Cook'd and Bomb'd

Forums => General Bullshit => Topic started by: mothman on November 26, 2018, 09:23:36 AM

Title: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: mothman on November 26, 2018, 09:23:36 AM
I think we need one, really, don’t we? Let’s try to keep all the problem areas (Brexit, Corbyn, Biggy) out, shall we?

Still think MPs will bottle it. Saw one columnist today (Guardian twat Ancona) suggest the whips could use the threat of the revelation of sexual indiscretions to bring rebels into line...
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on November 26, 2018, 09:39:35 AM
I don't see it … The DUP, SNP, Lib Dems are against (bar one), I think near-enough all the LP is against, seeing as they are either remainers or virulent leavers who think it ties us to the ECJ etc. The RW of the LP are all staking their careers on #FPBE-type support, so they'll have to vote against to help the prospect of a second ref. Add to that a handful of Tory rebels from the ERG, plus Soubry and a few others, and I just can't see it getting through.

I think it would take a miracle right now.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Fambo Number Mive on November 26, 2018, 09:45:54 AM
So if the EU have said yes, but Parliament will likely say no, May will either have to try to renegotiate a new deal or we have no deal? I can't imagine May being able to renegotiate a new deal.

Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on November 26, 2018, 09:47:35 AM
I honestly think her best play would be to put the deal to a vote, with Remain on the ticket.

She's not going for a GE, surely.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Fambo Number Mive on November 26, 2018, 09:54:14 AM
I reckon Caroline Flint will vote for the deal: https://twitter.com/CarolineFlintMP/status/1066648712292773888
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on November 26, 2018, 09:57:48 AM
I actually think some Labour MPs will bottle it and some ERG people will vote for it through gritted teeth.

I think the plan must be to lose by a small but not insurmountable margin, bake-in some concessions/more fudge and then have a crack at it again.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Butchers Blind on November 26, 2018, 10:12:17 AM
If you were up to your neck in shit and someone threw a bucket of sick over you, would you duck?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: KennyMonster on November 26, 2018, 10:13:00 AM
If a PM wants to go to war and parliament reject it, they can go to The COD to over rule parliament.

Can May go to The COD to over rule parliament in other matters such as this?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Dr Trouser on November 26, 2018, 10:15:08 AM
I'm just astounded how much she has screwed this up. A part of me thinks she is playing a long clever game but I don't think she's that clever. We had 2 years to sort this out and we end up at this mess? it's extraordinary.

I think it will get through what with the whipping and bribing.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 26, 2018, 10:15:40 AM
I honestly think her best play would be to put the deal to a vote, with Remain on the ticket.

She's not going for a GE, surely.

If parliament rejects the deal, then its got to be that, a 2nd referendum, or 'no deal' hasn't it? What other options are there?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Dr Trouser on November 26, 2018, 10:37:20 AM
The threat of a 'no deal' might just get the EU back at the negotiating table, but then one might argue that we should have been threatening that during our negotiations.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 26, 2018, 10:49:38 AM
I think that's possible, but not with May surely? She's invested everything into this deal so it would make no sense for her to be negotiating again if it fails.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on November 26, 2018, 10:57:32 AM
The threat of a 'no deal' might just get the EU back at the negotiating table, but then one might argue that we should have been threatening that during our negotiations.

The EU is the world’s second-largest economy. May hasn’t bluffed no-deal because the EU would likely call it and Britain would sink even lower than it already has.

If you think that twice-downgrading of Britain’s credit rating, a 25% hit on sterling and slippage from 5th to 6th in world economy ranking is bad, bear in mind that that was just on the expectation of a soft Brexit.

No Deal would only benefit the vultures. The EU know that she’d never do it, and if her bluff was publicly called, she’d be entirely without any leverage at all.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 26, 2018, 11:03:50 AM
'No deal' isnt really what would happen though, it would mean no overarching deal, but the various vested interests in the UK, EU and even third parties in other countries would ensure some interim agreements where put in place in individual areas. A fall off a cliff no deal where literally nothing is agreed at all is a spectre they are conjuring to try and strongarm us into their bodge job, or better still into just cancelling the whole thing.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Dr Trouser on November 26, 2018, 11:05:10 AM
Getting the thread back on topic; Nadine Dorries has suggested that 46 letters have been sent in. I presume others are waiting to see what happens with the vote. Or the chairman of the 1922 committee is a liar or just really forgetful.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on November 26, 2018, 11:10:48 AM
The Tory rebel MPs (currently about two thirds of the parliamentary party) seem notoriously unable to write fucking letters. We’ve been here dozens of times over the last couple of weeks. Until the head of the 1922 committee calls a no confidence vote I’m not going to pay them any more attention.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Fambo Number Mive on November 26, 2018, 11:11:43 AM
Does that include the letters that the MPs only want to count if they hit 48?

Owen Jones makes a good point on Twitter

Quote
Has your local MP said they won't vote for Theresa May's deal? That may mean they'll abstain, which could save the deal. Politely tweet them now and ask if they're voting against.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on November 26, 2018, 12:29:02 PM
I reckon Caroline Flint will vote for the deal: https://twitter.com/CarolineFlintMP/status/1066648712292773888

This is what they are scared of

Quote
The consequences are dire & a 2nd Ref will lead to far right resurgence, discord & distrust

Getting lynched by the mob.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Fambo Number Mive on November 26, 2018, 12:59:26 PM
SDLP have called for Labour to vote for the deal.

Quote
We don’t think there is a good Brexit but if we are going to have one, let’s try and limit the damage to our communities and our businesses and our society here, that’s what the backstop does, we need to bank that backstop, it is our ultimate insurance policy.

I would appeal to people across the water who have a vote in two weeks’ time, particularly people in the Labour party who have a very keen interest in supporting our peace process and all the political progress we have had over the last 20 years, this is an opportunity to once again step in and protect the progress that you were involved in helping bring about.

It is absolutely essential and we are all saying it, we are saying it as a collective political majority, we are saying it as a civic society from across all the different sectors, and our communities are saying it as well, we need your help, we need your protection, we need you to vote for this deal.

In related Tory news, George Osborne now thinks the Tories were wrong to oppose ID cards.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 26, 2018, 01:04:36 PM
SDLP have called for Labour to vote for the deal.

In related Tory news, George Osborne now thinks the Tories were wrong to oppose ID cards.

Yeah, if only they'd known that eight years later their only chance of staying in power was to play vulnerable sections of society off against each other. The ID cards would have made that so much easier.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on November 26, 2018, 01:05:19 PM
SDLP have called for Labour to vote for the deal.

Unsurprising. They're probably as happy with it for the same reason Sinn Fein are, no?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 26, 2018, 01:17:49 PM
I do wonder how much is theatre and posturing from people who already intend to vote for May's deal, but are positioning themselves as sceptics who agonised over their decision but after a great deal of thought reluctantly decided to do what they thought was best in the 'national interest'.


A lot of MPs fit into two categories on this a) they want all this over with so they can go back to some degree of business as usual, for themselves as much as the country b) they don't want to be seen as defying the will of the electorate


May's bodge alongside two weeks of firm 'persuasion' and media hysteria might be enough to do the job for them, but hopefully there will still enough angry people on both sides to defeat it.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on November 26, 2018, 02:09:22 PM
worrying to see, even on here, opinion drifting from "the deal will never pass" to "hopefully there will be enough anger to defeat it"...next step "we should embrace this deal  and herald this new era under our glorious leader Theresa May"
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Fambo Number Mive on November 26, 2018, 02:22:52 PM
I doubt many people here will change their view on what they think about Theresa May's Brexit deal. Even if she goes back to the EU I still think any deal Theresa May gets will be rubbish.

It's like if you asked the Prime Minister to arrange a birthday party for you, it would end up with bobbing for sprouts, face painting with only the colour purple and bare knuckle boxing.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Neville Chamberlain on November 26, 2018, 02:27:40 PM
Can I be the first to state that I think Brexit itself is a completely bollocks idea!
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 26, 2018, 02:29:42 PM
I doubt many people here will change their view on what they think about Theresa May's Brexit deal. Even if she goes back to the EU I still think any deal Theresa May gets will be rubbish.

It's like if you asked the Prime Minister to arrange a birthday party for you, it would end up with bobbing for sprouts, face painting with only the colour purple and bare knuckle boxing.

As long as Freedom of Movement remains an immovable red line and WTO most favoured nation rules are in place, this is as good as it can possibly ever be.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on November 26, 2018, 03:09:30 PM
How many times...?

THIS ISN'T A TRADE DEAL OR ANYTHING LIKE IT. IT'S AN AGREEMENT ABOUT WHAT WILL HAPPEN WHILE THE UK AND EU ARE NEGOTIATING A DEAL.

And it's not something that anyone should accept. It's shit as fuck.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shit Good Nose on November 26, 2018, 03:15:19 PM
This second referendum/"Peoples Vote" that keeps getting mentioned - apologies, I've not really been following it all too closely of late - should it come to pass and happen, will it actually reverse/cancel Brexit if the majority now voted to remain (which I think they would - out of everyone I know who voted leave, only one of them would vote the same way), or is it just an empty current opinion poll that will have no bearing on anything other than filling slow news days?

We've effectively cunted off and embarrassed ourselves as far as the rest of Europe are concerned anyway, I know.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: jobotic on November 26, 2018, 03:19:24 PM
If the result is to remain expect the leavers to start saying "yes, but it's only advisory. THAT'S WHAT YOU SAID BEFORE, TRAYTORS"
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on November 26, 2018, 03:23:50 PM
Expect these kind of posters to start showing up in your neighbourhood

(http://thecuban-missile-crisis.weebly.com/uploads/5/9/5/3/59538761/864748664.jpg?235)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Darles Chickens on November 26, 2018, 03:27:05 PM
It's all been handled so badly. Obviously it'd take a 60/40 majority or thereabouts to indicate a real mandate to remain. A marginal majority doesn't help anything, it just shows that there's enough ambiguity that small changes in demographic, turnout or opinion can change the result (which of course is why a supermajority should've been required in the first place).

If a new vote were to return a 52/48 result in the other direction, a 'best of three' take would be the best way to show a continuing tend towards Remain (or not), but that's just getting daft.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on November 26, 2018, 03:28:55 PM
Expect these kind of posters to start showing up in your neighbourhood

(http://thecuban-missile-crisis.weebly.com/uploads/5/9/5/3/59538761/864748664.jpg?235)

Fucking state of that!

Where is the question mark?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Thomas on November 26, 2018, 03:35:14 PM
This second referendum/"Peoples Vote" that keeps getting mentioned - apologies, I've not really been following it all too closely of late - should it come to pass and happen, will it actually reverse/cancel Brexit if the majority now voted to remain (which I think they would - out of everyone I know who voted leave, only one of them would vote the same way), or is it just an empty current opinion poll that will have no bearing on anything other than filling slow news days?

We've effectively cunted off and embarrassed ourselves as far as the rest of Europe are concerned anyway, I know.

If a second referendum resulted in REMAIN, ACTUALLY, would the UK retain any clout as far as 'remaining and reforming' is concerned? Or, as SGN suggests, would there bit a small bit of embarrassment for a decade or two?

I haven't come to support the idea of a second referendum. I think it would undermine all the disenfranchisement that led to the leave vote, and might result in even deeper resentment (and that way lies right-wing fringe extremism). The people who feel left-behind will feel even more betrayed. People, millions of them struggling, were (disingenuously) asked if they wanted CHANGE, they said yes, and two years on that vague spectre of change is revoked and the status quo is resumed? Dunno. Reckon it could get nasty.

That said, I do think the 2016 referendum was a disingenuous act of political cowardice, followed by a campaign of dishonesty disguising internal Tory power-play, and that the outcome was largely the result of right-wing media propaganda and scapegoatery stretching back years. Even if there are valid, socialist reasons to leave the EU, I don't think they are at the forefront of any Tory's mind - and they are the ones in power, let's remember, with most of the media on their side. I myself voted remain. But we've had it now. Give it to Labour and see if they can fashion something fair out of it. Fuck it. Let's ramp up zoological research and see if we can trade with bonobos and chimps.

Uh oh. Just realised this is the May thread, and I'm on the derailed side of the tracks. So, Theresa May. Was funny when she did a dance
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 26, 2018, 03:36:35 PM
It's all been handled so badly. Obviously it'd take a 60/40 majority or thereabouts to indicate a real mandate to remain. A marginal majority doesn't help anything, it just shows that there's enough ambiguity that small changes in demographic, turnout or opinion can change the result (which of course is why a supermajority should've been required in the first place).

If a new vote were to return a 52/48 result in the other direction, a 'best of three' take would be the best way to show a continuing tend towards Remain (or not), but that's just getting daft.

I don't think the 2016 referendum result was that much of a problem. Anyone with a sliver of pragmatism about them would see a 52/48 result and think "That's right down the middle. We need a soft, EEA Brexit so that we leave as per the instruction of the 52% but remain as close as we can as per the 48%."

Problem is, May saw that result and somehow misinterpreted it as 100/0, saw the polls against Labour and UKIP and got really fucking greedy. At no point during this process has she been honest and she's paying for it now. We're all paying for it now.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: manticore on November 26, 2018, 03:41:51 PM
Forget it, wrong thread. Sorry. Brexit thread!
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on November 26, 2018, 03:47:04 PM
Does anyone think there wouldn't be a huge right-wing backlash in this country if there was a second referendum and there was a narrow vote to remain?

Firstly, fuck em. I’d rather deal with them than brexit.

Secondly, maybe there wouldn’t be. A lot of the general public are bored of Brexit. They just want it over, and probably either way will do.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Fambo Number Mive on November 26, 2018, 03:48:53 PM
Cable has tweeted that he wants to debate May and Corbyn.

If Cable gets to debate so should the SNP, PC and DUP.

Should be interesting.

May is speaking to the House of Commons on her Brexit deal.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 26, 2018, 03:56:53 PM
Firstly, fuck em. I’d rather deal with them than brexit.

Secondly, maybe there wouldn’t be. A lot of the general public are bored of Brexit. They just want it over, and probably either way will do.

Yeah, genuinely fuck them. Labour and the Tories giving UKIP legitimacy by treating them and their policies with kid gloves is what got us into this mess in the first place. UKIP never won a seat at a general election, never entered a coalition or supply and confidence deal yet their 2010 manifesto is being implemented by the Conservatives without a second's thought.

Every time you concede something to the right, they just move the conversation somewhere even more uncomfortable. The next step is for Tommy Robinson's "legitimate concerns" about Muslims to go mainstream. Boris Johnson has already tested the water for this one.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Dr Trouser on November 26, 2018, 04:00:03 PM
Jeremy Corbyn sounding more statesmanlike than I've ever seen before. It could be that May becomes ever more inept he appears better but I dunno.

And her letter to the MPs seems to be threatening a second referendum might happen if they don't vote for her dog turd sandwich
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 26, 2018, 04:10:56 PM
Cable has tweeted that he wants to debate May and Corbyn.


That's a bit like some bloke in the audience demanding he gets to play Jimmy White in the world snooker final.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Dr Trouser on November 26, 2018, 04:14:14 PM
Ah yes because when a Unionist MP refers to 'the Union' he would obviously be referring to the EU. Nigel Dodds not finding that funny at all.

This is good viewing though, everyone trying hard not to say 'oh for fucks safe stop lying' out loud.

Christ even Yvette Cooper is sounding well fucked off.

And Paul Weller seems to have lent Mrs. May one of his striped mod jackets.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Dr Trouser on November 26, 2018, 04:32:23 PM
This is compulsive viewing -i've wasted an hour watching this, MP after MP just basically putting the boot in.

She can't carry on like this.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Darles Chickens on November 26, 2018, 04:35:55 PM
Yeah it's a delicious bit of schadenfreude isn't it, even if all her backbenchers are, for the most part, an odious bunch.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 26, 2018, 04:36:10 PM
The question is, how many of them will end up supporting it as the 'least worst option'? Especially after a sort of mini election period where it will be drummed into them endlessly that the alternative is a disaster for the Tory party?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on November 26, 2018, 04:37:07 PM
Quote
4186. Posted by ferrari35 on
Just now
Dear Britains artical 50 has been singed and is now law take what's on the table it's the only offer you are getting you will get used to subjugation and even one day enjoy it🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Dr Trouser on November 26, 2018, 04:37:44 PM
Finally we got someone who openly supports Mrs. May's deal - well done Nicky Morgan!

edit and that's two - well done Caroline Spelman
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 26, 2018, 04:54:10 PM
Quote
BBC reporting that May is banking on people being so bored with Brexit that they will support her deal so they don't have to hear about it again.
https://twitter.com/CraigMurrayOrg/status/1067052087350046722?s=19 (https://twitter.com/CraigMurrayOrg/status/1067052087350046722?s=19)

It's MPs voting though, arent they paid to pay attention?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: mothman on November 26, 2018, 04:55:42 PM
Fucking state of that!

Where is the question mark?

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/7a/Isntitmidnight.jpg/220px-Isntitmidnight.jpg)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 26, 2018, 05:03:44 PM
"The backstop has to be a trap!"

Yes, it's a trap for Westminster liars and spivs. If you have an alternative, bring it forward and the backstop goes away.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Fambo Number Mive on November 26, 2018, 05:52:56 PM
The idea of people being "bored" of Brexit - one of the major political events - is a concern. Of course, parts (if not most) of the media are happy for people to be bored.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on November 26, 2018, 06:08:33 PM
Of course, parts (if not most) of the media are happy to tell people to be bored.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Fambo Number Mive on November 26, 2018, 06:10:54 PM
Very true, BlodwynPig, very true.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: finnquark on November 26, 2018, 06:21:04 PM
I enjoyed the bit where Mrs May claimed she has been knocking on doors recently, chatting to the folksy people of Britain about Brexit. Just rewatching this after work, about half an hour in and Mrs May seems extremely chipper. Edit: Mark Francois mentioning surrender was amazing.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on November 26, 2018, 06:34:34 PM
May must be a masochist. This is the third time in the last couple of weeks she’s been battered over this in the commons.

Actually if she really gets off on being humiliated it does explain the last two years disturbingly well.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 26, 2018, 06:41:06 PM
I don't wish to be crude about it but I think we should allow the appropriate body to inspect Theresa May's gusset for evidence that she finds having her brexit plans thoroughly lambasted by all parts of the house sexually arousing. She does get amazingly more cheerful as she goes along, so I fear there may be something in it.


Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Howj Begg on November 26, 2018, 06:47:00 PM
I'm convinced she sees herself in quasi-religious, marytological terms, a St Teresa of brexit, whose destiny is to lead the country in a difficult times when "hard choices have to be made" cf Thatcher with the destruction of the state, Blair with the destruction of Iraq and international law. May is very happy to be a scapegoat, a Guy for all this shit, she believes she will be remembered as a Great Figure, who gave a personal sacrifice. Once again the pathological tendencies of a prime minister are what shape our present and future, in place of considered policy and thought about national interest. What is so funny is that she tried the gambit of "trust me, I alone have the vision and courage to govern amidst chaos" many times, and was rejected by the electorate, commons mps, the lords, the law courts, the committees, who all said, no, fuck no we don't trust you, we want a vote, we want to be involved, we will constrain you. So all she's got left is her private belief in herself, she hasn't been able to get anyone to agree with her. I bet she spent much of her childhood reading the lives of saints.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 26, 2018, 10:19:44 PM
Brexit: Trump hints May's Brexit could bar UK-US trade deal

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46352463

This is what we need. The US dictating our foreign policy to feather their own nest. What a fucking future.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: mothman on November 26, 2018, 10:36:28 PM
She should have held his other apendage when she had the chance.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 26, 2018, 10:39:34 PM
From the guardian -

Quote
However, Downing Street’s desire for a peak slot may come against the brutal reality of TV schedules. The prime minister’s team want the largest possible audience for such a debate, but the only logistically possible Sunday night that could work is 9 December, which could bring its own problems if they wish to appear on one of the biggest terrestrial channels.

That evening, BBC One is set to show Countryfile, the season finales of Doctor Who and David Attenborough’s Dynasties, plus Strictly Come Dancing and a new drama by Jimmy McGovern. Meanwhile, ITV will be showing the final of I’m a Celebrity … Get Me Out of Here.

It is unlikely that a sceptical audience settling down for Sunday night viewing would welcome any of the shows being interrupted or delayed, even for a political debate that could shape the future of Britain.

Fucking hell.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on November 26, 2018, 10:41:25 PM
I know! What are they on? This series of Doctor Who has been so weak no one would complain if it got moved for a debate.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: thraxx on November 26, 2018, 10:44:11 PM

After everything, everyone is marshaling together to get this deal through; the media, the cabinet, cross party MPs. It's going to go through isn't it?  How on earth did we get from 2 weeks ago to here?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: mothman on November 26, 2018, 10:45:51 PM
We’re planning to put the tree up that weekend, so that’ll just be the icing on the Christmas cake here at Mothy Towers.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on November 26, 2018, 10:47:08 PM
If a second referendum resulted in REMAIN, ACTUALLY, would the UK retain any clout as far as 'remaining and reforming' is concerned? Or, as SGN suggests, would there bit a small bit of embarrassment for a decade or two?

I haven't come to support the idea of a second referendum. I think it would undermine all the disenfranchisement that led to the leave vote, and might result in even deeper resentment (and that way lies right-wing fringe extremism). The people who feel left-behind will feel even more betrayed. People, millions of them struggling, were (disingenuously) asked if they wanted CHANGE, they said yes, and two years on that vague spectre of change is revoked and the status quo is resumed? Dunno. Reckon it could get nasty.

That said, I do think the 2016 referendum was a disingenuous act of political cowardice, followed by a campaign of dishonesty disguising internal Tory power-play, and that the outcome was largely the result of right-wing media propaganda and scapegoatery stretching back years. Even if there are valid, socialist reasons to leave the EU, I don't think they are at the forefront of any Tory's mind - and they are the ones in power, let's remember, with most of the media on their side. I myself voted remain. But we've had it now. Give it to Labour and see if they can fashion something fair out of it. Fuck it. Let's ramp up zoological research and see if we can trade with bonobos and chimps.

Uh oh. Just realised this is the May thread, and I'm on the derailed side of the tracks. So, Theresa May. Was funny when she did a dance

Just remember that the referendum wasn't a thing the UK public were desperate for and the last election proved there is far more to people's politics than European Union. This was a Tory feud imposed on a bemused and manipulated public.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on November 26, 2018, 10:50:28 PM
After everything, everyone is marshaling together to get this deal through; the media, the cabinet, cross party MPs. It's going to go through isn't it?  How on earth did we get from 2 weeks ago to here?

Why do you keep saying this? DUP+Lab+SNP+etc almost all against. That's enough as it stands. Now add in the ERG and staunch Tory remainers like Soubry, and it's way over the line. I just don't see it getting through.

Look. Guardian. (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/26/how-will-your-mp-vote-on-theresa-mays-brexit-deal)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: mothman on November 26, 2018, 10:55:10 PM
We all know that intellectually. But we also know how craven and manipulatible these fuckers are. So we can’t help but worry there’s an upset coming. It’s the referendum all over again, basically.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Captain Z on November 26, 2018, 10:56:37 PM
Has Brexit just been an elaborate setup for a live Dr Who series finale?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on November 26, 2018, 11:57:55 PM
I know! What are they on? This series of Doctor Who has been so weak no one would complain if it got moved for a debate.

They could put Dr. Who on in its rightful slot, Saturday mornings on BBC2.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on November 27, 2018, 12:08:38 AM
After everything, everyone is marshaling together to get this deal through; the media, the cabinet, cross party MPs. It's going to go through isn't it?  How on earth did we get from 2 weeks ago to here?

I'm not sure many MPs will have changed their voting intentions in that time, and a LOT of them would need to.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on November 27, 2018, 06:54:32 AM
Why do you keep saying this? DUP+Lab+SNP+etc almost all against. That's enough as it stands. Now add in the ERG and staunch Tory remainers like Soubry, and it's way over the line. I just don't see it getting through.

Look. Guardian. (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/26/how-will-your-mp-vote-on-theresa-mays-brexit-deal)

My feeling is it's going to be more like 350 vs 290.

If there's under 30MPs left to woo after losing the first vote I think they'll try and possibly succeed.

I'm not sure how May continues as PM if it's a defeat as big as Guardian predicts.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 27, 2018, 07:16:53 AM
It's effectively a vote of confidence in her and her government.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: jobotic on November 27, 2018, 07:40:07 AM
It's effectively a vote of confidence in her and her government.

Hey Biggy how angry are you about Trump weighing in about May's deal? I mean he's not as bad as Obama obviously but even so.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 27, 2018, 07:59:21 AM
I don't think its the same as Obama's intervention - he was asked by Cameron to try and sway the result of a referendum by saying something that wasn't true - especially so considering Obama was right at the end of his term. Trumps statement is factually true as far as my reading of May's stupid deal is concerned - do you dispute that?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on November 27, 2018, 08:01:27 AM
Haha.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: greencalx on November 27, 2018, 08:04:26 AM
I agree that the Brexit vote is effectively a confidence vote, so I imagine rather more Tory MPs will fall in line than it first appears.

I’ve lost track of how this bill is supposed to proceed - are amendments possible? If so, how and when?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on November 27, 2018, 08:09:17 AM
Europe was never a massive issue for most British people but given Brexit was supposed to put the issue to bed, May has excelled herself but reaching a position that feels for most people like a major, costly constitutional defeat when it was originally sold as being this grand moment of triumph. Not much joy to be found.

She only has the WE HAD A VOTE SO LETS JUST GET ON AND DO BREXIT non-thinkers left in support
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 27, 2018, 08:09:23 AM
I agree that the Brexit vote is effectively a confidence vote, so I imagine rather more Tory MPs will fall in line than it first appears.

I’ve lost track of how this bill is supposed to proceed - are amendments possible? If so, how and when?


May's going to treat it like an election campaign which will concentrate a lot of tory minds that it could mean oblivion for them if they don't get on board.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: solidified gruel merchant on November 27, 2018, 08:19:51 AM
Why do you keep saying this? DUP+Lab+SNP+etc almost all against. That's enough as it stands. Now add in the ERG and staunch Tory remainers like Soubry, and it's way over the line. I just don't see it getting through.

Look. Guardian. (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/26/how-will-your-mp-vote-on-theresa-mays-brexit-deal)


It’s either get the deal through, or risk a socialist government. Of course they’ll get it through.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: thraxx on November 27, 2018, 08:30:25 AM
Why do you keep saying this? DUP+Lab+SNP+etc almost all against. That's enough as it stands. Now add in the ERG and staunch Tory remainers like Soubry, and it's way over the line. I just don't see it getting through.

Look. Guardian. (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/26/how-will-your-mp-vote-on-theresa-mays-brexit-deal)

Always say what?  That Guardian piece is just an update from a couple of weeks ago.  There is no way of knowing who will vote what when the time comes and there are more MPs saying they will vote for it, or saying they swill abstain, which you didn't really have a week ago.  It doesn't matter who says they are against, it matters who votes against.  The simple fact is, I've never known politicians not to vote for their own party when the chips are down no matter what they say.  The mood is significantly more positive than 2 weeks ago.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on November 27, 2018, 08:30:39 AM
It’s either get the deal through, or risk a socialist government. Of course they’ll get it through.

There’s also the wet dream scenario of our public sector making even more money for millionaires once the inevitable US-UK trade deal is achieved.

So of course the Tories will push it through.  They have no other reason to exist.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on November 27, 2018, 08:32:35 AM

It’s either get the deal through, or risk a socialist government. Of course they’ll get it through.

The vote will be closer than currently envisaged -  The Guardian is unwisely predicting a best case scenario rather than baking in the PR campaign to come.

But there are enough absolute die-hards on Brexit in the Tory party that won't come around in a fortnight. You only have to look at the numbers to work out how few rebels it will take to sink this deal. At the moment the Government are miles away from getting this through and by their actions you can tell. The sudden thrust of the PM in the media, the concessions left right and centre - we are watching the last stand.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on November 27, 2018, 08:44:20 AM
So of course the Tories will push it through.

When you count the core ERG crowd - not all of them, just the hardcore 25-30 who won't be voting for the deal because they believe it is even worse than remaining (and want May gone), count them in one by one, the deal can't get through unless corresponding Labour MPs vote for it.

Even this factors in the DUP coming back onside somehow.



Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on November 27, 2018, 09:30:07 AM
I reckon a good chunk of those who submitted letters of no confidence will vote for the deal now. You saw it in the letters they sent ("I will submit this letter but if it's the one that tips the balance I retract it"). Got swept up in the excitement, craven villains.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 27, 2018, 09:37:00 AM
How many Labour 'rebels' are likely to vote for May's bodge? I've not heard anyone go on the record yet saying they will. May's majority is so slim she's going to need a fair few I think.

Imagine being a labour MP and not only propping up May's government but voting for her stupid bodge job.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on November 27, 2018, 09:49:18 AM
When you count the core ERG crowd - not all of them, just the hardcore 25-30 who won't be voting for the deal because they believe it is even worse than remaining (and want May gone), count them in one by one, the deal can't get through unless corresponding Labour MPs vote for it.

Even this factors in the DUP coming back onside somehow.





They've been quiet for the last few weeks, but I can see the some of Blairite stragglers voting with the government on this, or at least abstaining: it prolongs our relationship with the EU and buys them a bit of time to dragoon the FBPE mob into a Brexit reversal somehow; and obviously the Labour MPs who'd rather see a Tory-controlled Brexit than a government headed by Corbyn.

This is obviously going to be a three-line whip on the government benches. How many of them will defy that?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on November 27, 2018, 09:51:57 AM
Disclaimer: I don't really think this will pass, but I'm not entirely convinced that it'll be defeated either.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on November 27, 2018, 10:41:38 AM
How big will the defeat need to be for May to step down? I reckon if the majority that vote against it is +40 odd there's nowhere she can go.

The EU won't give her enough new concessions to get that many onside and if they can't solve the issue with the DUP they effectively become a minority government.

There's also the issue that different rebels want diametrically different things. Potential Labour deal voters want more certainty over membership of various different institutions, ERG rebels want certainty we will not be in them. Whatever you give one lot you lose others.

As stated above, such a situation is effectively a rejection of her efforts and therefore her government. May would either have to go or to fight an election.

So this PR campaign may have two purposes - losing the vote as narrowly as possible but also her firing the starting pistol on an election.


Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on November 27, 2018, 10:53:05 AM
Bribe, bully, blackmail. That's how they do it. Sell your opinions for a knighthood? DMIID. I mean, you'll be surrounded by people who despise you because you don't belong and they know exactly how you got there, but that's a minor issue.

I wonder how often May thinks of the 2017 election. I wonder if it keeps her awake at night. How different would things have been if they hadn't thrown their thin majority - the only one they've managed in over a quarter of a century - down the hubris vacuum?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 27, 2018, 10:58:34 AM
The likes of Soubry will support it. They always fucking do. All mouth and no trousers. Remember when Dominic Grieve voted against his own amendment? Cowards, each and every one of them.

However, the ERG types will vote against it because it's the quickest route to crashing out with no deal.

I think that's where this all starts to get a bit messy for the opposition. Regardless of any vote, we automatically leave the EU on the 29th March. There's a danger that if the opposition vote against the deal, we'll crash out to an absolute catastrophe with Labour, Lib Dem, Green, SNP and Plaid Cymru fingerprints all over it.

I suspect with the usually shy and cowardly May demanding Corbyn debate her, this is exactly what her plan is. She's already ruled out a people's vote. She's ruled out an election. She's ruled out resigning. She's ruled out remaining. So instead, she'll shame the opposition into either backing her or be tarred with bringing about the biggest catastrophe this country has seen since WWII.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on November 27, 2018, 11:08:03 AM
I don’t think a May defeat automatically means she goes. Her mentality is to keep going, I don’t think she will ever resign.

As to the vote there seems to be the view among MPs that if the first one fails the government will try again, so leaving them free from consequences to vote against May’s deal. If it came to a no confidence in the government vote the Tories (and probably the DUP) would rally around May.

But if it all goes tits up (more so than it already has, of course) they’ll remove her and carry on.

The Tories will avoid a General Election like the plague but that does not mean May is safe at all.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Absorb the anus burn on November 27, 2018, 11:11:52 AM
I think May will lose the vote, but it'll be a lot closer than The Guardian (et al) are predicting....  May will find support in Remain and Leave Tories (who'll cite national unity) and Labour MPs (the neoliberal status-quo, Corbyn-haters) who'll push the numbers up. The DUP can probably be bought along with a couple of Liberals.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 27, 2018, 11:16:46 AM
I don’t think a May defeat automatically means she goes. Her mentality is to keep going, I don’t think she will ever resign.


I don't know what else it can mean though, considering she is unlikely to be in a position to go do a more favourable deal with the EU.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on November 27, 2018, 11:19:47 AM
I think when May has her face up against the wall and just keeps trying to walk through it the Tories will finally get their act together and remove her.

They’d prefer it if she got all the way through Brexit before making her a scapegoat, but if she can go no further they’ll finally put her out of her misery.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 27, 2018, 11:27:32 AM

I don't know what else it can mean though, considering she is unlikely to be in a position to go do a more favourable deal with the EU.

She doesn't have to. She can just crash out and blame Corbyn.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 27, 2018, 11:32:31 AM
Thats an interesting point as I have lost count now of the amount of times people have said 'MPs will never vote for a no deal'.


But thats not how it works is it? A no deal isnt something they'd vote for, its something that would happen by default next March as a consequence of not been able to agree a wider deal with the EU.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on November 27, 2018, 11:35:03 AM
The idea is that Parliament would take control and instruct May to get an A50 extension. Which, given the horror of the cliff-edge, is I think what would happen.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on November 27, 2018, 11:36:57 AM
Thats an interesting point as I have lost count now of the amount of times people have said 'MPs will never vote for a no deal'.


But thats not how it works is it? A no deal isnt something they'd vote for, its something that would happen by default next March as a consequence of not been able to agree a wider deal with the EU.

Don't worry, bigs. You'll get the chaos and discord you're desperate for somehow.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 27, 2018, 11:39:27 AM
The idea is that Parliament would take control and instruct May to get an A50 extension. Which, given the horror of the cliff-edge, is I think what would happen.


Well the EU don't want a 'no deal' either, so you're probably right. It just wouldn't be with May in charge.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: thraxx on November 27, 2018, 11:40:23 AM
The idea is that Parliament would take control and instruct May to get an A50 extension. Which, given the horror of the cliff-edge, is I think what would happen.

That's not a bad shout.  But given that may has backed herself into a corner on deal and course of action, and the EU have said this is the deal, May surely couldn't be the person to take it forward, nor any leaver types.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on November 27, 2018, 11:48:30 AM
What, you mean she couldn't do something like say "nothing has changed" and keep on going?

I think she might demand to put her deal to the public.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Kelvin on November 27, 2018, 01:32:09 PM
If there is a second referendum (with Remain on the ballot) under a Tory leadership, I will post my genitals to the moon.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 27, 2018, 01:38:17 PM
I find it hard to see Corbyn doing that either tbh.


Don't use yodel if you post your genitals to the moon btw, they're liable to end up on Mars.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Blue Jam on November 27, 2018, 01:38:39 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46355299

Quote
"I am going to be explaining why I think this deal is the right deal for the UK - and yes, I am ready to debate it with Jeremy Corbyn.

"Because I have got a plan. He hasn't got a plan."

