 99.9% dying and a few people left in Barnsley, scrabbling around for whelks.

Ah, no change for Barnsley then.

The more mass civil disobedience the better in my view, whether it's on this or Universal Credit or anything else. Let's face it, they got rid of loads of the coppers and the prisons are full, so what the fuck are the powers that be going to do about it? They're hopelessly divided and there for the taking as far as I can see.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Lemming on November 19, 2018, 09:27:19 PM
Controversial though it is, I actually like humans/humanity (bar obvious exceptions like Adolf Hitler, Ted Bundy and Lee Mack). Therefore, I'd like to do something to tackle the impending apocalypse.

Given that I'm too PITIFULLY LAZY to engage in any kind of activism, is there actually anything practical that can be done on a personal level? I'm already never having kids, I don't have a car, and I don't eat meat or animal products, which I understand are the Big Three of hopefully-not-destroying-the-planet. I do have the TV on in the background when I'm not even watching it, though, so it will be essentially all my fault when the tsunamis start hitting.

Anything else that we can actually do? Or do we just have to subject ourselves to the whims of the corporations who cause the vast majority of this shit?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: KennyMonster on November 19, 2018, 10:16:59 PM
If we do agree to stop ourselves existing for the sake of the planet I bet we forget to switch Trident off or something and it all goes to tits anyway.

We are balls.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: manticore on November 19, 2018, 10:20:27 PM
I mean, Jesus Christ. It genuinely baffles me when people express those kind of sentiments glibly; the deep ecology people, Donna Harraway, apparently a significant subset of people on CnB ... weird.

Yes, and anyone indulging their mass homicidal fantasies about the human race are actually complicit in the hastening of the ecological disaster they claim to fear because by doing so they're actively promoting apathy and hopelessness about the human capacity to do something about it. Their attitude is one of the defining characterisics of the spirit of the age which is leading us into disaster as it undermines the quailities of human care and mutuality that we most need.

That capacity would come from a realisation that it's social and political forces that have led us into the situation we're in, not some Original Sin or essential evil, and that it's criticising and acting against those forces that would give us some chance.

So maybe people can look at what Extinction Rebellion have to say and think about what you can do, even if it just involves contributing a little money, and give up with all the luxuriating in despair.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/921/EIari5.png)

https://rebellion.earth/who-we-are/ (https://rebellion.earth/who-we-are/)

Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: imitationleather on November 19, 2018, 10:36:32 PM
I wonder if undercover police officers have managed to get any of Extinction Rebellion pregnant yet.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Buelligan on November 19, 2018, 10:41:14 PM
It's only a matter of time but fortunately, that's exactly what we don't have.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: manticore on November 21, 2018, 03:39:36 AM
A short report from The Real News about the Saturday protests:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poZV4OfieAA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poZV4OfieAA)

The comments section is full of right-wing lunatics. The video must have been shared around on their websites or something.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: MoonDust on November 21, 2018, 02:16:08 PM
Another road block today. Lambeth bridge during rush hour. Apparently lots of drivers hurling abuse and lots of cyclists giving praise.

Quite mad really. They were barely unheard of a month ago and now have already made 3 (or was it 4) big protests that got mainstream media attention. All very close together in time as well.

I hope this isn't the initial flame of a new group being giddy with excitement. I hope the momentum can keep going and growing. Who knows, maybe politicians might start paying attention (fat chance but one can dream).
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Fambo Number Mive on November 21, 2018, 03:20:15 PM
Controversial though it is, I actually like humans/humanity (bar obvious exceptions like Adolf Hitler, Ted Bundy and Lee Mack). Therefore, I'd like to do something to tackle the impending apocalypse.

Given that I'm too PITIFULLY LAZY to engage in any kind of activism, is there actually anything practical that can be done on a personal level? I'm already never having kids, I don't have a car, and I don't eat meat or animal products, which I understand are the Big Three of hopefully-not-destroying-the-planet. I do have the TV on in the background when I'm not even watching it, though, so it will be essentially all my fault when the tsunamis start hitting.

Anything else that we can actually do? Or do we just have to subject ourselves to the whims of the corporations who cause the vast majority of this shit?

I think public transport across the UK needs to be improved to get more people out of cars. What do people think about donating to campaigns like the Campaign for Better Transport?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: steve98 on November 21, 2018, 03:52:53 PM
Youth in Asia, that's the solution.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: thenoise on November 21, 2018, 03:54:48 PM
Controversial though it is, I actually like humans/humanity (bar obvious exceptions like Adolf Hitler, Ted Bundy and Lee Mack). Therefore, I'd like to do something to tackle the impending apocalypse.

Given that I'm too PITIFULLY LAZY to engage in any kind of activism, is there actually anything practical that can be done on a personal level? I'm already never having kids, I don't have a car, and I don't eat meat or animal products, which I understand are the Big Three of hopefully-not-destroying-the-planet. I do have the TV on in the background when I'm not even watching it, though, so it will be essentially all my fault when the tsunamis start hitting.

Anything else that we can actually do? Or do we just have to subject ourselves to the whims of the corporations who cause the vast majority of this shit?

I like and share posts on twitter that advocate doing something about climate change.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gout_pony on November 21, 2018, 04:21:13 PM
Worth it just for this:
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/extinction-rebellion-protest-comedian-jim-davidson-among-motorists-held-up-by-swarming-rally-in-a3996251.html (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/extinction-rebellion-protest-comedian-jim-davidson-among-motorists-held-up-by-swarming-rally-in-a3996251.html)

Quote
when a protester talked to him he said he didn't talk to lefties

You thinking of getting involved, MoonDust? :)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: phes on November 21, 2018, 04:45:00 PM
I think public transport across the UK needs to be improved to get more people out of cars.

You won't have much luck getting people out of cars with transit improvements. But what it can do is make travelling for the carless and/or disadvantaged cheaper, more efficient and pleasurable, with obvious economic and public health gains. You basically have to cunt drivers out of their cars with a size 12. Congestion charging works in forcing a mode shift to some degree and so a decent transit system will support that shift. Even if you do get people out of their cars the latent/induced demand means that in most instances they will just be replaced by others.

Drivers, essentially they need to be identified and killed faster than they are able to buy cars.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: MoonDust on November 21, 2018, 05:01:50 PM
Worth it just for this:
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/extinction-rebellion-protest-comedian-jim-davidson-among-motorists-held-up-by-swarming-rally-in-a3996251.html (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/extinction-rebellion-protest-comedian-jim-davidson-among-motorists-held-up-by-swarming-rally-in-a3996251.html)

You thinking of getting involved, MoonDust? :)

Haha poor Jim.

The most I've done is sign up to their mailing list. I'm not in the UK.

If it spreads to Germany I would be interested definitely. There's a protest in Berlin this Friday but I live in Mannheim which is South West. Pretty much the opposite of where Berln is.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: phes on November 21, 2018, 05:13:36 PM
I'm thinking about this. I'm training for an allied health role with the NHS over the next year, so I have made an appointment to discuss with the head of course what happens if I were to be arrested during that time. I need a job, and I may be more value in that job than at a rally. Hopefully it won't come to an either-or

There are cheap coaches from around the country to the London event on Saturday, and also there's an event in Manchester
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: MoonDust on November 21, 2018, 05:21:39 PM
I'm thinking about this. I'm training for an allied health role with the NHS over the next year, so I have made an appointment to discuss with the head of course what happens if I were to be arrested during that time. I need a job, and I may be more value in that job than at a rally. Hopefully it won't come to an either-or

There are cheap coaches from around the country to the London event on Saturday, and also there's an event in Manchester

Errr. Is the training a probation period as well? I would avert asking potential future bosses "What happens if I get arrested?" as I would guess it doesn't look good from their point of view. Certainly not at an interview. Not sure about training..
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: phes on November 21, 2018, 05:29:54 PM
Errr. Is the training a probation period as well? I would avert asking potential future bosses "What happens if I get arrested?" as I would guess it doesn't look good from their point of view. Certainly not at an interview. Not sure about training..

The head of course is unrelated to the NHS and my future employment. But will be able to answer my question. We are a very small cohort, she knows us all well and so I'm pretty comfortable putting a hypothetical scenario like this to her
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: MoonDust on November 21, 2018, 05:32:29 PM
The head of course is unrelated to the NHS and my future employment. But will be able to answer my question. We are a very small cohort, she knows us all well and so I'm pretty comfortable putting a hypothetical scenario like this to her

Ah fair. Sorry.

You should go to London or Manchester I reckon. More the better innit.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: phes on November 21, 2018, 05:39:46 PM
As her job is turning out employable staff (that they invest heavily in) I suspect she'll chuck coffee in my face and point at the door
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Paul Calf on November 21, 2018, 05:41:58 PM
You won't have much luck getting people out of cars with transit improvements. But what it can do is make travelling for the carless and/or disadvantaged cheaper, more efficient and pleasurable, with obvious economic and public health gains. You basically have to cunt drivers out of their cars with a size 12. Congestion charging works in forcing a mode shift to some degree and so a decent transit system will support that shift. Even if you do get people out of their cars the latent/induced demand means that in most instances they will just be replaced by others.

Drivers, essentially they need to be identified and killed faster than they are able to buy cars.

Mass transit just has to be better and cheaper than driving. Trains are great but they’re overcrowded, unreliable, there aren’t enough stations and they cost 10-20x more than driving. Coaches can fuck right off until they somehow stop being incredibly uncomfortable and stinking of shit.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: MoonDust on November 21, 2018, 05:45:10 PM
As her job is turning out employable staff (that they invest heavily in) I suspect she'll chuck coffee in my face and point at the door

Thing is when people get arrested at protests, unless you've quite obviously done a crime like assault or vandalism, aren't you let go after a few hours as they can't hold you on anything? Like when a news report says "200 arrested at this protest" surely not all 200 are charged with anything? It's just a slap on the wrist that involves being held against your will, for a bit.

Or am I just being horribly naïve?

Basically what I'm getting at is, if you go to this protest and become one of dozens arrested, will your trainers even know about it? Would you even get a record if they release you with no charges after a few hours in a cell?


Clearly I'm speaking as someone who's never been arrested at a protest, so maybe someone else can give a better answer.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: MoonDust on November 21, 2018, 05:48:43 PM
Mass transit just has to be better and cheaper than driving. Trains are great but they’re overcrowded, unreliable, there aren’t enough stations and they cost 10-20x more than driving. Coaches can fuck right off until they somehow stop being incredibly uncomfortable and stinking of shit.

Unless you're as daft as me and have once taken a coach from Manchester to Belgrade and back, you can quit your moaning about coaches within the UK. Bloody short haul in comparison!
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Endicott on November 21, 2018, 06:24:49 PM
Coaches can fuck right off until they somehow stop being incredibly uncomfortable and stinking of shit.

Move to Spain. Fabulous coach (and bus for that matter) services.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: MoonDust on November 21, 2018, 06:28:59 PM
Move to Spain. Fabulous coach (and bus for that matter) services.

Oh Yeah! I forgot about this. I got a coach from Granada to Cordoba and got given a free goodie bag of snacks and bottle of water. Plus a personal back-of-seat TV screen (not that I used that much with the wonderful scenery out the window).

Then again, saying how great free plastic bottle of water was in a thread about environmental catastrophe but hey ho.

Endicott is right, Spanish coaches are ace. Arguably better than the trains.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: phes on November 21, 2018, 06:30:11 PM
Mass transit just has to be better and cheaper than driving.

Realistically the only way we can achieve this is by making driving shitter and more expensive than public transport. Driving is cheap because the true cost is massively subsidised. Even if PT is cheaper at point of access people have likely invested capital in a car anyway and will feel obliged to justify the standing costs, they'll value travel-time lower when sat in their car in congestion than when stood waiting at a bust stop or station, people live in low density areas that have either never been well served or links have been stripped away, and people link one journey destination after the other to shop, ferry kids about, go to work etc, something that a car will always serve better than is realistically achievable by PT. Improving PT is a great thing but contexts that'll it'll actually reduce congestion in are pretty limited
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on November 21, 2018, 07:10:14 PM
Yeah, why improve something when you can just artificially make something worse.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: phes on November 21, 2018, 07:32:24 PM
There's a host of reasons we should improve PT as mentioned in previous post, just saying that in most contexts PT improvements doesn't work as a measure to reduce congestion (shift people from roads to PT and the roads just refill). You have to make driving worse to get people out of their cars in the first place. Even then, stuff like congestion charges will usually see a rebound after a dip in use

The cost of auto ownership and operation is currently artificially low. Making it more expensive is just bringing it closer the true cost
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: garnish on November 21, 2018, 07:40:10 PM
There's a host of reasons we should improve PT as mentioned in previous post, just saying that in most contexts PT improvements doesn't work as a measure to reduce congestion (shift people from roads to PT and the roads just refill). You have to make driving worse to get people out of their cars.