Well, I suppose you do at least have a big document, Mrs May...
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Captain Z on November 27, 2018, 01:46:43 PM
But... it's not his job to have a plan. The only reason he would have a plan would be if you had totally and utterly failed in your job AND he felt the need to go beyond his remit to help you out for some reason.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on November 27, 2018, 01:54:23 PM
Why is it being set up as a party political issue? Why is she debating Corbyn on the deal? Seems arbitrary, and as has been said just turns into a Tory v Labour issue, which it isn't.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on November 27, 2018, 01:58:32 PM
Of course it's a Lab vs Tory issue. Labour wants to stay in the SM. Tories don't. Labour cares about workers' rights, Tories just want to get out of paying tax.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on November 27, 2018, 01:59:24 PM
She wants to hold up Labour as the enemy to get her own troops back onside. It’s desperate stuff really.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Panbaams on November 27, 2018, 02:11:24 PM
I enjoy how she's announced that she's ready to do a TV debate at precisely the moment that Amber Rudd's rejoined the Cabinet.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on November 27, 2018, 02:17:40 PM
To me, even the PR stuff, schizo interviews, wanting to be everywhere in the press and demanding TV interviews is already proof to me that this is May's last stand, as all of this is exactly what she's tried to avoid doing since becoming leader when she's been shown up as awkward, emotionally mute and on another planet to normal people. She wouldn't be doing all this unless she was in the deepest of deep shit, and I fully hope and expect Corbyn will come across better in the interviews than she will.

Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 27, 2018, 02:21:32 PM
He should walk any debate, as he usually plays very well with an audience when the filter of the mainstream shit media isn't between them. I do think he might face some awkward questions when it comes to how exactly he would negotiate a different deal and why the EU would agree to it though. Anything less leavey than what May has got would effectively be indistinguishable from just remaining as currently.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on November 27, 2018, 02:52:45 PM
Best case scenario.

The day of the debate, May says she's suffering from a heavy cold and Amber Rudd will take her place. Corbyn rocks up and sees Amber on the plinth

"Fuck this joke, I'm out" he declares, but Amber mocks him relentlessly.

"Alright, Amber...let's do this!"

DESTROYS THE TORY PARTY ONCE AND FOR ALL
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on November 27, 2018, 04:27:09 PM
Well the EU don't want a 'no deal' either
But nor do they want to be messed about by fuckwits who think a substantially different 'deal' is possible given the interests of its member states.

An Article 50 extension is not impossible without a credible alternative negotiator but it's plausible the rest of the EU would tell us to get stuffed. They've provided the arrangement that they, collectively, can tolerate amongst themselves.

Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on November 27, 2018, 04:31:57 PM
The ideal situation for the ERG lot is, I suggest, for May to stay in place until mid-2019, and to try to scrabble for the throne at that point.

Whether or not we 'crash out' or enter the transition period (which looks pretty much exactly as it always would have done) doesn't actually matter a huge amount to them, really, I would have thought. The former has some minor advantages for their broader agenda, while the latter has the advantage of being able to slightly more convincingly cast the EU as the source of all our woes for a bit longer.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 27, 2018, 04:35:22 PM
But nor do they want to be messed about by fuckwits who think a substantially different 'deal' is possible given the interests of its member states.

An Article 50 extension is not impossible without a credible alternative negotiator but it's plausible the rest of the EU would tell us to get stuffed. They've provided the arrangement that they, collectively, can tolerate amongst themselves.


That's Jeremy Corbyns plan isn't it?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on November 27, 2018, 04:45:03 PM
Love the way biggy keeps putting ‘no deal’ in scare-quotes, as though the same bunch of venal incompetents who’ve sat on their hands for the last 40 years of anti-EU campaigning and the last 2 years of ACTUAL NOTICE OF WITHDRAWAL are suddenly going to pull a plan for a magic utopia out of their arseholes in two months and present it to an EU that’s already said that negotiations are closed.

Please tell us which subreddit you’re getting these talking points from bigs. I could do with a laugh.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 27, 2018, 04:52:55 PM
As Biggy rightfully says, this isn't like an election debate. Corbyn can't rely on his socialist domestic policy to win this. It's irrelevant to the debate.

Labour have sat on the fence all through the article 50 process and tried to be all things to all men to tie up their leaver and remainer bases. Corbyn is incredibly vulnerable on Brexit and Labour's continued insistence that they'd be able to get membership of the single market with no freedom of movement just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. The EU have said countless times that the four freedoms are indivisible.

Like May, Corbyn has been kicking the can down the road as he refuses to face the reality of what the EU will give us. By agreeing to this debate, he'll also run out of road.

May might have a dreadful deal, but it's signed, sealed and ratified by the EU. It's unicorn free. He's going to have to speak the unspeakable and finally make a choice; No deal, May's deal or EEA.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on November 27, 2018, 04:54:00 PM
Or push for a second referendum. Seems the safest thing for him to do.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on November 27, 2018, 04:55:59 PM
Resign from parliament during the debate. "Prime Minister, I am now merely a member of the general public and am free to say what we are all thinking..."
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Howj Begg on November 27, 2018, 04:57:44 PM
Or push for a second referendum. Seems the safest thing for him to do.

Yep. Huxley's Babkins I appreciate your hardnosed analysis, but Alberon has just answered it, I think.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 27, 2018, 05:02:58 PM
Or push for a second referendum. Seems the safest thing for him to do.

And whats the question?

Huxleys assement is quite correct i think. There is nothing different Corbyn could negotiate with the EU that wouldnt be even closer to the remain position and thus even more pointless than Mays deal.

That's why I suspect, as loathe as I am to say it, that the EU and May may have snookered him a bit.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on November 27, 2018, 05:04:24 PM
The EU have said countless times that the four freedoms are indivisible.
And this isn't (just) an ideological stance of some apparatchiks - it's a fundamental principle that the member states overwhelmingly abide by because of the (perceived at the very least) mutual benefit.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on November 27, 2018, 05:06:30 PM
that wouldnt be even closer to the remain position and thus even more pointless han Mays deal.
Although that points to the fundamental problem that overwhelmingly both Labour and the wider public want nothing actually within the remit of any arrangement with EU that isn't "closer to the remain position", with perhaps the exception of SENDING (some of) THE BUGGERS BACK.

Edit: Arguably from of the problems for a left-winger concerned by the economically 'liberal' excesses of the EU is that the more we draw into a more-Leave-y bespoke position the more that we'll be hoisted on greater emphasis by the EU on exactly the sort of things that we're concerned about (state aid, non-profit/state ownership in the context of public services, etc.)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on November 27, 2018, 05:08:16 PM
That's Jeremy Corbyns plan isn't it?
Which depends on the Conservative party deciding that it'd like to give government a rest. Or to be overtaken by a remarkable degree of hubris.

Neither of which are impossible under the circumstances, I suppose.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Howj Begg on November 27, 2018, 05:09:29 PM
Although that points to the fundamental problem that overwhelmingly both Labour and the wider public want nothing actually within the remit of any arrangement with EU that isn't "closer to the remain position", with perhaps the exception of SENDING (some of) THE BUGGERS BACK.

Precisely. I would love for Corbyn to make the case for immigrants, and in a far less prone-to-misinterpretation way than he did previously with that speech about wage undercutting, but barring that, he at least gets to turn the ball over to a new Remain campaign which can make that case, alongside all the other benefits of EU membership.

Cute that biggy still thinks Corbyn is actually a secret Brexiteer.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 27, 2018, 05:13:47 PM
'No deal' is then only way to actually leave the EU, draw a line under this toxic mess once and for all, have a political reset and make some fundamental decisions about what kind of country we want to be ourselves.


But were not going to be allowed to leave, that much is clear, so its either some kind of ersatz bodge job leave that gives the failed political establishment a fig leaf whilst not actually changing anthing or it's face up to reneging entirely on the vote and dealing with the terrible consequences for our political system.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 27, 2018, 05:16:18 PM
Which depends on the Conservative party deciding that it'd like to give government a rest. Or to be overtaken by a remarkable degree of hubris.

Neither of which are impossible under the circumstances, I suppose.


It's no deal or election I think, so the latter. How is either may or any other Tory going to negotiate a deal with the EU that will pass parliament, if this one doesn't? I can't see any other option.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Darles Chickens on November 27, 2018, 05:18:59 PM
Peston reckons that Corbyn's possibly on his way to endorsing a new referendum if May loses the meaningful vote.

Take with a barrelful of Saxa as ever.

https://www.facebook.com/pestonitv/posts/2219151871742879

Quote from: Robert Peston on Facebook
According to senior Labour sources, Corbyn is close to agreeing that shortly (days) after the loss of the meaningful vote by May, he would formally make his party the champion of another referendum or People’s Vote - on the basis that if there is no consensus in parliament on what comes next, the question has to go back to the people.

At this conjuncture, there might well be a clear parliamentary majority for such a referendum - with the choice between May’s deal (as the only negotiated deal) and remaining in the EU - if the Tory MPs who currently say they back a plebiscite stick to their guns.

Edit: Howj Begg already mentioned it in one of the other May/Corbyn/Brexit threads.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 27, 2018, 05:23:19 PM
How would Corbyn campaign though? He's ruled out supporting May's deal, he's ruled out no deal and he's repeatedly ruled out remaining in the EU.

He'd be pushing for a referendum in which he couldn't publicly support any of the options that could potentially be on the ballot.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 27, 2018, 05:23:54 PM
A referendum on a deal parliament just decided was a non starter?

So the question is what? Mays deal or no deal?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on November 27, 2018, 05:24:37 PM
'No deal' is then only way to actually leave the EU, draw a line under this toxic mess once and for all, have a political reset and make some fundamental decisions about what kind of country we want to be ourselves the US and China want us to be.

Come on, bigs. Cough up the AnCap subreddit you’re getting this from.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 27, 2018, 05:28:53 PM
Can referenda have more than 2 choices?

- Mays deal that everyone thinks is shit and just got defeated in parliament
- No deal which will literally KILL US ALL
- Remain (but why should leave accept it if remain didn't the first? Best of 3?)

Anything else? you presumably can't put options like Norway or Canada if they haven't been agreed with the EU?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on November 27, 2018, 05:32:51 PM
"Canada" wouldn't mean anything.

EEA membership might be possible as an option, as I suspect that this wouldn't be difficult to agree in principle with the EU. Arguably, however, that's missing the point that this is a transitional arrangement under review as well.

Quote
Can referenda have more than 2 choices?
Referendums can, certainly. Although you'd probably want to use one of those runoff voting systems that the English apparently despise.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Howj Begg on November 27, 2018, 05:33:25 PM
How would Corbyn campaign though? He's ruled out supporting May's deal, he's ruled out no deal and he's repeatedly ruled out remaining in the EU.

He'd be pushing for a referendum in which he couldn't publicly support any of the options that could potentially be on the ballot.

I mean this is a failure of imagination right here. Relatively easy for his team to come up with rhetoric around the withdrawal agreement failing the 6 tests, so it's time to put it to the people for a vote, and Remain clearly has to be an option on there. If he wants he could use the emerging illegality of the Leave campaign, although I guess he won't.

Time again pundits, including us, have failed to see the numerous ways in which Hard Brexit, median Brexit, Brexit full stop can be undercut by a) parliament b) the Tory party itself c) the public at large, so sticking to some kind of 2016 narrative about this is not really going to get us anywhere. It's failing to read all the signs.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on November 27, 2018, 05:34:48 PM
"Canada" wouldn't mean anything.



It’d at least be consistent with the original referendum then.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on November 27, 2018, 05:36:14 PM
Can referenda have more than 2 choices?

- Mays deal that everyone thinks is shit and just got defeated in parliament
- No deal which will literally KILL US ALL
- Remain (but why should leave accept it if remain didn't the first? Best of 3?)

So Leavers are happy to split the leave vote in that way and won't have a hissy fit if they lose?  Bring it on, then.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 27, 2018, 05:36:55 PM
Can referenda have more than 2 choices?

- Mays deal that everyone thinks is shit and just got defeated in parliament
- No deal which will literally KILL US ALL
- Remain

Anything else? you presumably can't put options like Norway or Canada if they haven't been agreed with the EU?

Theoretically, yes, but there's no way Brexiteers would accept that as the Leave vote would be split into two. Remain would walk it.

You could add the EEA option but, again, the EU haven't agreed to that and can't as part of the withdrawal agreement. It can only be negotiated after 29th March.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 27, 2018, 05:42:04 PM
I mean this is a failure of imagination right here. Relatively easy for his team to come up with rhetoric around the withdrawal agreement failing the 6 tests, so it's time to put it to the people for a vote, and Remain clearly has to be an option on there. If he wants he could use the emerging illegality of the Leave campaign, although I guess he won't.

Time again pundits, including us, have failed to see the numerous ways in which Hard Brexit, median Brexit, Brexit full stop can be undercut by a) parliament b) the Tory party itself c) the public at large, so sticking to some kind of 2016 narrative about this is not really going to get us anywhere. It's failing to read all the signs.

But which option could Corbyn campaign on? The only realistic option is Remain and that would go down like a sack of shit in the leave voting Labour heartlands and the media would have a field day.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 27, 2018, 05:42:58 PM
This is the whole problem, having another referendum isn't a trivial thing, it'll take months, requires primary legislation and considering non of them can agree on anything about thw deal how are they going to agree on what the question in a referendum should be? Itd be arguably almost as divisive an issue.


And then the referendum itself, if we got that far, would be the last 2 years of shitshow except 10 times worse.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Howj Begg on November 27, 2018, 05:45:22 PM
But which option could Corbyn campaign on? The only realistic option is Remain and that would go down like a sack of shit in the leave voting Labour heartlands and the media would have a field day.

Why does he have to campaign for Remain? He just have to campaign for the vote. Besides which he and Starmer, can artfully frame their position as Remain is better than May's deal - which is the only one in town, the EU have said so etc - , and here's why. That's completely plausible.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on November 27, 2018, 05:46:41 PM
This is the whole problem, having another referendum isn't a trivial thing, it'll take months, requires primary legislation and considering non of them can agree on anything about thw deal how are they going to agree on what the question in a referendum should be? Itd be arguably almost as divisive an issue.

Yes - if only the first referendum had been clear in the first place about what leaving the EU actually meant!  It's almost as if the entire situation is a stupid thing to have occurred.

But inside the head of the die-hard Leaver beats the deafening drum BREXIT MEANS BREXIT WE MUST LEAVE THE EU AT ALL COSTS - so reality's nuances will never trouble their dreams.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on November 27, 2018, 05:48:40 PM
Brexit Thread >>
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on November 27, 2018, 05:51:26 PM
Brexit Thread >>

Fuck; sorry.  I keep forgetting.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on November 27, 2018, 05:52:58 PM
It's no deal or election I think, so the latter.
Or Tory leadership contest, and pass the current deal with a bunch of noise about how much they don't like and they'll get out of it when they can.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on November 27, 2018, 06:00:45 PM
But which option could Corbyn campaign on? The only realistic option is Remain and that would go down like a sack of shit in the leave voting Labour heartlands and the media would have a field day.

They wouldn't need to have a position, their position could be "we'll do what you tell us".
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 27, 2018, 06:11:31 PM
That's not exactly likely to inspire confidence after last time is it?


I think Corbyns strategy on brexit the last 2 years has being a political masterstroke, but it's coming to the end of its lifespan now and he needs some clearer answers.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on November 27, 2018, 06:26:19 PM
I think given the second referendum is to either rubber stamp Brexit or ditch it, so it'd be fair to say 'we'll do what you want'

Ha -

https://voxpoliticalonline.com/2018/11/27/brexit-are-tory-whips-threatening-their-own-mps-after-bid-to-win-labour-support-failed/

Quote
UPDATE: The figure of Labour MPs who have not confirmed their position on Theresa May's Brexit deal has just reduced to 11.

Labour MP @grahamemorris has confirmed that he is voting against Theresa May's deal.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 27, 2018, 06:30:13 PM
I think given the second referendum is to either rubber stamp Brexit or ditch it, so it'd be fair to say 'we'll do what you want'


The existence of a second referendum proves they won't/can't 'do what we want'.


But considering you think it's that simple, what do you think the question should be?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on November 27, 2018, 06:32:14 PM
1) Current deal
2) Different deal (to be negotiated and brought forward in a referendum)
3) No deal
4) Remain in the EU on current terms subject to future renegotiation

My guess is the results would be approx:

1) 12%
2) 20%
3) 16%
4) 52%

Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on November 27, 2018, 06:34:15 PM
Runoff?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on November 27, 2018, 06:36:06 PM
Are you allowed to have rhetorical questions in referendums? "Why don't you stop being a fuckwit?" (No choices.)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on November 27, 2018, 06:38:09 PM
Anyway, I doubt the Tories will call a referendum off the back of a defeat in the commons and May has sounded the most concrete of all on that subject.

That leaves her resignation or a General Election in the face of a clear and unassailable defeat.

A general election is pretty much the only way of smoking out Labour on Brexit. Corbyn can say whatever he likes in a tv debate as there won't be time to go into that much detail, and the leave crowd simply don't care about details which is why we are here in the first place. I bet you any money an audience member will shout WHY DONT YOU JUST GET ON AND DO BREXIT at some point

In a GE Labour would have to decide whether to switch to a Remain or BRINO position.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on November 27, 2018, 06:38:19 PM
The existence of a second referendum proves they won't/can't 'do what we want'.

Because the first referendum was too vague, yes, and doesn't pinpoint what any Leave voter wanted.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 27, 2018, 06:38:56 PM
1) Current deal
2) Different deal (to be negotiated and brought forward in a referendum)
3) No deal
4) Remain in the EU on current terms subject to future renegotiation

My guess is the results would be approx:

1) 12%
2) 20%
3) 16%
4) 52%


And you think parliament will agree on this referendum, even though it's clearly rigged?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 27, 2018, 06:43:58 PM
Because the first referendum was too vague, yes, and doesn't pinpoint what any Leave voter wanted.


Name me any other referendum ever that specified how either of the choices would be done? That's the politicians job isn't it? A referendum is designed to settle a broad matter of principle, its then up to parliament to decide how specifically the decision should be done, something our politicians have shown themselves both unable and unwilling to do.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on November 27, 2018, 06:47:00 PM
That's because every country up to now has never been retarded enough to set a yes or no/binary option in a referendum on such a complex, multifaceted subject.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on November 27, 2018, 06:49:36 PM
The vagueness isn't just about the technicalities of implementation, it's about what the 'principle' at stake is.

The Leave campaign was mostly run on things that have little to do with the EU - a mix of funding promises that are entirely within the gift of the UK (as a member state or otherwise), sending the buggers the back (but not really focused on Poles or Romanians, certainly not to the exclusions of Muslims) and, being generous, vague notions of sovereignty (that any sort of Leaving mostly seems to endanger more than anything else) in combination with waffling about trade deals (and international agreements inherently involve the surrender of sovereignty on some reading).

There's no implementation that seems to tackle the 'principles' that the campaign was run on, and there's no clear principles in the question itself. Joining the EEA meets the letter of the 'Leave the EU' choice.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on November 27, 2018, 06:50:16 PM
Name me any other referendum ever that specified how either of the choices would be done?

Just stating what Leave meant would have been fine, no?  So people knew what they were voting for, and the politicians responsible for taking us out of the EU knew what was wanted?

No nuts and bolts of "how" needed.  Just something - anything - of the "what".  And then we wouldn't have ended up in this mess.


I know - mad stuff.  But I favour democracy rather than "JUST DO WHAT I HAVE IMAGINED THIS IS ALL ABOUT!!"
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on November 27, 2018, 06:51:08 PM
Hence why some people genuinely think the referendum result meant "What we want Mr. europeans or NO Deal"
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on November 27, 2018, 06:53:17 PM
A sensible approach might have been to set up a body that would investigate what people wanted from leaving the EU, prior to issuing an Article 50 notification.

But of course, a Conservative government - whose handling of 'Brexit' is what people were voting for if they voted to Leave - has plenty of reasons not to do that (because it would mostly be domestic policy unrelated to the EU, and some racism) and plenty of reasons to rush us into a nonsense.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 27, 2018, 06:54:25 PM
That's because every country up to now has never been retarded enough to set a yes or no/binary option in a referendum on such a complex, multifaceted subject.


Well yeah, we mostly wouldn't have a referendum on subjects like that. But we did, and they all voted to have it, so its more than a little bit damaging to pretend after the fact its not legitimate.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on November 27, 2018, 06:55:44 PM
Well yeah, we mostly wouldn't have a referendum on subjects like that. But we did, and they all voted to have it, so its more than a little bit damaging to pretend after the fact its not legitimate.

Oof you made me cringe with that one.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on November 27, 2018, 06:55:50 PM
It's seemingly more damaging - looking at the last two years of paralysis - to pretend that it was legitimate.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 27, 2018, 06:57:38 PM
A sensible approach might have been to set up a body that would investigate what people wanted from leaving the EU, prior to issuing an Article 50 notification.

But of course, a Conservative government - whose handling of 'Brexit' is what people were voting for if they voted to Leave - has plenty of reasons not to do that (because it would mostly be domestic policy unrelated to the EU, and some racism) and plenty of reasons to rush us into a nonsense.

You can't just blame the tories though, they all had loads of debates about it for years and all parties overwhelmingly voted by 544-53 to have a referendum on the terms we did. In what sense is that not democratic? And not damaging to say, nah that thing we all agreed should happen on these terms wasn't legitimate?


I'm sure the one thing this whole debacle demonstrates is a total failure in almost every way by the entire political class.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on November 27, 2018, 06:59:18 PM
Democracies can still vote to undertake anti-democratic acts. Surely you'd agree with this?

Posing nonsense referendums without serious consideration of what a particular results might entail is one of these things.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on November 27, 2018, 07:03:38 PM
Quote
I'm sure the one thing this whole debacle demonstrates is a total failure in almost every way by the entire political class.

And you yourself have indicated that the referendum wasn't set seriously or earnestly.

While it's a bit funny that they then had to deal with the fallout of just enough of the Great British Public picking the prank option, the impact on domestic politics (in terms of paralysing any pushback against austerity, against punitive retractions of services and cash benefits, in terms of further endorsing racists and their racist policies) and the possibly miserableness that might still lie ahead rather takes the shine off.

Edit: Oh, and that the tossers mostly directly responsible have either cleared off for an easy retirement or continue to build their careers on lies and hatred.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 27, 2018, 07:17:07 PM
Democracies can still vote to undertake anti-democratic acts. Surely you'd agree with this?

Sure, but how does having another referendum repair the damage? You can't unshoot yourself and 2 wrongs don't make a right, if having a referendum about such complex issues was bad then, why is it ok now?

I've said right from the beginning the politicians have to sort this one out now.

Quote
Posing nonsense referendums without serious consideration of what a particular results might entail is one of these things.


You latter point there completely applies to the large majority of MPs who both voted for a referendum and then supported remain, even though only leave ever seem to get blamed for it.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on November 27, 2018, 07:25:52 PM
I would rather not have a second referendum either, and that our representatives called time on the joke.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 27, 2018, 07:32:17 PM
I think that is basically what will happen.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on November 27, 2018, 07:39:18 PM
Take this elsewhere, please. >> CaBrEXIT>>
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 27, 2018, 10:13:32 PM
They wouldn't need to have a position, their position could be "we'll do what you tell us".

You understand how absurd that sounds? The leader of the opposition pushing the government for a referendum, then refusing to campaign because he can’t be seen to agree with any of the options in public because it will hurt him politically?

It would be nothing short of cowardice. A total dereliction of duty. He has to get off the fence.

Take this elsewhere, please. >> CaBrEXIT>>

Sorry, but the two subjects are completely interlinked now. Her entire tenure in Downing Street has been tied to Brexit.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: finnquark on November 27, 2018, 10:31:18 PM
Been temporarily following all the Tory boys on twitter throughout this crisis, yer Tom Newton Dunns, yer Christopher Hopes, yer Asa Bennetts. As I mentioned in the other thread, ERG man Chris Davies says he will vote for Mrs May's deal, as not to would make a people's vote more likely. But then Tommy Newton Dunn claims some Cabinet members reckon she could lose by around 200.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 27, 2018, 10:33:50 PM
That's why I don't think he wants a referendum as he will finally have to abandon his fantasy position and make a definitive, unambiguous decision, and it would effectively have to be to renage on the first referendum and remain as he clearly couldn't support May after coming out so strongly against her and he appears to have ruled out no deal. That would be very damaging to him I think.


Corbyn would much rather an election and an attempt to try and get some minor variation on May's deal that he can sell as more in line with Labour's value whilst still 'respecting the referendum'.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on November 27, 2018, 10:42:18 PM
That's why I don't think he wants a referendum as he will finally have to abandon his fantasy position and make a definitive, unambiguous decision, and it would effectively have to be to renage on the first referendum and remain as he clearly couldn't support May after coming out so strongly against her and he appears to have ruled out no deal. That would be very damaging to him I think.

Well hopefully he can communicate (correctly) that the first referendum was built on lies and vagueness and indicate that a second referendum is needed for clarification of next steps.

It's just basic democracy really.  Maybe some of the more stubborn leavers might still be persuaded on this basis; who knows.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: chveik on November 27, 2018, 10:47:56 PM
Take this elsewhere, please. >> CaBrEXIT>>

they're all brexit threads by the time etc.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 27, 2018, 10:48:23 PM
He doesn't believe that though, it's an asinine, massively point missing, head in the sand position and I think he's a lot better than that. He's said loads of times that a lot of the concerns that lead to the vote are real and is obviously very sceptical about the EUs embedded neoliberism. The problem is May's deal leaves him nowhere else to go I think.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on November 27, 2018, 10:52:02 PM
they're all brexit threads by the time etc.

I don't care, to be honest. Just want her gone and Brexit stopped.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on November 27, 2018, 10:55:03 PM
He doesn't believe that though, it's an asinine, massively point missing, head in the sand position and I think he's a lot better than that. He's said loads of times that a lot of the concerns that lead to the vote are real and is obviously very sceptical about the EUs embedded neoliberism. The problem is May's deal leaves him nowhere else to go I think.

It's not a head in the sand position to say that the issue is more complex than people first assumed.  In lots of ways it means acknowledging the concerns and the scepticism and emphasising his initial "70% in favour" stance.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 27, 2018, 10:59:31 PM
It's not a head in the sand position to acknowledge that the issue is more complex than people first assumed.


Indeed, its a lot more complex that some dumb racists fooled by Putins lying bus. It's almost as if there is a huge structural failure of establishment politics and neoliberalism resulting in voters taking any chance they are given to rebel against a system that has totally fucked them over.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on November 27, 2018, 11:04:46 PM
Indeed, its a lot more complex that some dumb racists fooled by Putins lying bus. It's almost as if there is a huge structural failure of establishment politics and neoliberalism resulting in voters taking any chance they are given to rebel against a system that has totally fucked them over.

And yet you have faith in that very system not taking us from the EU to a US-UK trade deal in due course.

Or you want the US-UK trade deal.


Anyway stop over-simplifying everything to the point that my brain keeps freezing.  You know that neoliberalism doesn't begin and end with the EU, so stop trolling us with it.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Captain Z on November 27, 2018, 11:11:25 PM
I think the options on the new referendum should be:

BREXIT MEANS BREXIT
JUST GET ON WITH IT
LEAVE MEANS LEAVE
HARD BREXIT NOW
WERE ARE LEAVING END OFF
WILL OF THE PEOPLE
TREASON
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: olliebean on November 27, 2018, 11:19:18 PM
Surely there has to be an option on it for people to vote for another referendum.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pigamus on November 27, 2018, 11:23:41 PM
I want the first referendum again, the 1975 one. Peter Shore, Jeremy Thorpe, Barbara Castle, all that. Lovely.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: mothman on November 27, 2018, 11:28:15 PM
It’s pretty obvious the ERG-grade Leavers are terrified of a second referendum/people’s vote. Even though I don’t think anybody who isn’t hopelessly deluded would think a Remain result is now (or ever was) a sure thing. But if it was Remain they know it’d be game over, all their dreams torn asunder, no PM Boris, all their rich friends who’d been hoping to be able to treat their employees like serfs won’t talk to them anymore...

The reason I say this - hashtag-not-a-Brexit-post - is that I wonder if that fear might cause them to support the deal. To them, no deal is better than a bad deal; but a bad deal is better than any possibility of remaining. A bad deal lets them kick their own can down the road; “if Corbyn can kick his own people’s-vote can down the road,” they might say, “then why can’t we?”
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on November 27, 2018, 11:32:11 PM
I want the first referendum again, the 1975 one. Peter Shore, Jeremy Thorpe, Barbara Castle, all that. Lovely.

Norris McWhirter, Ross McWhirter, Roy Castle and all that lot.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: canadagoose on November 27, 2018, 11:39:40 PM
I want the first referendum again, the 1975 one.
Have you just had a change of heart?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on November 28, 2018, 07:21:07 AM
It’s pretty obvious the ERG-grade Leavers are terrified of a second referendum/people’s vote. Even though I don’t think anybody who isn’t hopelessly deluded would think a Remain result is now (or ever was) a sure thing. But if it was Remain they know it’d be game over, all their dreams torn asunder, no PM Boris, all their rich friends who’d been hoping to be able to treat their employees like serfs won’t talk to them anymore...

The reason I say this - hashtag-not-a-Brexit-post - is that I wonder if that fear might cause them to support the deal. To them, no deal is better than a bad deal; but a bad deal is better than any possibility of remaining. A bad deal lets them kick their own can down the road; “if Corbyn can kick his own people’s-vote can down the road,” they might say, “then why can’t we?”

It's pretty clear they hate this deal even more tban that, given it provides hardly anything they were really looking for and/or they see it as a "defeat" for the nation (despite it being their fault in the first place).
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 28, 2018, 07:25:10 AM
It's pretty clear they hate this deal even more tban that, given it provides hardly anything they were really looking for and/or they see it as a "defeat" for the nation (despite it being their fault in the first place).


Not the 544 MPs who voted to have the referendum under these terms?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on November 28, 2018, 08:30:16 AM
Were the terms of the referendum voted on? Or just that there would be a referendum?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 28, 2018, 08:42:28 AM
Were the terms of the referendum voted on? Or just that there would be a referendum?

Its an act of parliament and they had several debates about it.

Anyway, from the Sun, every Cabbers goto for politics -

(https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/1067542774399057927/Lk8NECoG?format=jpg&name=600x314)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on November 28, 2018, 08:44:05 AM
Its an act of parliament and they had several debates about it.

So were the terms voted on by the numbers you mentioned, or just that there should be a referendum?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Urinal Cake on November 28, 2018, 08:48:00 AM
A second referendum will extend the deadline which I think will play into the hands of leavers since now they can get the deal they want.

Even if no deal is what they will take- as Mothman said.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on November 28, 2018, 09:11:25 AM
So were the terms voted on by the numbers you mentioned, or just that there should be a referendum?
The text of the question and answers were voted on : http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/36/contents/enacted

The meaning and consequences of either choice were not defined beyond that at that point.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on November 28, 2018, 09:12:28 AM
A second referendum will extend the deadline which I think will play into the hands of leavers since now they can get the deal they want.
How?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Captain Z on November 28, 2018, 10:30:40 AM
Its an act of parliament and they had several debates about it.

Anyway, from the Sun, every Cabbers goto for politics -

(https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/1067542774399057927/Lk8NECoG?format=jpg&name=600x314)

Some of those 107 Tories can be whipped into voting in favour, some will abstain rather than vote against. Same goes for Lib Dems. DUP can be bribed. A few Labour rebels/abstainees. It will pass.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 28, 2018, 10:39:22 AM
Once they realise that a vote against means "no deal" and not "referendum" or "election" or "extension" or "cancellation" or "Norway" or "Canada", I think it will pass easily. There's no majority for any alternative, there's nothing else on offer from the EU and there's no time left for a referendum, let alone any consensus as to what the options should be.

Nobody wants their fingerprints on "no deal" except for the Torykipper mentalists and Kate Hoey.

It might take a couple of attempts, but it'll pass.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: ZoyzaSorris on November 28, 2018, 10:40:32 AM
It wont. The Tory rebels will probably dwindle a bit on the day but there is no incentive whatsoever for anyone beyond that.
Because there are clear alternatives. As a result no deal - which we know that no government here or the EU will allow to happen - simply isnt a credible threat.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: greencalx on November 28, 2018, 10:45:41 AM
It wont. The Tory rebels will probably dwindle a bit on the day but there is no incentive whatsoever for anyone beyond that.
Because there are clear alternatives. As a result no deal - which we know that no government here or the EU will allow to happen - simply isnt a credible threat.

Even biggy's admitted that "No deal" doesn't actually mean "No deal" but a basket of ad-hoc deals to paper over the cracks until we get our collective arse together. One would imagine that such a collection of deals would amount to something like 500 pages of text with various assurances about the NI border and contributions to the EU budget so that goods and services can continue to flow freely in the short term.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 28, 2018, 10:48:08 AM
It wont. The Tory rebels will probably dwindle a bit on the day but there is no incentive whatsoever for anyone beyond that.
Because there are clear alternatives. As a result no deal - which we know that no government here or the EU will allow to happen - simply isnt a credible threat.

There are alternatives, but no majority for any of them to pass through parliament and few that the EU would even accept.

All while the clock ticks down.

The thing about "no deal" is that nobody has to vote for it. It just happens by default.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on November 28, 2018, 10:49:27 AM
Even biggy's admitted that "No deal" doesn't actually mean "No deal" but a basket of ad-hoc deals to paper over the cracks until we get our collective arse together. One would imagine that such a collection of deals would amount to something like 500 pages of text with various assurances about the NI border and contributions to the EU budget so that goods and services can continue to flow freely in the short term.

You mean, like the withdrawal agreement?

I still fail to understand how an agreement on how to proceed will be reached in two months when they've been squabbling for two years over exactly that.

(https://cl.ly/747673e205a0/Screenshot%2525202018-11-28%25252010.46.06.png)

Worth a punt?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on November 28, 2018, 10:50:35 AM
May herself blurted out that a possible outcome to a vote defeat could be no Brexit and has been trying to backtrack ever since. We all know the EU would prefer us not to leave and beyond some posturing from some European leaders they’d take that option in a shot.

The result of a deal vote defeat is not an immediate No Deal Brexit. All MPs know this. Also many Tory Leaver MPs see her deal as BRINO not Brexit.

Nothing is guaranteed, especially in the bizzaro universe we’ve found ourselves in the last few years,  but a deal vote defeat for the government still looks very likely.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pigamus on November 28, 2018, 10:50:59 AM
The Daily Heil's U-turn is pretty hilarious. Will their own readers turn on them?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: ZoyzaSorris on November 28, 2018, 10:56:21 AM
There are alternatives, but no majority for any of them to pass through parliament and few that the EU would even accept.

All while the clock ticks down.

The thing about "no deal" is that nobody has to vote for it. It just happens by default.

Extending the A50 deadline will pose no problem at all when neither side want a crash-out no deal.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on November 28, 2018, 10:57:26 AM
May herself blurted out that a possible outcome to a vote defeat could be no Brexit and has been trying to backtrack ever since.

She said it twice.

She's trying to threaten Leavers with a 'no Brexit' outcome and Remainers with a 'No deal' outcome, and no one's buying her bullshit.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: greencalx on November 28, 2018, 11:07:27 AM
You mean, like the withdrawal agreement?

Bingo.

She said it twice.

Once in Parliament. The first time could have been ascribed to a slip of the tongue. But the second...
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 28, 2018, 11:08:56 AM
Even biggy's admitted that "No deal" doesn't actually mean "No deal" but a basket of ad-hoc deals to paper over the cracks until we get our collective arse together. One would imagine that such a collection of deals would amount to something like 500 pages of text with various assurances about the NI border and contributions to the EU budget so that goods and services can continue to flow freely in the short term.


Thats basically what it means, no deal doesn't mean we fall off a cliff and literally have no arrangements about anything - it means we don't have a single overarching deal. There are hundreds of briefing documents about what the ad hoc temporary arrangements would be on the gov site. The spectre of the mad max no deal is a deliberate psychological operation designed to terrorise us into May's bodge job, or to just remain.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Urinal Cake on November 28, 2018, 11:10:38 AM
How?
May is rushing this through because of the deadline. If the second vote is leave again some members might be emboldened and push her and her deal out.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 28, 2018, 11:17:35 AM
May herself blurted out that a possible outcome to a vote defeat could be no Brexit and has been trying to backtrack ever since. We all know the EU would prefer us not to leave and beyond some posturing from some European leaders they’d take that option in a shot.

The result of a deal vote defeat is not an immediate No Deal Brexit. All MPs know this. Also many Tory Leaver MPs see her deal as BRINO not Brexit.

Nothing is guaranteed, especially in the bizzaro universe we’ve found ourselves in the last few years,  but a deal vote defeat for the government still looks very likely.

Extending the A50 deadline will pose no problem at all when neither side want a crash-out no deal.

The EU have said they will consider extending or pausing Article 50 in the case of some extraordinary circumstance that prevents us from continuing negotiations such as a change of government, but they won't do it because we can't make our minds up. Don't forget that their no deal prep is far more advanced than ours. It'll hurt but they'll be ready.

By triggering article 50 in the first place, we sent the clearest instruction to the EU that we'd be leaving precisely 24 months after the notification regardless of the outcome of negotiations. MPs voted for it by 461 votes to 89. The opposition used a three line whip to force it through. They knew what they were voting for. They knew that "no deal" was a possibility.

The UK cannot claim ignorance.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Howj Begg on November 28, 2018, 11:18:43 AM
We'll also find out if A50 can be unilateraly revoked by Parliament this week

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/27/brexit-european-court-to-rule-on-whether-article-50-can-be-reversed

I suspect the result of this will be at the back of some MPs minds
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on November 28, 2018, 11:21:29 AM

Thats basically what it means, no deal doesn't mean we fall off a cliff and literally have no arrangements about anything - it means we don't have a single overarching deal. There are hundreds of briefing documents about what the ad hoc temporary arrangements would be on the gov site. The spectre of the mad max no deal is a deliberate psychological operation designed to terrorise us into May's bodge job, or to just remain.

How would that differ from the withdrawal agreement?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 28, 2018, 11:28:32 AM
We'd actually have left the EU.


Give is giving his wholeheartedly backing to May's deal, yet again proving what a Machiavellian sneak he is. How can you campaign for leave then back this?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 28, 2018, 11:29:11 AM
We'll also find out if A50 can be unilateraly revoked by Parliament this week

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/27/brexit-european-court-to-rule-on-whether-article-50-can-be-reversed

I suspect the result of this will be at the back of some MPs minds

It can be in the back of their minds, but there's no parliamentary majority to make it happen. It's useful in so much that it sets a legal precedent and will no doubt be useful if anyone needed to face criminal charges over their conduct in office regarding Brexit in the future.

How would that differ from the withdrawal agreement?

It will only cover the absolute bare minimum to stop the global and local economy from imploding. It's pure damage limitation and unsustainable long-term.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 28, 2018, 11:36:06 AM
Why would parliament vote to revoke article 50 when they overwhelmingly voted to trigger it?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on November 28, 2018, 11:36:33 AM
CHANDEG ARE MINES
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on November 28, 2018, 11:37:35 AM
We'd actually have left the EU.


Give is giving his wholeheartedly backing to May's deal, yet again proving what a Machiavellian sneak he is. How can you campaign for leave then back this?

He unites all sides by being such a fucking despicable piece of shit human. He could offer me a lifetime of riches and earthly pleasures and I'd still tell him to get graved. Some things shall not pass. Some people you would happily watch the life exiting their body.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on November 28, 2018, 11:38:28 AM
Why would parliament vote to revoke article 50 when they overwhelmingly voted to trigger it?

Only 4 Genious?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 28, 2018, 11:40:16 AM
It was good when he totally fucked Boris over though wasn't it.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on November 28, 2018, 11:45:24 AM
No. It was two supremely privileged old-money toffs having a pissing contest and the only ones who got wet were the proles.

See also: everything that’s been done in the name of Brexit.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on November 28, 2018, 11:48:00 AM
It was good when he totally fucked Boris over though wasn't it.

Yeah it was. Maybe Pob’s greatest gift to humanity was destroying Boris’ best shot at the top job. Totally for self centred reasons, of course. He should of fucked off himself immediately after, though.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: jobotic on November 28, 2018, 11:48:13 AM
So even this government of vermin have admitted that we will be worse off however we leave.

How anyone could advocate brexit in any form is unfathomable unless you really don't think that those that will be fucked over by it (the poorest) matter.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 28, 2018, 11:57:25 AM
So even this government of vermin have admitted that we will be worse off however we leave.

Fake financial predictions that are always wrong using the same old models that are always wrong you mean?

Not just their inherent wrongness, but the fact they project a scenario where we just leave and literally nothing else is different, as if there are no policy changes in such a scenario, or different behaviour.

They're not worth the paper they're written on and indeed are actively weaponised as a propaganda tool to try and strongarm people into doing what they're told. Can you name any similar predictions that turned out remotely correct? We can't get an economic prediction 6 months into the future under predictable circumstances correct, let along years and decades.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on November 28, 2018, 12:08:48 PM
Quote
Fake financial predictions that are always wrong using the same old models that are always wrong you mean?

It's true no financial predictions have ever been right ever and so you're right

Clown. Just admit your fingers are in your ears and type LALALA
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 28, 2018, 12:10:51 PM
It's true no financial predictions have ever been right ever and so you're right

Clown. Just admit your fingers are in your ears and type LALALA


Go on then, lets have a few examples of similar financial projections that turned out to be correct.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: jobotic on November 28, 2018, 12:16:46 PM
From day one this has been a Tory enterprise. Lexiters are either in denial or not "L" at all.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on November 28, 2018, 12:17:45 PM

Go on then, lets have a few examples of similar financial projections that turned out to be correct.

Experts are so dumb.

(http://i0.wp.com/eveningharold.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/michael-gove-looking-odd.jpg)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on November 28, 2018, 12:18:46 PM
From day one this has been a Tory enterprise. Lexiters are either in denial or not "L" at all.

Especially ones who claim to be 'L' but use the far right as a veiled threat when they don't get their way.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 28, 2018, 12:24:17 PM
Just as a reminder we were told that a leave vote at the referendum would lead to an instant recession and a loss of 5.5% of GDP, 500,000 job losses and an emergency budget, all of which were wrong. These are just predictions over a couple of years, let along decades.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on November 28, 2018, 12:36:20 PM
Just as a reminder we were told that a leave vote at the referendum would lead to an instant recession and a loss of 5.5% of GDP, 500,000 job losses and an emergency budget, all of which were wrong. These are just predictions over a couple of years, let along decades.

No, that's what was predicted by some would happen after Brexit, not after the referendum.

It's pretty fucking obvious that predictions were based on different forms of Brexit, ie. single market/customs union etc so some are more alarming.

Brexit hasn't happened yet so none of those can either be right or wrong.

Hammond has already said he would rebudget depending on the Brexit, and the job losses look likely to be in that region if customs arrangements become onerous and businesses pull out of the UK, affecting the supply chain and supporting business.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 28, 2018, 12:47:13 PM
Fake financial predictions that are always wrong using the same old models that are always wrong you mean?

Not just their inherent wrongness, but the fact they project a scenario where we just leave and literally nothing else is different, as if there are no policy changes in such a scenario, or different behaviour.

They're not worth the paper they're written on and indeed are actively weaponised as a propaganda tool to try and strongarm people into doing what they're told. Can you name any similar predictions that turned out remotely correct? We can't get an economic prediction 6 months into the future under predictable circumstances correct, let along years and decades.

We touched on this in the previous thread, but what exactly would we change that would result in the economy not being harmed in some way? Global trade is constantly moving toward harmonisation of standards and removal of barriers to trade. Brexit is the first time two trading partners have negotiated to erect barriers to trade and to leave their economies weaker than when they started.

So what is the answer? Where do we go with our economy that is contrary to the rest of the planet, yet somehow allows us to thrive?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on November 28, 2018, 12:49:29 PM
Please keep discussions of this sort to the Brexit thread. Biggy thinks Brexit is good, we know this.

We can all (Biggy included) talk about the effects of her strategy without getting into whether or not we think Brexit is good.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 28, 2018, 12:50:42 PM
No, that's what was predicted by some would happen after Brexit, not after the referendum.

No, it was the IMF and the treasury and for the year after the vote. The IMF said the UK would slip into recession in 2017 because of the uncertainty of voting leave.

The IMF of course, wrong about everything in a way that causes untold damage.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on November 28, 2018, 12:51:26 PM

Go on then, lets have a few examples of similar financial projections that turned out to be correct.

https://www.intheblack.com/articles/2015/07/07/6-economists-who-predicted-the-global-financial-crisis-and-why-we-should-listen-to-them-from-now-on
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 28, 2018, 12:56:19 PM
I predicted the global financial crisis. The woman who cleans the toilets in Greggs predicted it.

Weirdly the very people who didn't predict it are the very same people telling us now that we're doomed if we leave.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on November 28, 2018, 12:58:11 PM
Give is giving his wholeheartedly backing to May's deal, yet again proving what a Machiavellian sneak he is. How can you campaign for leave then back this?

Yes I call him “Give” as well, such is his very nature.

“Gove” would make a fantastic verb, come to think of it.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on November 28, 2018, 12:58:44 PM
Fuck me, biggy, you don't half talk some shite.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on November 28, 2018, 01:00:26 PM
Yeah it was. Maybe Pob’s greatest gift to humanity was destroying Boris’ best shot at the top job. Totally for self centred reasons, of course. He should of fucked off himself immediately after, though.

Except Boris is likely to reach the top job anyway, I suspect.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on November 28, 2018, 01:01:23 PM
Fake financial predictions that are always wrong using the same old models that are always wrong you mean?

Not just their inherent wrongness, but the fact they project a scenario where we just leave and literally nothing else is different, as if there are no policy changes in such a scenario, or different behaviour.

They're not worth the paper they're written on and indeed are actively weaponised as a propaganda tool to try and strongarm people into doing what they're told. Can you name any similar predictions that turned out remotely correct? We can't get an economic prediction 6 months into the future under predictable circumstances correct, let along years and decades.

Whereas subreddit skim-reading genius titbo knows it all, obviously.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 28, 2018, 01:02:31 PM
Fuck me, biggy, you don't half talk some shite.


The all the worlds major financial institutions, governments and NGOs failed to see the financial crisis coming? I thought that was a well acknowledged fact? Remember how the head of the IMF global financial stability committee Gordon Brown gave a speech about a fortnight before it all kicked off claiming what sunlit uplands the worlds economy would enjoy in the coming years?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 28, 2018, 01:03:52 PM
Yes I call him “Give” as well, such is his very nature.

“Gove” would make a fantastic verb, come to think of it.


Nobody can work out what tense it is.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on November 28, 2018, 01:08:49 PM
Nobody can work out what tense it is.

It’s funny because it’s exactly the same as Brexit!
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on November 28, 2018, 01:09:59 PM

The all the worlds major financial institutions, governments and NGOs failed to see the financial crisis coming? I thought that was a well acknowledged fact? Remember how the head of the IMF global financial stability committee Gordon Brown gave a speech about a fortnight before it all kicked off claiming what sunlit uplands the worlds economy would enjoy in the coming years?

...therefore Brexit will be fine?

How can you process such a leap of faith without questioning what you're saying?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 28, 2018, 01:10:54 PM
Whereas subreddit skim-reading genius titbo knows it all, obviously.

If they're so accurate why have they go so many major economic predictions totally wrong though?

Here's Larry Elliot (unfortunetly in the warmongers gazette, but he is good) - https://www.theguardian.com/business/economics-blog/2017/jan/08/economic-forecasts-hardwired-get-things-wrong (https://www.theguardian.com/business/economics-blog/2017/jan/08/economic-forecasts-hardwired-get-things-wrong)


Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on November 28, 2018, 01:12:16 PM

If they're so accurate why have they go so many major economic predictions totally wrong though?

Here's Larry Elliot (unfortunetly in the warmongers gazette, but he is good) - https://www.theguardian.com/business/economics-blog/2017/jan/08/economic-forecasts-hardwired-get-things-wrong (https://www.theguardian.com/business/economics-blog/2017/jan/08/economic-forecasts-hardwired-get-things-wrong)




It doesn't take an expert to understand this though, does it? If we close our borders, trade will grind to a halt.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 28, 2018, 01:20:33 PM
That's not what's happening.

Anyway, if McDonnell accepts the treasury projections as accurate, then there is no alternative brexit he can propose that wouldn't make us 'worse off' either is there?

Quote
Asking an urgent question about the Treasury's forecast of various Brexit scenarios, including the PM's deal, shadow chancellor John McDonnell tells the House of Commons: "We're in the ludicrous position of seeing an analysis produced today on the economic implications of Brexit which is in fact an assessment of the Chequers proposals abandoned months ago.

"The government has been unable to assess the vague, half-baked deal the PM is promising, but what we do know is the latest proposals are worse than even the Chequers deal.

"What the analysis produced by the Treasury today does show us is that the Tories' plans will leave the country poorer."
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on November 28, 2018, 01:32:54 PM
But opening our borders would be a betrayal of Brexit. Right?

Do you see how we have all been utterly shafted by this Tory project, just as people on this board said we would be?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 28, 2018, 01:39:43 PM
The ultimate tory project is the EU itself. Weird how every other country manages to trade without having totally open borders, labour arbitrage and a suffocating political union isnt it?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on November 28, 2018, 01:43:29 PM

Go on then, lets have a few examples of similar financial projections that turned out to be correct.

*Examples requested*

*Examples provided*

*Examples ignored*
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 28, 2018, 01:47:14 PM
*Examples requested*

*Examples provided*

*Examples ignored*



One example of 5 individuals who 'predicted' the crash, like I predicted the crash and loads of people predicted the crash. It wasn't hard to predict that economic meltdown, which makes it all the most disturbing that the Uk and global major economic institutions now lecturing us about the consequences of leaving the EU utterly failed to do so.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Captain Z on November 28, 2018, 01:49:42 PM
The EU and these financial experts don’t seem to understand that we are the United KINGDOM of GREAT Britain! Countries such as (note to sub: find some non-EU countries that can’t produce things the UK does?) will literally be queueing up to buy our (note to sub: find some things that the UK produces that non-EU countries don’t?).
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on November 28, 2018, 02:02:35 PM
The ultimate tory project is the EU itself. Weird how every other country manages to trade without having totally open borders, labour arbitrage and a suffocating political union isnt it?

Christ. Take this to the Brexit thread ffs.

Edit. I'm not calling Biggy Jesus, but...
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on November 28, 2018, 02:05:14 PM
So that Theresa May...I mean this guy's a real jerk!
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 28, 2018, 02:06:41 PM
I can't even believe we're having this argument about economic projections tbh, after the last 10 years.


Just because it fits what you want to happen you're promoting these totally discredited models that you would normally most people on here would rightfully be deeply cynical about.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on November 28, 2018, 02:09:32 PM
I can't even believe we're having this argument about economic projections tbh, after the last 10 years.


Just because it fits what you want to happen you're promoting these totally discredited models that you would normally most people on here would rightfully be deeply cynical about.

Christ. Take it to the Gordon Brown 2010 thread ffs.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: jobotic on November 28, 2018, 02:11:51 PM
The ultimate tory project is the EU itself. Weird how every other country manages to trade without having totally open borders, labour arbitrage and a suffocating political union isnt it?

Just amazing. Fuck this shit.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 28, 2018, 02:13:38 PM
Fine, lets not have this argument. But surely you'd agree its illogical for McDonnell to accept these projects and then critiscing the tories for advocating a deal that would hurt the economy, when any deal he'd advocate would hurt the economy too, unless it was remain?


Labour can't keep having their cake and eating it forever.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on November 28, 2018, 02:21:47 PM
Biggy does a LOGIC.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on November 28, 2018, 02:22:40 PM
I can't wait to see how left wing biggy is when Labour listen to their membership and come out against Brexit.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on November 28, 2018, 02:29:13 PM
You were the one arguing.
Until facts were presented.

Now it's:
Fine, lets not have this argument.

I can see why you try to ignore valid questions so often.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: jobotic on November 28, 2018, 02:34:53 PM
David Davis. Not a Tory. Left-wing.

Quote
In a speech this morning David Davis, the former Brexit secretary, rejected the government’s claim that Brexit would make the UK poorer. He said:

Treasury forecasts in the past have almost never been right and have more often been dramatically wrong.

As the Press Association reports, Davis said predictions the UK economy would contract by 2.1% in the 18 months after the Leave vote were unfounded, with it actually growing by 2.8%. He also said that other negative forecasts around unemployment and family incomes were also unfounded.

None of this spine-chilling nonsense came to pass.

Davis suggested a Brexit scenario in which the UK reverts to a free trade deal with the EU based on World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules could benefit the economy. “It would involve all the choking tentacles of the EU falling away,” he said. As the Press Association reports, Davis said UK exports to non-EU countries had grown four times faster than exports to the EU.

The future of the UK economy does not lie with the EU but with the wider world.


Almost word for word.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 28, 2018, 02:39:25 PM
You were the one arguing.
Until facts were presented.

Now it's:
I can see why you try to ignore valid questions so often.


Present me some examples of oranges.

Here's some apples!

Those aren't oranges?

Shush now, 'facts' mate, 'facts', stop ignoring valid questions.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: greencalx on November 28, 2018, 04:19:01 PM
Please keep discussions of this sort to the Brexit thread. Biggy thinks Brexit is good, we know this.

We can all (Biggy included) talk about the effects of her strategy without getting into whether or not we think Brexit is good.

+1. I would quite like to talk about May's strategy, as this is new ground and it's not clear how it's going to pan out, or even what space of strategies exist.

As I've said in the Corbyn thread, I'm very unclear about what can be achieved by the proposed debate, or indeed her attempt to ingratiate the country, given that it's the politicians she has to get onside. Like I said, I reckon she's trying to force their hand by saying "My deal is what the country wants" and cast naysayers as undemocratic.

Can that possibly work? How intransigent are the ERG? Will they think a Bad Brexit is better than the risk of No Brexit and fall into line? What about the People's Voters? Will they think a Soft Brexit is better than the risk of No Deal and fall into line? Will some of the Labour centrists defy the Corbyn whip, because Corbyn?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: finnquark on November 28, 2018, 04:30:15 PM
In addition to Chris Davies, Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock, ERG member) has intimated that she'll vote for it, as the alternatives (excepting no deal, I assume) are even further from the Brexit envisaged by the ERG. Extrapolating what that means for the rest of the ERG is more difficult, because neither are listed as signatories to the letter that the ERG sent in last February, which might meant they're not the hardest core ERG members.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 28, 2018, 04:42:24 PM
McDonnell now indicating labour are moving more towards a another referendum, although he annoying calls it a people's vote. Which is logically saying labour now support remain, as they have made it quite clear they aren't supporting no deal or Mays bodge and I don't see how another deal that doesn't exist can be on there.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on November 28, 2018, 05:06:23 PM
Sensible. It's what conference decided, after all, and I can't see an alternative anyway.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Mr_Simnock on November 28, 2018, 05:12:23 PM
Quote
Which is logically saying labour now support remain

Well if Labour do come out soon with 'we are now supporting remaining in the EU' then they can basically kiss good bye to ever getting many votes in all the areas which predominantly voted out during the referendum for at least a generation, they arent that stupid surely? A lot of voters will never trust Labour on anything again let alone the economy. Didn't corbyn used to state 'we respect the result of the referendum and so we are leaving on March 29th' when quized about which side of Brexit the party takes?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on November 28, 2018, 05:18:26 PM
ITT: some people who are no longer left-wing since Labour put its intention to democratise the party into practice.

Predictable.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 28, 2018, 05:22:57 PM
From the Guardian;

Corbyn’s spokesman repeated Labour’s opposition to a Norway-style deal - an option that appears to be gaining ground in Westminster. “We’ve said in relation to the Norway option that we just don’t think it works for Britain and we’ve said that all along,” he said.

So that's "no deal" ruled out, "Norway" ruled out, Remain ruled out and May's deal ruled out.

Just "total dereliction of duty" left on the table now.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 28, 2018, 05:25:34 PM
Well if Labour do come out soon with 'we are now supporting remaining in the EU' then they can basically kiss good bye to ever getting many votes in all the areas which predominantly voted out during the referendum for at least a generation, they arent that stupid surely? A lot of voters will never trust Labour on anything again let alone the economy. Didn't corbyn used to state 'we respect the result of the referendum and so we are leaving on March 29th' when quized about which side of Brexit the party takes?


This is why I think May and the EU have him snookered. His current position works when he doesn't have to commit to anything specific himself, but once he does have to what then?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on November 28, 2018, 05:26:38 PM
He could have chosen not to debate.  Since he’s debating we may assume or hope that he will surprise everyone in a positive way.

When is this debate going to be, anyway?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 28, 2018, 05:30:26 PM
From the Guardian;

Corbyn’s spokesman repeated Labour’s opposition to a Norway-style deal - an option that appears to be gaining ground in Westminster. “We’ve said in relation to the Norway option that we just don’t think it works for Britain and we’ve said that all along,” he said.

So that's "no deal" ruled out, "Norway" ruled out, Remain ruled out and May's deal ruled out.

Just "total dereliction of duty" left on the table now.

There's the special deal hes going to negotiate with the EU that will somehow please everyone but has the slight downside of not existing (and won't be on referendum).

So it's going to be remain isn't it?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 28, 2018, 05:33:13 PM
He could have chosen not to debate.  Since he’s debating we may assume or hope that he will surprise everyone in a positive way.

When is this debate going to be, anyway?

Same day as the finale of 'Doctor Who apparently!

What's the point of a TV debate when it's not a public vote? I cant imagine any MP been swayed beyond what will already be debated endlessly in parliament.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on November 28, 2018, 05:36:03 PM
Same day as the finale of 'Doctor Who apparently!

‘Time Fonz and The Fistbump’.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: thraxx on November 28, 2018, 05:41:08 PM
There’s been reports about May’s personal qualities and respect, like that weird article in the grauniad where they interviewed people in Norn Iron and they said they admired her and her spirit even if they didn’t agree with her Brexit plan. That and this debate is just rolling the pitch in case a GE arrives shortly. That’s the only reason I can think this is going ahead. She has proved to be hopeless in debates in the last GE, not that they are debates, I expect that JC will get harranged by gammon faces like he did in the past one. It would be nice if they had proper face to face debates like they have done in France.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 28, 2018, 06:20:04 PM
On the subject of the EU loving centrist wet dream Macron, he's incredibly unpopular on France isn't he, hated even? Approval ratings slower than Trump. That's got to be a stark warning for the rest of Europe that just doubling down on the old sugar coated neoliberalism is not the solution to its existential crisis.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Johnny Yesno on November 28, 2018, 08:28:27 PM
I can't wait to see how left wing biggy is when Labour listen to their membership and come out against Brexit.

Heh! Heh! David Davis biggy will just go back to his libertarian schtick like nothing has happened.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 28, 2018, 08:34:22 PM
Listen to their membership but ignore the 60% of Labour constituencies who voted to leave.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on November 28, 2018, 08:47:28 PM
There might be some other issues that Labour could be engage on with Leave voters, in those constituencies and elsewhere.

Best not though - let's see if we can make British politics about fiddle-arsing about with Brexit for as long as possible, thereby sticking it to the neoliberals and disaster capitalists somehow.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Urinal Cake on November 28, 2018, 09:12:05 PM
I don't think a second referendum will happen. If it did happen I would expect leave to win. People underestimate fatalism.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 28, 2018, 09:28:16 PM
If Labour support a second referendum and campaign for remain, I think that's going to seriously impair their chance to win an election, and be portrayed as a betrayal of their working class heartlands, most of which strongly supported leave.


That said, once we're forced to remain by the political, economic and media establishment, all bets are off about what effect that will have on the balance of power between the parties. Its going to be a disaster for the legitimacy of our political system and undoubtedly will propel ukip or the equivelent back into the picture, but which of the main parties loses the most is anyone's guess. Both are going to be seriously weakened though without doubt.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on November 28, 2018, 09:50:58 PM
/\ nice democracy you’ve got here. Shame if the far right were to accidentally happen to it...

It’s just shameless.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on November 28, 2018, 10:15:28 PM
If Labour support a second referendum and campaign for remain, I think that's going to seriously impair their chance to win an election, and be portrayed as a betrayal of their working class heartlands, most of which strongly supported leave.

If Labour get off the fence in any direction this has the potential to happen.

But by all means paint this as only an issue if they don't support the far-right option.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: TrenterPercenter on November 28, 2018, 10:21:36 PM
If Labour support a second referendum and campaign for remain, I think that's going to seriously impair their chance to win an election, and be portrayed as a betrayal of their working class heartlands, most of which strongly supported leave.


That said, once we're forced to remain by the political, economic and media establishment, all bets are off about what effect that will have on the balance of power between the parties. Its going to be a disaster for the legitimacy of our political system and undoubtedly will propel ukip or the equivelent back into the picture, but which of the main parties loses the most is anyone's guess. Both are going to be seriously weakened though without doubt.

Not really.  The biggest problem that Brexiteers like yourself have is you know what you are against but not what you are for (a shared characteristic with the current crop of Blairites).  Some Brexit folk i've spoken to have some inkling of Bennite critique of the EU and therefore have some idea of what they might want to do outside of the EU, but in the main it's just a confused anti-establishment movement with wacky racists that cannot be satisfied.  As i've said before, the movement against the status quo is grounded in a barely conscious revolt against monetarist policies and Thatcherism (later Blairism) but because there has been too much time being "angry" and nowhere near enough time spent articulating what comes next, there isn't a foundation there to push on with.

It's Brexit at all costs, jump into bed with anyone, get it done....but what this has done it knit together a mass of people who are only aligned in their dislikes and not their likes.

This is ultimately why Brexit is dead....nothing to do with meeja or political elites, it failed to articulate a coherent future.

Labour have positioned themselves brilliantly as May has tried to sandwich herself between no deal and remain, Labour are positions between crap deal and remain.  No deal is not a thing so all that leaves is another deal but she has said there isn't one.

We know from the polls over the last 2 years that the UKIP votes hurts the Tories more than it hurts Labour.  That is again because Labour has something to say to Northern brexiteers - obvs it won't please everyone, but remain and reform is a much more saleable position for Labour than the Tories.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: mothman on November 28, 2018, 10:48:02 PM
Fake financial predictions that are always wrong using the same old models that are always wrong you mean?

Go on then, lets have a few examples of similar financial projections that turned out to be correct.

[he gets an example]

I predicted the global financial crisis. The woman who cleans the toilets in Greggs predicted it.

“Experts can successfully predict things - but only when it’s obvious, and I agree with it.”
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on November 28, 2018, 10:53:21 PM
Listen to their membership but ignore the 60% of Labour constituencies who voted to leave.

But 60% of Labour voters voted Remain, aaaahhhhh!
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: mothman on November 28, 2018, 10:58:47 PM
Also... so Lexiters are left-wing Brexiters? Christ. I’m going to go outside and wait for the asteroid.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 28, 2018, 10:59:13 PM
It's very lazy to think ukip only damages the tories, the results of the 2015 election show that, where Labour lost numerous seats to the tories by less than the ukip vote. Beware that happening again if Labour betray all their core supporters who voted to leave.


As for not standing for anything, that's clearly bullshit. The status quo you're seeking to preserve is so broken precisely because it stands for nothing. The only politician in recent memory that actually stands for anything substantial is Corbyn, and if he wins an election whilst we're in the EU his radical policy agenda which so threatens elite power will be thwarted by those powers using the vast toolset the EU has created to enforce their suffocating economic orthodoxy on its member states. We're throwing away the best chance in any of our lifetimes to throw off at least some of the shackles that are preventing us transforming the country, which is a betrayl of those Labour supporters that have most suffered under that economic model the EU is designed to enforce.


It was also a rare opportunity to provide the kind of political shock required to radically reform our hopelessly antiquated and broken political system, but instead our inate conservativness, taking our lead from the lying, reactionary self interested voices of the powerful business and political elites who despise us, has rejected that at the expense of making it all even more broken and dysfunctional.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on November 28, 2018, 11:00:57 PM
Quote
using the vast toolset the EU has created to enforce their suffocating economic orthodoxy on its member states
What is this toolset? How does it compare to the toolset to hand when member states are collectively dealing with third countries?

I think I'd probably take "arguing the toss in the Commission and CJEU for ages, ignoring the result and possibly paying a fine" (like we currently do when we want to ignore suffocating EU diktats - including, ironically, their attempt to foist air pollution standards on us) over sanctions and tariffs and shit.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Johnny Yesno on November 28, 2018, 11:40:05 PM
(like we currently do when we want to ignore suffocating EU diktats - including, ironically, their attempt to foist air pollution standards on us)

Haha. Fucking hell. Poor ickle Bwicken, being pushed around like that.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 29, 2018, 08:02:33 AM
Zetetic's legendary 'just ignore them and do what we like' strategy to EU relations. The toolset the forces of reactionary neoliberalism will use is built into the warp and weft of numerous EU treaties and diktats, the obsession with market liberalisation and opening everything up to competition, the race to the bottom and labour arbitrage.


Interesting reading up on polling since the referendum just how little remainers and the political establishment actually understand the leave vote now they're yet again trying to curb stomp us into remaining with their usual lies of economic armageddon.


The clear pattern of the various polls and surveys is that remain voters overriding concern is the economy. Yet for leave voters it barely registers as a concern at all. In fact specific polling of leave voters the last year on what it would take to get them to switch sides, again the economy barely registers, with less than 10% saying they might switch if there was a recession or if they were personally worse off.


Yet the fact the leave voters decision isn't based on the economy just won't sink in for remain will it? No doubt if we get another referendum you'll try to bully us all with your fake economic projections again, and yet again totally mistake what you're concerned about with what everyone is concerned about.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on November 29, 2018, 08:09:33 AM
A rare impassioned plea in favour of ignorance and darkness there.

So what is “everyone” concerned about then bigs?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 29, 2018, 08:25:54 AM
(http://i68.tinypic.com/2emnate.png)

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/ (https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/)

There's nothing wrong with admitting you put the economy before democratic principles, but I don't think its proved to be a good way of winning a referendum.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Talulah, really! on November 29, 2018, 08:28:20 AM
Aside from the fact that even if only 10% of leave voters decided to change their mind on the vote for economical reasons it would switch the result to remain, there is the more significant issue that by January, due to older leave voters dying and younger remainers reaching voting age, the majority of the country will be for remain.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-leave-eu-remain-vote-support-against-poll-uk-europe-final-say-yougov-second-referendum-peter-a8541971.html
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on November 29, 2018, 08:30:03 AM
(http://i68.tinypic.com/2emnate.png)

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/ (https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/)

There's nothing wrong with admitting you put the economy before democratic principles, but I don't think its proved to be a good way of winning a referendum.

So, ignorance and darkness it is then. Tabloid-fed bullshit that falls over at the slightest examination.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 29, 2018, 08:30:18 AM
Aside from the fact that even if only 10% of leave voters decided to change their mind on the vote for economical reasons it would switch the result to remain, there is the more significant issue that by January, due to older leave voters dying and younger remainers reaching voting age, the majority of the country will be for remain.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-leave-eu-remain-vote-support-against-poll-uk-europe-final-say-yougov-second-referendum-peter-a8541971.html

The only logical response to that argument is

CHINNY

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DgM_0joXUAAHBS8.jpg)

RECKON?!
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on November 29, 2018, 08:30:23 AM
Interesting reading up on polling since the referendum just how little remainers and the political establishment actually understand the leave vote

Nobody understands the Leave vote because the referendum was too fucking vague about it.

Why insist on excluding Leavers from the category of people who don’t understand the Leave vote?

You don’t understand the Leave vote either, beyond what you personally want out of it.  Which isn’t what other equally tenacious Leavers want.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on November 29, 2018, 08:30:51 AM
It's very lazy to think ukip only damages the tories, the results of the 2015 election show that, where Labour lost numerous seats to the tories by less than the ukip vote. Beware that happening again if Labour betray all their core supporters who voted to leave.


As for not standing for anything, that's clearly bullshit. The status quo you're seeking to preserve is so broken precisely because it stands for nothing. The only politician in recent memory that actually stands for anything substantial is Corbyn, and if he wins an election whilst we're in the EU his radical policy agenda which so threatens elite power will be thwarted by those powers using the vast toolset the EU has created to enforce their suffocating economic orthodoxy on its member states. We're throwing away the best chance in any of our lifetimes to throw off at least some of the shackles that are preventing us transforming the country, which is a betrayl of those Labour supporters that have most suffered under that economic model the EU is designed to enforce.


It was also a rare opportunity to provide the kind of political shock required to radically reform our hopelessly antiquated and broken political system, but instead our inate conservativness, taking our lead from the lying, reactionary self interested voices of the powerful business and political elites who despise us, has rejected that at the expense of making it all even more broken and dysfunctional.

We already know you think this
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 29, 2018, 08:31:35 AM
So, ignorance and darkness it is then. Tabloid-fed bullshit that falls over at the slightest examination.


Or in other words, you're a man with his fingers in his ears going LALALALA.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on November 29, 2018, 08:33:28 AM
Each of those reasons have been comprehensively dismantled many times on this board in these threads alone. If there's anyone with their fingers in their ears, biggy...

You are arguing for darkness and ignorance and when light is shone in the darkness, you flinch and try to avoid it. Every time.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on November 29, 2018, 08:36:43 AM
Aside from the fact that even if only 10% of leave voters decided to change their mind on the vote for economical reasons it would switch the result to remain, there is the more significant issue that by January, due to older leave voters dying and younger remainers reaching voting age, the majority of the country will be for remain.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-leave-eu-remain-vote-support-against-poll-uk-europe-final-say-yougov-second-referendum-peter-a8541971.html

That's really poor use of data, sorry.

Politics doesn't work by people who have set opinions who age then move along a conveyor belt until death with the same opinions. Their opinions change and morph over time. Likewise, even if it were true, there are more not fewer people aged 65+ than there were in 2016. Lots of them are dying because there are lots more in that category to die - however crucially more of them are remaining (lol I wish) alive.

But more significant, the result was due to the effectiveness of either campaign, which everyone agrees Leave was better. Therefore a second referendum would be primarily subject to who ran the better campaign.

This thing about leavers dying is entertaining on one level, but also unwarrantedly smug given the lack of understanding about how to assess data.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 29, 2018, 08:38:59 AM
Each of those reasons have been comprehensively dismantled many times on this board in these threads alone. If there's anyone with their fingers in their ears, biggy...