The cost of auto ownership and operation is currently artificially low. Making it more expensive is just bringing it closer the true cost

There's a cultural shift required too I think, e.g. how we do our shopping - no more big shops, or more shopping at the local instead of the big supermarket.  And then on top, we need to stop piling more and more people into town centres and instead spread out the resources (offices, local amenities, etc) to reduce the need for longer journeys.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on November 21, 2018, 07:41:42 PM
It's ok, how about delivered groceries and everyone stays in their Malvina Reynolds style boxes watching netflix and shutting the fuck up.

Lets ban matrix heaters in cars and drill holes in the roof so it's cold and wet and shit in them like it is on public transport.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: phes on November 21, 2018, 07:51:22 PM
There's a cultural shift required too I think, e.g. how we do our shopping - no more big shops, or more shopping at the local instead of the big supermarket.  And then on top, we need to stop piling more and more people into town centres and instead spread out the resources (offices, local amenities, etc) to reduce the need for longer journeys.

There's actually been a reduction in road use for private autos and in young people holding licences, but it's been offset entirely by delivery vehicles.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: manticore on November 21, 2018, 08:14:08 PM
A short piece in the Guardian by someone arrested at the protests:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/20/i-was-arrested-climate-change-protest-direct-action-extinction-rebellion (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/20/i-was-arrested-climate-change-protest-direct-action-extinction-rebellion)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Autopsy Turvey on November 21, 2018, 09:52:23 PM
This isn't some grand 'anti-natalism' concept. I'm not sure the planet is sustainable within my lifetime; how can you in good faith bring someone else into this world with that looming over you?

There's a Billy Connolly routine where he talks about friends in the 80s nuclear paranoia era saying they didn't want to bring a child into this world, and makes the point that when he was conceived there was a war on, Hitler was marching about with his jodhpurs on, "Thank God my parents went 'Who cares, fuck it!'"

All I'll say is I hope this 'protest' tactic of wilfully obstructing free passage along a highway doesn't catch on. All very well when it's students and artists bleating about CO2, holding up Jim Davidson, I daresay you wouldn't want to be behind Tommy Robinson's lot bawling about Islam on your school run.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Paul Calf on November 21, 2018, 11:52:30 PM
There's a host of reasons we should improve PT as mentioned in previous post, just saying that in most contexts PT improvements doesn't work as a measure to reduce congestion (shift people from roads to PT and the roads just refill). You have to make driving worse to get people out of their cars in the first place. Even then, stuff like congestion charges will usually see a rebound after a dip in use

The cost of auto ownership and operation is currently artificially low. Making it more expensive is just bringing it closer the true cost

Yeah, making driving shit is much cheaper and easier than spending money on making mass transit cheap, convenient and comfortable. Plus, peopke with children and disabled people who depend on their cars will suffer and will probably be less mobile as a result. Still, fuck them eh? Shouldn’t be disabled if they want to get around.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: phes on November 22, 2018, 12:30:06 AM
Yeah, making driving shit is much cheaper and easier than spending money on making mass transit cheap, convenient and comfortable. Plus, peopke with children and disabled people who depend on their cars will suffer and will probably be less mobile as a result. Still, fuck them eh? Shouldn’t be disabled if they want to get around.

Now you're just being silly. Those are the direct measures that we know to actually work to get people out of their cars and they're not going to get implemented widespread because in some locations they're regressive, and politically a disaster (though blue badge holders are exempt from most congestion and toll charges).

I don't know why you're intent on attacking them like they're my proposal.

Building transit systems isn't a very effective measure alone to getting people out of cars. Neither is incentivising those transport systems. The most effective way we know is to disincentivise auto use and provide a reliable alternative. If you can find ways that aren't regressive to disincentivise auto-use then great, I'm all for that as part of an overall strategy. Personal autos are a vital mode and will continue to be.

Potentially the single most powerful solution to reducing unnecessary auto use is the simplest one: car-sharing. It's just not realised anything like its potential, yet. But the kids don't care about car ownership the way we used to, they want convenience and value, so the transport industry should tap into that and revolutionise vehicle ownership over the next decade
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Lemming on November 22, 2018, 01:32:01 AM
Panic over, just found out climate change isn't actually real:

(https://i.imgur.com/UAQon1x.png)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Noonling on November 22, 2018, 02:22:08 PM
Hives.

Bee hives.

Humans should live in bee hive like structure where each of the six hexagon nearby have all the amenities you need (and their nearby hexagons contain the resources for amenities) and you only live there if you work in those hexagons. Then no need for cars OR public transport.

Hey guys, I just solved global warming.

Oh, also no international business any more but hey ho.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: biggytitbo on November 22, 2018, 02:35:02 PM
Why do these SELFISH TWATS have to ruin the perfectly enjoyable planetary extinction the rest of us are having?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: biggytitbo on November 22, 2018, 05:37:14 PM
Just occurred to me this is another thing Nigel Kneale got right

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/mNHAwEKg5nY/maxresdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Endicott on November 22, 2018, 06:28:56 PM
The cost of auto ownership and operation is currently artificially low.

What? Show your working. What would a sensible price be?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: phes on November 22, 2018, 07:27:42 PM
What? Show your working. What would a sensible price be?

I'm not going to argue about what a sensible or fair price would be, but a price that covered the true cost would be one that covered the enormous environmental, financial, social and health burden caused by running such a mode of transport so inefficiently and harmfully. That might include costs

Noise pollution
Air pollution
Accidents and all associated burdens to individual and society
Physical environmental destruction
Climate change
Soil pollution
Water pollution
Destruction of community cohesion
Increase in cost of land and property purchase/development caused by parking and operational requirements
Economic loss through congestion
Increased cost of goods to subsidise free parking
Decrease in wages to subsidise free parking
Increased cost and time of travel caused by sprawl

You could just keep going. The price of personal driving doesn't in any way reflect the cost and that cost is born by all.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Paul Calf on November 22, 2018, 08:10:23 PM
Tonight I took the train from Manchester to the Midlands, a distance of about 75 miles. It took 4 hours. The first train from Manchester to Sheffield was so crowded that first class was declassified and seat reservations were cancelled throughout the train. It was late and I missed my connection.

On arrival at my home station, I had to get a lift because the station is three miles from where I live and there’s no bus service.

Including the taxi to Manchester Piccadilly (over a mile from my place of work) the trip cost over £60.

Next week I’m driving.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gout_pony on November 22, 2018, 08:29:13 PM
Not wholly sure about the tactic of swarming - certainly isn't going to get the majority of the public on-side, but I suppose if there is lost productivity, the government will start to be concerned...

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/avoid-londons-roads-for-days-police-tell-motorists-amid-swarming-climate-protests-a3996651.html (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/avoid-londons-roads-for-days-police-tell-motorists-amid-swarming-climate-protests-a3996651.html)

Quote
Warmer summers and flooding Bangladesh ...... Mmm, I’m off to buy some more spray cans.

Quote
Can motorists sue the police for not removing these protesters from the road ?

Quote
Just how useless and ineffective do you have to be that this is the best thing you can think of to make a meaningful difference to climate change? Morons.

Quote
eco terrorists bringing the capital to a standstill is a crime if the useless police dont deal with them then the affected motorists will have no choice but take these freaks on

(https://the-artifice.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/ETC-578x257.jpg)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on November 22, 2018, 08:31:32 PM
Tonight I took the train from Manchester to the Midlands, a distance of about 75 miles. It took 4 hours. The first train from Manchester to Sheffield was so crowded that first class was declassified and seat reservations were cancelled throughout the train. It was late and I missed my connection.

On arrival at my home station, I had to get a lift because the station is three miles from where I live and there’s no bus service.

Including the taxi to Manchester Piccadilly (over a mile from my place of work) the trip cost over £60.

Next week I’m driving.

Maybe the problem is driving's too painless?

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SourImmaculateCob-size_restricted.gif)

Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: phes on November 22, 2018, 08:50:09 PM
Christ this is painful

The most effective way we know is to disincentivise auto use and provide a reliable alternative.

People will drive regardless of public transport improvements. The reason we've failed in most cases to reduce congestion is because we haven't disincentivised driving
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gout_pony on November 23, 2018, 12:02:51 AM
Another big protest planned for Sat for those able to come!
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: FerriswheelBueller on November 23, 2018, 12:35:27 AM
Hives.

Bee hives.

Humans should live in bee hive like structure where each of the six hexagon nearby have all the amenities you need (and their nearby hexagons contain the resources for amenities) and you only live there if you work in those hexagons. Then no need for cars OR public transport.

Hey guys, I just solved global warming.

Oh, also no international business any more but hey ho.

I live in an apartment building - this is essentially how I live already. WHAT’S EVERYONE ELSE’S EXCUSE?

Als re: having kids - Ferris Jr is due in January. Years of stockpiling firearms and krugerrands will mean he will be the king of the new society that is forged in the coming Resource Wars. I’d hate to be the rest of you once he takes over.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: manticore on November 23, 2018, 12:47:23 AM
Not wholly sure about the tactic of swarming - certainly isn't going to get the majority of the public on-side, but I suppose if there is lost productivity, the government will start to be concerned...

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/avoid-londons-roads-for-days-police-tell-motorists-amid-swarming-climate-protests-a3996651.html (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/avoid-londons-roads-for-days-police-tell-motorists-amid-swarming-climate-protests-a3996651.html)

I think the essence of it is to keep the issue in people's consciousness, force the BBC and the rest of the media to keep talking about it. This catastrophe should be in every single news programme every day, which seems to be beginning to happen and must be sustained. It must be made a running theme so none of the political parties can put forward a general policy statement without the ecology being the central theme.

Apart from the threat of nuclear annihilation it's the greatest emergency in the history of humanity after all, there should be disruption in the streets and people must not be allowed to put the thing aside and live in a state of denial and self-delusion. Reality must break in.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Lemming on November 23, 2018, 01:02:15 AM
This is probably a stupid question, but what if an ambulance needs to get through?

If they ever do any protests up here in Leeds, anyway, I'll try to support them.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Paul Calf on November 23, 2018, 05:01:34 AM
Christ this is painful

People will drive regardless of public transport improvements. The reason we've failed in most cases to reduce congestion is because we haven't disincentivised driving

Can you actually read? Am I posting in Sanskrit?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: phes on November 23, 2018, 09:19:48 AM
Can you actually read? Am I posting in Sanskrit?

It was a response to the previous post.

Yes I read your post. I also own a car because the rail system in the regions you're talking about is so often hopeless and too expensive. I'm not sure what the wider point is
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Paul Calf on November 23, 2018, 09:42:26 AM
Oh, fair enough.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Paul Calf on November 23, 2018, 09:44:16 AM
Maybe the problem is driving's too painless?

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SourImmaculateCob-size_restricted.gif)



Not in fucking Manchester it isn't.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Blumf on November 23, 2018, 10:20:53 AM
Yeah! Everybody should get out of their cars and use public transport. You've got regular buses and the tube, and.... what do you mean 'what about outside of London'?

Meanwhile...

(https://www.factor-tech.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/cargo-ship.jpg)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Fambo Number Mive on November 23, 2018, 10:26:40 AM
I imagine the government cuts to council bus subsidies haven't helped, although I accept that improving public transport, essential as it is, isn't the only thing we need to do to get people out of cars. And I know that for a lot of people the car is the only alternative.

In related news, concern over China backing more coal projects: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-46310807

Does environmental campaigning need to happen at a more global level?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Endicott on November 23, 2018, 11:53:56 AM
People will drive regardless of public transport improvements. The reason we've failed in most cases to reduce congestion is because we haven't disincentivised driving

I think it's this point I specifically disagree with . If I lived in Spain I could take advantage of the cheap hourly coach service between towns, and cheap local mini-buses running even through cobbled narrow streets every 10 min. No way would I bother with a car. At the very least I'd cut down my car usage considerably.