Comprehensively dismantled in the minds of people whose desire to remain has become almost akin to a religion. That's not the same as convincing the 17m who voted to leave though is it?


Again, you are making the same mistake that caused the referendum to be lost and Trump to win, and indeed the failing fortunes of centrist parties thoughout the world - the fervent belief that everyone thinks the same as you and wants the same things, and the even more fervent belief than anyone who doesnt think like you is mad, stupid, racist, tricked, unreachahble, deplorable.


How many times are you going to lose until it sinks in that thats not a winning strategy, is perhaps the most interest question of all.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on November 29, 2018, 08:57:21 AM
Aside from the fact that even if only 10% of leave voters decided to change their mind on the vote for economical reasons it would switch the result to remain

But none of them voted that way for economical reasons.
None of them.
Not one.
It's a fact.
Biggy said so.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 29, 2018, 09:01:57 AM
If it happened, or if they believed the projections.

I hear the excuse now for why the projections post the vote were so wrong is that 'policy changes' avoided the bad things they said would happen.

Well durrrrrrr, of course a projection that doesn't include any policy reaction to the thing you're saying will happen will be wrong, why do we keep falling for this shit? What happens post us leaving is entirely up to what we decide to do, not to some preordained path that 'projections' say we must follow.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Talulah, really! on November 29, 2018, 09:07:48 AM
That's really poor use of data, sorry.

Politics doesn't work by people who have set opinions who age then move along a conveyor belt until death with the same opinions. Their opinions change and morph over time.

This however is referring to a specific short period of time. 


(Anyway there is a point in which biggy is right, until Remainers work out an emotionally appealing story that addresses Leavers' concerns, they will never win the argument.)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Rich Uncle Skeleton on November 29, 2018, 09:10:55 AM
Zetetic's legendary 'just ignore them and do what we like' strategy to EU relations. The toolset the forces of reactionary neoliberalism will use is built into the warp and weft of numerous EU treaties and diktats, the obsession with market liberalisation and opening everything up to competition, the race to the bottom and labour arbitrage.


Interesting reading up on polling since the referendum just how little remainers and the political establishment actually understand the leave vote now they're yet again trying to curb stomp us into remaining with their usual lies of economic armageddon.


The clear pattern of the various polls and surveys is that remain voters overriding concern is the economy. Yet for leave voters it barely registers as a concern at all. In fact specific polling of leave voters the last year on what it would take to get them to switch sides, again the economy barely registers, with less than 10% saying they might switch if there was a recession or if they were personally worse off.


Yet the fact the leave voters decision isn't based on the economy just won't sink in for remain will it? No doubt if we get another referendum you'll try to bully us all with your fake economic projections again, and yet again totally mistake what you're concerned about with what everyone is concerned about.

Could you please give it a rest with calling the remain side the establishment as if that's exclusive to your opponents. Getting a bit tedious and it's also a load of hot bullshit to anybody who takes even a brief glance at the kind of people pushing hardest for this fucking shit show.

Also, while I'm here after a few drinks, hasn't brexit been shown to be a load of bollocks? Three brexit secretaries in two years, with one of them saying he didn't realise how much we relied on the dover/calais crossing for trade?? FUCK OFF. Why the hell is he being given ANY attention in the news after that? He's shown he hasn't a clue how to do his job, his opinions are worthless. I don't care if it's the will of the people, the people have seen for themselves that the people they inexplicably voted back in to deal with this fucking mess have no idea what they're fucking doing or wish to give off that impression so they can come out of the EU in the perfect position to make a shitload of cash from all of this....using companies they've conveniently moved to Ireland. Sorry I know I'm stating the obvious here but what the fuck is this country playing at?! How can anybody look at the UK's current position and think yep, the best years are ahead?

And our scarecrow of a prime minister, on top of deciding she suddenly LOVES tv debates, claims there's not enough time for a second vote on this before March. But a snap election in less than two months last year when she was soooo sure she was going to increase her majority is absolutely fine. Funny how anything's possible if the tories stand to gain from it. Fuck anybody who voted for them last year and (biggy's righteous wrath be damned) fuck anyone who voted for brexit and STILL thinks it was a good idea after seeing these utter tits spend 1-2 years pissing it up the bloody wall.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 29, 2018, 09:15:11 AM
But of the people and things you could reliably describe as establishment, the vast overwhelming majority of them want to preserve the status quo that benefits them so much and remain in the EU. Just because you can point to a small minority of them that support leave doesn't alter that. We know all this though, don't make me get my list out again.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on November 29, 2018, 09:28:49 AM
Zetetic's legendary 'just ignore them and do what we like' strategy to EU relations.
To an extent, yes. That's not just my strategy, it's the strategy of most if not all member states.

 What's your strategy? We still need one once we're a third country, it's just that now you need to account for being outside the tent and covered in piss.

Doesn't "actually no deal wont mean anything" amount to "ignore them and do what we like" with a fairly major difference against our favour?


Quote
The toolset the forces of reactionary neoliberalism will use is built into the warp and weft of numerous EU treaties and diktats,
Yes, but what is it? And how does it compare to the tools that they're going to use if we leave?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 29, 2018, 09:45:39 AM
The principle is simple - domestic policies in the UK aren't written into treaties by opaque external bodies that are difficult to impossible to change, they are decided directly by the parties we vote for and the politicians who enact them are accountable to us if they go wrong or don't work.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on November 29, 2018, 10:23:26 AM
https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1067378047907753985
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on November 29, 2018, 10:27:46 AM
even more fervent belief than anyone who doesnt think like you is mad, stupid, racist, tricked, unreachahble, deplorable.



No-one has said that so you can fuck off with this hysterical bollocks.

Quote
deplorable.

Deplorable, eh? That's interesting. It's also interesting that you seem now to be admitting that Brexit won't address any of the problems that you claim (with some plausibility) are at the root of the vote that triggered it.

With this in mind, why are you still banging the Brexit drum hard? Is it OK for you to use the delusions of others for your own political ends?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 29, 2018, 10:52:36 AM
Meanwhile, back in Westminster, Theresa May has been "giving evidence" to the Brexit select committee.

She probably didn't answer a single question that was asked of her.

A choice snippet:

Quote
Bernard Jenkin, the Conservative chair of the public administration and constitutional affairs committee, goes next.

Q: Are you willing to leave without a deal on 29 March?

May says the UK will be leaving on 29 March.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 29, 2018, 10:53:34 AM
Just in:

Quote
Breaking - BBC wins broadcasters race to host Brexit deal debate on Sunday December 9, at 8pm.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 29, 2018, 10:59:18 AM
Quote
May and Corbyn Brexit debate to go ahead

Downing Street has confirmed that Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn will debate the Brexit deal on the BBC.

The head-to-head clash will be on Sunday 9 December at 8pm.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on November 29, 2018, 10:59:47 AM
SIGH
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 29, 2018, 11:00:34 AM
The snooker is on BBC2 at the same time, the debates don't stand a chance.


Still seems a bit odd considering this isn't a public vote.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on November 29, 2018, 11:06:31 AM
Mmmmm...utterly pointless. Let's debate!!

"This is a good deal, the best we can hope for"
"no it is bad"
"no it is good"
"no it is bad"

OK thank you both, let's take questions from the audience

"Mr Corbyn, if you were renegotiating the deal, why do you literally fellate members of the IRA and Hamas?"

"Well the Tory party are a shambles"

Ok thank you, question from you, the tall, lurch-esque figure in the tux

"Yes, can we have some quiet please? This is frame ball. Any more chatter and I'll have to eject you, thank you"
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Quote on November 29, 2018, 11:16:45 AM
I look forward to the insightful and relevant questions of the 99% pure gammon audience the Beeb dredge up for this.

Quote
The BBC wishes to apologise for mistakenly and incorrectly captioning Mr Corbyn as ‘Josef Stalin’ for the duration of the debate.

Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: buttgammon on November 29, 2018, 12:00:40 PM
Ahh, but would he really drop the bomb on Johnny Foreigner if he really, really had to?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: TrenterPercenter on November 29, 2018, 12:03:12 PM
It's very lazy to think ukip only damages the tories, the results of the 2015 election show that, where Labour lost numerous seats to the tories by less than the ukip vote. Beware that happening again if Labour betray all their core supporters who voted to leave.

Seems a bit silly going back to the 2015 election?!  We've had both the referendum and another election since then.  We also have trend data in the polls that have shown a swing from Tories to UKIP at various points when Brexit has perceived to be threatened.  Indeed it is inarguable that Tories have been playing to UKIP sympathies for a long time pre-referendum (and form part of  the reason we even had referendum anyway).  As pointed out Labours core voters are not a) one issue voters b) are not pro-Brexit to a man, their are pockets that pro-brexit mixed in with disaffected voters up north that see Brexit a way to circumvent centrism and lack of investment c) Labour have managed to hold onto more of their votes post election regardless of their perceived changes in stance over Brexit.

The fact is Corbynism and Brexit came along at a similar time we don't know yet fully how those two aspects dovetail over each other, but the recent evidence does not suggest that if both parties said remain was the only option the Tories would suffer more (with UKIP the likely biggest benefactor).  The fact that in this scenario UKIP would be king makers but not big enough to form anywhere near a majority would sugges that appetite for Brexit at all costs isn't a majority view.



Quote
As for not standing for anything, that's clearly bullshit.

No, you are going to just start going on about what you are against below, hence proving my point.

Quote
The status quo you're seeking to preserve is so broken precisely because it stands for nothing.

No again, it stands for a system predicated on global economic finance, it seeks to find economic consensus amongst nations to prevent conflict but at the expense of inequality and destruction of the planet.  It's not good and I'm not defending it.  I just think Brexit because of it handling from Brexiteers and their inability to look past their own anger have never form any coherent future and have amassed a disparate group of supporters that are only aligned in their hatred of the EU and no alignment on what comes next.


Quote
The only politician in recent memory that actually stands for anything substantial is Corbyn, and if he wins an election whilst we're in the EU his radical policy agenda which so threatens elite power will be thwarted by those powers using the vast toolset the EU has created to enforce their suffocating economic orthodoxy on its member states. We're throwing away the best chance in any of our lifetimes to throw off at least some of the shackles that are preventing us transforming the country, which is a betrayl of those Labour supporters that have most suffered under that economic model the EU is designed to enforce.

Load of guff and grandstanding that I am already aware of and don't believe puffing your chest out more when you say it changes anything.


Quote
It was also a rare opportunity to provide the kind of political shock

Yeah and you fucked it, you thought every action on your side was acceptable, you lost the ability to self reform and self-criticise.

It is not the end of the world we will have other opportunities : ) just try and be less angry and more coherent next time and don't involve bellends like JRM just because he happens to agree with your ultimate goal.

Quote
....required to radically reform our hopelessly antiquated and broken political system, but instead our inate conservativness, taking our lead from the lying, reactionary self interested voices of the powerful business and political elites who despise us, has rejected that at the expense of making it all even more broken and dysfunctional.
.

[tag]Man shouts at cloud[/tag]
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 29, 2018, 12:10:01 PM
Quote
Yeah and you fucked it, you thought every action on your side was acceptable, you lost the ability to self reform and self-criticise.

I don't have a 'side' though do I. 75% of Parliament wants to remain, including pretty much all the top people, and most of the other 25% are useless tory twats. From day 1 there never was any will, nor I believe intention, to leave the EU. Which is why we're not leaving. Doesn't matter what we vote for.

Just because I criticism the incessant blame-shifting bullshit of the remain side doesn't mean I'm on Boris Johnson and Nigel Faragee's side.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 29, 2018, 12:30:40 PM
Seems May and Corbyn have agreed to a TV debate - only May thinks its on BBC, and Corbyn thinks its on ITV.


They could maybe debate a dummy of their respective opponent?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Captain Z on November 29, 2018, 12:37:45 PM
Mmmmm...utterly pointless. Let's debate!!

"This is a good deal, the best we can hope for"
"oh no it's not!"
"oh yes it is!"
"oh no it's not!"

Well, it is panto season after all.

Where is my political career, boys and girls? ...
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on November 29, 2018, 12:39:11 PM
A Juggernaut of Shambles
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 29, 2018, 12:41:00 PM
They can't even organise a TV debate and agree on the channel, what chance of them agreeing on a deal?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on November 29, 2018, 12:44:18 PM
The principle is simple - domestic policies in the UK aren't written into treaties
That's not the principle either party is planning to abide by - both are talking about trade arrangements with the EU and elsewhere, and such arrangements will require some consideration of exactly the sort of things that the EU's members require of one another.

The main difference is that outside of the EU, the bar will be lowered for adopting various unilateral puntive responses (in contrast to the current slow legalistic arrangements) and the incentive for punishment as an end in itself will be created.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on November 29, 2018, 01:18:23 PM
They can't even organise a TV debate and agree on the channel, what chance of them agreeing on a deal?

They'll probably just have sex.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Bazooka on November 29, 2018, 01:26:03 PM
They'll probably just have sex.

I think for everyone involved that is the best outcome, especially the baby that will be conceived.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 29, 2018, 01:38:52 PM
https://twitter.com/polhomeeditor/status/1068107113011036166?s=21

Quote
Jeremy Corbyn says a Labour government could take another two years to negotiate a Brexit deal, were they to win a snap election.

No, Jeremy, that’s not how this works.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on November 29, 2018, 02:08:55 PM
https://twitter.com/polhomeeditor/status/1068107113011036166?s=21

No, Jeremy, that’s not how this works.

It fucking is.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 29, 2018, 02:11:14 PM
2 years of what?


I can only see the EU agreeing for pushing back article 50 by 2 years if they thought the negotiation was going to be more closer to remain than even mays bodge job. If so, whats the point?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on November 29, 2018, 02:15:46 PM
I think the longer this drags on the better the chance we’ll never leave.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 29, 2018, 02:22:23 PM
Don't worry, It's pretty obvious we're not leaving, but only the really worst of the alt-centrists want to own that position.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 29, 2018, 02:50:13 PM
2 years of what?


I can only see the EU agreeing for pushing back article 50 by 2 years if they thought the negotiation was going to be more closer to remain than even mays bodge job. If so, whats the point?

The bigger problem is that Labour MPs were three line whipped by Corbyn to vote to trigger article 50, fully aware that the Conservative government would be negotiating the withdrawal and that Britain would leave, by default, 24 months to the day it was triggered.

I'm not sure the EU would wish to renegotiate as Labour had given May's government a mandate to negotiate exactly as they pleased.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/01/a-fifth-of-labour-mps-defy-three-line-whip-to-vote-against-article-50-bill

Quote
Commenting on the second reading of the bill, a spokesperson for Corbyn said: “Labour MPs voted more than three to one in favour of triggering article 50. Now the battle of the week ahead is to shape Brexit negotiations to put jobs, living standards and accountability centre stage.

“Labour’s amendments are the real agenda. The challenge is for MPs of all parties to ensure the best deal for Britain, and that doesn’t mean giving Theresa May a free hand to turn Britain into a bargain basement tax haven.”

He said, immediately after giving Theresa May a free hand to turn Britain into a bargain basement tax haven.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on November 29, 2018, 02:54:07 PM
Suppose they hadn't voted for that A50 bill. Would Labour have done as well in the 2017 GE? And if they hadn't done as well as they did, they would really have given May free hand to do what she wanted.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 29, 2018, 03:00:02 PM

The bigger problem is that Labour MPs were three line whipped by Corbyn to vote to trigger article 50, fully aware that the Conservative government would be negotiating the withdrawal and that Britain would leave, by default, 24 months to the day it was triggered.

I'm not sure the EU would wish to renegotiate as Labour had given May's government a mandate to negotiate exactly as they pleased.

MPs overwhelmingly voted to trigger article 50 by accident though, they were all a bit confused and didn't know what they were doing. Just like when they overwhelming voted to have a referendum, another mistake because they weren't paying attention. And yet again, when the public voted to leave, that was all a misunderstanding over a bus.

Lets face it, everyone here has made so many terrible mistakes we can't trust any of them - public or politicians, with making any more decisions - they will just get it wrong again!

So my suggestion is we arm wrestle for it, winner takes all and no best of 3, Tony Blair for remain and Boris Johnson for leave.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on November 29, 2018, 03:00:57 PM
Please shut up.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 29, 2018, 03:03:24 PM
Please shut up.

But:

Politicians: Recklessly voted to have a referendum and to trigger Article 50, both by huge majorities and without thinking through any of the consequences
Public: So stupid fooled by a bus

Serious question please  - explain why we should trust either party with making any more decisions about this matter.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 29, 2018, 03:13:23 PM
Suppose they hadn't voted for that A50 bill. Would Labour have done as well in the 2017 GE? And if they hadn't done as well as they did, they would really have given May free hand to do what she wanted.

Probably not but I'm not sure why that matters.

"We only wanted to trigger article 50 because we thought it would help our chances in a potential election" is not a good look when you're presenting your case as to why you want to reset the clock on the most critical and potentially damaging negotiations this country and the EU have had in a generation.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on November 29, 2018, 03:49:16 PM
Politicians: Recklessly voted to have a referendum and to trigger Article 50, both by huge majorities and without thinking through any of the consequences
Public: So stupid fooled by a bus

Both true.

Quote
Serious question please  - explain why we should trust either party with making any more decisions about this matter.

Should probably have a second referendum instead, I think.

"We only wanted to trigger article 50 because we thought it would help our chances in a potential election" is not a good look when you're presenting your case as to why you want to reset the clock on the most critical and potentially damaging negotiations this country and the EU have had in a generation.

It would have been a stupid thing to do in isolation. But the alternative—to try to block it—would have been worse, both electorally and in terms of mitigating or stopping Brexit.

It is also my belief that BRINO/Norway—even Canada—with Corbyn in power is a better prospect for most people in this country than Remain with Cons in power. It's all very dirty, I accept. Nothing about this has been good.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 29, 2018, 04:03:18 PM
I'd agree, except that Corbyn ruled out "Norway" yesterday and the future relationship defined by May's agreement is pretty much "Canada" and he's rejecting that too.

And the small issue of no general election until 2022.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on November 29, 2018, 04:04:13 PM
Unless May calls one, and considering what a great idea that was last time I'm sure she's keen to try it again.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 29, 2018, 04:04:53 PM
Thats why, as awful as May is at talking to the public, a TV debate is no walk in the park. Asked to actually define his position, just saying he'd 'negotiate something better' isn't going to cut it.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on November 29, 2018, 04:16:51 PM
May’s tactic is obvious - nail Corbyn down to an actual definable position on Brexit in the hope that, whatever it is, it pushes some votes her way. So obvious that he has to be prepared for it.

Even if both say they want a debate will they agree on what form will it take. If they’re not going to talk to each other but effectively just give two press conferences then what is the point?

What is the point anyway?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: TrenterPercenter on November 29, 2018, 04:40:24 PM
I don't have a 'side' though do I. 75% of Parliament wants to remain, including pretty much all the top people, and most of the other 25% are useless tory twats. From day 1 there never was any will, nor I believe intention, to leave the EU. Which is why we're not leaving. Doesn't matter what we vote for.

Just because I criticism the incessant blame-shifting bullshit of the remain side doesn't mean I'm on Boris Johnson and Nigel Faragee's side.

I didn't say that you did.  You are just one Brexiteer out of many, and it was some of your fellow Brexiteers that aligned themselves with the likes of Bojo and JRM, alongside other Tories and other dodgy character that you think you can separate yourself from but you can't.  You've effectively (and quite ironically) done a Clegg.

In a democracy you have to build consensus, it absolutely could have been done via a cross party approach to Breixt AND the acceptance of the Leave side that result whilst decisive was still close and therefore it was not possible to railroad 48% of the country behind "whatever" each of your Brexit factions wanted.  If you think you are somehow better of morally superior to these enemies (who do exist btw) then you have to actually act like it....but you know....a MP murdered here, a lie about 350 million there, a racist poster, illegal funds...it isn't a good look though as mentioned what is fatal is the lack on any consensus of what leaving actually means.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: olliebean on November 29, 2018, 04:51:52 PM
May wants the debate to be on the BBC at 8pm, shoving Attenborough out of the schedules, which with any luck will piss off a lot of Tory voters. On the other hand, Corbyn wants it at 7pm on ITV, clashing with the Doctor Who finale. It's like he doesn't know me at all.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 29, 2018, 05:03:32 PM
I didn't say that you did.  You are just one Brexiteer out of many, and it was some of your fellow Brexiteers that aligned themselves with the likes of Bojo and JRM, alongside other Tories and other dodgy character that you think you can separate yourself from but you can't.  You've effectively (and quite ironically) done a Clegg.

In a democracy you have to build consensus, it absolutely could have been done via a cross party approach to Breixt AND the acceptance of the Leave side that result whilst decisive was still close and therefore it was not possible to railroad 48% of the country behind "whatever" each of your Brexit factions wanted.  If you think you are somehow better of morally superior to these enemies (who do exist btw) then you have to actually act like it....but you know....a MP murdered here, a lie about 350 million there, a racist poster, illegal funds...it isn't a good look though as mentioned what is fatal is the lack on any consensus of what leaving actually means.


You missed millions of job losses, instant recession, punishment budget and ww3 from your list of lies. Except those lies where from the people actually in charge.

A consensus could have been reached if MPs had actually accepted the leave vote and committed to delivering it, but most of them didn't and decided to frustrate it instead, without ever having the guts to own their opposition. Thats why were in this mess - a lack of basic principles. They could have said a clear no to brexit, which is what they believe, 18 months ago and spared us this, but instead decied to say no like when you call someone a twat but disguise it as a cough.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on November 29, 2018, 05:15:00 PM
You missed millions of job losses, instant recession, punishment budget and ww3 from your list of lies. Except those lies where from the people actually in charge.

Please end this farce.  Respond to what people are saying rather than constantly spouting endless irrelevant fairy tales.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 29, 2018, 05:27:03 PM
Ok the subject of the debates, it's hard to see why Corbyn should pick the BBC when all their political department are well connected Tories and centrists who have spent 2 years smearing him at every opportunity. Tell them to shove it up their arse Jeremy.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Johnny Yesno on November 29, 2018, 05:39:04 PM

You missed millions of job losses, instant recession, punishment budget and ww3 from your list of lies. Except those lies where from the people actually in charge.

A consensus could have been reached if MPs had actually accepted the leave vote and committed to delivering it, but most of them didn't and decided to frustrate it instead, without ever having the guts to own their opposition. Thats why were in this mess - a lack of basic principles. They could have said a clear no to brexit, which is what they believe, 18 months ago and spared us this, but instead decied to say no like when you call someone a twat but disguise it as a cough.

*Cough*
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Ryan Gosling on November 29, 2018, 05:48:35 PM
Biggest problem in this county is politics. Feels like we are living in 1642.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: ZoyzaSorris on November 29, 2018, 06:06:50 PM
Probably not but I'm not sure why that matters.

"We only wanted to trigger article 50 because we thought it would help our chances in a potential election" is not a good look when you're presenting your case as to why you want to reset the clock on the most critical and potentially damaging negotiations this country and the EU have had in a generation.

The EU will be happy to extend A50 as long as necessary. They (and labour) are well aware that the more this clusterfuck can be dragged out the greater the chance of it fucking off entirely.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: finnquark on November 29, 2018, 06:12:21 PM
Don't worry, It's pretty obvious we're not leaving, but only the really worst of the alt-centrists want to own that position.

Don't worry, alt-centrists aren't really centrists, they're just a small, unorganised group of people acting out unfulfillable fantasies.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on November 29, 2018, 06:16:19 PM
Biggest problem in this county is politics. Feels like we are living in 1642.

Musing on it last night as I fed the squirrels - politics is dead.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Fabian Thomsett on November 29, 2018, 06:24:11 PM
May wants the debate to be on the BBC at 8pm, shoving Attenborough out of the schedules, which with any luck will piss off a lot of Tory voters. On the other hand, Corbyn wants it at 7pm on ITV, clashing with the Doctor Who finale. It's like he doesn't know me at all.

Maybe we should have a referendum on it.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Ryan Gosling on November 29, 2018, 06:27:58 PM
Musing on it last night as I fed the squirrels - politics is dead.
Its everywhere. Over saturation..Its the latest form of celebrity.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: olliebean on November 29, 2018, 06:55:26 PM
Surely the debate should be on Channel 4. Why hasn't that even been mentioned as an option?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 29, 2018, 09:54:15 PM
Jesus is this true? https://evolvepolitics.com/remember-the-newsnight-vicar-who-supported-theresa-mays-brexit-deal-shes-a-bbc-actor/



Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 29, 2018, 10:35:22 PM
A new poll shows more people back no deal than remain

(https://wm-pull-zone-jrgifofmw0p2vcg.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/deltapoll.jpg)

It's just a poll of course, but if a 2nd referendum ends up being a rerrun of the first there shouldn't be much reason to be confident the result would be different.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: olliebean on November 29, 2018, 10:41:14 PM
Translation: a new poll shows most people still don't understand what the fuck No Deal would mean.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 29, 2018, 10:47:39 PM
Don't worry, I'm sure a 2nd referendum would be rigged to ensure remain won by splitting the leave vote. What they'll do is leave the remain option from the first referendum unchanged, even though it was rejected, then split the leave vote into at least 2 seperate options, meaning whatever the quality of the debate, remain would win. That might prove to be a sticking point in getting the terms of the referendum agreed though, hopefully.


What it should be is May's deal (or Corbyns or whatever) or no deal.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: TrenterPercenter on November 29, 2018, 10:53:46 PM
Again a weird summary without any practical solution.

What should the question be to not split the leave vote but allow the distinction between no deal and leaving with a deal?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on November 29, 2018, 10:56:51 PM
As some Tory MP suggested a week or so back you have a transferable vote system where you pick your first and second choice from the three options.

So you could mark May’s deal 1st and no deal 2nd if you were clinically insane.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 29, 2018, 11:01:47 PM
This is quite interesting on that subject https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/referendum-final-say-independent-campaign-a8466131.html


A two stage referendum or a single transferable vote could prevent the leave vote being split.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: greencalx on November 29, 2018, 11:05:01 PM
A feature of an STV approach is that it will be the second preference votes of people who have the least popular first preference that would clinch it. Whether that’s a problem or not I don’t know, but if you’re seeking a strong mandate it might not be the way to get it.

The only proposal I’ve seen that feels halfway workable to me is a two-rounder.

1. Accept Mays deal y/n?

2. If majority n > remain/no deal.

But then you would have to decide whether to do it in a one-er or have two consecutive votes once the result of the first one is a no.  And of course there could be other options like “renegotiate” but this would get silly.

Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 29, 2018, 11:06:41 PM
Quote
I think the simplest would be two separate binary questions on the same ballot paper, where all voters would answer both questions : (1) in or out; and (2) deal or no deal. 

That seems fairest to me. Although it would need to be done in two seperate votes?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: greencalx on November 29, 2018, 11:11:23 PM
Why? We’ve already had the in/out referendum, so no need to have it again (you’ve said this yourself 100 times)

The only kind of referendum question that makes sense is: “Should the government enact this specific piece of legislation: yes/no”. That way the “change” campaign is tied to a specific proposal and can’t go making shit up as it goes along with the knowledge that it will fall to someone else to implement their promises.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 29, 2018, 11:16:36 PM
Do you think there should be a referendum without both remain and no deal as options then?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on November 29, 2018, 11:43:02 PM
This is quite interesting on that subject https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/referendum-final-say-independent-campaign-a8466131.html


A two stage referendum or a single transferable vote could prevent the leave vote being split.

Ah yes I distinctly remember the Tories getting behind that kind of voting system in the lead up to the AV referendum.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Rich Uncle Skeleton on November 29, 2018, 11:47:41 PM
The only kind of referendum question that makes sense is: “Should the government enact this specific piece of legislation: yes/no”. That way the “change” campaign is tied to a specific proposal and can’t go making shit up as it goes along with the knowledge that it will fall to someone else to implement their promises.

(https://frinkiac.com/video/S04E03/wOBDNAy0Tsvyu0VEwNyJf87M-ig=.gif)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 30, 2018, 07:19:15 AM
Here’s May claiming that UK citizens will still have freedom of movement in the EU post Brexit;

https://twitter.com/alextaylornews/status/1068080900037099522?s=21
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on November 30, 2018, 07:39:46 AM
the leave vote being split.
Is the fundamental concern here that barely anyone wants any actual specific alternative to remaining in the EU, while close to half the country would us to remain in the EU?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on November 30, 2018, 07:40:36 AM
Here’s May claiming that UK citizens will still have freedom of movement in the EU post Brexit;

https://twitter.com/alextaylornews/status/1068080900037099522?s=21

She's gone fucking mental.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on November 30, 2018, 08:08:20 AM
Is the fundamental concern here that barely anyone wants any actual specific alternative to remaining in the EU, while close to half the country would us to remain in the EU?

Correct.  Being pro-Brexit is about being against any number of different specific and unspecific things, rather than being for anything in particular.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 30, 2018, 08:12:07 AM
Is the fundamental concern here that barely anyone wants any actual specific alternative to remaining in the EU, while close to half the country would us to remain in the EU?

You talk as if remaining in the EU is a single position aswell - going back to exactly how it was in 2016, when even during the referendum the most pro EU positions were deeply sceptical about the EU and described how much it needed to reform.

So why not split the remain vote aswell - remain on current terms, remain but with a commitment to x,y and z within 10 years?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on November 30, 2018, 08:20:48 AM
You talk as if remaining in the EU is a single position aswell - going back to exactly how it was in 2016, when even during the referendum the most pro EU positions were deeply sceptical about the EU and described how much it needed to reform.

So why not split the remain vote aswell - remain on current terms, remain but with a commitment to x,y and z within 10 years?

That would be further splitting the leave vote too, surely.  Surprised you suggested it.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on November 30, 2018, 08:22:06 AM
Don't worry bigs. If this one fails, you've got the rise of fascism and catastrophic climate change in the bank to cause the chaos you've been hoping for.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 30, 2018, 08:23:04 AM
Depends whether we have some form of STV or similar? Personally I favour the 2 stage binary question option, as its the most decisive.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: greencalx on November 30, 2018, 08:23:17 AM
Do you think there should be a referendum without both remain and no deal as options then?

Nothing I said precludes this. The point is that a referendum question should be held on "Do this specific thing? Or stay as we are?" as both positions are then well defined, and the people calling the referendum are wanting to do the specific thing, and can be held to doing that if the result comes out this way.

The reason why a referendum could include those two options is that the notion of "stay as we are" is now poorly defined. Does "stay as we are" mean "stay in the EU under the trading terms we have right now" or "stay in the EU until the A50 notice expires, and become a third country trading on WTO terms"? People's individual answers to that question I think will be based more on the outcome they would rather see, than any legal argument or logic.

Certainly, if the European court decrees that A50 is unilaterally revokable, then I think that does muddy the waters somewhat, and probably you would have to go back to the people on precisely the question of what the status quo actually is. But again it would have to be in concrete terms, as set out above. If you just reduce it to "stay" or "leave", then you'll have people making up all sorts of intermediate positions like Canada++, Norway+ε, Japan/2π or whatever and we don't move forward.

The two-stager set out above I think satisfies these requirements, and crucially gives everyone the same number of binary votes, so avoids vote-splitting as well I think.

That doesn't mean I particularly want a referendum, just that if there is going to be on, it has to be very delicately constructed.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 30, 2018, 08:30:15 AM
I completely agree that a 2nd referendum would be a minefield to actually negotiate and legislate for, as its likely to be orders of magnitude more complex than the first and I'm struggling to see in the current climate how they'd ever agree on terms for it. Either way, its likely to take ages and if you have loads of different options on it you're not going to get any kind of decisive outcome. Best to ask do you still want to leave - yes or no, then have the range of options.


That thing about Article 50 being unilaterally revokable would also be the EUs worst nightmare wouldn't it? Any country thats not happy could trigger article 50, demand better terms, then unliterary revoke it when it suited them. It'd descend into chaos.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on November 30, 2018, 09:06:16 AM
A new poll shows more people back no deal than remain

(https://wm-pull-zone-jrgifofmw0p2vcg.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/deltapoll.jpg)

It's just a poll of course, but if a 2nd referendum ends up being a rerrun of the first there shouldn't be much reason to be confident the result would be different.

U MEAN THE POLLS THAT GOT EVERYTHING WRONG YOU WANT TO BELIEVE THE POLLS THAT GOT EVERYTHING WRONG
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 30, 2018, 09:14:18 AM
It's just a poll of course...
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on November 30, 2018, 09:15:23 AM


Ah yes looking back that's all you said and there were no further words in your post
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 30, 2018, 09:18:24 AM
Yeah the rest of my post had nothing to do with polls, so not sure what you're point is.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 30, 2018, 10:02:51 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/30/theresa-may-rules-out-norway-style-brexit-compromise-with-labour

Quote
“You talk about if a Norway-style strategy would bring Labour along with it – if you look at the Labour party amendment that they’ve put down to the motion on the 11th of December, actually what they are doing is advocating rejecting the deal we’ve negotiated with the European Union without having any proper alternative to it,” she said.

“They say they don’t want no deal, but by appearing to reject a temporary backstop, they are effectively advocating no deal. Without a backstop, there is no deal.”

May suggested she believed there was no compromise that could involve Labour. “What they actually want to see is another general election,” she said. “And that means they are not acting in the national interest, they are putting their narrow party interest first.”

The pot's certainly calling the kettle black, but she's not wrong. That's why she's well up for this debate.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Darles Chickens on November 30, 2018, 10:07:34 AM
Yeah, she obviously thinks she can debate Corbyn into a corner on this, which is also why she refuses to broaden the scope of the debate by including a hard Brexiter like Johnson B or a second referendum advocate like Vince Cable.

According to her, "the country has moved on from the leave-versus-remain argument".  I hadn't noticed.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 30, 2018, 10:09:04 AM
She certainly has the advantage of going into the debate with a real position, even if its a shit one. Corbyn can win on generalities and attacking the governments incompetence but when it comes to having a firm position himself he's going to come undone, as it currently stands. A real mindfield.


Not that it matters at this stage, as I said, this isnt a public vote and MPs aren't likely to be swayed by a last minute TV debate when they'll have already been debating it in parliament for weeks prior.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on November 30, 2018, 10:23:22 AM
Not sure how tying herself down to a specific deal (that is generally considered to be shit) is an advantage, especially given how easily flustered she was at the Brexit Committee.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 30, 2018, 10:24:24 AM
Having some position is better than having no position - having ruled out all possible options?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on November 30, 2018, 10:26:08 AM
Having some position is better than having no position - having ruled out all possible options?

Not if that position is resoundingly shit.
Having no position at least leaves room for manoeuvre.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on November 30, 2018, 10:31:03 AM
Corbs has broken biggy's heart.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: im barry bethel on November 30, 2018, 10:37:50 AM
Having some position is better than having no position - having ruled out all possible options?

NO DEAL IS BETTER THAN A BAD DEAL REMEMBER
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 30, 2018, 10:54:57 AM
Not if that position is resoundingly shit.
Having no position at least leaves room for manoeuvre.

Her position is ratified by the EU. Sure, there's other options you can pull out of your arse when grandstanding for a domestic audience with your eye on Downing Street, but they won't fly in Brussels.