Is there a different ethos in this country? Everyone seems to get driven to school, which didn't happen 40 years ago. 40 years ago kids living in the sticks had to use the bus service, but then it was a better service back then.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Buelligan on November 23, 2018, 12:08:12 PM
Tonight I took the train from Manchester to the Midlands, a distance of about 75 miles. It took 4 hours. The first train from Manchester to Sheffield was so crowded that first class was declassified and seat reservations were cancelled throughout the train. It was late and I missed my connection.

On arrival at my home station, I had to get a lift because the station is three miles from where I live and there’s no bus service.

Including the taxi to Manchester Piccadilly (over a mile from my place of work) the trip cost over £60.

Next week I’m driving.

This is terrible, unless you have a mobility problem, you should be walking this.  And we wonder why obesity is a problem (along with  climate change).  Get those little leggies moving Paul, it will probably delay you a bit, work it into your schedule, because it will also delay your dying day and maybe, mine.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: phes on November 23, 2018, 12:44:43 PM
I think it's this point I specifically disagree with . If I lived in Spain I could take advantage of the cheap hourly coach service between towns, and cheap local mini-buses running even through cobbled narrow streets every 10 min. No way would I bother with a car. At the very least I'd cut down my car usage considerably.


Yeah I am simplifying and generalising massively. On an individual level people will respond when you improve public transportation e.g. generalising again but for every 10% reduction in bus fares we see about a 3% increase in ridership, but this only results in a reduction in car use of about 0.5%, and that usually rebounds after an initial surge. 0.5% decrease is quite significant when it comes to alleviating congestion, unfortunately when you manage to shift drivers from the road and onto PT one of the effects is that by reducing congestion you decrease auto travel time and cost and ultimately improve the driving experience. Meaning other people shift back to car use, existing drivers drive more frequently and further and driving becomes more appealing to people to people considering their options. Which is why disincentivising driving is usually key to sustaining shifts from cars to PT. One of the reasons PT is so successful in major urban centres is because driving is now, as mentioned re. MCR, a fucking nightmare. In part because of congestion but also because of the way we've stripped away almost all free parking, a great deal of the on-street parking and the cost of parking a car off-street has risen to levels that many people find unacceptable (go below the line on any 'death of the high street' BBC article and car parking is one of those subjects that makes people absolutely furious).

Quote
Is there a different ethos in this country? Everyone seems to get driven to school, which didn't happen 40 years ago. 40 years ago kids living in the sticks had to use the bus service, but then it was a better service back then.

Parents massively overestimate the danger of walking to and from transport links or to school (reality is that parents often drop their kids in the most dangerous zones, which many contribute to by idling or parking with complete disregard for safety)

Kids don't know their town/city like they used to because they play out less and are transported by car rather than foot or cycle, so they're unable to develop mental maps of their area with any great detail, including knowing how to get to where their classmates live and what the associated dangers are. Parents know this.

Speed, volume, noise on roads all impact connections people make in local communities, People are less likely to know others living nearby and across busy roads, so in areas now dominated by infrastructure/traffic people just don't know each other and the 'walk to school' doesn't exist in the same way that it did unless it's part of a formal or informal adult-led initiative of some kind

Low income neighborhoods are often poorly served by PT and further from destinations. The people who live there are usually also fatter, unhealthier, less active and more time-poor

Basically distance, perception of crime and danger and the socially destructive effects of infrastructure and traffic has increased the use of autos to get kids to school and it all becomes one horrible feedback loop that re-enforces that.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Paul Calf on November 23, 2018, 12:49:38 PM
This is terrible, unless you have a mobility problem, you should be walking this.  And we wonder why obesity is a problem (along with  climate change).  Get those little leggies moving Paul, it will probably delay you a bit, work it into your schedule, because it will also delay your dying day and maybe, mine.

I had a 30kg suitcase and an hourly train. I spend the week away from my family so every hour I'm pissing about lugging a suitcase over potholed pavements is an hour out of the only time I have with them. So no, I will not.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Buelligan on November 23, 2018, 12:55:28 PM
Get a wheely case if it's too heavy and think of all the hours and days, maybe even years, you'll save on the other end.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: phes on November 23, 2018, 01:00:30 PM
I would've wheeled that case right over the Peak District along the Snake Pass and felt seriously fucking Zen when I got home

(https://i2-prod.derbytelegraph.co.uk/incoming/article2244285.ece/ALTERNATES/s810/0_CO_TEM_21118A515Snake_Pass001JPG.jpg)

Come on Paul
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Paul Calf on November 23, 2018, 01:28:14 PM
Get a wheely case if it's too heavy and think of all the hours and days, maybe even years, you'll save on the other end.

Why don't you find yourself a nice boyfriend?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sin Agog on November 23, 2018, 01:43:11 PM
Maybe her ideal man is in bits and pieces wrapped in cellophane inside your suitcase?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Chollis on November 23, 2018, 01:48:29 PM
Oh come on Paul you fat fuck
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Neville Chamberlain on November 23, 2018, 01:49:07 PM
I had a 30kg suitcase and an hourly train. I spend the week away from my family so every hour I'm pissing about lugging a suitcase over potholed pavements is an hour out of the only time I have with them. So no, I will not.

Worst excuse ever. Start walking at midnight if you have to.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Paul Calf on November 23, 2018, 01:52:22 PM
How did this thread become the Unwanted Advice Recycle Bin?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sin Agog on November 23, 2018, 02:17:22 PM
How did this thread become the Unwanted Advice Recycle Bin?

At least we're recycling something.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Neville Chamberlain on November 23, 2018, 02:18:54 PM
How else do you destroy the planet, Paul?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Captain Z on November 23, 2018, 02:22:21 PM
You shouldn't even need a suitcase, you can just make the stuff you need at your destination out of things the everyday folk leave behind.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: pancreas on November 23, 2018, 02:23:55 PM
Paul, have you considered that if you stopped smoking and drinking so much, you wouldn't get out of breath carrying your suitcase such a little distance?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Blumf on November 23, 2018, 02:57:27 PM
Does anyone know what the carbon footprint of a beer scooter (http://www.bbc.co.uk/lancashire/fun_stuff/2003/02/05/bacchus.shtml) is? Could save Paul a lot of hassle.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: pancreas on November 23, 2018, 03:01:53 PM
The other thing to do is to sort your hair and clothes out: you're a fucking mess, Paul Calf, and people are laughing at you.

Paul Caff, more like.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: manticore on November 23, 2018, 03:35:47 PM
I've always associated buses themselves with having a rather negative environmental impact, but it seems this may be beginning to change:

https://greenerjourneys.com/news/clean-bus-revolution-cuts-emissions-55000-tonnes-year/ (https://greenerjourneys.com/news/clean-bus-revolution-cuts-emissions-55000-tonnes-year/)

I'm guessing phes might know more about this.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Buelligan on November 23, 2018, 03:38:05 PM
Why don't you find yourself a nice boyfriend?

Bit sexist.

What's wrong with girls.  Anyway, I looked, they're all too small.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Fambo Number Mive on November 23, 2018, 03:51:12 PM
Buses also reduce congestion as well, if routes are planned and run properly.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on November 23, 2018, 04:51:45 PM
Places with district heating mains don't have inefficient domestic gas central heating, but instead of providing infrastructure lets just massively tax gas and turn it off on Wednesdays to force people onto expensive electric bar heaters or expensive upfront heat pumps.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Captain Z on November 23, 2018, 04:55:38 PM
We should also look into weekly sacrifices to Ra. There was no global warming during ancient Egypt, just saying.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Paul Calf on November 23, 2018, 05:59:04 PM
Bit sexist.

What's wrong with girls.  Anyway, I looked, they're all too small.

I know. It was terrible advice. I don't know why I bothered giving it when I have absolutely no understanding of your individual circumstances.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on November 23, 2018, 07:17:53 PM
Just so I've got this written down right:
Using a combustion engine to make an essential journey that you could've walked if you fancied the inconvenience = bad.
Using a combustion engine to make a completely non-essential journey for entertainment, almost as if it was attached to a toy = fine?

Is that it?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: phes on November 23, 2018, 07:32:28 PM
I've always associated buses themselves with having a rather negative environmental impact, but it seems this may be beginning to change:

https://greenerjourneys.com/news/clean-bus-revolution-cuts-emissions-55000-tonnes-year/ (https://greenerjourneys.com/news/clean-bus-revolution-cuts-emissions-55000-tonnes-year/)

I'm guessing phes might know more about this.

tbh I'm not really hot on recent tech stuff. I do believe that even just a few years back when diesel buses were much more polluting of NOx and particulates than new Euro 6 standards (and all the various types of hybrid internal combustion/electric engines) that buses still compared favourably with cars. When you look at the fullpicture, the life cycle of sourcing material, producing, transporting, constructing, operating, maintaining, storing and disposing, the potential capacity of the system, the way we develop land around transit systems re. density and use etc, that a decent bus/transit system (in a place that can support it) is going to have the potential to be much more sustainable per passenger kilometer travelled.

Buses have also been subject to in-use/real-time testing of emissions for longer than cars, which until very recently were only required to be laboratory tested, favouring the manufacturer (some of whom still cheated). So i'd trust any historical data from larger commercial vehicles more than that from cars, which is often used for comparisons
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on November 23, 2018, 07:38:09 PM
I don't really know why trolleybuses aren't more popular; as clean as trams but less disruptive and massively cheaper to implement.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Buelligan on November 23, 2018, 10:50:28 PM
I know. It was terrible advice. I don't know why I bothered giving it when I have absolutely no understanding of your individual circumstances.

My choosing not to have a partner doesn't affect anyone though, does it?  My concern was purely that the frequent choice by huge numbers of people not to walk completely walkable distances is seen as perfectly normal.  This is a thread where people are talking about environmental problems, this perfectly normal feeling that it's fine to choose not to walk in most of the developed world is, I'm guessing, a real contribution to those problems.  Just the mindset, the fact that it's seen as perfectly normal does need to change.  Don't you think so?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: New Jack on November 23, 2018, 10:51:17 PM
Tags: The Bee Gees' lyrics ignored
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: phes on November 23, 2018, 11:09:36 PM
My choosing not to have a partner doesn't affect anyone though, does it?  My concern was purely that the frequent choice by huge numbers of people not to walk completely walkable distances is seen as perfectly normal.  This is a thread where people are talking about environmental problems, this perfectly normal feeling that it's fine to choose not to walk in most of the developed world is, I'm guessing, a real contribution to those problems.  Just the mindset, the fact that it's seen as perfectly normal does need to change.  Don't you think so?

I don't think it's reasonable or realistic to expect someone to walk 3 miles as part of a lengthier journey in this context. Surely the savings are in better land use and transport planning
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: New Jack on November 23, 2018, 11:22:06 PM
I don't think it's reasonable or realistic to expect someone to walk 3 miles as part of a lengthier journey in this context. Surely the savings are in better land use and transport planning

Weird, I just posted about my work day in the Work Cunts thread - I have to do three miles on foot there and again back. Ain't no way around it.

It is very doable and I already feel fitter.

However... It isn't nice. And I'm not sure I'd use it as a yardstick exactly. Maybe just 'well done if you do it'.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: FerriswheelBueller on November 23, 2018, 11:35:21 PM
Weird, I just posted about my work day in the Work Cunts thread - I have to do three miles on foot there and again back. Ain't no way around it.

It is very doable and I already feel fitter.

However... It isn't nice. And I'm not sure I'd use it as a yardstick exactly. Maybe just 'well done if you do it'.

Well especially if that takes an hour of your free time that you could spend with your wife and kids, as Paul Calf mentioned. I’d make the same choice.

Flying, eating beef, or using single-use plastics are a far bigger concern than how often Paul Calf goes for a walk I reckon, though it is a societal thing I suppose so I see Buelligan’s point (us “Buellers” have to stick together). Then again, I chose not to fly to Montreal for a vacation last week so in terms of carbon saved, I’m golden.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Kryton on November 23, 2018, 11:46:18 PM
Man gets taxi.

Is this what we've reduced ourselves to? Arguing about a man getting a taxi with a suitcase? Unless the suitcase was made from ivory and the contents were radioactive and he chose some taxi from the 1970's spurting out lead and he was getting that taxi to say hijack  and take the bewildered taxi driver on a harrowing police chase culminating into a fucking mad crash into the giraffe pen at the zoo, then I don't know why it's an issue.

Maybe he was tired? Our just couldn't be fucking arsed after a long day? Maybe he had people he needed to see or a family to get home to?

Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gout_pony on November 24, 2018, 12:43:24 AM
Stop arguing about this damn taxi so you can start agreeing on going to these protests, all!
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on November 24, 2018, 12:44:00 AM
Everywhere's walking distance if your time is of no value.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: FerriswheelBueller on November 24, 2018, 03:57:10 AM
Everywhere's walking distance if your time is of no value.

Yeah but I didn’t actually fly on vacation so I have shitloads of virtue points to flaunt in everyone else’s face. QED.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Paul Calf on November 24, 2018, 06:07:21 AM
Weird, I just posted about my work day in the Work Cunts thread - I have to do three miles on foot there and again back. Ain't no way around it.

It is very doable and I already feel fitter.

However... It isn't nice. And I'm not sure I'd use it as a yardstick exactly. Maybe just 'well done if you do it'.

I’d love to be able to walk three miles to work - I used to walk two miles each way in London - but on top of a three-hour (minimum, if no connections are missed) train journey, it just feels like a huge bite out of my home time.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Buelligan on November 24, 2018, 07:29:13 AM
And that's the problem, everyone thinks those perfectly reasonable things and each individual decision to just have one cheeky chocolate is practially nothing.  It's just there are so many of us.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: MoonDust on November 24, 2018, 09:37:05 AM
Well Extinction Rebellion themselves say they're not here to play the blame game. However I think there are people to blame: not the average person but the people in charge of oil giants, pesticide giants, government officials etc. We should be pointing our fingers at them, not people getting taxis to train stations, no matter how many are doing it.

It's like in war, you don't pin the blame on the normal foot soldier, even though there's thousands of them doing the same thing. They're not to blame. You blame the politicians and generals executing the war. It's just been the centenary of WW1 and most people now agree how pointless it was and how much of a tragedy it was. But do we blame the thousands of young British men who joined up in 1914 during the wave of patriotic fever? Or the thousands of young German men who had no choice and were drafted into the trenches from the start? No. We blame the leaders of the imperial powers at the time who were squabbling amongst themselves and sending poor young men across the world to the meat grinder to fight for them.

Same in this situation. All these campaigns about "remember to turn off your lights when you leave the room!" (I do do this anyway, by the way) isn't going to stop global warming. It's a means of politicians to shift responsibility on to the people whose fault it isn't so they can feel that as politicians they're being responsible, whilst we the people think we're helping. But such token gestures don't help. And won't. What would help is actually outright banning fossil fuels and moving to clean energy. And to do that within the next decade.

Go after the big fish. We're all little fish and in the same boat.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Buelligan on November 24, 2018, 09:48:21 AM
IMO, it's not about blame, blame is not an end in itself.  It's about change and moving towards change (with all speed, for that's what's needed) means thinking about what's happening and making choices to change.  We can wait for the high-ups to change if we want or we can make them change by changing the society in which they operate. 

Imagine what might have happened if society, in Europe, had changed and said to itself, I don't think war is a good idea, in the beginning of the last century, off you go dear Kaiser, dear Tsar, off you go Haig and Kitchener, make war yourselves and on your own if you want, we're staying home today.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: MoonDust on November 24, 2018, 09:52:16 AM
IMO, it's not about blame, blame is not an end in itself.  It's about change and moving towards change (with all speed, for that's what's needed) means thinking about what's happening and making choices to change.  We can wait for the high-ups to change if we want or we can make them change by changing the society in which they operate. 

Imagine what might have happened if society, in Europe, had changed and said to itself, I don't think war is a good idea, in the beginning of the last century, off you go dear Kaiser, dear Tsar, off you go Haig and Kitchener, make war yourselves, we're staying home today.

I definitely agree with making the higher ups change.

And as a bit of pedantry on your last point. That did happen. A revolution in Russia - over the war - got Russia out of it. And a year later a revolution in Germany that deposed the Kaiser brought an end to the war for everyone.

Germany surrendered not because of military inferiority. It surrendered because the German people themselves were sick to death of it and turned their guns on their own leaders instead.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: MoonDust on November 24, 2018, 10:06:37 AM
Bit of a sidetrack sorry. I'm just pointing out that people's collective consciousness can and does change, which can lead to a complete overturn and change in society.

That fact alone gives me hope that perhaps we can save ourselves and do all these things we're saying we should be doing.

We're not there yet of course, but I do have hope.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sin Agog on November 24, 2018, 12:23:12 PM
Bit of a sidetrack sorry. I'm just pointing out that people's collective consciousness can and does change, which can lead to a complete overturn and change in society.

That fact alone gives me hope that perhaps we can save ourselves and do all these things we're saying we should be doing.

We're not there yet of course, but I do have hope.

I was talking to my mum about personal environmental responsibility recently, and she started spouting some nebulous shit about 'the scientists fault.' Environmentalism has got to kick the door down and storm its way into people's homes.  It's come at a weird time when ease and comfort is a bigger selling point than ever, with people talking into little round speakers to switch on the oven for them, but it's possible.  That paying for plastic bags thing got people all het-up in anticipation of it, but then we got over it almost instantly.  People's adaptability is one of the reason's why we fucked over all the other genuses of homos knocking about tens of thousands of years ago.  Maybe it does require government mandates as we're too feckless to just suddenly make the change ourselves, but sacrificing a few comforts will be a doddle once we've actually done it.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Dex Sawash on November 24, 2018, 12:35:40 PM
Would europe be far more congested/polluted/sprawly without the last 2 big wars?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Blumf on November 24, 2018, 01:27:14 PM
Would europe be far more congested/polluted/sprawly without the last 2 big wars?

And the 1914 flu pandemic.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gout_pony on November 24, 2018, 07:13:50 PM
Now pissed off Jim Davidson and The Spectator so they're/we're definitely on to something good:
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/extinction-rebellion-is-a-wannabe-marxist-revolution-in-disguise/ (https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/extinction-rebellion-is-a-wannabe-marxist-revolution-in-disguise/)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Autopsy Turvey on November 24, 2018, 07:20:41 PM
Would europe be far more congested/polluted/sprawly without the last 2 big wars?

Possibly we'd have found solutions sooner without the loss of the manpower and talent of two generations of the world's best men.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: garnish on November 24, 2018, 07:27:52 PM
Possibly we'd have found solutions sooner without the loss of the manpower and talent of two generations of the world's best men.

I think the opposite - it took the destruction of two global wars in order to shake up the existing political order of entrenched elites to create an opening for the kind of social democracy that we had in Western Europe.  I think without the wars, we'd have got to this climate change position more quickly because capitalism would have continued apace without interruption.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sin Agog on November 24, 2018, 07:50:52 PM
I heard that, immediately after WWII, various magnates got together and decided to strip power of ideology once and for all, as that lethal combination gave us you know who.  But the accelerated Free Market which came in its wake was a gaping maw which has lit up the earth's resources like an incense stick, and we consumers have copied its essence, no longer having religion or higher powers or much of anything other than temporary diversion to occupy our thoughts, we each opted to become teeth in the big chewing mouth instead.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: manticore on November 25, 2018, 01:00:57 AM
I think the opposite - it took the destruction of two global wars in order to shake up the existing political order of entrenched elites to create an opening for the kind of social democracy that we had in Western Europe.  I think without the wars, we'd have got to this climate change position more quickly because capitalism would have continued apace without interruption.

I can't believe the post-war entrenchment of Fordist capitalism and industrialised agriculture retarded the progress of climate change, or almost any kind of environmental destruction for that matter (not that I've actually checked).

Not a well-known fact - Murray Bookchin wrote about climate change in 1965. He had also written about all sorts of environmental disasters just before Silent Spring was published, and in more depth and range, but hardly anyone took much notice of him compared to Rachel Carson, because he was an anarchist and blamed the whole social and economic system, which the world wasn't ready to hear in 1962.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Fambo Number Mive on November 26, 2018, 08:57:42 AM
Sorry to go back to car usage, but I was wondering if campaigning for a London style congestion charge to be brought in in cities across the UK would get many people out of their cars. It might encourage councils to improve public transport as well.

I also think that there should be a prominent ranking of every city and town in the UK by car usage and how easy it is to walk/cycle/take public transport there.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Paul Calf on November 26, 2018, 09:26:24 AM
I think the congestion charge is something that should be considered for other towns, but it's worth bearing in mind that it was a success in London because it was co-ordinated with improvements to an already excellent public transport network and there was a specific goal of speeding up bus travel.

It's hard to trust that other local authorities wouldn't just see it as a cash grab, and make matters worse.

Plus, if you drive to work in Glasgow, Leeds or Manchester I can't see how having to shell out a tenner is going to be any more of a disincentive than the urban planning of those cities already present.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: phes on November 26, 2018, 09:47:26 AM
Introducing a congestion charge in the same format wouldn't work now anyway, and the London one is arguably not working as well as it should anymore. Mainly because of the enormous surge in the private and commercial fleet (Uber and delivery vehicles). Presumably a more responsive pricing would be introduced linked to time and distance. I guess we'd also be looking - If we don't already - at levvies for companies providing parking. Whether they would actually have an initiative to pass on relief to people who travel via PT is another matter. Maybe it would just go to the consumer
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gout_pony on November 30, 2018, 12:43:50 PM
Pissing off Nigel Farage *and* Jim Davidson... ^^

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1048566/London-protests-climate-change-Extinction-Rebellion-Nigel-Farage-LBC-Jim-Davidson?fbclid=IwAR3Y4dcNEhworAGpVMLh5p7cikxKvMhenN49y7wozxw45AO-S5-rJ5Py5K8 (https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1048566/London-protests-climate-change-Extinction-Rebellion-Nigel-Farage-LBC-Jim-Davidson?fbclid=IwAR3Y4dcNEhworAGpVMLh5p7cikxKvMhenN49y7wozxw45AO-S5-rJ5Py5K8)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gout_pony on December 01, 2018, 10:45:42 PM
How are others' Boomer parents on climate change and other eco-issues? My parents are both very down on me being involved in Extinction Revolution at all, frankly. My dad seems very sceptical that there's been a decline in eco-diversity. My appeal to memories of previous insectoid plenitude were dismissed (I swear I remember seeing stag beetles almost every time I went for a walk in our village in summer and buddleia bushes teeming with butterflies, but he seems to reckon it's the same as it ever was). My mum was also cynical about the school kids in Australia going "on strike" in protest again climate change. That said, they've always been sniffy about my vegetarianism and are outright antagonistic sometimes about my attempts to go vegan.

Presumably some of you with Boomer parents have parents who were hippies as teens/ in their 20s and never shed their Gaia-loving ways?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: manticore on December 05, 2018, 01:02:02 AM
How are others' Boomer parents on climate change and other eco-issues? My parents are both very down on me being involved in Extinction Revolution at all, frankly. My dad seems very sceptical that there's been a decline in eco-diversity. My appeal to memories of previous insectoid plenitude were dismissed (I swear I remember seeing stag beetles almost every time I went for a walk in our village in summer and buddleia bushes teeming with butterflies, but he seems to reckon it's the same as it ever was). My mum was also cynical about the school kids in Australia going "on strike" in protest again climate change. That said, they've always been sniffy about my vegetarianism and are outright antagonistic sometimes about my attempts to go vegan.

Presumably some of you with Boomer parents have parents who were hippies as teens/ in their 20s and never shed their Gaia-loving ways?

I'm a late boomer and I support Extinction Rebellion. Us late boomers are more likely to have been punkish than hippy, and from this fascinating little Guardian video it appears that a lot the leaders may be about my age. I like the whole vibe of the thing - it looks well organised and well thought out.

Stongly recommend this - it gives an interesting picture of what they're doing, though gout_pony might be able to say how accurate he thinks it is, he being the man on the ground:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAH3IQwHKag (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAH3IQwHKag)

More recent sit down protest in Norwich:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-46439210 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-46439210)

This thread is going to go on getting bumped.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Twit 2 on December 05, 2018, 07:13:47 AM
How are others' Boomer parents on climate change and other eco-issues? My parents are both very down on me being involved in Extinction Revolution at all, frankly. My dad seems very sceptical that there's been a decline in eco-diversity. My appeal to memories of previous insectoid plenitude were dismissed (I swear I remember seeing stag beetles almost every time I went for a walk in our village in summer and buddleia bushes teeming with butterflies, but he seems to reckon it's the same as it ever was). My mum was also cynical about the school kids in Australia going "on strike" in protest again climate change. That said, they've always been sniffy about my vegetarianism and are outright antagonistic sometimes about my attempts to go vegan.