There's no room for manoeuvre for Corbyn. He's ruled out Remain, Norway and No Deal. The only thing left on the table is what May's come back with.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: im barry bethel on November 30, 2018, 11:00:42 AM
Her position is

Missionary, with the lights off and him on top. On Christmas and birthdays she gets the purple box out from the bottom of the wardrobe as Phil's special treat
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on November 30, 2018, 11:13:37 AM
Missionary, with the lights off and him on top. On Christmas and birthdays she gets the purple box out from the bottom of the wardrobe as Phil's special treat

It’s the same box of Milk Tray they’ve had on the go for 35 years.  (True, not even a joke!!)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on November 30, 2018, 11:20:51 AM
Her position is ratified by the EU. Sure, there's other options you can pull out of your arse when grandstanding for a domestic audience with your eye on Downing Street, but they won't fly in Brussels.

There's no room for manoeuvre for Corbyn. He's ruled out Remain, Norway and No Deal. The only thing left on the table is what May's come back with.

Which is irrelevant if/when the deal is fucked off in Parliament.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: olliebean on November 30, 2018, 11:22:52 AM
No matter what happens in the end, Brexit has stuck a knife into the guts of this country. So the referendum question should be, should we pull the knife out, leave it where it is, or push it in further and start twisting it?

Then we have a general election to decide, do we dress the wound or pour salt into it?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 30, 2018, 11:32:41 AM
Which is irrelevant if/when the deal is fucked off in Parliament.

No, it's not. It's very important. Parliament can ratify whatever they want, but if the EU won't accept it, it's of no consequence.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: jobotic on November 30, 2018, 11:44:35 AM
Are the EU not likely to be more receptive to Labour though? After all they haven't spent the last few years calling them cunts and lying about them, unlike the Tories.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 30, 2018, 11:49:12 AM
The EU are pretty happy with May's deal though, considering its BRINO. What exactly is Corbyn going to negotiate thats not just so close to remain as to be pointless? I don't see how the EU have left him anywhere else to go.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Fambo Number Mive on November 30, 2018, 11:52:36 AM
There is a website backthebrexit deal set up by the Tories where voters can tell their MP to back the deal.

Also lots of ads, according to https://twitter.com/TomBoadle/status/1068438496325586945

Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 30, 2018, 11:59:13 AM
Are the EU not likely to be more receptive to Labour though? After all they haven't spent the last few years calling them cunts and lying about them, unlike the Tories.

No, because Corbyn's vowed to keep us in the single market whilst ending freedom of movement of labour. He can be as nice as he likes, he's not getting that.

The irony with Labour's scattergun approach to Brexit is that the only possible scenarios that could pass Labour's six tests are Remain and Norway and he's ruled both of them out.

All he's got left is opposition for the sake of opposition. He doesn't have a coherent Brexit plan that can get past the EU, let alone parliament. All he wants is an election.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 30, 2018, 12:02:21 PM
And, as an aside, he might not have called them cunts, but he's told his fair share of porkies;

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2018/02/27/corbyn-on-state-aid-fact-checked
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 30, 2018, 01:14:36 PM
From Tusk:

Quote
Donald Tusk, president of the European Council, has ruled out any renegotiation on the terms for withdrawal.

He has told journalists at the Buenos Aires summit that the EU is prepared for "every scenario" ahead of the 11 December vote.

"A few days before the vote in the House of Commons, it is becoming more and more clear that this deal is the best possible - in fact, the only possible one," he said.

"If this deal is rejected in the Commons, we are left with... an alternative: no deal or no Brexit at all. I want to reassure you that the EU is prepared for every scenario."

Not that we should believe him, but there we go, that's their position. Corbyn willing to call him out or not, because Tusk is basically saying Corbyn's own position now doesn't exist isn't he?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Neville Chamberlain on November 30, 2018, 01:17:37 PM
The biggest mystery, of course, is why a Polish man is called "Donald Tusk".
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on November 30, 2018, 01:20:10 PM
The biggest mystery, of course, is why a Polish man is called "Donald Tusk".

'Tusk' is Polish for 'Duck'.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: George Oscar Bluth II on November 30, 2018, 01:23:26 PM
No matter what happens in the end, Brexit has stuck a knife into the guts of this country. So the referendum question should be, should we pull the knife out, leave it where it is, or push it in further and start twisting it?

Then we have a general election to decide, do we dress the wound or pour salt into it?

Three option referendum:

May's deal
Remain
The Purge
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 30, 2018, 01:25:39 PM
Fleetwood Mac's famous album was named after the young Donald Tusk of course.  The record company made them drop the "Donald" unfortunetly.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Darles Chickens on November 30, 2018, 02:48:12 PM
G20 venue decimated, and world leaders including May, Trump, Putin and Macron in 'critical condition' following earthquake near Argentina capital

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/buenos-aires-earthquake-latest-latest-g20-summit-argentina-trump-damage-leaders-a8661096.html



Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on November 30, 2018, 03:15:01 PM
MAY GONE!
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Buelligan on November 30, 2018, 03:28:35 PM
The irony with Labour's scattergun approach to Brexit is that the only possible scenarios that could pass Labour's six tests are Remain and Norway...

According to whom?  Two options don't seem particularly scattergun anyway (or are you just using the term "scattergun" simply to be rude about Labour because you don't like them?).

The six tests are:
Does it ensure a strong and collaborative future relationship with the EU?
Does it deliver the "exact same benefits" as we currently have as members of the Single Market and Customs Union?
Does it ensure the fair management of migration in the interests of the economy and communities?
Does it defend rights and protections and prevent a race to the bottom?
Does it protect national security and our capacity to tackle cross-border crime?
Does it deliver for all regions and nations of the UK?

Which of those goals do you think we should ignore?[/list]
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on November 30, 2018, 03:31:09 PM
One of those tests is

Quote
Does it deliver the “exact same benefits” as we currently have as members of the Single Market and Customs Union?

Which is by definition unworkable. The answer will always be 'No', because we're leaving.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Buelligan on November 30, 2018, 03:35:02 PM
So should Britain be opting for an agreement that gives it fewer benefits than it has at the moment?  Is that an ideal starting point?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on November 30, 2018, 03:38:17 PM
Every agreement is going to give us fewer (EU related) benefits. This is an unfortunate and unforeseeable consequence of leaving the EU.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Darles Chickens on November 30, 2018, 03:44:14 PM
According to whom?  Two options don't seem particularly scattergun anyway (or are you just using the term "scattergun" simply to be rude about Labour because you don't like them?).

If the point in the six tests was for Labour to be able to publicly discredit Brexit (or anything but the very softest Brexit, which would be a largely pointless endeavour), it would make sense.  But they're still rejecting Norway (let alone Norway + customs union) and have said the referendum result must be upheld (which rules out Remain).  So their position has no solution.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: George Oscar Bluth II on November 30, 2018, 03:45:42 PM
Has anyone in Labour said they'll be putting down a no confidence vote when May loses her vote on December 11th? Not sure I've seen anyone in the high command say they will for sure?

Although they should, of course.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Buelligan on November 30, 2018, 03:47:54 PM
Every agreement is going to give us fewer (EU related) benefits. This is an unfortunate and unforeseeable consequence of leaving the EU.

In all likelihood, yes.  Nevertheless, would it be correct, would it show that Labour had Britain's interests at heart, would it indicate their good stewardship and wise advice if they neglected to point that out?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on November 30, 2018, 03:51:26 PM
The EU are pretty happy with May's deal though, considering its BRINO. What exactly is Corbyn going to negotiate thats not just so close to remain as to be pointless? I don't see how the EU have left him anywhere else to go.

MATE JUST VOTE FOR LABOUR TOMORROW RATHER THAN THE TORIES IT WILL SOLVE EVERYTHING.

You’ve blasted your one argument for supporting Brexit out of the water, basically.  Next?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: daf on November 30, 2018, 03:52:36 PM
drop the "Donald"

ROO-ARGH!!
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 30, 2018, 03:54:02 PM
If the point in the six tests was for Labour to be able to publicly discredit Brexit (or anything but the very softest Brexit, which would be a largely pointless endeavour), it would make sense.  But they're still rejecting Norway (let alone Norway + customs union) and have said the referendum result must be upheld (which rules out Remain).  So their position has no solution.


It was the perfect position for opposition during the 2 years where the tories were dealing with the mess they created and getting all the flack, but its not much of a position when it comes to the crunch and you actually have to make a decision - eg in government or campaigning in a referendum.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Buelligan on November 30, 2018, 03:56:31 PM
Except if there were a General Election (and they planned to include in their manifesto a promise to give the British people another say) or, if May balks at a GE and is forced into a second referendum.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on November 30, 2018, 04:03:12 PM
Come the debate and Corbyn must know he’ll be eviscerated if he still sticks to no actual position. It is such an obvious problem they’d surely sort that in the next two weeks.

May seems to be making this about her and Corbyn’s personalities. Which, of course, went disastrously for her back in the general election. But here she goes again on the same tack.

There are a lot more doubts about the format of the debate and who will be allowed on it, but that should really be covered in the Brexit thread. Except to say May really doesn’t want the SNP, Lib-Dems or even Boris elbowing their way on to the stage.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 30, 2018, 04:05:44 PM
What position is he magically going to adopt in 2 weeks?


No Deal: ruled out
Mays deal: ruled out
Remain: ruled out
Norway: ruled out
Renegotiation: ruled out by the EU


He literally has no position left to adopt.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on November 30, 2018, 04:07:17 PM
Renegotiation: ruled out by the EU

Not true. EU said they'd reopen negotiations if there's a change of government, I believe.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on November 30, 2018, 04:08:49 PM
What position is he magically going to adopt in 2 weeks?


No Deal: ruled out
Mays deal: ruled out
Remain: ruled out
Norway: ruled out
Renegotiation: ruled out by the EU


He literally has no position left to adopt.

The only one I can think of is ‘let the people decide as parliament can’t’ which is not an unreasonable position and avoids putting his cards on the table.

Whether that is an effect defence to May remains to be seen.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Nice Relaxing Poo on November 30, 2018, 04:10:05 PM
Fleetwood Mac's famous album was named after the young Donald Tusk of course.  The record company made them drop the "Donald" unfortunetly.

They named some other albums after his other siblings too. Daffy Rumours and eldest by a number of years: Porky The Pious Bird of Good Omens
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on November 30, 2018, 04:10:40 PM
Biggy was convinced that Corbyn would do a hard brexits. His heartfelt support for a socialist Labour government is about to cool like a cat locked out in the snow.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on November 30, 2018, 04:11:06 PM
When it comes to renegotiation the EU is probably taking a tough line to help May’s deal get through but while there may be more wiggle room if the deal fails there won’t be much room to manoeuvre.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 30, 2018, 04:11:07 PM
Not true. EU said they'd reopen negotiations if there's a change of government, I believe.


Tusk just said there will be no renegotiation - this is the final deal. He might be lying of course, but Corbyn will have to come out and say so if he sticks to the 'we'll just negotiate something better' line.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 30, 2018, 04:13:40 PM
Biggy was convinced that Corbyn would do a hard brexits. His heartfelt support for a socialist Labour government is about to cool like a cat locked out in the snow.


On the contrary, I fully support his domestic agenda. He's got himself snookered on this though, no use pretending otherwise.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 30, 2018, 04:16:02 PM
    According to whom?  Two options don't seem particularly
scattergun anyway (or are you just using the term "scattergun" simply to be rude about Labour because you don't like them?).

The six tests are:
Does it ensure a strong and collaborative future relationship with the EU?
Does it deliver the "exact same benefits" as we currently have as members of the Single Market and Customs Union?
Does it ensure the fair management of migration in the interests of the economy and communities?
Does it defend rights and protections and prevent a race to the bottom?
Does it protect national security and our capacity to tackle cross-border crime?
Does it deliver for all regions and nations of the UK?

Which of those goals do you think we should ignore?[/list]

Scattergun in so much that Labour have both enabled and opposed the Tory's Brexit strategy seemingly at random, often contrary to the tests.

You'd have to be very cynical to three line whip your MPs to vote for article 50 to be triggered without even having seen the government's plan and then turn around and ask "does it defend rights and protections and prevent a race to the bottom?" knowing full well that you've handed the Tories a blank cheque to do whatever they want.

The only one I can think of is ‘let the people decide as parliament can’t’ which is not an unreasonable position and avoids putting his cards on the table.

Whether that is an effect defence to May remains to be seen.

If he were to get a referendum he'd still have to pick a side. Unless you're suggesting he push for a referendum and then go into hiding and not publicly support any of the options. Because that would be incredibly spineless.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on November 30, 2018, 04:21:22 PM
Blank cheque? What are you talking about? Cons had an absolute majority when A50 was voted on. Labour were just along for the ride.

It's only now that Labour is able to affect the process at all, and mainly because she's pissed off the DUP.

FFS, Babkins, get your facts in order.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on November 30, 2018, 04:21:49 PM
There’s almost certainly not going to be a referendum. May will drive the government off a cliff repeatedly trying to pass her deal.

Corbyn’s non position is very cynical, and he’ll change it as the chaos around May’s eventual fall continues.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 30, 2018, 04:28:54 PM
Blank cheque? What are you talking about? Cons had an absolute majority when A50 was voted on. Labour were just along for the ride.

It's only now that Labour is able to affect the process at all, and mainly because she's pissed off the DUP.

FFS, Babkins, get your facts in order.

I know they couldn't stop it. They could have been slightly less proud of their lack of opposition.

Quote
Commenting on the second reading of the bill, a spokesperson for Corbyn said: “Labour MPs voted more than three to one in favour of triggering article 50. Now the battle of the week ahead is to shape Brexit negotiations to put jobs, living standards and accountability centre stage.

“Labour’s amendments are the real agenda. The challenge is for MPs of all parties to ensure the best deal for Britain, and that doesn’t mean giving Theresa May a free hand to turn Britain into a bargain basement tax haven.”

"We're very happy to have helped Gavin out of the pub and into his car. Now if you'll excuse us, we need to track him down before he kills someone. Did he say where he was going?"
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on November 30, 2018, 04:49:54 PM
'After Gavin had tied us to the chairs and told us that he was going to torch the pub with us in it, we were just pleased that he'd left, despite the fact he was drunk in charge of a motorised vehicle. Fortunately we managed to get ourselves untied and eventually found Gavin had wrapped the car round a lamppost. He was intent on torching all the pubs, inexplicably supported in his drunked rantings by a bunch of Irish Christian fundamentalists and there hasn't been a lot we've been able to do since then, but now that even the Mick have abandoned Gavin we might be able to clear up some of the mess and get the can of petrol away from him.'
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 30, 2018, 04:53:24 PM
pancreas
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 30, 2018, 04:54:23 PM
A provision of the fixed term act theoretically allows for Corbyn to form a government if the PM loses the vote https://news.sky.com/story/sky-views-corbyn-could-be-prime-minister-by-christmas-11566304
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on November 30, 2018, 04:59:31 PM
No, not "the vote" but a specific vote on a motion of no confidence.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Buelligan on November 30, 2018, 05:03:41 PM
I know they couldn't stop it. They could have been slightly less proud of their lack of opposition.

Is that your honest opinion?  How do you think things would've played out for Labour* if Corbyn had opposed A50?

*When I say "Labour", I mean the chance of Britain ever being governed by a party that's not intent on privatising the NHS, rolling out universal credit, turning education into a commodity, enslaving every person, except the wealthy, to the banks, increasing child poverty, homelessness and the ranks of the working poor, keeping the railways subsidised by the public for the benefit of the shareholder, impoverishing schools, turning prisons into money-making blackholes, not worrying about Grenfell, marching for poppies and letting veterans get to fuck, selling arms to countries like SA and so very fucking much more, as you're probably well aware.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 30, 2018, 05:04:30 PM
No, not "the vote" but a specific vote on a motion of no confidence.


Which must follow?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on November 30, 2018, 05:06:17 PM
No. It's a possibility, it's by no means a certainty.

(And the Sky speculative fiction recognises this.)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on November 30, 2018, 05:09:36 PM
Let’s just wave Theresa through for another 5 years in power, or stop squabbling and grow some courgettes
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 30, 2018, 05:15:22 PM
Can she just keep taking the deal to parliament until it passes though? I mean she might even resign but either way something has to give. It might depend how much it loses by, if its a lot its hard to see how its not effectively a no confidence vote.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 30, 2018, 05:21:32 PM
Is that your honest opinion?  How do you think things would've played out for Labour* if Corbyn had opposed A50?

*When I say "Labour", I mean the chance of Britain ever being governed by a party that's not intent on privatising the NHS, rolling out universal credit, turning education into a commodity, enslaving every person, except the wealthy, to the banks, increasing child poverty, homelessness and the ranks of the working poor, keeping the railways subsidised by the public for the benefit of the shareholder, impoverishing schools, turning prisons into money-making blackholes, not worrying about Grenfell, marching for poppies and letting veterans get to fuck, selling arms to countries like SA and so very fucking much more, as you're probably well aware.

It all hinged on how he opposed article 50 being triggered. Because he couldn't agree with the Tories being given a blank cheque.

The 2017 election was notable in so much that the Tories campaigned entirely on being the party of Brexit whereas Labour made gains simply because they'd ignored it and concentrated on domestic issues. That metric doesn't change regardless of how they voted. One more attack vector for the press probably wouldn't have moved the needle.

Can she just keep taking the deal to parliament until it passes though? I mean she might even resign but either way something has to give. It might depend how much it loses by, if its a lot its hard to see how its not effectively a no confidence vote.

The Tories won't bring down their own government. If they sense a possible DUP rebellion they'll bring down May and elect a new leader to stall for time. At no point will they do anything that could bring about an election.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Buelligan on November 30, 2018, 05:30:24 PM
It all hinged on how he opposed article 50 being triggered. Because he couldn't agree with the Tories being given a blank cheque.

The 2017 election was notable in so much that the Tories campaigned entirely on being the party of Brexit whereas Labour made gains simply because they'd ignored it and concentrated on domestic issues. That metric doesn't change regardless of how they voted. One more attack vector for the press probably wouldn't have moved the needle.

I don't think you have an accurate view of things.  Labour did not make gains "simply because they'd ignored it and concentrated on domestic issues".  We are (ideally) not just worrying about the 2017 GE. 

Open your mind a bit, think about how you are going to keep everyone on board, not just please some of the passengers, keep everyone on board and afloat and save the fucking ship.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on November 30, 2018, 05:40:33 PM
I don't think you have an accurate view of things.  Labour did not make gains "simply because they'd ignored it and concentrated on domestic issues".  We are (ideally) not just worrying about the 2017 GE. 

Open your mind a bit, think about how you are going to keep everyone on board, not just please some of the passengers, keep everyone on board and afloat and save the fucking ship.

The Leave-voting Labour heartlands weren't going to go Tory if Labour opposed triggering article 50 as it was, when it was. If Labour were publicly against Brexit full-stop it might have moved the needle but that's not their policy. The Tories and media have constantly tried to paint Corbyn as a Remainer and it never sticks. Even this week May accused Labour of "trying to thwart Brexit at all costs." It's never stuck.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Buelligan on November 30, 2018, 05:49:35 PM
Is that the kind of cynicism that's "good cynicism" then?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on November 30, 2018, 05:52:40 PM
Healthy speculation.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on November 30, 2018, 06:25:01 PM
Is that the kind of cynicism that's "good cynicism" then?


No cynicism is better than bad cynicism.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on November 30, 2018, 06:33:32 PM
Ha, she already knows it won't pass https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46394431

Quote
Theresa May has refused to rule out another Commons vote on her Brexit deal if MPs reject it the first time.

Interesting -
Quote
Under Commons rules, the prime minister is not meant to ask MPs the same question twice - she would have to change the contents of her deal.

So tusk would have to back down and agree to change the deal, or that's it - election, referendum or no deal.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: olliebean on November 30, 2018, 08:17:27 PM
Does it deliver the "exact same benefits" as we currently have as members of the Single Market and Customs Union?

This one was supposed to be a trap for the Tories because the "exact same benefits" was what David Davis said we'd get. Unfortunately, by putting it in their six tests, if Labour ever get to renegotiate the deal it then becomes a trap for Labour, probably more so than for the Tories because Davis said it once while Labour have kept going on about it.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Buelligan on November 30, 2018, 08:43:04 PM
But surely a big part of the problem with May's negotiations is that she's heading a hung parliament, where the ERG and the DUP (both of whom have extreme ideas on the matter) hold the balance of power.  She cannot simply negotiate in the country's best interest, she has to appease them, plus all the individuals like Boris, Gove, Davis, Rees-Mogg, Raab, etc who are all seeking her job, before she thinks about what's best for the UK. 

If Labour wins the next election, hopefully, not only will they have a strong majority but they'll also have incorporated an outline of their strategy into their manifesto, which, with electoral success, will give them a democratically approved mandate for the framework of any future exit.

This should enable them to negotiate better and, if they can't get a good agreement, go back to the country and tell the people that it can't be done, offer them the final say.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on November 30, 2018, 09:16:40 PM
If during the debate Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn spontaneously started "lezzing up" (May's own description), who do you reckon would instantly lose the debate the most, in the eyes of the general public?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Kelvin on November 30, 2018, 09:20:15 PM
The viewers
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on November 30, 2018, 09:34:07 PM
The viewers

OUT OF THERESA MAY AND JEREMY CORBYN THOUGH
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Mr_Simnock on December 01, 2018, 12:31:51 AM
Some minor minister resigning (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46407249) and stating they are going to vote against on Dec 11th.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 01, 2018, 07:13:02 AM
That’s nothing to May though.

Poor bugger has got totally upstaged by the death of the famous vomiter in the US as well.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: greencalx on December 01, 2018, 12:53:34 PM
Yes but the fact that resignations are continuing does increase the likelihood of May’s withdrawal agreement being voted down. It was starting to look like the tories instinct for self preservation was kicking in. Presumably those who have resigned citing the withdrawal agreement won’t then vote in favour of it - although I suppose they might abstain. Unless some Labour MPs decide to defy the whip because Corbyn (which is a possibility) its not looking good.

Apparently Benn has tabled a “no no deal” amendment. Not clear if this has the support of the frontbench. Corbyn and McDonnell have both ruled out no deal, so on that basis they could support it. But isn’t it academic if the bill isn’t passed, with or without the amendment? So maybe this is just another way for Benn to undermine his party’s leadership.

Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: greencalx on December 01, 2018, 12:56:16 PM
Or to put it another way, if the bill is passed with “no no deal” amendment, then mays widthdrawal goes through anyway. If the bill isn’t passed, then isn’t it anything goes?

Does anyone understand parliamentary procedure enough to explain? (Merits or otherwise of deal vs no deal can go in the Brexit thread).
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 01, 2018, 01:08:35 PM
I'm not really sure what the point of amending the bill is if they're planning to vote it down.

Quote
Below is the full wording of the amendment.

1) declines to approve the negotiated withdrawal agreement and the framework for the future relationship because it fails to provide for a permanent UK-EU customs union and strong single market deal and would therefore lead to increased barriers to trade in goods and services, would not protect workers’ rights and environmental standards, allows for the diminution of the United Kingdom’s internal and external security and is likely to lead to the implementation of a backstop provision in Northern Ireland that is neither politically nor economically sustainable;

2) declines to approve the United Kingdom’s leaving the European Union without a withdrawal agreement;

3) and therefore resolves to pursue every option that prevents the United Kingdom’s either leaving the European Union without a withdrawal agreement or leaving on the basis of the negotiated withdrawal agreement laid before the House.

Suppose they get this passed... are they then going to vote it down anyway? It's somewhat bizarre. Perhaps they just want to be seen to be trying to do something.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Endicott on December 01, 2018, 02:25:48 PM
Yes but the fact that resignations are continuing does increase the likelihood of May’s withdrawal agreement being voted down. It was starting to look like the tories instinct for self preservation was kicking in. Presumably those who have resigned citing the withdrawal agreement won’t then vote in favour of it - although I suppose they might abstain. Unless some Labour MPs decide to defy the whip because Corbyn (which is a possibility) its not looking good.

I don't think you can make this kind of logical assessment of politicians, Tory or otherwise. On the one hand they have their public posturing, but how they actually vote is another matter. I'd go further than your possible abstentions, and say that some might even vote for. All bets are off, because I think it's all about internal party politics, the requirements of which change daily.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Mr_Simnock on December 02, 2018, 12:32:28 PM
Great move by Labour (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46416591), keeping the pressure on may and also another strong hint (I think) that they expect the bill not to pass. Who knows? An election my be just around the corner.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on December 02, 2018, 12:41:45 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/7e3lrFf.png)

Craven, dickless cretin.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 03, 2018, 08:28:03 AM
Looks like the DUP are ready to join labour in launching contempt of parliament proceedings against May. Very ominous for them if the DUP are siding with labour.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Dr Trouser on December 03, 2018, 11:32:57 AM
Olly Robbins now saying "I did warn her, honestly, it's all her choice, nowt to do with me'

When the civil service step back so obviously it must mean she's fucked, surely.

Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 03, 2018, 11:52:19 AM
Well, she is. But then again she has been for months, if not longer.

There’s the contempt of parliament imminent, and then there’s days of debate leading to the vote. May’s charm offensive has fallen flat on its face and opposition seems to be hardening. Most politicians would pull back from the vote or change course, but not May. As usual she’s carrying on in the same direction praying for a miracle.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on December 03, 2018, 12:08:35 PM
Well, she is. But then again she has been for months, if not longer.

There’s the contempt of parliament imminent, and then there’s days of debate leading to the vote. May’s charm offensive has fallen flat on its face and opposition seems to be hardening. Most politicians would pull back from the vote or change course, but not May. As usual she’s carrying on in the same direction praying for a miracle.

She can't really do much anyway. She's got various groups all asking her to do something different, none of the alternatives has the numbers to get through the house, few of them will pass muster with the EU. She could do a U-turn, but to what? As long as parliament can't find consensus on where to go next, hers is the only plan that will actually work.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Dr Trouser on December 03, 2018, 02:32:59 PM
Peter Bone is taking no shit from Olly Robbins or Barclay at the select committee right now. Barclay attempting to use a paddington bear hard stare when stumped with a question.

May has concocted such a mess it is delightful watching all drown in this turd tsunami.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 03, 2018, 04:21:58 PM
Tsurdnami.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 03, 2018, 06:10:20 PM
Labour have launched a contempt of parliament motion against the government - seems they have the other parties on board, including the DUP.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Howj Begg on December 03, 2018, 06:37:58 PM
Some absolute incredible bollocks about not releasing the legal advice from Geoffrey Cox in the Commons. Almost everyone is united in calling it out, and 6 parties have written to hold him in contempt.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: thraxx on December 03, 2018, 06:39:57 PM
Some absolute incredible bollocks about not releasing the legal advice from Geoffrey Cox in the Commons. Almost everyone is united in calling it out, and 6 parties have written to hold him in contempt.

I'm watching it too.  Astonishing level of aggro in the house and Bercow still attempting to make it all about him.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Thomas on December 03, 2018, 06:42:49 PM
Almost everyone is united in calling it out, and 6 parties have written to hold him in contempt.

Wait, do we have to write and send letters just to hold Tory MPs in contempt? Bet that's an EU law.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: finnquark on December 03, 2018, 06:47:56 PM
I'm watching it too.  Astonishing level of aggro in the house and Bercow still attempting to make it all about him.

Cox seems to keep forgetting this isn't a Tory Party Conference. Bloke is an absolute bellend. This isn't a parish council.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 03, 2018, 06:54:16 PM
It was an amazingly, almost contempously false justification for withholding wasn't it. Entirely to try and save May's deal.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 03, 2018, 06:55:25 PM
This has taken procrastination to new levels.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: thraxx on December 03, 2018, 07:02:57 PM
It was an amazingly, almost contempously false justification for withholding wasn't it. Entirely to try and save May's deal.

Surely his job is to provide independent legal advice free from political bias to the government (as someone asked), and he has completely nailed his colours to the mast that he wants to protect the deal.

Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on December 03, 2018, 07:25:01 PM
What's the latest on getting that released?

If anything they are just drawing attention to its contents.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: greencalx on December 03, 2018, 07:26:35 PM
What's the latest on getting that released?

If anything they are just drawing attention to its contents.

Yeah, everyone knows that if you don't want people to read stuff you spam them with every single thing that's ever been written that relates to the issue in hand, usually in the interests of "transparency" and "completeness".
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 03, 2018, 07:26:39 PM
I've only skimmed through the Guardian live blog - is the upshot that he's not releasing it 'to protect the public interest'? (!!!??)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on December 03, 2018, 08:31:27 PM
"There is nothing to hide", while literally hiding it.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 03, 2018, 09:34:34 PM
Liam Young

Verified account
 
@liamyoung
 6m6 minutes ago
More
Wow. Bercow rules there is an "arguable case" that the government is in contempt of parliament. The matter will be debated tomorrow. Perhaps another beginning of the end for May’s weak and wobbly premiership.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Pseudopath on December 03, 2018, 09:50:40 PM
If I understand the legislation correctly, you can't just accuse an entire government of "contempt of Parliament". You have to actually name the ministers (or persons) you deem responsible for said contempt. In this case, the obvious culprit would be the Attorney General, but they don't even mention him in the letter (and it's not clear what punishments, if any, can be doled out to non-members).

EDIT: Fucksticks. I didn't realise Geoffrey Cox was an MP too. But the point stands.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 03, 2018, 09:54:19 PM
Well they're debating something tomorrow morning, so they'll probably name one or both Cox and Lidlington.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Darles Chickens on December 03, 2018, 09:57:27 PM
Why can't they name May? She's the one who's ultimately deciding not to publish the document.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 03, 2018, 09:59:32 PM
Presumably at the advice of Cox, but she must have approved the decision so the buck should really stop with her.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 03, 2018, 10:03:59 PM
they'll probably name one or both Cox and Lidlington.

Why can't they name May?

Because legally in these situations you have to have a vague sense in your mind that the surname is a kind of apple, and this is definitely not the case with May.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: finnquark on December 03, 2018, 10:11:29 PM
If anyone is awake, there's a sensational filibustering attempt going on now as the Tories work out how to respond to the debate tomorrow. The SNP are enjoying themselves. Alan Duncan is filibustering by muttering about the Chilean Navy and Scotland's failed attempt to colonise Panama. Edit - it's just finished.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 03, 2018, 10:11:48 PM
Because legally in these situations you have to have a vague sense in your mind that the surname is a kind of apple, and this is definitely not the case with May.

ahem

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podophyllum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podophyllum)

Quote
he one remaining species is Podophyllum peltatum, with common names mayapple,

Quote
The unripe green fruit is toxic. The ripened yellow fruit is edible in small amounts, though when consumed in large amounts the fruit is poisonous.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 03, 2018, 10:12:59 PM
If anyone is awake, there's a sensational filibustering attempt going on now as the Tories work out how to respond to the debate tomorrow. The SNP are enjoying themselves. Alan Duncan is filibustering by muttering about the Chilean Navy and Scotland's failed attempt to colonise Panama.

where can one watch this?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: finnquark on December 03, 2018, 10:15:20 PM
where can one watch this?

I just had BBC Parliament on in the background.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: olliebean on December 03, 2018, 10:47:11 PM
It'll be archived on parliamentlive.tv (http://parliamentlive.tv).
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on December 03, 2018, 10:52:13 PM
There must be chess moves left in this. It delays the vote on the deal - is this buying time?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 03, 2018, 11:04:46 PM
Of course, if Cox or Lidington get suspended they’ll miss the Brexit vote making things just that little bit harder for May.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on December 04, 2018, 08:17:00 AM
I try not to perceive bias that isn't there but the BBC have been awfully muted about this. The headline doesn't mention contempt proceedings and just says "will decide if broke parliament rules before moving on to debate Brexit deal".

If this involved Corbyn the word contempt would appear on the front page at least once and they'd find a popular barrister to explain how this would make PM Corbyn as good as a common criminal.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 04, 2018, 08:19:46 AM
The BBC's job in 'state crisis', real or contrived, is to get behind the government (rather than specifically the tory party) and usher us through the stalls.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on December 04, 2018, 08:32:19 AM
The BBC's job in 'state crisis', real or contrived, is to get behind the government (rather than specifically the tory party) and usher us through the stalls.

Unless the government is socialist
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on December 04, 2018, 08:34:54 AM
The Tories have tabled an amendment accepting that ministers have acted in contempt, but delaying an inquiry until after the vote.

https://twitter.com/labourwhips/status/1069732680923779073

It's bare-faced. Utterly craven.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 04, 2018, 08:36:18 AM
The BBC's job in 'state crisis', real or contrived, is to get behind the government (rather than specifically the tory party) and usher us through the stalls.

I’m guessing we’re deemed to be in ‘state crisis’ quite a lot under the Tories, then.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 04, 2018, 08:56:40 AM
Unless the government is socialist


The BBC are ultimately about preserving the establishment and its institutions more than anything, so even though they undeniably hate Corbyn, this is more about that than party political bias I think. Of course with Kuensberg front and center the outright love in for May definitely makes it look like that.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 04, 2018, 08:59:14 AM
Looks like the ECJ is going to rule that the UK can unilaterally revoke article 50. If that's a precedent thats terrible news for the EU isnt it?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 04, 2018, 09:02:46 AM
Looks like the ECJ is going to rule that the UK can unilaterally revoke article 50. If that's a precedent thats terrible news for the EU isnt it?

Are you being sarcastic?

It makes it a lot easier for us to stay which is their best case scenario.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 04, 2018, 09:07:16 AM
FBPE'ers now frothing themselves into a frenzy at the prospect we can just cancel this horrifying nightmare that is brexit unilaterally and not even bother with a 2nd referendum they might lose.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 04, 2018, 09:08:52 AM
Are you being sarcastic?

It makes it a lot easier for us to stay which is their best case scenario.


No, I'm sure various bods in the EU were worried about it because it means any country unhappy with their lot can trigger article 50, demand better terms, then unilaterally revoke it when it suits them. Gives disgruntled EU countries far more power than they had previously.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on December 04, 2018, 09:15:02 AM
That sounds like a good thing, right? The EU being more accountable to its members is surely a counter to one of the criticisms levelled at it?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: baptist on December 04, 2018, 09:16:26 AM
ECJ Attorney General has just handed down a decision that Article 50 can be unilaterally revoked. Heard it on t'wireless.

BBC here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46428579 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46428579)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 04, 2018, 09:19:26 AM
It’d be a minor irritation at worst. The EU just needs to be as hardnosed as they are with us and most other countries would back down.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 04, 2018, 09:22:46 AM
That sounds like a good thing, right? The EU being more accountable to its members is surely a counter to one of the criticisms levelled at it?


It's not good for the EU, if multiple countries did that it means the much vaunted 'integrity of the union' gradually starts to dissolve.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 04, 2018, 09:29:44 AM
Interesting from Paul Krugman here, smelling several rats in the BOE's doomy projections - https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/30/opinion/brexit-borders-and-the-bank-of-england-wonkish.html
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on December 04, 2018, 09:33:41 AM
MSM though.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 04, 2018, 09:35:43 AM
A mainstream source criticising a mainstream prediction.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 04, 2018, 09:40:12 AM
Interesting from Paul Krugman here, smelling several rats in the BOE's doomy projections - https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/30/opinion/brexit-borders-and-the-bank-of-england-wonkish.html

It's hardly a weighty analysis: just 'I can't understand why there would be serious problems if trade and borders were massively disrupted.' Well, maybe someone else can. I think the idea that the Govt as it stands has 'high administrative capacity' is utterly deluded. Look at the rail network, look at the NHS, look at Universal Credit.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 04, 2018, 09:42:04 AM
Former head of the Bank of England, Mervyn King, has joined the attack on the predictions in a column on Bloomberg.