Presumably some of you with Boomer parents have parents who were hippies as teens/ in their 20s and never shed their Gaia-loving ways?

I’m sure you don’t want to argue with your dad, but it’s pretty risible to say ‘there is the same amount of animals there ever was’ when the data on this is so available and so shocking. Or you can go for a walk and open your eyes, like you did. You could buy him a copy of Michael McCarthy’s The Moth Snowstorm, which would certainly open his eyes. Just say it’s a beautiful book on nature, which it also is.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Paul Calf on December 05, 2018, 08:10:59 AM
Ask him why he never has to clean dead insects from his windscreen the way everyone used to have to do after a night drive.

Windscreens and headlights used to become sludgy with insect carcasses and some time in the 1990s they declined massively. Now, even after a summer night drive through a rural area, screens are usually completely clear.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Twit 2 on December 05, 2018, 06:07:46 PM
Heh, that’s the exact starting premise and title of the book I mentioned. Can’t recommend it enough, it’s as profound and moving as it is bracing.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sebastian Cobb on December 05, 2018, 06:32:49 PM
It's hard to trust that other local authorities wouldn't just see it as a cash grab, and make matters worse.

That's how it has always worked in my experience with residents parking schemes or legislating how many spaces new offices are allowed (although greed of developers does that in as well). Aberdeen even started removing free parking spaces in their parks, on the edge of town to get people to cough up for the park and ride, also on the edge of town. People obviously just parked on the road.

Another classic is to put on buses that can only be caught from the town centre, you know, the bit it's already impossible to park in without paying massively?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gout_pony on December 05, 2018, 06:46:13 PM
I’m sure you don’t want to argue with your dad, but it’s pretty risible to say ‘there is the same amount of animals there ever was’ when the data on this is so available and so shocking. Or you can go for a walk and open your eyes, like you did. You could buy him a copy of Michael McCarthy’s The Moth Snowstorm, which would certainly open his eyes. Just say it’s a beautiful book on nature, which it also is.

I might actually do that as he's a keen reader and generally likes non-fiction science writing so once he sees it's not just my own anecdotal reflections he likely will be swayed - thanks kindly for the suggestion! :)

manticore, I don't want to unduly give the impression I'm in the thick of things - though, from the London protest it is fair to say, thinking about it, that there were rather a lot of (maybe mostly late) Boomers and certainly a great deal of Generation Xers! It wasn't all Millennials and younger by any means!
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gout_pony on December 05, 2018, 06:47:03 PM
I’m sure you don’t want to argue with your dad, but it’s pretty risible to say ‘there is the same amount of animals there ever was’ when the data on this is so available and so shocking.

haha to be fair he probably just couldn't be bothered discussing it with me! :p
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Noonling on December 20, 2018, 07:21:51 PM
They're focusing on the BBC tomorrow:
https://rebellion.earth/events/

Quote from: from email
ONSITE AT BBC BROADCASTING HOUSE, PORTLAND PLACE

BEATING OF THE BOUNDS

The beating of the bounds is an ancient ritual performed to pray for protection.

We will be creating a humdrum of noise around the BBC building (drums, voices etc.) so our message cannot be ignored - it will soon be too late to act to prevent climate and ecological disaster - they must listen, and act with us, now.

LIGHTING OF THE CANDLES IN THE XR SYMBOL

LIGHT symbolises TRUTH

We are forming the XR symbol in candles outside the BBC building, to call upon our Public Service Broadcaster to convey the truth of the severity of the climate and ecological emergency we are experiencing, and the urgent action needed to address this.

Also at BBC places in Cambridge, Bristol, Glasgow, Manchester, Berlin and Birmingham...

Online/phone stuff planned as well.

Quote from: Bristol facebook group
Hi all, I don't know what's planned for tomorrow in terms of carols but here is one we could sing:
Oh BBC Oh BBC
[to the tune of God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen]

Oh BBC, Oh BBC
You cause us much dismay
You are not covering climate
in an appropriate way.
This is a real emergency
So please wake up, we pray
Oh tidings of rebellion today - today
Oh tidings of rebellion today.

Only twelve years to us remain
To turn this thing around
So sayeth all the scientists
And their advice is sound
So please wake up while there’s still time
You have the power to sway,
Oh tidings of rebellion today - today
Oh tidings of rebellion today.

Oh BBC, Oh BBC
Please hear us when we say
You are not covering climate
in an appropriate way.
So please wake up and realise
the harm you do this way
Oh tidings of rebellion today - today
Oh tidings of rebellion today.

Oh BBC, Oh BBC
You cause us much dismay
You are not covering climate
in an appropriate way.
Please wake up now and get a grip
You have the power to sway
Oh tidings of rebellion today - today
Oh tidings of rebellion today.

Quote
Silent night, smoky night,
coal fired power, coal fired light.
Governments have failed us now.
Politicians, they don’t know how.
Still coal exports go on, still coal exports go on.

Smoky night, humming night.
Farmers quake at the sight.
Prime farm land acquired to mine.
All to earn those bigwigs a dime.
End of coal is now nigh, end of coal is now nigh.

Silent night, dusty night.
Coal is bad, coal is trite.
Black rocks causing climate change,
seas to rise and storms to rage.
Time for us to act now, time for us to act now.

Maybe the syllables don't quite fit, but I appreciate the effort. Alas I'll be at work.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: KennyMonster on December 20, 2018, 09:53:28 PM
Have these fellas been busy near Gatwick today?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: manticore on December 20, 2018, 10:26:35 PM
They're focusing on the BBC tomorrow:
https://rebellion.earth/events/

Also at BBC places in Cambridge, Bristol, Glasgow, Manchester, Berlin and Birmingham...

Online/phone stuff planned as well.

The online/phone stuff for tomorrow (Friday):

CAN'T MAKE THE ACTION TOMORROW?

WANT TO HELP CAUSE SOME DISRUPTION?

We are going to jam the BBC phone lines (phone numbers below) all day with calls about the climate emergency until it sinks in! Let the operator that you think the BBC needs to do more to cover the climate emergency and read out our demands (below)

Pick up the phone and help us out

BBC Contacts

Complaints Form : https://ssl.bbc.co.uk/faqs/forms (https://ssl.bbc.co.uk/faqs/forms)

Comments Phone Number: 03704 101060

Complaints: 03700 100 222
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: stunted on December 20, 2018, 11:51:22 PM
Yougov came to my flat to pole me recently and on the question of "what issue concerns you most today" out of about 30 options climate change wasn't one. "Pollution" was closest.

Haven't read the whole thread but on the subject of famine has it been mentioned that the food we're eating is becoming less and less nutritious and we're all becoming sicker for it? The nutrient content on packaging is decades out of date. Apparently nuts contain next to no selenium now.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/soil-depletion-and-nutrition-loss/
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gout_pony on December 21, 2018, 12:45:05 AM
The online/phone stuff for tomorrow (Friday):

CAN'T MAKE THE ACTION TOMORROW?

WANT TO HELP CAUSE SOME DISRUPTION?

We are going to jam the BBC phone lines (phone numbers below) all day with calls about the climate emergency until it sinks in! Let the operator that you think the BBC needs to do more to cover the climate emergency and read out our demands (below)

Pick up the phone and help us out

BBC Contacts

Complaints Form : https://ssl.bbc.co.uk/faqs/forms (https://ssl.bbc.co.uk/faqs/forms)

Comments Phone Number: 03704 101060

Complaints: 03700 100 222

Thank you for this! I'm sure a whole bunch of us can spare 5 mins to do this once at least!
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gout_pony on December 21, 2018, 12:35:35 PM
Filling out an online complaints form is easy and satisfying - you feel like a gentleman of a certain age writing in to The Telegraph. I'd highly recommend it. DO IT NOW YA LOVELY SHLUBS!
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: manticore on December 21, 2018, 02:02:48 PM
More from Extinction Rebellion about what you can do today:

CAN’T MAKE THE ACTION TODAY? YOU CAN HELP US FROM WHEREVER YOU ARE!

PICK UP THE PHONE/SEND A LETTER TO THE BBC *TODAY*
CALL UPON THE BBC TO TELL THE TRUTH ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE

The BBC has failed to cover the severity of the issue of climate change for many years, and we need your help to rally them to their duty as a public service broadcaster. We need them to use their broadcasting power to lead worldwide media to fight climate change.


(1) BY PHONE

We are going to bombard the BBC phone lines (phone numbers below) all day about the climate emergency until it sinks in! Let the operator know that you think the BBC needs to do more to cover the climate emergency and read out our requests.

Here are the requests: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/dec/16/bbc-has-a-key-role-in-tackling-the-climate-emergency (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/dec/16/bbc-has-a-key-role-in-tackling-the-climate-emergency)

Pick up the phone and help us out:

BBC Contacts

Complaints Form: https://ssl.bbc.co.uk/faqs/forms

Comments Phone Number: 03704 101060

Complaints: 03700 100 222

   

(2) BY EMAIL

Fill the BBC’s email boxes with complaints (sample email below).

Write how you feel about the lack of coverage of the climate emergency.

Send to any/all of the below:
BBC Head Office Complaints Team
ECU@bbc.co.uk

Any @bbc.co.uk email address - programmes, broadcasters...

Some examples;
today@bbc.co.uk
feedback@bbc.co.uk
saturdaylive@bbc.co.uk
[insert name of broadcaster.lastname]@bbc.co.uk
You can also log a complaint online: http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/complain-online/


Sample email:

Dear (BBC/Programme Name/Presenter)

I am contacting you to express my concern that the BBC is failing to give the Climate Emergency we find ourselves in the urgent attention it warrants.

The BBC’s mission statement says that it is the Corporation’s duty to inform and educate. Yet the BBC is failing in this duty in its reporting of the seriousness of the situation we are in and on the unprecedented action our governments need to take in order to prevent the destruction of life on earth as we know it. Many solutions exist, these need to be the centre of an urgent public debate on the best way forward for all life on earth.

On 13 December the UN Secretary General said that our failure to tackle warming was ’suicidal’.

The BBC’s guidelines state, 'Man-made climate change exists: If the science proves it we should report it. The BBC accepts that the best science on the issue is the IPCC’s position’”

The IPCC’s position is that we must limit global warming to 1.5°C and that we are currently on course to the world heating up by 3°C. The IPCC have said that we have a window of just 12 years to significantly reduce our carbon and other greenhouse gas emissions to avert a major human and ecological catastrophe.

On 11 September, Antonio Guterres UN Secretary-General, said,

“If we do not change course by 2020, we risk missing the point where we can avoid runaway climate change, with disastrous consequences for people and all the natural systems that sustain us,” (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/sep/11/fossil-fuel-dependence-poses-direct-existential-threat-warns-un-chief)


On 20 August, Professor Han Joachim Schellnhuber

(Head of Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research and Senior Advisor to Pope Francis and Angela Merkel and the EU) said that, “Climate change is now reaching the end-game, where very soon humanity must choose between taking unprecedented action, or accepting that it has been left too late and bear the consequences.” (https://www.climatecodered.org/2018/08/take-unprecedented-action-or-bear.html?m=1)

The BBC must lead from the front on the climate emergency - I stand in solidarity with Extinction Rebellion and therefore request:

1. The BBC Director General Tony Hall agree to a meeting with a delegation from Extinction Rebellion to discuss how the corporation can meet its crucial moral duty to tell the full truth on the climate and ecological emergency.

2. The BBC declare a climate and ecological emergency - we need to act now, the extinction of the natural world is happening and we face the collapse of our civilisations.

3. The BBC place the climate and ecological emergency as its top editorial and corporate priority - integrated into all of aspects of the BBC’s output, not just environmental sections - by adoption of a climate emergency strategic plan, at the level of urgency the corporation placed on informing the public about World War 2.

4. The BBC to divest all pension funds, investments and bank accounts from fossil fuel corporations and their bankers.

5. The BBC, its subsidiaries and its supply chain to agree to be zero-carbon by 2025.

6. The BBC to publish an annual eco-audit of all BBC operations, including summary of key ecological and carbon data.

7. The BBC to take a lead on encouraging other national & global media corporations to join the global efforts to save humanity / nature from existential crises.