Quote
King took a swipe at the bank, casting doubt on that worst-case scenario for relying on weaker productivity and a long-term disruption at borders, both of which were unlikely. It “saddens me to see the Bank of England unnecessarily drawn into this project,” he said.

“Before the referendum, official economic projections intended to scare the country into voting Remain didn’t succeed,” King said “Based on flimsy and arbitrary assumptions, they were subsequently proved wrong. The same strategy has resurfaced.”

He also calls the deal the ‘Worst of all worlds’ and accuses May’s government of ‘incompetence of a high order’.

Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on December 04, 2018, 09:45:20 AM
ECJ Attorney General has just handed down a decision that Article 50 can be unilaterally revoked. Heard it on t'wireless.

BBC here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46428579 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46428579)

Whilst the government aren't likely to trigger this, it does leave options on the table;

As of now, we automatically leave on the 29th March. The ERG like this as inaction automatically leads to "No Deal". May can now threaten the ERG rebels with the option of taking their Brexit away at the 11th hour.

A theoretical Labour government that's somehow gotten voted in between now and next March could withdraw article 50 and retrigger later to restart negotiations.

It's a useful thing for the police to know, should there be any criminal investigation required post March 29th.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Howj Begg on December 04, 2018, 09:49:33 AM
Quote
And even in the short run, I wonder why Britain couldn’t follow the old prescription, “When all else fails, lower your standards.” If laxer enforcement, special treatment for trusted shippers, whatever, could clear the bottlenecks at the ports, wouldn’t that be worth it, despite the potential for fraud, as a temporary measure?

Yeah, thanks for that Paul.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 04, 2018, 09:51:38 AM
Anyone can see that the 'predictions' yet again assume we just sit around twiddling our thumbs and there is no policy reaction. Krugman's example is a good one, as if we'd just let the channel be blocked for year after year, and literally do nothing about it. This is yet again another example in a sorry litany of them, where economic predictions are less predictions and more deliberate, contrived attempts to push people down a desired path.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on December 04, 2018, 09:54:00 AM
A mainstream source criticising a mainstream prediction.

Oh, right. Must be fair, well-researched and unbiased then. Amazing that the MSM can pull off a feat like this really, when you consider that they all speak with exactly the same voice. Makes you wonder on what other occasions they've been secretly producing decent journalism behind this front of duplicitous shilling for the security services.

Anyone can see that the 'predictions' yet again assume we just sit around twiddling our thumbs and there is no policy reaction. Krugman's example is a good one, as if we'd just let the channel be blocked for year after year, and literally do nothing about it. This is yet again another example in a sorry litany of them, where economic predictions are less predictions and more deliberate, contrived attempts to push people down a desired path.

Sorry, what do you mean "there's no policy reaction"? HMRC are spending millions upgrading their customs systems, companies are demanding bribes to stay in the UK, France and Germany have stepped up preparations and Rees-Mogg's moved his money to Dublin. Parts of Kent are being converted into car parks.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on December 04, 2018, 09:56:21 AM
DP
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on December 04, 2018, 09:56:47 AM
Yeah, thanks for that Paul.

It's almost as if it's in Paul's best interests for there to be a hastily put together trade deal that allows the US to flood the UK with low standard food and take over the running of our public services.

Almost as if.

I still don't understand why Biggy is so desperate for our infrastructure to be owned by US farming, pharmaceutical and insurance conglomerates whilst railing against the neoliberal EU but I'm sure it makes sense in his head.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 04, 2018, 09:57:02 AM
This is yet again another example in a sorry litany of them, where economic predictions are less predictions and more deliberate, contrived attempts to push people down a desired path.

Sorry, does this refer to Krugman's prediction or the prediction that everything would collapse?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on December 04, 2018, 09:59:04 AM
If as a result of Brexit we actually had to throw open our borders...
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 04, 2018, 09:59:05 AM
It's almost as if it's in Paul's best interests for there to be a hastily put together trade deal that allows the US to flood the UK with low standard food and take over the running of our public services.


He's against Brexit. He says so in the very article I posted.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 04, 2018, 10:02:47 AM
I still don't understand why Biggy is so desperate for our infrastructure to be owned by US farming, pharmaceutical and insurance conglomerates whilst railing against the neoliberal EU but I'm sure it makes sense in his head.


I believe this should be up to the UK, not Brussels - who do not have the interests of public services at heart in any case. I intend to vote for a government that is not interested in selling off the UK. In fact, I don't believe there is any majority on either side of politics for such a thing, after 30 years of such policies now piling up into the current mess.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Buelligan on December 04, 2018, 10:03:31 AM

It's not good for the EU, if multiple countries did that it means the much vaunted 'integrity of the union' gradually starts to dissolve.

No, it means the union becomes stronger because it has to adapt to satisfy more of the component parts (as Paul says).  I can't see multiple countries doing it anyway, what is it about the past couple of years in Britain that any country would wish to mirror?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 04, 2018, 10:08:33 AM
Greece and Italy are two countries that spring to mind. Anti EU parties are makign ground everywhere, even in Germany.

Also, the self inflicted political nonsense in this country the last two years is an absolute walk in the park compared to the nightmare the EU has imposed on several of its members. If there's an easy way for them to say 'no, enough', demand better terms, then unilaterally stroll back when it suits them, the whole stability of the block comes under threat.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on December 04, 2018, 10:12:59 AM
But Britain hasn't got a better deal so why would anyone else? We've inflicted unnecessary economic damage on ourselves.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on December 04, 2018, 10:15:49 AM

I believe this should be up to the UK, not Brussels - who do not have the interests of public services at heart in any case. I intend to vote for a government that is not interested in selling off the UK. In fact, I don't believe there is any majority on either side of politics for such a thing, after 30 years of such policies now piling up into the current mess.

Henry VIII powers means there doesn't have to be a majority for it. The Tory government can just push it through.

You can vote for a new government in 2022 by all means, but it'll be too late by then. The contracts we sign will inevitably be long and have obscene penalties for cancelling them.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on December 04, 2018, 10:15:58 AM
Anyway, in Greece's case, I wouldn't be surprised if the EU just said "OK, see you then. Best of luck."
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Buelligan on December 04, 2018, 10:16:26 AM
Greece and Italy are two countries that spring to mind. Anti EU parties are makign ground everywhere, even in Germany.

We've already discussed my thoughts on why they are making ground in another thread.   If the EU starts to reform according to the wishes of its member states (and citizens), IMO (and Paul's), this would undermine those trying to leverage the end of the EU for their own partisan selfish reasons that have bugger-all to do with the welfare, rights or freedom of EU citizens.  And that can only be a good thing.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 04, 2018, 10:40:37 AM
Henry VIII powers means there doesn't have to be a majority for it. The Tory government can just push it through.

You can vote for a new government in 2022 by all means, but it'll be too late by then. The contracts we sign will inevitably be long and have obscene penalties for cancelling them.

This is fantasy. Even in the very unlikely event they can limp on till then they are lame ducks, the idea they're miraculously going to be able to force multiple major binding long term trade deals through that are recklessly damaging to UK interests despite there existing no majority for one even in her own party is absolute nonsense.

Also I note you keep banging on about 'Henry the VIII' powers, but fail to mention that 80-90% of all such usage was to transfer EU legislation into UK law, which I don't remember any remainers complaining about. You also fail to mention that abuse of 'Henry the VIII' powers can and are legally challengeable - they ovetturned one as recently as 2013 and made it quite clear that it was 'well established that, unlike statutes, the lawfulness of statutory instruments  can be challenged in court' and that it was 'upholding the supremacy of parliament over the executive'.

So Huxely, I'm afraid I'm going to have to sentence you guilty of flagrant and wanton scaremongering.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: greencalx on December 04, 2018, 10:53:42 AM
We've won so many concessions from the EU these last two years that other countries are just going to be queuing up to flip-flop on A50.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 04, 2018, 11:09:04 AM

It's not good for the EU, if multiple countries did that it means the much vaunted 'integrity of the union' gradually starts to dissolve.

The EU doesn’t exist outside of “multiple countries”.

It is the shared political and economic consciousness of those countries.  That’s it.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 04, 2018, 11:19:01 AM
It's not even my argument, it's theirs - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46345287

Quote
The EU fretted about Article 50 being re-written in a way that meant a country could announce it was leaving then change its mind again and again, creating a state of permanent anxiety. Or worse, using it as a tactic to secure a better deal at the EU's expense.

Hubert Legal, the chief lawyer for the European Council, argued that allowing unilateral withdrawal could therefore lead to "disaster", of which "the main victim could be the European project altogether".

This was echoed by lawyers for the European Commission, who said states could act in an "abusive" manner by stopping and restarting the countdown clock, creating "endless uncertainty" - which the two-year time limit built into Article 50 was designed to guard against.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 04, 2018, 11:21:33 AM
I believe this should be up to the UK,

Corporations and their lobbyists, you mean.

Admit what you understand to be true and believe to be good, instead of hiding behind this.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Buelligan on December 04, 2018, 11:22:53 AM
Like fracking and whether to take your chicken with bleach or paying shareholders for basic healthcare.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 04, 2018, 11:23:17 AM
It's not even my argument, it's theirs - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46345287


But we’ve not got one single concession if we decide to stay, nor will we get one. And the two years of turmoil has suppressed our economy.

So any country following us will have years of hurt for absolutely no benefit. There will be no one threatening to leave without actually meaning it.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 04, 2018, 11:25:50 AM
That's their legal assessment not mine.

And we haven't got an concessions because we (the political establishment, not the voters) don't really want to leave. May's got a deal acceptable to the City of London and big business, that can superfically be portrayed as 'delivering brexit' to the plebs, thats all that matters to them.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Fambo Number Mive on December 04, 2018, 11:26:06 AM
Re Krugman, Britain has lowered its standards on so many things due to austerity. We can't lower our standards any further.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Buelligan on December 04, 2018, 11:27:33 AM
But we’ve not got one single concession if we decide to stay, nor will we get one. And the two years of turmoil has suppressed our economy.

So any country following us will have years of hurt for absolutely no benefit. There will be no one threatening to leave without actually meaning it.

Well, there could be if a country was run by people that didn't care about the wellbeing of its citizens as its primary concern.  Or if they didn't give a hoot about peace and stability in Europe.  If a government cared more about retaining power than the welfare of the people.  If it was in thrall to gangster oligarchs and corporations.  If many of its leading lights were only working for themselves or for other sovereign states.  It probably could happen.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: brat-sampson on December 04, 2018, 11:30:06 AM
Munching on chlorine to own the libs EU.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 04, 2018, 11:31:21 AM
Re Krugman, Britain has lowered its standards on so many things due to austerity. We can't lower our standards any further.


That's not his argument. He's saying projections that don't factor in policy reaction are flawed, whatever that reaction is - even if its a temporary fallback.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on December 04, 2018, 11:59:42 AM
Regarding unliteral Article 50 revocation - this is still conditional on good faith, broadly. Other member states could go to ECJ in the case of any specific attempt to revoke and challenge on the basis that it's a negotiation tactic and not a genuine decision to return and remain.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 04, 2018, 12:03:05 PM
Cox now caviling on the meaning of 'full' and 'advice'.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 04, 2018, 12:06:52 PM
Cox now caviling on the meaning of 'full' and 'advice'.

I don’t think MPs are in the mood to be convinced by that.

The government will probably lose the contempt vote, but it may get its amendment through kicking it down the road until after the vote when it matters less.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 04, 2018, 12:07:01 PM
Quote
The government has been dealt an early blow ahead of the start of the Commons debate on the PM's Brexit deal this afternoon.

Some 16 Tory MPs have launched a bid to ensure the motion proposed by the government to approve the agreement can be amended.

If passed, this will allow the House of Commons to attach conditions to the result of a vote on the Brexit deal, giving parliament the power to take greater control of the Brexit process.

These could possibly include ruling out a "no-deal" Brexit, provisions for a Norway-style future relationship with the EU, or the need for a second EU referendum.

I think the path here is started to become clear. 'Revoke article 50' amendment is attached to the bill in the event MPs cant agree a deal. MPs then don't agree a deal, article 50 is revoked, they all get what they wanted all along and fuck you voters.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 04, 2018, 12:09:24 PM
I think the path here is started to become clear. 'Revoke article 50' amendment is attached to the bill in the event MPs cant agree a deal. MPs then don't agree a deal, article 50 is revoked, they all get what they wanted all along and fuck you voters.

No chance of that. A second vote maybe, or conditions attached the EU can’t accept, but no chance of a straight Article 50 revoking.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Blumf on December 04, 2018, 12:14:05 PM
I think the path here is started to become clear. 'Revoke article 50' amendment is attached to the bill in the event MPs cant agree a deal. MPs then don't agree a deal, article 50 is revoked, they all get what they wanted all along and fuck you voters.

Except UKIP would come back and steal a load of Tory (and some Labour, but mostly Tory) voters.

It's like every direction the Conservatives could possibly go fucks them over.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 04, 2018, 12:23:37 PM
No chance of that. A second vote maybe, or conditions attached the EU can’t accept, but no chance of a straight Article 50 revoking.


If they can't agree on a second referendum then its either revoke or we automatically trigger no deal by not having an agreement by March?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 04, 2018, 12:27:05 PM
Has she GONE yet?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 04, 2018, 12:27:41 PM
Except UKIP would come back and steal a load of Tory (and some Labour, but mostly Tory) voters.

It's like every direction the Conservatives could possibly go fucks them over.

Yet they never get fucked over, just mutate.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 04, 2018, 12:41:36 PM
Has she GONE yet?

Months back, but her withered shell still stalks number 10.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 04, 2018, 12:42:22 PM
Animated entirely by british custard.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 04, 2018, 12:54:42 PM
Animated entirely by british custard.

Before Thatcher closed the mines it was known proudly as Coalman’s Mustard.

It’s political correctness gone mad.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 04, 2018, 12:58:23 PM
The national coal mining museum now has an underground colliery Santa, what have the EU got to say about that?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 04, 2018, 01:12:16 PM
The national coal mining museum now has an underground colliery Santa, what have the EU got to say about that?

As long as it’s the real Santa I can’t see what their issue would be.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 04, 2018, 01:13:51 PM
As long as it’s the real Santa I can’t see what their issue would be.


I don't remember the real santa covered in coal dust. I suppose he must have been though, if you think about it.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 04, 2018, 01:19:54 PM
I don't remember the real santa covered in coal dust. I suppose he must have been though, if you think about it.

Yeah if anything it’s all you can remember, when you properly internalise it.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: jobotic on December 04, 2018, 01:20:34 PM
Has this Truss business been posted yet?

Embrace the chaos

https://mobile.twitter.com/ZackPolanski/status/1069641587251183619?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1069641587251183619&ref_url=file%3A%2F%2F%2Fdata%2Fdata%2Fcom.guardian%2Ffiles%2Fpolitics%2Flive%2F2018%2Fdec%2F04%2Fbrexit-debate-contempt-parliament-mps-ecj-theresa-may-prepares-to-open-historic-debate-as-ecj-opinion-encourages-anti-brexit-campaigners-politics-live
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 04, 2018, 01:24:22 PM
You lying swine Andrea:

Quote
Leadsom says, if MPs continue to use similar efforts to seek the publication of information, they might request "information that could compromise national security or which might put the lives of our troops in danger".

If all else fails though, you can always accuse labour of trying to get our troops killed by asking to see the full legal advice on brexit.


Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 04, 2018, 01:57:39 PM
You lying swine Andrea:

If all else fails though, you can always accuse labour of trying to get our troops killed by asking to see the full legal advice on brexit.

Bizarre and unsettling SHITE

Loved this from the Truss thing
Quote
Truss: My new vision is all about the roads. We need to push to get company sponsorship for the Top 10 motorways. Like they have in the USA where Burger King sponsor pot holes. We'll wait until the New Year though because obviously now everything is consumed by Brexit.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Captain Z on December 04, 2018, 02:10:06 PM
This pothole is brought to you by the Conservative party!

No exit means no exit!

The layby's not for u-turning.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: olliebean on December 04, 2018, 02:38:23 PM
Quote
Truss: At Cabinet Meeting (!) Jeremy said we need to get Brexiteers out. Liam and Michael suggested - someone suggested Penny & Andrea and there was silence. I found it a bit sexist really. At least Michaels got credibility, though. 10/13

Fucking hell.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 04, 2018, 03:58:43 PM
Looks like plans for this debate are falling apart. Labour released a press release earlier calling on May to join Corbyn in a proper head-to-head debate on Itv.

We could end up with the farcical situation that May is on the BBC non-answering questions as usual while Corbyn is on the other side.

Presumably the Lib-Dems can be on Channel 4, Plaid Cymru on S4C and the SNP on STV. UKIP could be put on a revived L!ve TV channel.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 04, 2018, 04:02:17 PM
Good, fuck it off.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 04, 2018, 04:05:49 PM
The layby's not for u-turning.

Never mind I thought you said labia!!
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 04, 2018, 04:08:12 PM
BBC abandoned the debate idea now.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 04, 2018, 04:08:49 PM
The TV debate is pointless at this stage anyway considering its not a public vote.


May just wanted to get a mini general election thing going where she'd get all her MPs geed up to see it as the usual tory vs labour bunfight and fall into line, rather than a fundamental matter of principal about something that crosses party lines.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 04, 2018, 04:09:12 PM
BBC abandoned the debate idea now.

Clowns all over the place, it's fantastic.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 04, 2018, 04:13:11 PM
Hehe!

So the only debate May can get now is the head to head one she specifically wanted to avoid!

Brilliant. Just brilliant.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 04, 2018, 05:04:24 PM
Crickey, they lost the contempt of vote motion - first time in history apperently.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 04, 2018, 05:07:51 PM
Amazing how everyone else's headline is 'government found in contempt of parliament' whereas the BBCs is 'government to publish legal advice in full'.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: greencalx on December 04, 2018, 05:26:27 PM
I’m glad Corbyn Stück two fingers up to the BBC. I still broadly support the notion of publicly funded broadcasting but it has to be impartial.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Pranet on December 04, 2018, 05:50:19 PM
Amazing how everyone else's headline is 'government found in contempt of parliament' whereas the BBCs is 'government to publish legal advice in full'.

That isn't accurate. For instance, the Guardian has it set out almost exactly the same as it is set out on the BBC website, "Full Legal Advice to published after government loses vote" in big letters and "Historic motion is passed by 18 votes to find government in contempt of parliment" in smaller letters, while the BBC has "Full legal advice to be published" in big letters followed by "The government will publish its full legal advice on Theresa May's Brexit deal after MPs found it in contempt of Parliament for not doing so." in a smaller font.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 04, 2018, 05:55:31 PM
It was accurate when I posted, they might have changed it since. The BBC purposefully downplayed the amazing fact the government has lost a contempt motion by not even including it in the headline.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Pranet on December 04, 2018, 05:56:38 PM
Of course it was and of course they did biggy.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 04, 2018, 06:15:56 PM
That isn't accurate. For instance, the Guardian has it set out almost exactly the same as it is set out on the BBC website, "Full Legal Advice to published after government loses vote" in big letters and "Historic motion is passed by 18 votes to find government in contempt of parliment" in smaller letters, while the BBC has "Full legal advice to be published" in big letters followed by "The government will publish its full legal advice on Theresa May's Brexit deal after MPs found it in contempt of Parliament for not doing so." in a smaller font.

That is why the MSM are dead. Fucking state of that.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 04, 2018, 06:19:26 PM
They can't bury it for long though.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Funcrusher on December 04, 2018, 06:22:42 PM
Imagine how the BBC would report an afternoon in which a Corbyn led government lost three hugely important votes prior to probably losing a fourth.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 04, 2018, 06:23:24 PM
They'd probably do it pretty differently wouldn't they!
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Pranet on December 04, 2018, 06:26:29 PM
That's fine, I'm sure they are all evil neo liberal centrist warmongers or whatever it is. I just got annoyed by the phrase "everyone else's headline" when literally the first other place I looked presented it almost exactly the same way the BBC did. And also by the implication that the contempt side was totally ignored. Accuracy does matter a bit.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Funcrusher on December 04, 2018, 06:27:06 PM
They'd probably do it pretty differently wouldn't they!

Shame that that's the state of our public service broadcaster.  Still, never mind!
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 04, 2018, 06:27:54 PM
Of course it was and of course they did biggy.

If this isn't deliberetly downplaying a calamatious defeat for the government I don't know what is

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtlqZFAW0AApoOS?format=jpg&name=orig)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: H-O-W-L on December 04, 2018, 06:28:10 PM
Clowns all over the place, it's fantastic.

We're trapped inside a giant burning big top and the clowns won't stop doing their act to try and entertain the children even as flaming roof beams begin plummeting toward the stage.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Kryton on December 04, 2018, 06:29:10 PM
It was accurate when I posted, they might have changed it since. The BBC purposefully downplayed the amazing fact the government has lost a contempt motion by not even including it in the headline.

(https://i.imgur.com/1lbJNUV.jpg)

It's fine Biggy. It's all fine. It took them less than hour.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: thraxx on December 04, 2018, 06:29:35 PM
That Theresa May Statement to the house in full:  "Hang on a minu..., wait, if I can j... I will fini... let me just...'.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on December 04, 2018, 06:31:22 PM
That Theresa May Statement to the house in full:  "Hang on a minu..., wait, if I can j... I will fini... let me just...'.

"Poo to you with knobs on!"
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 04, 2018, 06:32:07 PM
Kuenssberggg : MPs TAKE CONTROL
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 04, 2018, 06:33:07 PM
Have you ever seen Hammond with an expression other than this?

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2018/12/4/93362792-34c4-4175-8144-b6a750f457fc.jpg)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 04, 2018, 06:34:31 PM
Quote from: @GuardianHeather
Strong speech on a terrible day from the PM - says the endless Brexit debate is "corrosive for our politics"; and life involves compromise.

I assume GuardianHeather works for the Guardian.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 04, 2018, 06:41:51 PM
Have you ever seen Hammond with an expression other than this?

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2018/12/4/93362792-34c4-4175-8144-b6a750f457fc.jpg)

The Farting Kermit, that expression is called.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 04, 2018, 06:42:51 PM
I hope someone actually has a mental breakdown in the house of commons, right in front of everyone. A proper Glen Cullen moment.

"WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT HITLER?! WELL HE'S GOT A MOUSTACHE AND HE LIVES OVER THERE"
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: jobotic on December 04, 2018, 06:48:03 PM
Anyone wonder what the Telegraph, Times, Sun, Mail, Sky or ITV are saying?

No. MSM = BBC and The Guardian. I mean I agree with the criticisms on here on the whole, and I make them too sometimes, even if Funcrusher thinks The Guardian is a wank mag for me. But fucking hell.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: mothman on December 04, 2018, 06:48:58 PM
DP

I’ve heard some pretty wild format proposals for the TV debate. That may be going too far however.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Funcrusher on December 04, 2018, 06:58:04 PM
Anyone wonder what the Telegraph, Times, Sun, Mail, Sky or ITV are saying?

No. MSM = BBC and The Guardian.

Who is saying that MSM= BBC and the Guardian? No one.  The Telegraph, Times, Sun, Mail and Sky are owned by right wing oligarchs and exist to propogate their views. The BBC is a public service broadcaster and The Guardian is allegedly a left of centre, progressive independent paper. This is why they are held to a different standard. Why would I care what The Mail says?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 04, 2018, 06:59:21 PM
I’ve heard some pretty wild format proposals for the TV debate. That may be going too far however.


Corbyn and Trevor Mcdonald double teaming Theresa May. That would 'ram home' her deal all right.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Pranet on December 04, 2018, 07:01:02 PM
Anyone wonder what the Telegraph, Times, Sun, Mail, Sky or ITV are saying?

No. MSM = BBC and The Guardian. I mean I agree with the criticisms on here on the whole, and I make them too sometimes, even if Funcrusher thinks The Guardian is a wank mag for me. But fucking hell.

Not even what they are saying, but how the headlines are set out at a specific point in time on a website which by its very nature changes (the headline as I type is "Brexit: Full legal advice to be published after contempt vote" fwiw.)

I was going to write something like it would be better to concentrate on actual concrete examples of bias, or problems with their conception of balance (eg having a climate change denier on to debate on the same level as someone who knows what he is talking about), rather than excitably over reacting to ephemeral nothings, but actually what recent history has taught me is that no, you definitely should do the second thing.

Anyway, I always get annoyed with myself when I let myself get dragged into these sorts of discussions and there are more important things happening on this topic...
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Funcrusher on December 04, 2018, 07:01:36 PM
I’ve heard some pretty wild format proposals for the TV debate. That may be going too far however.

They could do a version of 'The Chase' or 'Tipping Point'.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on December 04, 2018, 07:02:50 PM
They could do a version of 'The Chase' or 'Tipping Point'.

'Pointless' surely?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 04, 2018, 07:04:49 PM
Anyone wonder what the Telegraph, Times, Sun, Mail, Sky or ITV are saying?

No. MSM = BBC and The Guardian. I mean I agree with the criticisms on here on the whole, and I make them too sometimes, even if Funcrusher thinks The Guardian is a wank mag for me. But fucking hell.


Exactly, and what is the guardian if it isn't anti war, and pro Corbyn? Yet in recent years its become the warmongers gazette, a direct conduit of security service propganda and has played a crucial role in undermining Corbyn on his own side.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: mothman on December 04, 2018, 07:06:17 PM
They could do a version of 'The Chase' or 'Tipping Point'.

If the current Doctor Who series has established anything, it’s that the involvement of Bradley Walsh can improve anything, however bad it is.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 04, 2018, 07:26:02 PM
If the current Doctor Who series has established anything, it’s that the involvement of Bradley Walsh can improve anything, however bad it is.

He was good in Law&order UK
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: thraxx on December 04, 2018, 07:30:41 PM

Who knew that Andrea Leadsom does her clothes shopping down in Walford on Bianca Butcher's market stall.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 04, 2018, 08:59:52 PM
Grieve amendment passed with some provision for MPs to dictate a 'Plan B'.

Government not in control any more. Difficult to see how they can pull this back together: the genie is out of the bottle.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 04, 2018, 09:07:48 PM
Only problem with that is what on Earth can Parliament agree on to put in Plan B?

But yeah, what little control government had on proceedings is gone. Parliament has taken over.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Dr Trouser on December 04, 2018, 09:20:12 PM
The SNP europe chap just used the Glaswegian phrase 'gubbed' on sky TV.

Yes, yes she is truly gubbed.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on December 04, 2018, 09:23:56 PM
Quote
Theresa May has lost as many votes in one day as Gordon Brown did in his entire premiership

lol
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on December 04, 2018, 09:27:54 PM
Hey guys, when are the opposition going to show up and hold this government to account?!?

:D :D :D

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/20/labour-cannot-win-jeremy-corbyn-im-voting-for-owen-smith-says-sadiq-khan
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36664845/ed-miliband-calls-for-jeremy-corbyn-to-stand-down
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/19/jeremy-corbyn-labour-threat-party-election-support

Quote
Will there be 150, 125, 100 Labour MPs by the end of the flaying? My advice is to think of a number then halve it.
Quote
One senior Labour figure told me he thought Corbyn was endangering British democracy. It depends on the opposition being a government-in-waiting. Labour looks now as if it will never be in government again
Quote
In my respectful opinion, your only honourable response will be to stop being a fucking fool by changing your fucking mind.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: finnquark on December 04, 2018, 10:02:29 PM
The best of the rest this evening in the Commons - Cable, Soubry, Dodds, Paterson. They've all got their eye on posterity, you can tell they've been polishing these speeches for a good few weeks. Ultimately that's what this debate is all about, for five preposterous days.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on December 04, 2018, 10:04:23 PM
Before Soubry has even opened her mouth you can sense the conceitedness. She's no more a hero for Remain than Boris Johnson is for leave. They are both fucking clowns playing to a gallery outside the commons. You can almost sense the weariness when either rise to speak in the Commons. Hundreds of MPs trying to find their happy place until they shut their absolute fucking shit up.

She really wants to hang on in that marginal constituency, seems to be working as well, and yet Remainers are actually helping a Tory retain her seat in the process.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: finnquark on December 04, 2018, 10:06:57 PM
Before Soubry has even opened her mouth you can sense the conceitedness. She's no more a hero for Remain than Boris Johnson is for leave. They are both fucking clowns playing to a gallery outside the commons. You can almost sense the weariness when either rise to speak in the Commons. Hundreds of MPs trying to find their happy place until they shut their absolute fucking shit up.

She really wants to hang on in that marginal constituency, seems to be working as well, and yet Remainers are actually helping a Tory retain her seat in the process.

Or at this pre-modern hour of the night, tens. The lunacy of this debate is giving Owen Paterson no time limit for his byzantine ramblings, whilst sitting past midnight with the chamber a tenth-full.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: finnquark on December 04, 2018, 10:13:31 PM
Roger Godsiff with a really interesting speech discussing the idea of representative democracy vs direct democracy. Great, vital stuff at 22.15 on a Tuesday night.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on December 04, 2018, 10:17:07 PM
Before Soubry has even opened her mouth you can sense the conceitedness. She's no more a hero for Remain than Boris Johnson is for leave. They are both fucking clowns playing to a gallery outside the commons. You can almost sense the weariness when either rise to speak in the Commons. Hundreds of MPs trying to find their happy place until they shut their absolute fucking shit up.

She really wants to hang on in that marginal constituency, seems to be working as well, and yet Remainers are actually helping a Tory retain her seat in the process.

That’s my constituency and it really isn’t working :)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Funcrusher on December 04, 2018, 10:56:54 PM
So on the day when May's government is in disarray and has been pummelled by three defeats in Parliament, you would guess that BBC News would have folks from both sides of the political divide reviewing tomorrow's papers. We have an editor of fucking banker rag City AM and the head of the Association of Chartered Accountants.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Urinal Cake on December 04, 2018, 11:41:38 PM
The wise thing for May to do is to step aside and move to Australia like the cast of The Chaser.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 05, 2018, 09:49:40 AM
It's interesting how the threat of a hard border in N. Ireland issue has been so ruthlessly exploited in all this, yet little reported that it's been ruled out by all parties, indeed Leo Varadkar could not be more categorical about it here - https://twitter.com/Change_Britain/status/1069978371390615552 saying there will not be a hard border under any circumstance, full stop.


So why has May persisted in peddling this possibility that everyone has ruled out from ever happening? More bullshit to scare us into supporting her shitty deal?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 05, 2018, 09:56:40 AM
Well, he says 'In a No Deal scenario, at least until there is a deal, and there will have to be a deal, we won't be installing a hard border'

And 'if that scenario arose', 'we're not drawing up any plans for' etc. etc.

It's not the most unequivocal refusal.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 05, 2018, 10:01:31 AM
It's interesting how the threat of a hard border in N. Ireland issue has been so ruthlessly exploited in all this, yet little reported that it's been ruled out by all parties, indeed Leo Varadkar could not be more categorical about it here - https://twitter.com/Change_Britain/status/1069978371390615552 saying there will not be a hard border under any circumstance, full stop.


So why has May persisted in peddling this possibility that everyone has ruled out from ever happening? More bullshit to scare us into supporting her shitty deal?

DUP for one. If there's no border in Ireland, suppose you are EU benefit thief and you go Dublin, then wander over Belfast and get ferry UK then you steal all are taxpayers hard-earned benefits. So where is border? Irish sea. DUP go cray cray.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 05, 2018, 10:03:47 AM
Well, he says 'In a No Deal scenario, at least until there is a deal, and there will have to be a deal, we won't be installing a hard border'

And 'if that scenario arose', 'we're not drawing up any plans for' etc. etc.

It's not the most unequivocal refusal.

You missed where he said there will not be a hard border under any circumstances at all - full stop? It could not be more unequivocal.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 05, 2018, 10:09:56 AM
I did miss that. Could still be bollocks though. What are the other borders between EU and non EU states like (not Norway or Switzerland - we don't want the Norway model apparently)?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 05, 2018, 10:15:40 AM
Not sure about that, a lot of people are saying the Grieve amendment yesterday might end up a with the Norway option on the table. Interesting that the banks are starting to salivate though:

Quote
JP Morgan updated Brexit probabilities:
Orderly Brexit: 50% (was 60%)
No Brexit: 40% (was 20%)
No deal: 10% (was 20%)
Says ECJ opinion yday the biggest factor changing its probabilities

Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 05, 2018, 10:22:24 AM
Not sure about that, a lot of people are saying the Grieve amendment yesterday might end up a with the Norway option on the table. Interesting that the banks are starting to salivate though:

Of course they're salivating. They would get to keep their financial passports. But just because they're happy, it doesn't follows that we shouldn't be.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: thraxx on December 05, 2018, 10:25:28 AM
I did miss that. Could still be bollocks though. What are the other borders between EU and non EU states like (not Norway or Switzerland - we don't want the Norway model apparently)?

I was thinking this.  There is no hard border between France and Switzerland anyway, and same for Norway and Sweden.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 05, 2018, 10:30:50 AM
The Irish border lie has been a cynical operation designed to manipulate us into this shitty deal, that much is apparent.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 05, 2018, 10:33:01 AM
I was thinking this.  There is no hard border between France and Switzerland anyway, and same for Norway and Sweden.

And that has a great deal to do with, among other things, Schengen doesn't it? Can't see Leave voters being too happy if we left the EU but signed up to that!
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 05, 2018, 10:37:27 AM
The Irish border lie has been a cynical operation designed to manipulate us into this shitty deal, that much is apparent.

How can you 'take back control' of your borders if you don't have one?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on December 05, 2018, 10:39:46 AM
This is where WTO most favoured nation regs rear their head. If we continue to trade with RoI with no formal trade agreement in place and freedom of movement of goods, capital, services and labour, WTO schedules would dictate that we'd have to offer the same to other third countries with whom we have no formal trade agreement.

And on the 29th March next year, that's every single one of them.

The only way to avoid that is by making some level of agreement that keeps at least part of the UK in the single market and customs union. For example, by signing NI up to the single market and customs union and putting a border in the Irish sea. That would work.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 05, 2018, 10:40:16 AM
How can you 'take back control' of your borders if you don't have one?


Probably because Ireland and the UK have a very different, complex relationship and history thats completely independent and separate of the EU?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: TrenterPercenter on December 05, 2018, 10:46:17 AM
Not sure about that, a lot of people are saying the Grieve amendment yesterday might end up a with the Norway option on the table. Interesting that the banks are starting to salivate though:

You really do come across as someone that has got a bet on Brexit that they stand to lose if Brexit doesn't happen.

I'll say again to you:  Trying emesh the politics of JRM and Tony Benn together around a largely xenophobic campaign against the EU, progressed by an incompetent Tory government concerned with internal politics, whilst glossing over the murder of an MP and various lies over funding is a terrible look.

It could have worked if it was a genuine attempt to "unite" the country around something, it couldn't be Brexit as it meant different things for different people (due to above).

Most leftists have been trying to unite people for centuries, trying to get people to see how collectivist decisions can give people power and defence against the smaller yet powerful vested interests that exist in the world.  You harp on like you and the Brexit "movement" are the sole architects of the notion that the obvious progression of capitalism goes into financial monopolies (whilst harbouring disaster capitalists and pro-JP morganites at the very forefront of your movement!!) us on the left have been talking about these things and have been murdered throughout history.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 05, 2018, 11:10:33 AM
You can caricature my views all you like, whilst I obviously believe the EU is an anti-democratic bosses club designed to enforce an economic model that suits finance capitalism and big corporations - who doesn't believe that, my main reason to leave is that its one step in the right direction towards making the practical, pragmatic decisions we need to address the problems of 2018. We can't address the problems of inequality, hopelessness and the burning mistrust in the political classes and the failure of democratic accountability inside a body that is actively causing those problems.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Jittlebags on December 05, 2018, 11:22:54 AM
How to you square your Bosses Club assertion with such things as the Working Time directive and Bathing Water Directive ?

Personally I'm looking forward to ditching the Bathing Water Directive so we can pump as much shit into the sea as we can to minimise costs for industry and make us more productive.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 05, 2018, 11:44:44 AM
How to you square your Bosses Club assertion with such things as the Working Time directive and Bathing Water Directive ?

Personally I'm looking forward to ditching the Bathing Water Directive so we can pump as much shit into the sea as we can to minimise costs for industry and make us more productive.


Yes because if we werent in the EU we're such a dark ages back water we'd all be wading around knee deep in raw sewage.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 05, 2018, 11:45:15 AM
From the legal advice they were forced to release -

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtplOlxXQAABpqL.jpg)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 05, 2018, 12:07:42 PM
Nothing we didn’t already know, but the language is painfully blunt for May.

They probably released it as close before PMQs as possible so the opposition wouldn’t have much time to get juicy quotes to use on her. They couldn’t leave it until after PMQs as she’d get attacked for not releasing it yet.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: TrenterPercenter on December 05, 2018, 12:07:49 PM
You can caricature my views all you like, whilst I obviously believe the EU is an anti-democratic bosses club designed to enforce an economic model that suits finance capitalism and big corporations - who doesn't believe that, my main reason to leave is that its one step in the right direction towards making the practical, pragmatic decisions we need to address the problems of 2018. We can't address the problems of inequality, hopelessness and the burning mistrust in the political classes and the failure of democratic accountability inside a body that is actively causing those problems.

You are not being caricatured.

So your main reasons for leaving are:

Inequality - absolutely tied to economics

Hopelessness - This is actually the most important in this conversation as it is really your motivation. You are a victim that has fallen for the promise of emancipation, you've allowed people in emotionally to erect a frame for you to see the world through.  Have a think about this ffs if you actually want to really understand what is going on in the world and not just in some symbiotic relationship between your fantasies about emancipation and the desires of politicians.

Burning mistrust - Yes, absolutely that is why having serial liars at the forefront of your movement isn't a good thing.  Lying yourself isn't a good thing.  Never trying to seek consensus isn't a good thing.  Applying different levels of criticism based on which side you are on whilst aping on about how the other side does it so it's all fine isn't a good thing.

Break yourself free from this mental cul-de-sac mate, that doesn't mean becoming a massive remainer (that would be just a stupid), it means dealing with reality and not partitioning logic as to when and were it suits (btw a complete arsehole and regularly exerciser of this is mega-remainer and centrist dad in chief James O'Brien).
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on December 05, 2018, 12:11:35 PM

Yes because if we werent in the EU we're such a dark ages back water we'd all be wading around knee deep in raw sewage.

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/08/12/even-in-the-us-access-to-clean-water-can-be-tough

It's almost as if when presented with the opportunity to deregulate for the benefit of corporations, things start to go wrong for people.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on December 05, 2018, 12:11:41 PM
Nothing we didn’t already know
And indeed Cox actually reported that bit to the Commons. (Although, yes, we knew this in 2016.)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 05, 2018, 12:16:12 PM
https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/08/12/even-in-the-us-access-to-clean-water-can-be-tough (https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/08/12/even-in-the-us-access-to-clean-water-can-be-tough)

It's almost as if when presented with the opportunity to deregulate for the benefit of corporations, things start to go wrong for people.


America isnt the UK though, not now, not before we were in the EU, not ever.


Virtually all the good things we have in this country were brought to us by our national government, labour ones especially.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on December 05, 2018, 12:16:13 PM
It's interesting how the threat of a hard border in N. Ireland issue has been so ruthlessly exploited in all this, yet little reported that it's been ruled out by all parties, indeed Leo Varadkar could not be more categorical about it here - https://twitter.com/Change_Britain/status/1069978371390615552 saying there will not be a hard border under any circumstance, full stop.
Why do you believe these statements, and not others by the same people? Who is going to come out at say, at this point, that we're gearing up to violate the GFA?

As pancreas points out, a likely alternative is binning the UK, in practice if not in name. A slightly less bad violation of the GFA to my mind, but not terribly democratic or fair by any other standard.

Otherwise it's also going to pose a problem for any future government that doesn't want to give the rest of the world - bosses' clubs, don't forget them - watertight excuses to exercise some exceptionally punitive trade measures against the UK.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: jobotic on December 05, 2018, 12:18:09 PM
Jesus, listening to PMQs makes me feel sick. Corbyn talking about what these vermin are doing to the poor and the disabled and they are laughing at it all, between lies. The Tories have had to be told to stop braying.

She's also going for the mess we inherited.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 05, 2018, 12:21:34 PM
Them laughing was awful, then she made us imagine her having a smear test :(
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on December 05, 2018, 12:25:22 PM

America isnt the UK though, not now, not before we were in the EU, not ever.


Virtually all the good things we have in this country were brought to us by our national government, labour ones especially.

Your Brexiteer mates don't agree with that. Still, good job Liam Fox and Jeremy Hunt are nowhere near government. Oh, no, wait.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 05, 2018, 12:27:01 PM
Why do you believe these statements, and not others by the same people? Who is going to come out at say, at this point, that we're gearing up to violate the GFA?

As pancreas points out, a likely alternative is binning the UK, in practice if not in name. A slightly less bad violation of the GFA to my mind, but not terribly democratic or fair by any other standard.

Otherwise it's also going to pose a problem for any future government that doesn't want to give the rest of the world - bosses' clubs, don't forget them - watertight excuses to exercise some exceptionally punitive trade measures against the UK.


Wow, and this coming from Mr 'just ignore the rules' Zetetic. You've changed your tune?


You don't disagree that Varadkar was completely unequivocal though right? I mean he could just be lying but what he said was beyond clear - there will be no hard border whatever happens.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Neville Chamberlain on December 05, 2018, 12:31:57 PM
I'd interpret Varadkar's "there will be no hard border" statement as more sort of "look there absolutely cannot be a fucking hard border no fucking way this can't be happening" - so a sort of desperate cry of frustration rather than a simple prediction of the future.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 05, 2018, 12:32:21 PM
It’s highly unlikely. The backstop could kick in virtually permanently and that just moves the border from the two Irelands to the Irish Sea, to the DUP’s not inconsiderable outrage.

A hard border is not impossible though.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 05, 2018, 12:33:29 PM
Your Brexiteer mates don't agree with that. Still, good job Liam Fox and Jeremy Hunt are nowhere near government. Oh, no, wait.

It'd be up to the whole country what direction we go in if we leave the EU (we're not so its academic now), considering we're a democracy and not a dictatorship or absolute monarchy. I'm surprised this even needs explaining to you. You also appear to be unable to explain what the EU did to stop austerity or privatisation or the hollowing out of whole parts of our economy? Fuck all of course, quite the opposite - thats what they're doing to the rest of the continent.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 05, 2018, 12:34:47 PM

Wow, and this coming from Mr 'just ignore the rules' Zetetic. You've changed your tune?

You don't listen, do you? You're confecting hypocrisy where there isn't any.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Pdine on December 05, 2018, 12:35:06 PM

America isnt the UK though, not now, not before we were in the EU, not ever.

I grew up on the coast and caught a serious infection when eight from untreated sewage being routinely pumped into the bathing water. EU regulations, combined with large scale net EU investment into the region, led to that problem being fixed. As usual you have no fucking idea what you are talking about.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: jobotic on December 05, 2018, 12:35:22 PM
Them laughing was awful, then she made us imagine her having a smear test :(

That was the only bit I didn't object to.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: jobotic on December 05, 2018, 12:36:12 PM
It'd be up to the whole country what direction we go in if we leave the EU (we're not so its academic now), considering we're a democracy and not a dictatorship or absolute monarchy. I'm surprised this even needs explaining to you. You also appear to be unable to explain what the EU did to stop austerity or privatisation or the hollowing out of whole parts of our economy? Fuck all of course, quite the opposite - thats what they're doing to the rest of the continent.

Fucking hell I can't stand any more
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on December 05, 2018, 12:37:14 PM
Wow, and this coming from Mr 'just ignore the rules' Zetetic. You've changed your tune?
I don't think I have. Leaving the EU changes our relationship with fellow member states, and presumptions of good faith and so on (even under a government perceived as ideologically difficult), and it explicitly changes the expectations under international law for punitive retributions for violating trade arrangements in many (most? all?) cases.

There are things you can get away with in some circumstances that you can't in others, and some rules are more flexible than others. We know that member states routinely violate things that are nominally expected of them that they'd likely be censored for, harshly, under similar FTA type arrangements (or simply as fellow European states in the case of Article 2 violations, perhaps).

Leaving the EU, we will be desperate to prove that we can establish trade arrangements that we won't violate too badly. It's possible that we can try to abuse Northern Ireland and do this, I suppose, although I can't work out how.

Quote
You don't disagree that Varadkar was completely unequivocal though right? I mean he could just be lying but what he said was beyond clear - there will be no hard border whatever happens.
From the Irish side, I imagine there's absolutely no desire to. (Future administrations may change their mind, and it's not impossible that other member states could force their hand, right? Surely you're more open to this possibility than I am, given your beliefs about the EU?)

Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 05, 2018, 12:44:48 PM
I grew up on the coast and caught a serious infection when eight from untreated sewage being routinely pumped into the bathing water. EU regulations, combined with large scale net EU investment into the region, led to that problem being fixed. As usual you have no fucking idea what you are talking about.

Yeah, if we weren't in the EU we'd just have spent the next 40 years paddling around in turds. You're making the same tragic mistake of imagining an alternative reality where we're not in the EU and we just spend the intervening decades in a void, fixed in time forever wearing flairs and flowery shirts like that frozen woolly mammoth they found that still had undigested grass it its belly. No political activity, no campaigning on issues, no elections, no media coverage, nope, we're not in the EU so we just wallow in our own effluence instead, robbed of all agency to improve our own lives and country because we're so awful we'd literally never have gotten our shit together and sorted any of our own problems out.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on December 05, 2018, 12:48:29 PM
It'd be up to the whole country what direction we go in if we leave the EU

No, it's up to the Tory government which is in power until at least June 2022.

Quote
(we're not so its academic now)

Mate

Quote
considering we're a democracy and not a dictatorship or absolute monarchy.

A democracy with a fixed term parliament, yes.

Quote
I'm surprised this even needs explaining to you. You also appear to be unable to explain what the EU did to stop austerity or privatisation or the hollowing out of whole parts of our economy? Fuck all of course, quite the opposite - thats what they're doing to the rest of the continent.

Sorry, are the EU an overbearing force of evil that destroys the public sector against the wishes of the member states or an impotent, failing regime that can't stop the right wing parties that people voted into power from destroying the public sector?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Pdine on December 05, 2018, 12:50:41 PM
Yeah, if we weren't in the EU we'd just have spent the next 40 years paddling around in turds. You're making the same tragic mistake of imagining an alternative reality where we're not in the EU and we just spend the intervening decades in a void, fixed in time forever wearing flairs and flowery shirts like that frozen woolly mammoth they found that still had undigested grass it its belly. No political activity, no campaigning on issues, no elections, no media coverage, nope, we're not in the EU so we just wallow in our own effluence instead, robbed of all agency to improve our own lives and country because we're so shit and awful we'd literally never have gotten our shit together and sorted any of our own problems out.

I speak from first hand knowledge of the effect, the campaign, the funding and the action taken. You're wrong. Prior to leverage from the EU and their investment, decades of local activism had resulted in nothing. Typically for a Brexit proponent you favour your own unsupported assumptions over evidence.

edit to add: Also note that you've gone from denying that we ever did pump untreated sewage into bathing water:


Yes because if we werent in the EU we're such a dark ages back water we'd all be wading around knee deep in raw sewage.

...to now imagining that we couldn't possibly have continued. You never admit these shifts, but anyone who takes on the sad task of reading your posts can't fail but notice them. For once be honest and admit you were wrong on this.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 05, 2018, 12:53:34 PM
I speak from first hand knowledge of the effect, the campaign, the funding and the action taken. You're wrong. Prior to leverage from the EU and their investment, decades of local activism had resulted in nothing. Typically for a Brexit proponent you favour your own unsupported assumptions over evidence.


Well Doctor Who, please tell what else would have happened over the last 40 years if we weren't in the EU. It sounds absolutely mind-boggling that you could possibly stare into the time vortex like this, but it sounds like you can!
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Pdine on December 05, 2018, 12:55:46 PM

Well Doctor Who, please tell what else would have happened over the last 40 years if we weren't in the EU. It sounds absolutely mind-boggling that you could possibly stare into the time vortex like this, but it sounds like you can!

I am telling you what actually happened. You are theorising it might have happened anyway, despite it having failed to do so for a century prior to the EU regulation and funding affecting the change. The onus is on you to provide evidence for this speculation, obviously.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on December 05, 2018, 01:02:23 PM

Well Doctor Who, please tell what else would have happened over the last 40 years if we weren't in the EU. It sounds absolutely mind-boggling that you could possibly stare into the time vortex like this, but it sounds like you can!

It sounds like you can.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 05, 2018, 01:03:16 PM
I am telling you what actually happened. You are theorising it might have happened anyway, despite it having failed to do so for a century prior to the EU regulation and funding affecting the change. The onus is on you to provide evidence for this speculation, obviously.

I've got hundreds of years of the UK parliament bringing in laws about all sorts of stuff - clean air, working conditions, health and safety, equal pay, seat belts etc etc, what have you got - a crystal ball.


800 years of parliamentary democracy vs Mystic Meg.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Pdine on December 05, 2018, 01:05:47 PM

I've got hundreds of years of the UK parliament bringing in laws about all sorts of stuff, what have you got - a crystal ball. 800 years of parliamentary democracy vs Mystic Meg.

Poor effort, and your sad riposte shows you know it. 'Laws about all sorts of stuff'? Pathetic. 
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 05, 2018, 01:09:28 PM
Guys, the Brexit thread is over there. Could we at least try to stop this spilling over everything like a river of shit.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on December 05, 2018, 01:25:07 PM
No, it's up to the Tory government which is in power until at least June 2022.

Or next week.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on December 05, 2018, 01:31:54 PM
https://twitter.com/paulbranditv/status/1070288254430253056?s=21

Quote
SCOOP: Understand PM and Chief Whip are discussing a new amendment to Meaningful Vote with Brexiteers today, which would provide a 'parliamentary lock' on the backstop, meaning it cannot be entered into without consent of MPs. Hoping this concession can win over backbenchers.

Oh my Christ, these people.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 05, 2018, 01:34:49 PM
How would getting MPs to rubber stamp the backstop make a difference? If they don’t engage the backstop then it’s automatic hard Brexit.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 05, 2018, 01:43:19 PM
Another MP mentioning in the debate how all sides have said there will be no hard border, including the EU. The whole backstop thing is a negotiating tactic.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 05, 2018, 01:49:51 PM
One last time.

There will be no hard border because of the backstop. The only agreement the EU will accept once the backstop is in place after we’ve left is one where there is no hard border. So once the backstop is in place it is literally impossible for the U.K. to put a hard border in.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 05, 2018, 01:55:18 PM
The Bathing Waters Directive (76/160/EEC) of 1976 replaced by the Directive 2006/7/EC
The Urban Waste Water Treatment Directive (91/271/EEC) of 21 May 1991 concerning discharges of municipal and some industrial waste waters;
The Drinking Water Directive (98/83/EC) of 3 November 1998 concerning potable water quality;
The Water Framework Directive (2000/60/EC) of 23 October 2000 concerning water resources management.

This last one has notoriously been difficult to implement and has only been a partial success, whereas the first three have been vital in cleaning up the water cycle in member states.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 05, 2018, 01:56:23 PM
I know what the claim is, I'm saying by their own words there will be no hard border even with no deal.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 05, 2018, 02:03:53 PM
I know what the claim is, I'm saying by their own words there will be no hard border even with no deal.

What, you reckon the EU and UK will just turn a blind eye and allow goods and people back and forth in contravention of WTO rules over treating all members equally? Goods from the US would have to go through customs while EU goods from Ireland would not.

Anyway, do you think Brexiteers would go through all the pain of a hard Brexit to have a large unchecked border any immigrant can cross?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 05, 2018, 02:07:36 PM
What, you reckon the EU and UK will just turn a blind eye and allow goods and people back and forth in contravention of WTO rules over treating all members equally? Goods from the US would have to go through customs while EU goods from Ireland would not.

Anyway, do you think Brexiteers would go through all the pain of a hard Brexit to have a large unchecked border any immigrant can cross?

Ask them, not me. I was pointing out the existence of their statements. Is everything a negotiating stance?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 05, 2018, 02:08:08 PM
Guys, the Brexit thread is over there. Could we at least try to stop this spilling over everything like a river of shit.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 05, 2018, 02:09:41 PM
Yeah yeah I know. Got drawn in again.

I’ll go disembowel myself immediately. Again.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 05, 2018, 02:14:10 PM
I know what the claim is, I'm saying by their own words there will be no hard border even with no deal.

(https://blogs.susu.org/officers/files/2010/11/Nick-Clegg-tuition-fees-pledge.jpg)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 05, 2018, 02:19:15 PM
(https://blogs.susu.org/officers/files/2010/11/Nick-Clegg-tuition-fees-pledge.jpg)


I agree - but you could say the same about pretty much everyone involved with this mess at the moment.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 05, 2018, 02:24:24 PM

I agree - but you could say the same about pretty much everyone involved with this mess at the moment.

including yourself? a now central figure in the whole debacle.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 05, 2018, 02:24:27 PM
Yes
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 05, 2018, 02:39:24 PM
Add Sajid Javid to the list of liars, he just told parliament that the UK will not create a hard border in the event of no deal. What do they all have in mind? No doubt different, mutually contradictory things.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 05, 2018, 02:48:22 PM
They will put a border in the Irish sea, is my guess. Goods and people will be checked somewhere. That is the only reasonable option.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on December 05, 2018, 03:50:43 PM
I suppose, biggy, if everyone is so committed to no hard border, why is everyone fussing about the backstop?

Negotiate a deal that avoids that hard border, end backstop. What's the problem? Send it to the arbitral panel if you think that the EU is trying to fuss (for no reason that would seem to benefit them or any member state).
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on December 05, 2018, 03:52:42 PM
Link to the full advice:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/exiting-the-eu-publication-of-legal-advice

unless you'd rather read it via the medium of images of selective quotes posted to Twitter and then hotlinked here.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 05, 2018, 03:54:08 PM
I suppose, biggy, if everyone is so committed to no hard border, why is everyone fussing about the backstop?


That's what I want to know.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 05, 2018, 03:54:52 PM
Tim Farron is talking about us getting nuked if we leave.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 05, 2018, 04:01:49 PM
I don't know who this guy is speaking now but he's the first one Ive heard make the excellent and correct point that all MPs are to blame for this mess by continually voting for stuff they don't actually believe or are committed to (the referendum, article 50, their manifestos).
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 05, 2018, 04:21:22 PM
Them laughing was awful, then she made us imagine her having a smear test :(

This is called classroom behaviour management.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 05, 2018, 04:24:30 PM
Edit:  not going to get sucked in.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 05, 2018, 04:54:34 PM
This is called classroom behaviour management.


Do you make you unruly classes imagine you having a smear test?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 05, 2018, 05:01:58 PM
Do you make you unruly classes imagine you having a smear test?

Correct.  It quietens them down as long as they know what one is.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: mothman on December 06, 2018, 12:09:33 AM
I don't know who this guy is speaking now but he's the first one Ive heard make the excellent and correct point that all MPs are to blame for this mess by continually voting for stuff they don't actually believe or are committed to (the referendum, article 50, their manifestos).

And yet you seem to have absolute faith that in the brave new world when we all bask in the loving warmth of Holy Brexit, sanity and democracy will prevail:

It'd be up to the whole country what direction we go in if we leave the EU ... considering we're a democracy and not a dictatorship or absolute monarchy.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 06, 2018, 06:31:20 AM
And yet you seem to have absolute faith that in the brave new world when we all bask in the loving warmth of Holy Brexit, sanity and democracy will prevail:


We can vote them out though? How do we vote the EU out?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Buelligan on December 06, 2018, 07:05:52 AM
It's interesting how the threat of a hard border in N. Ireland issue has been so ruthlessly exploited in all this, yet little reported that it's been ruled out by all parties, indeed Leo Varadkar could not be more categorical about it here - https://twitter.com/Change_Britain/status/1069978371390615552 saying there will not be a hard border under any circumstance, full stop.

IMO, Varadkar is saying that if Britain persists in creating a legal, manufacturing and trading division on the island of Ireland through Brexit, there will need to be a point at which any goods flowing between British territory and the EU are checked for conformity, the collection of tariffs and even, legality.  Eire has no intention of putting up these checkpoints, nevertheless, he is pointing out that they will be required and it follows that it will have to be Britain, the country insisting on splitting the Union, which will be creating that border (in contravention of the Belfast Agreement).

FWIW, I'm not sure you understand the border issue.  It's not just the idea of a literal fence with customs posts that's a problem.  That is a problem, of course.  But any divergence between the EU and the UK will make that at least a temporary necessity (which will break the Belfast Agreement). 

Avoiding divergence on the island, by making NI a special case and keeping it within EU regulations, in an effort to avoid the necessity for a physical border (on the island), will create a technical border (between NI and the rest of the UK) and that is unacceptable to Unionists (and also contravenes the GFA because it means closer ties to Eire, a distancing from the UK, for NI without a democratic mandate from the people of NI, as required under that agreement). 


Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on December 06, 2018, 07:56:22 AM
Quote
How do we vote the EU out?

Idiotic question, like How do we vote the house of commons out?

The EU is the framework not the operators, so has democratic levers, eg.

- European elections
- Petition to the European Commission / https://ec.europa.eu/info/about-european-commission/get-involved/petition-eu_en

This one has proved very popular and I would urge people to sign it https://eci.ec.europa.eu/002/public/#/initiative

You just don't like them.

Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on December 06, 2018, 08:03:07 AM
And, you know, by voting for our national governments.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 06, 2018, 08:10:41 AM
Idiotic question, like How do we vote the house of commons out?

The EU is the framework not the operators, so has democratic levers, eg.



I obviously don't need to explain to you that the 'democracy' part of the EU doesn't work like the house of commons, in our parliament the people we vote for are the ones that come up with the legislation based on the manifestos they stand on, thats not how it works with the EU's pseudo-parliament (with its very low levels of voter engagement), which is a rubber stamping body for legislation coming from the EU commission.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: greencalx on December 06, 2018, 08:11:44 AM
How do we vote Plan A+ out when it’s inevitably instigated by the Tories post-Brexit?

Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 06, 2018, 08:13:56 AM
How do we vote Plan A+ out when it’s inevitably instigated by the Tories post-Brexit?


We have what is currently a very effective opposition - who are good at holding this government to account, then we vote them out.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on December 06, 2018, 08:16:30 AM
Universal Credit

Social care

Wealth taxation

'Holding to account'

'Very effective opposition'

(That goes for S?S!'s crowing in a different post. Defeating the government over the release of a few sides of A4 that 1) there was no possible good reason for withholding from Parliament and 2) told us nothing new or interesting isn't the same as being an effective opposition.)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 06, 2018, 08:18:06 AM
I don’t remember being given the opportunity to vote for Richard Branson but he nevertheless seems to hold considerable influence over what happens to the NHS.

Great British Democracy, though.  Its perfection is only thwarted by the EU.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: katzenjammer on December 06, 2018, 08:24:10 AM


Buggytitbo I see yet again showing his biggest problem with the EU is that he doesn’t understand what it is, or how it works.

(https://66.media.tumblr.com/f5f70afb15f7f4689b1dc1ad039f4143/tumblr_o8yu3dclky1r6n4xvo1_1280.jpg)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 06, 2018, 08:24:54 AM
Universal Credit

Social care

Wealth taxation

'Holding to account'

'Very effective opposition'


And the EU has helped with that in what way exactly? In actual fact tory austerity is entirely consistent with the EU's own austerity programmes, except not quite as ruthless.


Its quite clear the tories years of austerity are coming to and end and it'll be because of national politics in the UK not the EU.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 06, 2018, 08:30:00 AM
Its quite clear the tories years of austerity are coming to and end and it'll be because of national politics in the UK not the EU.

EU in “leaves Britain to its own devices” shock!!
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on December 06, 2018, 08:37:49 AM
Maintaining the ESIF for a start. Plaster on an amputation, of course.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: greencalx on December 06, 2018, 09:45:56 AM

We have what is currently a very effective opposition - who are good at holding this government to account, then we vote them out.

Yep, and EU member states have a veto.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 06, 2018, 09:57:35 AM
Yep, and EU member states have a veto.

Not true a lot of times, where a simple majority is enough, and of course the UK is on the losing side of those instances more than any other EU country. More fundamentally, the them and us part of this is simply an illusion - the political elites in the UK and the EU are of the exact same cloth, they see the world in the same way and want the same outcomes. The EU has become a mechanism for this political class to get on with moulding the world in their own interests without having to bother with pesky stuff like their electorate. Leaving the EU would be a good way of clipping the wings of our own politicians - the large majority of which are totally onboard with the corporate, technocratic rule the EU is designed for.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: SpiderChrist on December 06, 2018, 10:00:10 AM
You can always rely on Murdoch's chums for a measured, non-antagonistic, non-inflammatory contribution: https://twitter.com/flying_rodent/status/1070613971743502336 (https://twitter.com/flying_rodent/status/1070613971743502336)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Norton Canes on December 06, 2018, 10:09:34 AM
"heartbreakingly murdered"
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: SpiderChrist on December 06, 2018, 10:11:07 AM
It's like reading one of Biggy's posts.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Buelligan on December 06, 2018, 10:19:23 AM
And coming from Liam Fox, someone about as far from an honest public servant as one could be without ending up in clink.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 06, 2018, 10:19:48 AM

Buggytitbo I see yet again showing his biggest problem with the EU is that he doesn’t understand what it is, or how it works.

(https://66.media.tumblr.com/f5f70afb15f7f4689b1dc1ad039f4143/tumblr_o8yu3dclky1r6n4xvo1_1280.jpg)


Nice bit of EU propaganda, yet only 1 in 10 people even know who their MEP, an engagement problem that is inherent in having such a distant, detached body working in an opaque way on things most voters don't understand or care about. These MEPs of course can't initiate legislation themselves, they're not a government, instead acting as a rubber stamping body for the actual EU government - the unelected commission that largely operates secretly in an unobserved space under the influence of a vast edifice of corporate lobbyists and totally free of public accountability.

If the EU is a democracy, its literally the shittest, most dysfunctional one you could possibly dream up.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Buelligan on December 06, 2018, 10:21:56 AM
According to you, Nigel Farage, Steve Bannon, that old-age cretin that runs Wetherspoons, Murdoch, BoJo and the People's Champion, Jacob Reesmug.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 06, 2018, 10:33:49 AM

Nice bit of EU propaganda, yet only 1 in 10 people even know who their MEP, an engagement problem that is inherent in having such a distant, detached body working in an opaque way on things most voters don't understand or care about. These MEPs of course can't initiate legislation themselves, they're not a government, instead acting as a rubber stamping body for the actual EU government - the unelected commission that largely operates secretly in an unobserved space under the influence of a vast edifice of corporate lobbyists and totally free of public accountability.


It's not the EU's fault that people can't be arsed to engage with their MEPs. I wonder how many people know who their MP is? And I think your assessment of the role of MEPs and the commission isn't accurate (from what people who've worked for decades within the UK government and within the EU have told me).
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 06, 2018, 10:44:19 AM
Don't blame the voters, it's a structural fault of having a pseudo-parliament with pseudo MPs, in another country representing a vast continent of completely disparate nations - people you've never heard of talking about opaque things that seem very distant from your life, its a fig leaf by design. Whereas your local MP, you can contact them about something, then see them stand up in parliament and ask questions about your local bus service, or hospital, or jobs or whatever - things people experience directly and care about. And because there's a direct line of responsibility, theres a direct line of accountability. Nobody argues we have a perfect system, but its recognisably a functioning democracy where the EU isnt.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on December 06, 2018, 10:51:45 AM
Don't blame the voters, it's a structural fault of having a pseudo-parliament with pseudo MPs, in another country representing a vast continent of completely disparate nations - people you've never heard of talking about opaque things that seem very distant from your life, its a fig leaf by design. Whereas your local MP, you can contact them about something, then see them stand up in parliament and ask questions about your local bus service, or hospital, or jobs or whatever - things people experience directly and care about. And because there's a direct line of responsibility, theres a direct line of accountability. Nobody argues we have a perfect system, but its recognisably a functioning democracy where the EU isnt.

I'll blame the voters when they keep electing UKIP MEPs who don't bother to even turn up beyond the absolute bare minimum to secure their £75k a year salary, expenses and pensions.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 06, 2018, 10:58:44 AM
Don't blame the voters, it's a structural fault of having a pseudo-parliament with pseudo MPs, in another country representing a vast continent of completely disparate nations - people you've never heard of talking about opaque things that seem very distant from your life, its a fig leaf by design. Whereas your local MP, you can contact them about something, then see them stand up in parliament and ask questions about your local bus service, or hospital, or jobs or whatever - things people experience directly and care about. And because there's a direct line of responsibility, theres a direct line of accountability. Nobody argues we have a perfect system, but its recognisably a functioning democracy where the EU isnt.

It seems a bit odd to complain that MEPs aren't concerned with bus routes - they don't need to be, because we have local MPs. If by being in the EU we weren't allowed local MPs I'd take your point.

And if you don't feel well served by your MEP, vote them out. How is our system, with it's completely unelected second chamber, directly ruling on things that directly affect our lives, a 'functioning democracy'? If Brexit leads to the abolition of the Lords then that'd be one positive I suppose.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: mothman on December 06, 2018, 11:02:45 AM
It's like reading one of Biggy's posts.

Good, not just me then.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: greencalx on December 06, 2018, 11:03:50 AM
Not true a lot of times, where a simple majority is enough

More of a veto than Corbyn has over May, though, which was the analogy you were drawing.

Quote
and of course the UK is on the losing side of those instances more than any other EU country.

Maybe, but weren't we on the 'losing' side a very small actual number of times. So what?

Whoops, we seem to be rerunning the referendum arguments again (which is not the purpose of this thread), so let's draw a line.


Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 06, 2018, 11:04:16 AM
It seems a bit odd to complain that MEPs aren't concerned with bus routes - they don't need to be, because we have local MPs. If by being in the EU we weren't allowed local MPs I'd take your point.

And if you don't feel well served by your MEP, vote them out. How is our system, with it's completely unelected second chamber, directly ruling on things that directly affect our lives, a 'functioning democracy'? If Brexit leads to the abolition of the Lords then that'd be one positive I suppose.


What the specific issue is is not the point. The point is they serve no useful purpose to most voters.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 06, 2018, 11:05:29 AM
Well that's a matter of opinion I suppose - depending on what you think is useful.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 06, 2018, 11:12:02 AM
Well that's a matter of opinion I suppose - depending on what you think is useful.


A matter of opinion of the vast majority of voters it seems.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 06, 2018, 11:17:50 AM
I think he’s arguing that only local things matter to most people?  Hard to tell.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: mothman on December 06, 2018, 11:18:11 AM

A matter of opinion of the vast majority of voters it seems.

So you’re concerned with the “vast” amount of voters who don’t bother to vote for MEPs, but not the 60-70% of the eligible electorate who didn’t vote for Holy Brexit?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Neville Chamberlain on December 06, 2018, 11:21:53 AM
It's perfectly possible to find out who your MEP is and what they do, if you're unsure.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: mothman on December 06, 2018, 11:24:14 AM
It's perfectly possible to find out who your MEP is and what they do, if you're unsure.

Fake news! Everyone knows Eurocrats are brainless clones telepathically controlled by Soros!
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 06, 2018, 11:27:10 AM
It's perfectly possible to find out who your MEP is and what they do, if you're unsure.


For what purpose though?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 06, 2018, 11:28:43 AM
So you’re concerned with the “vast” amount of voters who don’t bother to vote for MEPs, but not the 60-70% of the eligible electorate who didn’t vote for Holy Brexit?


You're confusing engagement with choice.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: mothman on December 06, 2018, 11:35:13 AM
Not really. Or it’s irrelevant if I am. Look at it the other way: MEPs were democratically elected. Yet you obviously hold their democratic mandate in far lower regard than you do the vote for Holy Brexit.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on December 06, 2018, 11:37:54 AM
Don't blame the voters, it's a structural fault of having a pseudo-parliament with pseudo MPs, in another country representing a vast continent of completely disparate nations - people you've never heard of talking about opaque things that seem very distant from your life, its a fig leaf by design.
Are we talking about the UK or the EU?

Quote
Whereas your local MP, you can contact them about something, then see them stand up in parliament and ask questions about your local bus service, or hospital


What has my MP got to do with my local bus service or hospital? (Arguably quite a lot, because of the nature of the Westminster administration - but they wouldn't ask questions about either in the HoC.)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 06, 2018, 11:43:25 AM
Not really. Or it’s irrelevant if I am. Look at it the other way: MEPs were democratically elected. Yet you obviously hold their democratic mandate in far lower regard than you do the vote for Holy Brexit.

By half the turnout of a normal election, with rock bottom levels of engagement. And a mandate to do what? They serve no useful purpose. It doesn't make the thing they're a part of a functional democracy, just like people voting in a tv talent shows doesn't make them a democracy either.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 06, 2018, 11:50:31 AM
Part of what Biggy says is fair and the reason that Labour wanted to remain and reform.

Before he starts, I am not getting into an argument on whether it's possible to reform the EU.


Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on December 06, 2018, 11:52:25 AM
...a mandate to do what?

That's a question you should definitely be asking, but not here.

I used to work with a web dev who had this attitude, which can be summed up as "If I can't understand what it's for, it's unimportant". He deleted a whole load of code and severed the link to the invoicing subsystem. Because we didn't have any tests covering it (deleted because I don't understand etc...) and because it failed silently (the error reporting was, idiotically, in the same module as the sender) no-one noticed until the next month when no-one paid their invoices because they hadn't received them. The resulting cash-flow crisis almost brought the company down.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 06, 2018, 12:08:40 PM
Thats not a very good analogy because voters aren't employed to vote, the system is meant to exist in a way that meaningfully represents them, and this one doesn't - hence the lack of engagement. Its not the voters fault.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on December 06, 2018, 12:10:51 PM
I'm not talking about the voters. I'm talking about you. If you're going to start pontificating on the uselessness of MEPs, shouldn't you already know what it is they do?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on December 06, 2018, 12:17:04 PM
In fairness, he doesn't seem to know what MPs are responsible for across the UK either.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 06, 2018, 12:18:01 PM
The lack of engagement with the EU and the lack of meaningful purpose of MEPs to most voters is an objective fact, it's nothing to do with me.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 06, 2018, 12:26:07 PM
Quote
Ken Clarke, the Conservative former chancellor, intervenes. Does he accept that remaining in the EEA would preserve the economic benefits of EU membership, if not the political benefits?