8. The BBC to only allow think-tank spokespersons or lobbyists on-air to discuss the climate and ecological emergency whose funding is fully transparent.

Yours sincerely

(Your name and address)

SOME EXAMPLES OF THE BBC IGNORING/NOT COVERING THE SEVERITY OF CLIMATE CHANGE

    The BBC refused to cover reports on the UN Security Council special conference on climate change in July 2018. Dire warnings were given about the security implications of mass migration caused by climate change.

    In September, the UN Secretary General appealed to news o utlets to cover his upcoming speech on climate change and on 10 September he then delivered it, warning that we now face "a direct existential threat" and warned of "runaway climate change". The BBC refused to cover that on TV or radio news.

    Following a string of stinging complaints, the BBC has given ground and promised to improve its coverage of news but it still refuses to allow the public to hear the really frightening material in connection with the various climate feedbacks and tipping points.

    Many campaigners fear the BBC has a policy of not frightening the public but we need to stop the censorship if people are to realise the seriousness of the situation and call for dynamic action to prevent catastrophe


Let's help get the BBC on the right side of history!


Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: manticore on December 21, 2018, 02:17:29 PM
I called the BBC coments line on 03704 101060 and talked biefly to a nice woman who was obviously prepared for what I was going to ask, that -

The BBC declares a climate and ecological emergency.

She will refer it on.

Try it, it's all perfectly civilised, no one gets hurt!

Edit: Okay - four emails (using sample email in previous post), a phone call and an online complaint.

It's all good fun, try it people!
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: metaltax on December 21, 2018, 03:06:56 PM
Neither the complaints form nor the phone number go directly to the BBC. It’s all vetted by Capita before it gets anywhere near a Beeb employee.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: manticore on December 21, 2018, 03:33:16 PM
That's true, but I don't see how it should have any effect on what we do. If at least some of the complaints somehow get through, they get through.

The BBC says:

"We’ll normally include the text below in our overnight report to producers and management of all the complaints and other reaction we receive today (with your personal details removed). This means it will reach the right people by tomorrow morning."

From their replies, it doesn't seem as if they're completely unresponsive to me. I say flood them!
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Paul Calf on December 21, 2018, 03:48:07 PM
Yougov came to my flat to pole me recently

/me wanks
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: metaltax on December 21, 2018, 05:06:56 PM
From their replies, it doesn't seem as if they're completely unresponsive to me. I say flood them!

Well no, but the text you posted further up talks about jamming their phones, flooding them with emails etc. My point was just that you can do that all you like but the volume will have no effect on BBC people’s ability to do their job. I guess it only matters if you’re trying to cause trouble. If you’re just trying to provide genuine feedback then no harm.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: manticore on December 21, 2018, 05:36:04 PM
Well no, but the text you posted further up talks about jamming their phones, flooding them with emails etc. My point was just that you can do that all you like but the volume will have no effect on BBC people’s ability to do their job. I guess it only matters if you’re trying to cause trouble. If you’re just trying to provide genuine feedback then no harm.

That's a pretty marginal issue. The essential idea is to flood the BBC with messages that will get through to them, even if via Capita, trying to get them to change their policies. If anyone doesn't want to take part in that, fine, but the outsourcing thing isn't convincing as a reason for them not to try.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gout_pony on December 21, 2018, 07:30:04 PM
I called the BBC coments line on 03704 101060 and talked biefly to a nice woman who was obviously prepared for what I was going to ask, that -

The BBC declares a climate and ecological emergency.

She will refer it on.

Try it, it's all perfectly civilised, no one gets hurt!

Edit: Okay - four emails (using sample email in previous post), a phone call and an online complaint.

It's all good fun, try it people!

I will agree the woman I spoke to was very polite!
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Twit 2 on December 23, 2018, 01:45:55 AM
All of this is another reason to be annoyed with the baby boomers. We will probably pass the point of no return in the next ten years or so. The last thing these get-a-mortgage-by-farting-at-some-bricks-then-have-three-kids-and-regular-holidays-off-one-income-before-retiring-at-a-sensible-age-and-becoming-a-property-millionaire cunts will do is die just before it all goes tits up.

My dad, when I mentioned Extinction Rebellion: “What’s that?”

Grave.

My father in law, when I asked him about that Brexit: “Just a load of scaremongering; it’ll all be fine.”

Grave.

Mother/mother in law: no opinions, because the men have those.

Graves.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gout_pony on December 23, 2018, 03:03:57 PM
Yes - I wrote a little story about that...

Once upon a time in the West there was a generation of humans who both perpetrated and overcame what many later referred to the greatest human atrocity of all time. Their children lived the happiest lives in all of recorded human history and, in so doing, brought themselves and the rest of the human race to extinction. The end.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: manticore on December 23, 2018, 05:20:01 PM
Yes - I wrote a little story about that...

Once upon a time in the West there was a generation of humans who both perpetrated and overcame what many later referred to the greatest human atrocity of all time. Their children lived the happiest lives in all of recorded human history and, in so doing, brought themselves and the rest of the human race to extinction. The end.

Now I'm triggered!

Climate change began in the C19th. Global warming and species extinction are the ultimate results of the capitalist industrial revolution and short of the 'baby boomers' of the west creating a social revolution the progress of both was inevitable.

It was some of the 'baby boomers' who stood up in the '60s and '70s against late capitalism and started the modern ecological movement of which Extinction Rebellion is the latest manifestation, and from what I can see many of its leaders are 'boomers'. 'Boomers' started movements with crazy names like 'gay liberation' and 'women's liberation'.

This generation war crap is just lazy. How have the succeeding cohorts with their apathetic neoliberalism-addled minds been an improvement on the mass of deluded 'boomer' idiots?

Tl:dr We all suck!
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Twit 2 on December 23, 2018, 06:06:32 PM
I didn’t mean the boomers caused anything, just that they are lucky to have existed in the timeframe they have.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gout_pony on December 23, 2018, 06:40:56 PM
Now I'm triggered!

Climate change began in the C19th. Global warming and species extinction are the ultimate results of the capitalist industrial revolution and short of the 'baby boomers' of the west creating a social revolution the progress of both was inevitable.

It was some of the 'baby boomers' who stood up in the '60s and '70s against late capitalism and started the modern ecological movement of which Extinction Rebellion is the latest manifestation, and from what I can see many of its leaders are 'boomers'. 'Boomers' started movements with crazy names like 'gay liberation' and 'women's liberation'.

This generation war crap is just lazy. How have the succeeding cohorts with their apathetic neoliberalism-addled minds been an improvement on the mass of deluded 'boomer' idiots?

Tl:dr We all suck!

Well it *was* a parable/ fairytale so it wasn't really going in for nuance.

That said, I have just read...

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51PosRzrFAL._SX329_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/30841993-a-generation-of-sociopaths (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/30841993-a-generation-of-sociopaths)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gout_pony on December 23, 2018, 06:47:22 PM
It was written by a pretty smug seeming venture capitalist though so I took some portions with a pinch of salt! He does, however, come down esp. hard when it comes to the Boomers' track record on environmentalism, arguing that it was only under Boomer presidencies that environmentalist became a truly partisan issue, pointing out, for instance, Theodore Roosevelt's founding of much of the nation's national parks.

This quietly furious article places the matter half-a-generation earlier tho:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/08/01/magazine/climate-change-losing-earth.html (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/08/01/magazine/climate-change-losing-earth.html)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on December 23, 2018, 07:10:42 PM
All of this is another reason to be annoyed with the baby boomers. We will probably pass the point of no return in the next ten years or so. The last thing these get-a-mortgage-by-farting-at-some-bricks-then-have-three-kids-and-regular-holidays-off-one-income-before-retiring-at-a-sensible-age-and-becoming-a-property-millionaire cunts will do is die just before it all goes tits up.

My dad, when I mentioned Extinction Rebellion: “What’s that?”

Grave.

My father in law, when I asked him about that Brexit: “Just a load of scaremongering; it’ll all be fine.”

Grave.

Mother/mother in law: no opinions, because the men have those.

Graves.

Meanwhile, my mum, a supposed socialist says she's worried about Brexit and her desire is for things to be calm and stable.

I had to remind her the hundreds of thousands of people sleeping rough, the mountain of debt people are propped up on and even this fantasy being maintained only by stripmining state assets, printing fiat money and keeping interest rates artificially low. That's not even getting into the exploitation of the planet and the military industry.

I told her things are not stable, that we are on a collision course with disaster regardless of what happens with Brexit with millions suffering along the way.

What she meant was she didn't want things to change for her. So long as things appear calm on their horizons, even if its surface superficiality these people don't care.

Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gout_pony on December 23, 2018, 08:07:41 PM
Meanwhile, my mum, a supposed socialist says she's worried about Brexit and her desire is for things to be calm and stable.

I had to remind her the hundreds of thousands of people sleeping rough, the mountain of debt people are propped up on and even this fantasy being maintained only by stripmining state assets, printing fiat money and keeping interest rates artificially low. That's not even getting into the exploitation of the planet and the military industry.

I told her things are not stable, that we are on a collision course with disaster regardless of what happens with Brexit with millions suffering along the way.

What she meant was she didn't want things to change for her. So long as things appear calm on their horizons, even if its surface superficiality these people don't care.

I love my parents but that last sentence is a pretty decent summation of their position too, sadly :(
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: manticore on December 23, 2018, 08:42:33 PM
It was written by a pretty smug seeming venture capitalist though so I took some portions with a pinch of salt! He does, however, come down esp. hard when it comes to the Boomers' track record on environmentalism, arguing that it was only under Boomer presidencies that environmentalist became a truly partisan issue, pointing out, for instance, Theodore Roosevelt's founding of much of the nation's national parks.

Okay, on the first page of that goodreads page there's a review of that book that, though i wouldn't endorse it completely,  encapsulates quite a few of the reasons why I woudn't give a piece of bullshit ideological moralistic culture criticism like that the time of day:

If you are going to read this book, something you have to keep in mind is that the author is an extremely wealthy and successful investment banker and venture capitalist. Throughout the book, he fails to see that what has actually caused the problems in America that he points to in the data such as the decrease in savings rate, increase in cost for college, failure to address environment change, and discrediting of science are people exactly like himself.

He uses broad generalizations about cherry-picked quotes from a single book on psychology to support random points, basically saying that anyone who exhibits any of these behaviors to any extent must be a "sociopath". He depicts young people's desire to avoid going to war in Vietnam as a selfish thing, as though wishing not to be in the military for a war you didn't sign up for somehow makes you a bad person. I should go ahead and just keep my mouth shut, even if I don't want to be there? Why should someone else determine for me that I might go die in a war they're not fighting in themselves, especially one more about politics than any real safety concern for my country? It is human nature, not just the nature of one generation, to wish to live freely, make choices about whether or not to be sent off to potentially die, and to protest when it affects you personally.

He depicts sexual promiscuity and the use of illegal drugs as "sociopathic" behavior - surely just because this can be a symptom of sociopathy doesn't mean that every single person who engages in this behavior is a sociopath. He even states himself that he holds more "conservative" values on this front - did you ever consider this may affect your views on that behavior?

People engaging in promiscuous sex and using LSD might conflict with your own personal values, that's your decision. However, those actions didn't cause or even predict the issues with our country today, and to draw some kind of line between that and calling every person who engaged in that behavior a sociopath is insane. There were plenty of cultural influences going on that created those movements beyond just being a selfish sociopath as the author likes to think. Funny, considering the author talks about a resistance to living in reality and fact as a quality of sociopaths. He sounds exactly like what he is, a conservative, old, Christian white man blaming Hippies just because he doesn't like them.

Overall, I do believe that our country has declined in many areas since the 1970s, but I don't think it's the fault of an entire group of normal people responding to the culture and society they find themselves in. The real creators of this reality are the extremely wealthy (like our author), who make up the majority of lawmakers and the ones who make decisions such as cutting tax rates, going to war, and whether or not to support and subsidize education. The average person can only look at this reality and decide how to make the best of it for themselves and their families, and it's unfair to characterize the rise of the influence of the wealthy as the decisions of an entire generation. The contribution of the average person was in deciding who to vote for, this is true.

However, when you look at the world today, corporations and the wealthy have an even more extreme amount of influence than they ever have. This is the real trend line we should be looking at as we look for who to blame for where we find ourselves today.

One last note, I am not a Baby Boomer. I am a Millennial, and I think this is the rantings of a wealthy person trying to spread the blame onto everyone instead of those like himself. I have so much more I could say about this book, but overall it sounds like blatant bullshit from a conservative man who wants to blame more open sexuality and liberal values instead of the few who actually caused the problems.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gout_pony on December 23, 2018, 09:33:34 PM
On Vietnam he provides data which suggests that Boomer resistance to being drafted was not primarily due to pacifism since surveying from the time suggests that they were the age bracket most likely to be in support of the war. His main argument however is that, as a generalisation, Boomer interest in the war sharply fell away once they were no longer at risk of being drafted.

Quote
What establishes the Boomers as a political generation is that the Boomers' overriding political ambitions have been defined not in conventional terms like race or gender, but by age or life cycle [...] The Vietnam draft was, obviously, age based, as were the domestic responses, like lower thresholds for voting and drinking. And Boomer (and thus American) politics will continue to be driven by life cycle, with the Boomers' desire to maintain old-age benefits over-riding all over political concerns.

In terms of sheer voting numbers, it is inarguable that Boomers have had a significant influence upon who has gotten elected over the last few decades. Boomers also controlled congress by the early 1990s.

With regards to DSM classifications - if one believes that they provide a useful diagnostic framework, they are what they are. Gibney didn't invent them. The reviewer is wilfully representing Gibney's argument and the way in which the DSM operates. Clearly one symptom (such as drug experimentation) does not on its own indicate someone is a sociopath, but may do as part of a broader diagnostic picture, according to the DSM. Likewise, I do not believe that Gibney is saying that literally every Baby Boomer is a sociopath, but that as a generation American Boomers' behaviours, opinions and policies conform to many of the DSM's criteria. It's mainly a structural framework.

Personally speaking, the opening chapters on drugs and hedonism had little to no moral interest to me. Where I found the book convincing was when it came to Boomer finances and the taxation policies the generation has supported, which Gibney convincingly demonstrates have been enormously self-serving.

While the reviewer argues that blame for social-political immoralities of the 1970s to the present should be placed squarely on the heads of a tiny percentage of "the creators of this reality" it strikes me as a very Adam Curtisy history from above approach, compared to what Gibney is doing, which is in the tradition of the Howe/Strauss theory of generations and so rather more bottom-up.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gout_pony on December 23, 2018, 09:42:06 PM
All that said (i.e. I think the book was convincing on economic points) obviously no individual is automatically a sociopath by virtue of being an American Baby Boomer.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gout_pony on December 23, 2018, 10:42:20 PM
The more I reflect on it, the more I think you have a point though manticore :P

I mean... the guy //does// seem like kind of a dick!
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: manticore on December 23, 2018, 11:59:38 PM
On Vietnam he provides data which suggests that Boomer resistance to being drafted was not primarily due to pacifism since surveying from the time suggests that they were the age bracket most likely to be in support of the war. His main argument however is that, as a generalisation, Boomer interest in the war sharply fell away once they were no longer at risk of being drafted.

Well he can tell that to the kids who had their heads broken by police on anti-war protests, or who were mowed down at Kent State. If you look into the history of the anti-war movement and you see an overwhelming moral revulsion and a consciousness of the evils done in the interests of US imperialism. Is he really suggesting that most those young anti-war activists were doing it out of simple fear of the draft? Most of the new left protesters also made links between Vietnam and the movement for black people's rights at home, the military-industrial complex, technological rationality and commodity capitalism.

There were obviously a mass of flaws in the 60s movements, but it sounds to me as if his critique is mostly full of shit. If he makes the connection between the hippie counterculture, hip capitalism and the lapse into libertarianism then that would be perfectly valid, though that argument's been made a thousand times before.

Quote
In terms of sheer voting numbers, it is inarguable that Boomers have had a significant influence upon who has gotten elected over the last few decades. Boomers also controlled congress by the early 1990s.

Yes, most boomers are liberal or conservative, just like the generations before them. Is he in love with '50s America? If he blames a distict 'boomer' mentality' for the 2008 crash, what does he think caused the 1929 Wall Street Crash? It sounds as if he's doing the usual thing of deflecting from social and economic critique into moralisation, which is just what you'd expect a conservative venture capitalist with a book to sell to do. He's giving a generation of narcissists generated by neoliberalism a new version of 'never trust anyone over thirty', which is pretty ironic when that was one of the things that was wrong with the narcissistic side of of the 60s generation he despises.

Quote
Personally speaking, the opening chapters on drugs and hedonism had little to no moral interest to me. Where I found the book convincing was when it came to Boomer finances and the taxation policies the generation has supported, which Gibney convincingly demonstrates have been enormously self-serving.

Instituted by Reagan and Thatcher and their circle under the guidance of Friedman and Hayek, not bloody boomers. Reagan/Thatcher were even more popular with people born pre-1945 as with 'boomers'. I was a late boomer and hardly anyone I knew voted for Thatcher, we fucking hated the lot of them.

Quote
While the reviewer argues that blame for social-political immoralities of the 1970s to the present should be placed squarely on the heads of a tiny percentage of "the creators of this reality" it strikes me as a very Adam Curtisy history from above approach, compared to what Gibney is doing, which is in the tradition of the Howe/Strauss theory of generations and so rather more bottom-up.

I think the breakdown of the post-war Keynesian consensus needs to be understood in terms of the workings of late capitalism - socially, economically and culturally - rather than some pseudoscientific pop sociology crap about 'generational archetypes' beloved of Steve Bannon. Do you really believe that stuff?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gout_pony on December 24, 2018, 12:04:56 PM
I think the breakdown of the post-war Keynesian consensus needs to be understood in terms of the workings of late capitalism - socially, economically and culturally - rather than some pseudoscientific pop sociology crap about 'generational archetypes' beloved of Steve Bannon. Do you really believe that stuff?

Not in any rigorous sense - I think generations within a given country are broadly going to be influenced by the social conditions under which they grow up. For instance, having 80% of kids growing up with television vs. a tiny percentage of kids of the previous generation would be one of thousands of factors that'd influence a generation.

Also, writing "a generation of narcissists generated by neoliberalism" you're making exactly one of the common-place criticisms of us Millennials that you're decrying Gibney for making against Boomers. The media has been filled for coming up to a decade with think pieces about why Millenials are a uniquely selfish and awful generation, but in general we lean more towards beliefs in community as funded by high rates of taxation than previous generations and have far higher rates of vegetarianism and veganism than previous.

When you belong to the first generation for decades to be all but barred from buying your own property, to have been educated under a New Labour government that insisted that if you studied hard and went to university you'd end up in gainful employment, only to find yourself stuck for years in minimum wage being regularly abused by people older and richer than yourself, being told by parents that there is nothing wrong with the environment, that things are just the same as they ever were, when within your own lifetime (I'm 31) the number of animals in the wild is at 1/3rd of what it was when you were born...

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/15372/production/_90089868_eu_ref_uk_regions_leave_remain_gra624_by_age.png)

(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/174E9/production/_92356459_youngvote_exit_polls_gfx.jpg)

Considering how much the Boomer generation railed against the generation that fought WWII and secured the welfare state (though this is not going to be so true of younger Boomers like yourself, which I think suggests that the demographic grouping is rather too broad) I think it's understandable that there is a lot of Millennial resentment against Boomers after years and years of being constantly told that all our problems are our own fault for being "a generation of narcissists generated by neoliberalism".
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Paul Calf on December 24, 2018, 12:26:31 PM
you do realised that this continued insistence on ignoring the entire generation between Boomers and Millenials is going to bite both generations really hard at some point in the next couple of decades?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gout_pony on December 24, 2018, 12:29:26 PM
you do realised that this continued insistence on ignoring the entire generation between Boomers and Millenials is going to bite both generations really hard at some point in the next couple of decades?

I mean, they gave us the 1990s indie comix boom!
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gout_pony on December 24, 2018, 12:35:42 PM
Anyway, manticore, you're clearly doing more than most vis. a vis. Extinction Rebellion! In my heart of hearts I do believe #notallboomers

And, in fairness, when I read about or watch famous Youtubers and the various Youtuber abuse scandals, I feel rather less keen on being a Millennial...

I might turn to Myers-Briggs instead and rest comfortable in the knowledge that we INFPers have never caused no political or global strife no time.

(https://www.personalityclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/william-shakespeare.jpg)

(https://www.personalityclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/fred-rogers.jpg)

(https://www.personalityclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/hellen-keller.jpg)

(https://www.personalityclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/chris-martin.jpg)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gib on December 24, 2018, 01:59:58 PM
One last note, I am not a Baby Boomer. I am a Millennial, and I think this is the rantings of a wealthy person trying to spread the blame onto everyone instead of those like himself.

I was a late boomer and hardly anyone I knew voted for Thatcher, we fucking hated the lot of them.

Bit confusing.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gout_pony on December 24, 2018, 02:19:57 PM
Bit confusing.

Manicore's long post was a review from Goodreads by a Millennial, whereas he himself is a Boomer (I think!)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: manticore on December 24, 2018, 03:34:02 PM
Quote
Bit confusing.
Manicore's long post was a review from Goodreads by a Millennial, whereas he himself is a Boomer (I think!)

Yes sorry, I should have put quotation marks around that review. (I was born in 1962, which apparently makes me a late 'boomer' according to most people, though 'Generation X' according to others, puke, I've never watched MTV in my life.)

The review is from here:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/30841993-a-generation-of-sociopaths (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/30841993-a-generation-of-sociopaths)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gout_pony on December 24, 2018, 03:56:16 PM
Anyway, I am happy to settle that there are a lot of rum humans in both generations and both are probably pretty narcissistic, as is generally the human condition under late capitalism. Merry Christmas!
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: manticore on December 24, 2018, 05:13:49 PM
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/15372/production/_90089868_eu_ref_uk_regions_leave_remain_gra624_by_age.png)

(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/174E9/production/_92356459_youngvote_exit_polls_gfx.jpg)

Yes, older people tend to be more conservative, and have been since before the 'boomers'. It isn't distinctive to 'boomers'. The previous generation were just as conservative:

"It’s also a mistake to treat such a loose group as “the oldest voters” as a single unit. Research from Pew Research Center has found that baby boomers (those age 50 to 68) are less likely to identify with the label Republican than the uncomfortably titled silent generation (who are age 69 to 86)."

https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2016/sep/23/older-americans-vote-republican-fact-check-election-2016 (https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2016/sep/23/older-americans-vote-republican-fact-check-election-2016)

"The graph below shows the pattern of Conservative support by age-group for five elections from the last 50 years, based on data from the British Election Study. Older people are always more likely to support the Conservatives. For example, when I voted for the first time in the 1997 election, only 23% of people my age (20) voted Conservative. In contrast, 42% of people my grandmother’s age (80) supported the Conservatives. These age-based patterns of political support have been remarkably constant over the post-war period."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/03/do-we-become-more-conservative-with-age-young-old-politics (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/03/do-we-become-more-conservative-with-age-young-old-politics)

Kind of a mixed picture:

(https://screenshotscdn.firefoxusercontent.com/images/2afb492e-ab07-488b-8e00-3cbfd1bcd400.png)

----------------------

Merry Christmas to you too gout_pony!
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gout_pony on December 24, 2018, 05:51:16 PM
Thanks! Let's hope we can get more people involved in climate change related activism across the coming year!
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: manticore on January 04, 2019, 02:09:27 PM
Humbug! The BBC writes back:

"Dear Mr xxxxxxxx

Thank you for contacting us regarding our recent News coverage. We note that you feel that there has been insufficient coverage on the issue of climate change.

To allow us to reply promptly to your concerns, and to ensure we use our Licence fee resources as efficiently as possible, we’re sending this response to everyone. We’re sorry that for this reason we can’t reply personally to you on each point which has been made.

We have extensively covered findings from the IPCC report published in October, and have reported on the key developments from the UN climate talks that have recently taken place in Poland. In addition, over the last month we have reported on a range of wider climate change stories including new NASA data on the melting of Antarctic ice; a report on a reduction in electricity consumption in British homes and a study on the impact of rising global temperatures on summer heatwaves in the UK. We also published a new online calculator to help people understand the carbon footprint of their diet:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-46459714 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-46459714)

To read our latest News on the issue of climate change you may be interested in the following link:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/cmj34zmwm1zt/climate-change (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/cmj34zmwm1zt/climate-change)

The BBC has a proud record of leading the way in sustainability in the media industry and we’ve set out further action including cutting energy use further, eradicating single use plastic and minimising the impact of necessary travel. In the last Charter period, we reduced our carbon footprint by a third. People can also see the clear impact programmes like Blue Planet II and Dynasties have had on public debate about the impact of humankind on the planet.

We can assure you that the BBC is committed to providing fair and impartial coverage of the latest News stories to our audience, and climate change is an issue that the BBC takes very seriously.

Thanks again for taking the time to get in touch.

Kind Regards

BBC Complaints Team
www.bbc.co.uk/complaints"

--------------------------------------------

All self-justification, not a word about how they might be doing things better in the future. Barely addresses any of the points presented in the email.

I gather from the BBC World Service and to a lesser extent from the news website that there has been some improvement in climate change/ecological coverage in the last three months or so, but for example why the hell hasn't there been a major documentary series on climate change or species extinction in a prominent position in their TV schedules?

All I can see is an Attenborough/Humble documentary in 2007 and a  three part series on BBC2 in 2009, which is just pathetic.

At least there's this (though worth reading the comments below):

https://www.carbonbrief.org/exclusive-bbc-one-show-first-primetime-film-climate-change-since-2007 (https://www.carbonbrief.org/exclusive-bbc-one-show-first-primetime-film-climate-change-since-2007)

Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Zetetic on January 05, 2019, 12:27:59 AM
Kind of a mixed picture:

Another, rough, way to look at the same data:
(https://i.imgur.com/fTYhfvB.png)

(Produced by assuming '25 years old' for the 'Under 30 year olds', and then '35 years old', '45 years old' etc. for the subsequent groups up to '75 years old', and then rounding down. It's not a great approach given the way the GE years fall. Probably possible to do it better from the actual BES data.)

To quote some more from that Guardian article:

Quote
By taking the average of seven different groups of several thousand people each over time – covering most periods between general elections since the 1960s – we found that the maximum possible ageing effect averages out at a 0.38% increase in Conservative voters per year. The minimum possible ageing effect was only somewhat lower, at 0.32% per year.

This may not sound like a massive effect, but over the course of a lifetime these increments do add up
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Zetetic on January 05, 2019, 09:44:53 AM
What above also needs is some context of 'identification with' other parties, I guess.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on January 05, 2019, 10:00:17 AM
It helps to be conscious as well that these are not phenomena but tendencies, which can be shaped, suppressed, or accentuated by actions within our power to take.

Aside that, I always feel the "dying out Tories/leavers" thing is an unwarrantedly smug bit of received opinion given it neither factors in our ageing population nor that people do generally veer towards economic status quo + social conservatism as they age. Lots of voters have since died but lots of previous Remainers will have been convinced by Leave. It simply isn't plausible to assume that people have maintained a constant stance throughout their life.

If the 2016 vote had taken place in say, 2022 and for the sake of the experiment we bring the 2016 political situation with us to that year, statistically there would have been a greater vote for Leave, as there would be more not fewer Leavers/Tories to have developed.

What matters is winning the arguments in the here and now, convincing people who are not your natural allies, not peering at subsets like some museum freaks and hoping they all die.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Zetetic on January 05, 2019, 10:17:15 AM
Aside that, I always feel the "dying out Tories/leavers" thing is an unwarrantedly smug bit of received opinion given it neither factors in our ageing population nor that people do generally veer towards economic status quo + social conservatism as they age.

This is exactly what the article that manticore linked to looks at, and my post attempts to do the same.

There clearly are generational reductions in 'identification with the Conservative party' - far fewer 20-30 year olds identified with the Conservative party in 2010 than did in 1987, and fewer did in 1987 than 1964.

There is also a ageing effect - although this has to be understood in the context of general and widespread reductions in identification with the Conservative party, most obviously between '87 and '97. (Which touches on your point about many people being open to change in response to our actions, even if we can observe a population-level ageing effect.)

(But, also, as I say there's an issue with looking at this 'identification with' question and not putting it in context with other parties or considering how it actually relates to voting behaviour. You might well float between UKIP and the Tories in your votes without identifying with either.)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Zetetic on January 05, 2019, 10:21:22 AM
The most interesting thing, I think, in the chart that I posted is probably the '1940' and '1950' cohorts bouncing so much from '87 to '97 to '10. A fair number enamoured with Blair- and Cameron-style presentation?

But I'm not entirely convinced that's a real effect (and not exaggerated by sampling-luck and my cruddy method).
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gout_pony on January 07, 2019, 07:55:30 PM
Humbug! The BBC writes back:

"Dear Mr xxxxxxxx

Thank you for contacting us regarding our recent News coverage. We note that you feel that there has been insufficient coverage on the issue of climate change.

To allow us to reply promptly to your concerns, and to ensure we use our Licence fee resources as efficiently as possible, we’re sending this response to everyone. We’re sorry that for this reason we can’t reply personally to you on each point which has been made.

We have extensively covered findings from the IPCC report published in October, and have reported on the key developments from the UN climate talks that have recently taken place in Poland. In addition, over the last month we have reported on a range of wider climate change stories including new NASA data on the melting of Antarctic ice; a report on a reduction in electricity consumption in British homes and a study on the impact of rising global temperatures on summer heatwaves in the UK. We also published a new online calculator to help people understand the carbon footprint of their diet:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-46459714 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-46459714)

To read our latest News on the issue of climate change you may be interested in the following link:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/cmj34zmwm1zt/climate-change (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/cmj34zmwm1zt/climate-change)

The BBC has a proud record of leading the way in sustainability in the media industry and we’ve set out further action including cutting energy use further, eradicating single use plastic and minimising the impact of necessary travel. In the last Charter period, we reduced our carbon footprint by a third. People can also see the clear impact programmes like Blue Planet II and Dynasties have had on public debate about the impact of humankind on the planet.

We can assure you that the BBC is committed to providing fair and impartial coverage of the latest News stories to our audience, and climate change is an issue that the BBC takes very seriously.

Thanks again for taking the time to get in touch.

Kind Regards

BBC Complaints Team
www.bbc.co.uk/complaints"

--------------------------------------------

Same generic/ mass email I received I'm afraid to say. I guess I don't know what else I was expecting...
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: manticore on January 07, 2019, 10:19:39 PM
It is what the BBC do in response to nearly all complaints though, standard PR for a large corporation. The other side of it is that virtually every day when I listen to the World Service at night or in the morning there's a a report on some aspect of global warming or the ecological crisis. I don't watch television or listen to domestic radio so I don't know how well it's reflected there. The News website front page is not so good certainly.

The thing is to keep the pressure going.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on January 08, 2019, 08:00:38 AM
Dear xxxxxxxx

As you will see below, you are wrong and we are right.

Cheers

Kind regards,

The BBC
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Noonling on January 08, 2019, 04:21:23 PM
A whole bunch of remote volunteering roles are here, for those who don't live somewhere convenient to go to active protests:

https://rebellion.earth/volunteer/

I swear I looked at that page before and there were just one or two, now there's loads of different positions available!
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: chveik on January 10, 2019, 04:55:54 PM
wonderful article about the ethical conondrums that go with the perspective of our extinction

http://www.ritsumei.ac.jp/acd/re/k-rsc/lcs/kiyou/pdf_28-1/RitsIILCS_28.1pp.203-215CASTEL.pdf
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gout_pony on January 11, 2019, 12:33:48 AM
wonderful article about the ethical conondrums that go with the perspective of our extinction

http://www.ritsumei.ac.jp/acd/re/k-rsc/lcs/kiyou/pdf_28-1/RitsIILCS_28.1pp.203-215CASTEL.pdf

Yeh this is pretty frikkin' excellent and could be usefully paired with either Ligotti's 'Conspiracy Against the Human Race' or Camus' 'The Myth of Sisyphus' depending on whether one wishes to read Castel's paper in a nihilistic or affirmative light. Blodders, I think it'd be worth your making time to read it! Thank you chveik.

It does however strike me that the intellectual figures, scientists, bloggers and regular folk of Twitter to embrace this particular form of eschatological fatalism tend to be white American/European (often French or German) blokes and question whether this is because on some level they are still facing the question of human extinction in the abstract rather on the level of real embodied suffering. Would Privo Levi or Frederick Douglas ever have held such a view? (I guess the point I'm making is similar to the argument that it is easy for white atheist bros to denounce faith because they've not experienced the need for it.)

Basically, I think it's an excellent paper, but I'm a bit suspicious of any guy with a taste for both de Sade and Lacan!

Finally, reading it reaffirmed my opinion that Twin Peaks: The Return is the greatest piece of popular art produced in the 21st century thus far partly because Lynch and Frost take eschatological Evil seriously and understand this (at a semi-mythic semi-literal level) as having been birthed with Hiroshima!
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: chveik on January 11, 2019, 01:57:07 AM
It does however strike me that the intellectual figures, scientists, bloggers and regular folk of Twitter to embrace this particular form of eschatological fatalism tend to be white American/European (often French or German) blokes and question whether this is because on some level they are still facing the question of human extinction in the abstract rather on the level of real embodied suffering. Would Privo Levi or Frederick Douglas ever have held such a view? (I guess the point I'm making is similar to the argument that it is easy for white atheist bros to denounce faith because they've not experienced the need for it.)

that's a very good point. however, I think most of them have in mind the sufferings that their view entails, one way or another. I don't despise faith but yeah, being a white atheist from a western country, I'm more determined to embrace this form of eschatology, as you put it. still, I like to think that (this sort of) philosophy can help us confront ourselves with humanity's extinction (I don't know if it will when the shit hits the fan though).

Quote
Basically, I think it's an excellent paper, but I'm a bit suspicious of any guy with a taste for both de Sade and Lacan!

hehe. for a french scholar, it's not really a peculiar taste though.

edit: have you seen The Leftovers? it's fantastic, and it becomes even more impressive when you have these problems in mind.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: bgmnts on January 11, 2019, 02:02:04 AM
How does anyone genuinely immerse themselves in this lifestyle, campaigning, volunteering their time, protesting etc without becoming insanely depressed at the idea that hardly anyone cares or is willing to put in any effort to change things?

What keeps these people going? I have so much respect for them basically picking up the slack of the rest of us and fruitlessly giving up so much.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: chveik on January 11, 2019, 02:08:09 AM
How does anyone genuinely immerse themselves in this lifestyle, campaigning, volunteering their time, protesting etc without becoming insanely depressed at the idea that hardly anyone cares or is willing to put in any effort to change things?

What keeps these people going? I have so much respect for them basically picking up the slack of the rest of us and fruitlessly giving up so much.

I really don't know. I suppose it takes a lot of strenght, I have experienced a deep depression myself (partly) because of that, and I'm not even a particulary persevering political activist.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gout_pony on January 11, 2019, 12:09:56 PM
edit: have you seen The Leftovers? it's fantastic, and it becomes even more impressive when you have these problems in mind.

Oooh I haven't and now will try to make time to do so. Thanks again.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gout_pony on January 14, 2019, 08:56:34 PM
The only article about ice I've ever read that made me feel physical pressure from resisting my desire to scream!
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/jan/08/when-the-ice-melts-the-catastrophe-of-vanishing-glaciers (https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/jan/08/when-the-ice-melts-the-catastrophe-of-vanishing-glaciers)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gout_pony on January 22, 2019, 09:49:14 PM
Brought my leaflets to Unitarian meeting, but no takers - most people just don't take it as a big concern, it seems. My dad says humanity survived WWII so it'll survive this and my gloominess doesn't help anything. Ho hum.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Noonling on March 09, 2019, 01:50:02 PM
https://www.facebook.com/ExtinctionRebellion/videos/2370328982999514

https://rebellion.earth/breaking-extinction-rebellion-activists-create-sea-of-blood-at-downing-st-to-call-alarm-on-climate-and-ecological-emergency/?fbclid=IwAR169qtJXxabvtcR3LL3akzUZMb5f2sLXzevN5-uBDs8o_1SNcHbEyBkYVU

XR were at Downing Street earlier today, pouring 200+ litres of "blood" on the ground. Looks like a fair crowd but I expect we'll hear fuck all about it.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: garnish on March 09, 2019, 01:54:16 PM
Reckon they should be protesting BBC, ITV, Sky and Channel 4 instead of Downing Street, those fuckers holding us back just as much.