Hammond accepts that point. But he says there are two main problems with this proposal. First, the UK would have to accept free movement. And, second, the financial services industry would have to comply with a lot of fast-changing EU regulations over which it would have no control.

HMMMMM CAN'T HAVE THE FINANCIAL SERVICES INDUSTRY HAVING TO COMPLY WITH REGULATIONS CAN WE HMMMMMMMMM
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on December 06, 2018, 12:34:40 PM
HMMMMM CAN'T HAVE THE FINANCIAL SERVICES INDUSTRY HAVING TO COMPLY WITH REGULATIONS CAN WE HMMMMMMMMM

If only there was a way we could have some control over those regulations. If only.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on December 06, 2018, 12:36:01 PM
...it's nothing to do with me.

Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 06, 2018, 12:39:32 PM
If only there was a way we could have some control over those regulations. If only.

Not having the City of London dictate EU policy on financial regulation would be a very positive step.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 06, 2018, 12:49:47 PM
The whole thing is a fake argument anyway as financial markets are a global thing, and London is the biggest financial market in the world - any regulation would have to be agreed with it and the other major centres like New York, Hong Kong and Tokyo. The European factor is of significantly less importance.

A similar fake argument was made the other day about the EU potnetially witholding security and intelligence information from us, overlooking the fact that the UK is the only EU member thats a part of 5 eyes (France applied and were turned down), far and away the worlds most important intelligence gathering and sharing system - so any 'witholding' would more likely be the other way.



Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 06, 2018, 12:54:53 PM
Quote
Responding to Hammond, Labour's shadow chancellor John McDonnell says: "It is increasingly obvious the prime minister's deal is neither politically nor economically acceptable, nor is it capable of bringing this House or the country together."

What is John? You haven't got anything that would do that either have you?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 06, 2018, 12:57:09 PM
For what purpose though?

To do what you are erroneously claiming is impossible.  It’s either a big deal or it isn’t - you choose.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 06, 2018, 12:59:29 PM
What is John? You haven't got anything that would do that either have you?

Hang on your entire argument until this point has been that we should force through Brexit immediately and hope that a Labour government can make something good of what remains in a few years.

What’s your argument now?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 06, 2018, 01:01:47 PM
I'm asking what John McDonnell's position is that will bring the country and the house together, respect brexit but also retain all the perceived benefits of the EU. Do you know?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 06, 2018, 01:02:55 PM
I'm asking what John McDonnell's position is that will bring the country and the house together, respect brexit but also retain all the perceived benefits of the EU. Do you know?

Nope so with your “vote Labour for a good Brexit lololol” smirk wiped off your face, what is left?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 06, 2018, 01:07:10 PM
I think we should leave the EU and have a labour government, but whatever, the party appear to have settled on a non existent position, a position that can't ever exist - which is basically lying to the public isnt it?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Captain Z on December 06, 2018, 01:09:48 PM
What is John? You haven't got anything that would do that either have you?

It's not his, or anyone else from opposition parties, place to have an alternative. The Conservatives chose to have the referendum, and the responsibility for enacting the result now belongs to the governing parties alone.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 06, 2018, 01:14:39 PM
It's not his, or anyone else from opposition parties, place to have an alternative.

I don't think thats true, but they have ruled out all possible alternatives leaving them no position to adopt even if they had one havent they?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Pseudopath on December 06, 2018, 01:24:36 PM
Whereas your local MEP, you can contact them about something (http://www.europarl.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/en/your-meps/uk_meps.html), then see them stand up in parliament (https://multimedia.europarl.europa.eu/en/broadcast) and ask questions about consumer rights, product safety, animal welfare, workers' rights, equal pay legislation, enhanced social welfare, funding for overseas study and work placements, environmental protections, farming subsidies or whatever - things people experience directly and care about.

Fixed that for you. As you're always banging on about how the media manipulates the public, you might be interested to learn that many European countries actually have TV channels dedicated to broadcasting European parliament proceedings. Of course, nobody in their right mind actually watches them, but having something similar in the UK over the past couple of decades would certainly have put paid to the constantly-parroted notion that the EU is an impenetrable web of bureaucracy wilfully operating behind closed doors.

Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 06, 2018, 01:27:35 PM
What is John? You haven't got anything that would do that either have you?

Quote
Fuck all that we've got to get on with these
Gotta compete with the wily Japanese
There's too many home fires burning
And not enough trees
So fuck all that
We've go to get on with these
Can't stop!
Lose job!
Mind gone!
Silicon!
What bomb?
Get away!
Pay day!
Make hay!
Break down!
Need fix.
Big six.
Clickity click.
Hold on!
Oh no,
Bring bingo!
Make 'em laugh
Make 'em cry
Make 'em dance in the aisles
Make 'em pay
Make 'em stay
Make 'em feel okay
Not nah John
We've got to get on with the film show
Hollywood waits at the end of the rainbow
Who cares what it's about
As long as the kids go?
Not now John we've
Got to get on with the show
Hang on John I've got to get on with this
I don't know what it is
But it fits on here like
Come at the end of the shift
We'll go and get pissed
Not now John
I've got to get on with this
Hold on John
I think there's something good on
I used to read books but
It could be the news
Or some other amusement
It could be reusable shows
Fuck all that we've got to get on with these
Got to compete with the wily Japanese
No need to worry about the Vietnamese
Got to bring the Russian Bear to his knees
Well, maybe not the Russian Bear
Maybe the Swedes
We showed Argentina
Now let's go and show these
Make us feel tough
And wouldn't Maggie be pleased?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Fambo Number Mive on December 06, 2018, 01:28:52 PM
Theresa May has been answering questions on the Brexit deal on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/notes/theresa-may/answering-your-questions-on-the-brexit-deal/2525178204165604/
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 06, 2018, 01:31:16 PM
Yours,

Confused of Taunton
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on December 06, 2018, 01:33:51 PM
Biggy's pissed off with the Labours because they're not going to push his hard Brexit. I mean, you could see this coming a mile off.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Captain Z on December 06, 2018, 01:36:25 PM
First piece of text on that link:

Quote
Q If Parliament does not pass this, how will we leave the EU on March 29, 2019?
Mr & Mrs Bond, Taunton, Somerset


A Mr and Mrs Bond, I am being absolutely clear to my colleagues in Parliament that they should back my deal to make sure we leave the EU in March 2019... (continues to not answer the question)

Jesus wept.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 06, 2018, 01:41:16 PM
Mr and Mrs Bond are fictional middle class cunts...of Taunton.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Fambo Number Mive on December 06, 2018, 01:45:23 PM
Times trying to push the idea of a government of national unity: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dttw7oqWoAAdPr0.jpg:large
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 06, 2018, 01:51:18 PM
Fixed that for you. As you're always banging on about how the media manipulates the public, you might be interested to learn that many European countries actually have TV channels dedicated to broadcasting European parliament proceedings. Of course, nobody in their right mind actually watches them, but having something similar in the UK over the past couple of decades would certainly have put paid to the constantly-parroted notion that the EU is an impenetrable web of bureaucracy wilfully operating behind closed doors.

Setting aside your weird incomprehension that the European parliament means fuck all to the average voter in the UK, and the relationship with their MEP who they don't even know is non existent because its so remote and obscure, and that the MEP they have no connection to couldn't do anything about their issue if they wanted to, it seems a self evident fact that people don't want two MPs and two different parliaments (especially supranational ones), one is more than enough. It's a broken system by design because the EU isn't meant to be a democracy, by design. if it wasn't broken why did so many people vote to leave? Voter blaming isnt a good look.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on December 06, 2018, 01:54:40 PM
Times trying to push the idea of a government of national unity: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dttw7oqWoAAdPr0.jpg:large

Centrists of the world unite and take over


Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on December 06, 2018, 01:57:03 PM
I think we should leave the EU and have a labour government, but whatever, the party appear to have settled on a non existent position, a position that can't ever exist - which is basically lying to the public isnt it?

They are keeping their powder dry for the eventual situation they're landed in so as to avoid negative public backlash. So in a sense yes, but in reality helping move closer to the Labour government you claim to want.

By the time this deal is voted down and the resulting Tory implosion occurs no-one will care that Labour were non-committal a few months previously. They will just listen to the solution being presented at that point in time, then make their judgement.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on December 06, 2018, 02:34:03 PM
They are keeping their powder dry for the eventual situation they're landed in so as to avoid negative public backlash. So in a sense yes, but in reality helping move closer to the Labour government you claim to want.

By the time this deal is voted down and the resulting Tory implosion occurs no-one will care that Labour were non-committal a few months previously. They will just listen to the solution being presented at that point in time, then make their judgement.

Labour's only hope of getting out of this unscathed is to have Brexit having already happened before they come to power. If there is, somehow, an election before exit day, they'll have an absolute nightmare trying to navigate through this. They've made too many promises they won't be able to keep.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Darles Chickens on December 06, 2018, 02:38:32 PM
Not sure why I'm bothering to respond to Biggy, but anyway I would've thought the role of an MEP was fairly obvious.  The EU is the biggest entity which pertains directly to us, and has very high-level concerns which are indeed beyond the interest of many ordinary people, but which are nonetheless necessary when operating as a single frictionless trading bloc which needs to maintain shared rules and regulations.  But the fact that we have elected representation in it at all is a good thing.  If we were to become WTO mavericks and seek out some sell-out trade deal with the USA, through whom would people be able to voice their concerns or opinions as to how rules and regulations were made?  No one, that's who.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biniput on December 06, 2018, 02:45:39 PM
Not having the City of London dictate EU policy on financial regulation would be a very positive step.

The immensely corrupt German financial sector mostly calls the shots in the EU hence the shitty nature of the Euro, a currency with no real central bank.

The whole thing is a fake argument anyway as financial markets are a global thing, and London is the biggest financial market in the world - any regulation would have to be agreed with it and the other major centres like New York, Hong Kong and Tokyo. The European factor is of significantly less importance.

Where on earth did you get that from? There needs to be zero agreement on anything between such financial centres.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Pseudopath on December 06, 2018, 04:37:54 PM
The immensely corrupt German financial sector mostly calls the shots in the EU hence the shitty nature of the Euro, a currency with no real central bank.

I know...it's mad, isn't it? A currency with over €1.2 trillion in circulation and used by 19 first-world countries has no central supervisory authority to define monetary policy, maintain price stability or manage foreign currency reserves. Crazy.

Still...if there was such an organisation, I'd definitely call it the European Central Bank (https://www.ecb.europa.eu/ecb/html/index.en.html).
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on December 06, 2018, 06:02:07 PM
it seems a self evident fact that people don't want two MPs and two different parliaments (especially supranational ones), one is more than enough.
Again, are we talking about the UK or the EU?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: jobotic on December 06, 2018, 06:05:01 PM
Setting aside your weird incomprehension that the European parliament means fuck all to the average voter in the UK, and the relationship with their MEP who they don't even know is non existent because its so remote and obscure, and that the MEP they have no connection to couldn't do anything about their issue if they wanted to, it seems a self evident fact that people don't want two MPs and two different parliaments (especially supranational ones), one is more than enough. It's a broken system by design because the EU isn't meant to be a democracy, by design. if it wasn't broken why did so many people vote to leave? Voter blaming isnt a good look.

Just because you say something in your "of course" way, does t make it true. An election that not many people vote in is still an election.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on December 06, 2018, 06:20:05 PM
Not sure why I'm bothering to respond to Biggy, but anyway I would've thought the role of an MEP was fairly obvious.  The EU is the biggest entity which pertains directly to us, and has very high-level concerns which are indeed beyond the interest of many ordinary people, but which are nonetheless necessary when operating as a single frictionless trading bloc which needs to maintain shared rules and regulations.  But the fact that we have elected representation in it at all is a good thing.  If we were to become WTO mavericks and seek out some sell-out trade deal with the USA, through whom would people be able to voice their concerns or opinions as to how rules and regulations were made?  No one, that's who.

Precisely.

Division and dilution of democracy is inevitable if you want to live in a democratic area, and the wider the area the more division and dilution occurs and the less your power is.

This lessening of power is offset by a series of benefits on a macro scale that are akin to a village market being an improvement on individual agrarian subsistence. It is collectivism and co-operation, but even better than that, between nations that were former enemies.

The arguments as to why the EU is bad largely also apply to the UK Government, and county councils and city councils. It's largely the same argument.

This is why I am in favour of remaining and reforming much as I am in favour of a UK Government remaining and reforming, county councils remaining and reforming and local/city councils remaining and reforming.

Democracy is shagged because each step of the democratic ladder needs reforming, but not burning down.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 06, 2018, 06:20:16 PM
It's a broken system by design because the EU isn't meant to be a democracy, by design. if it wasn't broken why did so many people vote to leave? Voter blaming isnt a good look.

So you think that the public always vote for the best option.  Always.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: canadagoose on December 06, 2018, 06:44:48 PM
So you think that the public always vote for the best option.  Always.
The thought that the majority of the public is always right... Must be nice to be able to believe that! It's a bit of a, dare I say it, privilege.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 06, 2018, 07:10:04 PM
Blaming voters because they don't think much of your silly parliament, or simply didn't vote the way you like, is a bit petulant and dare I say it, anti-democratic isn't it?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: canadagoose on December 06, 2018, 07:15:21 PM
Blaming voters because they don't think much of your silly parliament, or simply didn't vote the way you like, is a bit petulant and dare I say it, anti-democratic isn't it?
Anti-democratic till I die 🤘
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 06, 2018, 07:23:29 PM
So you think that the public always vote for the best option.  Always.
Do you think should just disregard any democratic votes we don't like then?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on December 06, 2018, 07:24:25 PM
Wish we could ban "at a record level" in the Commons. (Well, unless a proper denominator and inflation-adjustment is specified, perhaps. Maybe.)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: canadagoose on December 06, 2018, 07:25:52 PM
Wish we could ban "at a record level" in the Commons. (Well, unless a proper denominator and inflation-adjustment is specified, perhaps. Maybe.)
Can we ban "I want to be very clear" and any variations of it while we're at it? Shite phrase.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Fambo Number Mive on December 06, 2018, 07:42:07 PM
ITV debate not happening.

I would like to see a leaders TV debate on Brexit, I think it is a shame all we have is the Channel 4 debate.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 06, 2018, 07:50:56 PM
Have we mentioned Corbyn making a commitment to a second referendum if May blocks an election? Not sure what he'd campaign for though, and nor is he I think.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biniput on December 06, 2018, 08:22:38 PM
I know...it's mad, isn't it? A currency with over €1.2 trillion in circulation and used by 19 first-world countries has no central supervisory authority to define monetary policy, maintain price stability or manage foreign currency reserves. Crazy.

Still...if there was such an organisation, I'd definitely call it the European Central Bank (https://www.ecb.europa.eu/ecb/html/index.en.html).

Oh dear yet another one who can't keep the superior tone down when getting things half right. The central bank of the Eu is like no other on earth. The worst of it is that there is zero common debt issuance like all other currencies which means zero problems are shared. Now this is a massive problem as it hamstrings governments from helping themselvs when things go wrong as they can't just issue bonds etc in a currency from a local central bank. This causes insane havoc as the EU central bank never intervenes even though every country with its own currency in history has done this. So we have what has been described as a currency that is little more than a glorified exchange rate mechanism. There are many other problems this causes as there is no way to deal with balance of payment transfers between parts of the EU and who the fuck would want that. We have Germany to thank for that as they have always had a policy of trade surplus which has its origin in the 1930s and maybe before. They have designed the Euro to make money of the countries they throw money at and it is a disgrace as they can make shit investments and take zero responsibility for it all. The EU central bank has only a fraction of the powers it should have and hence why most economists berate it and the EU for almost not existing.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 06, 2018, 08:39:04 PM
Do you think should just disregard any democratic votes we don't like then?

Oops you’re being disingenuous there.  Try again.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 06, 2018, 08:41:50 PM
.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 06, 2018, 10:36:57 PM
Been offline due to the massive O2 fuckup earlier, so just saw this on the Guardian live feed about a meeting between May and some of her top ministers earlier. Sky’s Beth Rigby tweeted-

Quote
NEW: Source tells me cabinet agreed they can’t lose a vote by 200, but certainly no agreement on pulling the vote. Told a bit of general dismay that PM didn’t fully put her cards on the table (but she never does)

So this is the best they can hope for now - not losing by more than 200.

They’ve got to pull this vote. It surely is too horrific for May and the Tories to go on.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: finnquark on December 06, 2018, 10:44:25 PM
It's very difficult for them to pull the vote now, for various reasons. I was reading an article on Conservative Home just now about the Tory Whips being shit at their jobs. That absurd clip of Julian Smith trying to persuade a swivel eyed fanatic on ITV was absolutely ridiculous.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Mr_Simnock on December 06, 2018, 10:49:55 PM
Quote
They’ve got to pull this vote. It surely is too horrific for May and the Tories to go on.   

every single member of CaB should be willing/praying for this to go ahead, it's going to be fucking marvelous watching the ship sink.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Funcrusher on December 06, 2018, 11:08:08 PM

They’ve got to pull this vote. It surely is too horrific for May and the Tories to go on.

Government announces an official two week period of state mourning following the death of Pete Shelley, requiring a postponement of the vote.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: buzby on December 06, 2018, 11:32:56 PM
Government announces an official two week period of state mourning following the death of Pete Shelley, requiring a postponement of the vote.
Phil The Greek maybe?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 07, 2018, 12:21:46 AM
Phil The Greek maybe?

Extremely likely.  Apparently even the Cunt of Death calls him "Big Guns Funeral" at quiet moments.  This occasion could be just the one.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on December 07, 2018, 06:31:22 AM
Phil The Greek maybe?

Revolver and a bottle of whisky. He knows what to do.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: katzenjammer on December 07, 2018, 07:18:18 AM
Do you think should just disregard any democratic votes we don't like then?

No. Just the ones where campaigns on the winning side broke the law, voters have based their decision on hundreds of myths and lies and millions of people most affected by the decision were denied a say.  Or perhaps you think we should ignore all of that when we like the result?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 07, 2018, 07:28:55 AM
No. Just the ones where campaigns on the winning side broke the law, voters have based their decision on hundreds of myths and lies and millions of people most affected by the decision were denied a say.  Or perhaps you think we should ignore all of that when we like the result?


So you think we should disregard the remain votes too then? Broke law - check, hundreds of myths and lies - check, millions of people denied a say - check. And your side had the worlds major power structures and elites engaging in a giant psychologic operation to terrify us into voting remain didnt it, but let's not mention that.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on December 07, 2018, 07:32:07 AM
Why didn't any of these major power structures speak up for the EU ever prior to the referendum?
Why are the establishment party in the UK the most anti-EU?
Why were so many anti-EU campaigners very wealthy male entrepreneurs?

Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: katzenjammer on December 07, 2018, 07:45:23 AM

 hundreds of myths and lies - check

That’s bollocks, unless you can do better than your fake bus.

I’m fine with voiding the whole thing.  Sounds like you’d agree if it weren’t for the fact that you got the result you wanted.

Seriously, if the situation were reversed, if the vote had been a narrow one to stay in the EU and it had been the remain campaigns that had behaved as appallingly as leave did I would support another referendum. 
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on December 07, 2018, 07:48:07 AM

So you think we should disregard the remain votes too then? Broke law - check, hundreds of myths and lies - check, millions of people denied a say - check. And your side had the worlds major power structures and elites engaging in a giant psychologic operation to terrify us into voting remain didnt it, but let's not mention that.

So, given that, you think the referendum should be held again then?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 07, 2018, 08:13:49 AM

Why didn't any of these major power structures speak up for the EU ever prior to the referendum
Because the EU just was, it was serving them perfectly fine as it was. It was only when it was under this existential threat that they needed to wield the sword.

Why are the establishment party in the UK the most anti-EU?
They're not. There's a nationalist wing of the party is, but the party overall is pro EU, cos of business. The tories are the party of bosses and face facts, company bosses and bankers have taken total control of this process now, that much has been made clearer than ever the last few weeks. They're in charge, not us.


Quote
Why were so many anti-EU campaigners very wealthy male entrepreneurs?
This is a merry-go-round now isnt it? The vast majority of corporate, financial and political power is pro EU because the EU is run for them. A small minority of outliers aren't. A small minority you'll exaggerate untill the end of time as if they're representative, because the reality is you're actually united on the same side of the fence as almost all the most active, oppressive holders of global power there is, and thats not a very comfortable place to be so wah Arron Banks.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 07, 2018, 08:14:46 AM
Seriously, if the situation were reversed, if the vote had been a narrow one to stay in the EU and it had been the remain campaigns that had behaved as appallingly as leave did I would support another referendum.


(http://users.content.ytmnd.com/f/9/7/f970a3a081f2724a1a58a627e7f281cd.jpg)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Konki on December 07, 2018, 08:17:56 AM
Can someone remind me how you block someone? Ta.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 07, 2018, 08:21:38 AM
So, given that, you think the referendum should be held again then?


Seems irrelevent now as they have decided we're remaining. If we end up going through the ritual of another referendum it will be formulated so remain win. It's a fait accompli now.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 07, 2018, 08:23:46 AM
At least confine this shit to the Brexit thread. This one is for the final act of ritual humiliation for May before she is sacrificed to the gods of business on the winter solstice.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 07, 2018, 08:27:33 AM
At least confine this shit to the Brexit thread. This one is for the final act of ritual humiliation for May before she is sacrificed to the gods of business on the winter solstice.


There is this as a consolation admittedly.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on December 07, 2018, 08:30:34 AM

Seems irrelevent now as they have decided we're remaining. If we end up going through the ritual of another referendum it will be formulated so remain win. It's a fait accompli now.

Either you do think there should be another referendum or you don't.
Surely, in the interests of maintaining the purity of democracy, the "fact" that both campaigns lied and cheated should make the first referendum null and void. Or isn't democracy worth that much to you?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: katzenjammer on December 07, 2018, 08:31:21 AM

(http://users.content.ytmnd.com/f/9/7/f970a3a081f2724a1a58a627e7f281cd.jpg)

Oh you don’t like that do you? It’s uncomfortable for you to realise your level of integrity is comparatively low so you choose to disbelieve it instead.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on December 07, 2018, 08:33:38 AM
At least confine this shit to the Brexit thread. This one is for the final act of ritual humiliation for May before she is sacrificed to the gods of business on the winter solstice.

Does anyone in the Tory party actually want to replace her, at this point?

I appreciate that the DUP might still be her undoing for other reasons.

Wish SF would cross their fingers or put on funny 'accents' (in the manner of Yau Wai Ching) for the pledge and take their seats for a laugh.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on December 07, 2018, 08:37:12 AM
Does anyone in the Tory party actually want to replace her, at this point?

The fact that she's still there suggests a big no.
Why would anyone with an interest of becoming a Tory PM want to do so at the moment? That probably includes her.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 07, 2018, 08:37:47 AM
I don't think you can underestimate the ego and ambition of politicians. Someone will do it.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: solidified gruel merchant on December 07, 2018, 08:37:55 AM
So, given that, you think the referendum should be held again then?

I have to say, if all you guys had put as much time and effort into campaigning for remain as you do trying to change Forum User:Biggytitbo’s mind, well you’d still have lost but maybe at least you’d feel a bit better about yourselves?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on December 07, 2018, 08:39:48 AM
I don't think you can underestimate the ego and ambition of politicians
The suggestion is that people wouldn't want the position right now precisely because of their ego and ambition.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 07, 2018, 08:41:28 AM
Either you do think there should be another referendum or you don't.
Surely, in the interests of maintaining the purity of democracy, the "fact" that both campaigns lied and cheated should make the first referendum null and void. Or isn't democracy worth that much to you?


I'd probably support one if it was in the formats we discussed before, like multipart or some form of AV.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 07, 2018, 10:09:41 AM
I don't think you can underestimate the ego and ambition of politicians. Someone will do it.

(https://www.sickchirpse.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Boris-Johnson-1.jpg)

The Torygraph was reporting yesterday that a ‘Stop Boris’ campaign was already forming.

The hope seemed to be that May would complete Brexit then she could be ditched, but she has colossally fucked it all up to the point she might have to go now.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Fambo Number Mive on December 07, 2018, 10:16:52 AM
I have to say, if all you guys had put as much time and effort into campaigning for remain as you do trying to change Forum User:Biggytitbo’s mind, well you’d still have lost but maybe at least you’d feel a bit better about yourselves?

How do you know people didn't do both?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 07, 2018, 11:05:15 AM
I have to say, if all you guys had put as much time and effort into campaigning for remain as you do trying to change Forum User:Biggytitbo’s mind, well you’d still have lost but maybe at least you’d feel a bit better about yourselves?

In a campaign about anything, it is important to know what lies your opponents are spreading so that you can balance them out.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 07, 2018, 11:32:17 AM
In a campaign about anything, it is important to know what lies your opponents are spreading so that you can balance them out.

Exactly!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DsSofBYWwAEuZP8.jpg)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 07, 2018, 12:30:29 PM
Exactly!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DsSofBYWwAEuZP8.jpg)

I saw that in a skip.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 07, 2018, 12:45:17 PM
The Guardian is quoting The Telegraph (who have long since had the knives out for May) on the ministerial meeting that happened yesterday.

Quote
The prime minister was confronted in Downing Street by Amber Rudd and other senior ministers who demanded to know what she intends to do to salvage the vote, and her Brexit deal with it.

During a crisis meeting in Downing Street called by Mrs May they offered her four options - including a postponement of the vote - but came away exasperated when she refused to commit to any of them.

At one point a frustrated Ms Rudd asked her: “What do you want to do, prime minister?” only to receive a “non-committal” reply.

May is absolutely paralysed, the few things tried this week have been nothing more than shifting the deckchairs a few inches while the ship is going down.

She really doesn’t have a Plan B.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: kittens on December 07, 2018, 01:07:13 PM
when does this big parliament vote happen please.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 07, 2018, 01:09:25 PM
Tuesday, or maybe never if everything goes really tits up.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 07, 2018, 01:12:27 PM
The tits are already up, its just a matter of whether May is masochist enough to allow parliament to savagely tweak the nipples.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 07, 2018, 01:23:38 PM
I think we already know the answer to that.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on December 07, 2018, 01:58:00 PM
I note the No-deal Catastrophe articles are being pushed to the front in efforts to focus minds towards accepting this shitpiss deal.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 07, 2018, 02:12:51 PM
Tuesday, or maybe never if everything goes really tits up.

Heh! I'm back in the UK as the Titanic sinks.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 07, 2018, 02:49:46 PM
This is fun, and inexplicable, the tories have invited a camera crew to film their total humilation and disintegration - https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/12/itv-chief-whip-julian-smith-brexit-vote- (https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/12/itv-chief-whip-julian-smith-brexit-vote-)


Sounds like it might be the Let It Be of political documentaries.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 07, 2018, 03:40:02 PM
Exactly!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DsSofBYWwAEuZP8.jpg)

Lies such as pretending a bus like that existed when it didn’t.

And repeatedly posting an image of that bus even after you’ve been reminded that several decades’ worth of lies from the UK press about the EU fatally undermines your fake bus meme anyway.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/the-eu-have-archived-all-of-the-euromyths-printed-in-uk-media-and-it-makes-for-some-disturbing-reading/14/11/

You have no arguments left, biggy.  Give it up.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on December 07, 2018, 03:41:45 PM
This is fun, and inexplicable, the tories have invited a camera crew to film their total humilation and disintegration - https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/12/itv-chief-whip-julian-smith-brexit-vote- (https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/12/itv-chief-whip-julian-smith-brexit-vote-)


Sounds like it might be the Let It Be of political documentaries.

Or they know something we don't.

Don't underestimate these weasels.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 07, 2018, 03:44:17 PM
Or they know something we don't.

Don't underestimate these weasels.

I doubt they would invite a camera crew to join them without having a clear benefit in mind.

Presumably they think it’ll help them be seen as more human, or something.  Also I imagine they’ll relish the opportunity to keep attacking Labour for various made-up reasons.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on December 07, 2018, 03:59:48 PM
Smith will probably be doing Tim From The Office looks to the camera every time a minister says something stupid in an attempt to salvage his career. Like how everyone felt sorry for Boris Johnson's staff in that documentary about his time as foreign secretary, even though, deep down, they are nasty Tory shits too.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: finnquark on December 07, 2018, 04:08:14 PM
I doubt they would invite a camera crew to join them without having a clear benefit in mind.

Presumably they think it’ll help them be seen as more human, or something.  Also I imagine they’ll relish the opportunity to keep attacking Labour for various made-up reasons.

I mentioned yesterday that Conservative Home had an article condemning the whipping in the party, and the contributor who wrote that was damning about the TV access. Smith is the longest serving whip and he hasn't been there two years; Conservative Home reckoned they don't know their arse from their elbow, and good whips have been sacked by May.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 07, 2018, 04:09:12 PM
Lies such as pretending a bus like that existed when it didn’t.

Nobody is claiming its a real bus, keep up! Someone photoshopped it to highlight the tissue of lies remain was based on, whilst banging on relentlessly about a bus. And they've kept lying too haven't they, we are taking note. As have the EU - 'this is the final final deal and there will be no more negotiations'. If that's not a lie they're calling Jeremy Corbyn a liar, which isnt very nice.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 07, 2018, 04:11:23 PM
Nobody is claiming its a real bus, keep up! Someone photoshopped it to highlight the tissue of lies remain was based on, whilst banging on relentlessly about a bus. And they've kept lying too haven't they, we are taking note. As have the EU - 'this is the final final deal and there will be no more negotiations'. If that's not a lie they're calling Jeremy Corbyn a liar, which isnt very nice.

You know you'd still be welcome in my utopia. Pull up to the fire on your buffet, grab a few teacakes and we'll settle down for some serious 70s TV viewing.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 07, 2018, 04:21:16 PM
Nobody is claiming its a real bus, keep up! Someone photoshopped it to highlight the tissue of lies remain was based on

Stupid thing to for them to do, wasn’t it.  Strange choice of yours to keep taking their side, really.  And you keep banging on that your bus meme isn’t a real fake bus instead of addressing the point.

Lies such as pretending a bus like that existed when it didn’t.

And repeatedly posting an image of that bus even after you’ve been reminded that several decades’ worth of lies from the UK press about the EU fatally undermines your fake bus meme anyway.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/the-eu-have-archived-all-of-the-euromyths-printed-in-uk-media-and-it-makes-for-some-disturbing-reading/14/11/


You have no arguments left, biggy.  Give it up.

Do keep up!  ;)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: mothman on December 07, 2018, 05:44:51 PM
Heh! I'm back in the UK as the Titanic sinks.

Yeah? Better make a date to visit that Brazilian restaurant then, while there still are such things as restaurants.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Blumf on December 07, 2018, 05:55:45 PM
Heh! I'm back in the UK as the Titanic sinks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanic_II
Quote
Titanic II is a planned ocean liner intended to be a functional modern-day replica of the Olympic-class RMS Titanic.

Hijack the fucker and plough it straight into the nearest iceberg come the 29th of March.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 07, 2018, 06:12:21 PM
Stupid thing to for them to do, wasn’t it.  Strange choice of yours to keep taking their side, really.  And you keep banging on that your bus meme isn’t a real fake bus instead of addressing the point.

Do keep up!  ;)

I'm talking specifically about the remain lies in the 2016 referendum, but if you want to go trawling through the past let's not forget the biggest and most important lie in this entire thing, the one from 1973 and 1975, when we were told we were joining a common market with some 'cooperation', when they knew full well we were actually surrendering sovereignty and decided to withhold that from the voters -

(https://i.imgur.com/z13v6TV.jpg)

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/acft/FCO+30+1048.pdf (https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/acft/FCO+30+1048.pdf)


Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Darles Chickens on December 07, 2018, 06:17:25 PM
Not so much surrendering sovereignty as sharing sovereignty. It's inevitable if you wish to maintain frictionless trade with other nations. But at least we get a say in it. Once again, I ask you: in the UK-US trade deal which some Brexiteers wet their pants thinking about, we will have the same issue, but isn't it worse that we "da peeple" will have zero influence over it whatsoever? And you know it'll just be a race to the bottom in terms of standards and regulations. That really would be like surrendering sovereignty.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 07, 2018, 06:22:47 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanic_II
Hijack the fucker and plough it straight into the nearest iceberg come the 29th of March.

I leave again on 7th January.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 07, 2018, 06:40:09 PM
Not so much surrendering sovereignty as sharing sovereignty. It's inevitable if you wish to maintain frictionless trade with other nations. But at least we get a say in it. Once again, I ask you: in the UK-US trade deal which some Brexiteers wet their pants thinking about, we will have the same issue, but isn't it worse that we "da peeple" will have zero influence over it whatsoever? And you know it'll just be a race to the bottom in terms of standards and regulations. That really would be like surrendering sovereignty.


Even if that's true, if it was sold back in the 70s on the basis that we'd have to 'share' some sovereignty with the EU, we wouldn't have joined. That's why they withheld what they were told in that document I linked too from the voters - which is the ultimate, foundational lie in this entire issue.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 07, 2018, 06:57:31 PM

Even if that's true, if it was sold back in the 70s on the basis that we'd have to 'share' some sovereignty with the EU, we wouldn't have joined.

Evidence needed that we wouldn't have joined.

You'd have to have been pretty daft to think between 1973-75 that joining the EU meant Britain would be running the whole thing.

But I suspect you already know that you are over-egging this.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: finnquark on December 07, 2018, 07:01:35 PM
Evidence needed that we wouldn't have joined.

You'd have to have been pretty daft to think between 1973-75 that joining the EU meant Britain would be running the whole thing.

But I suspect you already know that you are over-egging this.

The 1975 referendum saw numerous Labour front benchers mentioning pooled sovereignty in their campaigns. The debate between Benn and Jenkins contains a full discussion of sovereignty, with both men treating the voters like adults.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 07, 2018, 07:25:42 PM
Edward Heath told voters at the time, knowing his civil events had very specifically warned him the opposite was true -

Quote
There are some in this country who fear that, in going into Europe, we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty. These fears, I need hardly say, are completely unjustified.”
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on December 07, 2018, 07:33:05 PM
No, that's an interpretation of your part that relies on understanding "independence" and "sovereignty" in a manner thats not really justifiable in that context.

Any agreement with someone else subsequently infringes on your "independence" given a broad enough understanding of the concept. You'll shit brix when you read the GFA.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 07, 2018, 07:36:10 PM
I am very tired
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Johnny Yesno on December 07, 2018, 07:39:17 PM
I am very tired

People with a child's rudimentary understanding of language will do that to you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QVPUIRGthI
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 07, 2018, 07:42:09 PM
Who's that long-haired hippy. Spell in the army would do him the world of good.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 07, 2018, 07:48:46 PM
No, that's an interpretation of your part that relies on understanding "independence" and "sovereignty" in a manner thats not really justifiable in that context.

Any agreement with someone else subsequently infringes on your "independence" given a broad enough understanding of the concept. You'll shit brix when you read the GFA.


No its quite clear we were very specifically misled about what joining the common market meant, and we've discussed many times there is absolutely no legal or constitutional doubt that membership of the EU does involve voluntarily surrendering our sovereignty. Except it wasn't voluntarily because the British people didn't know it was happening, even though the politicians did.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 07, 2018, 08:13:49 PM
This isn’t about Theresa May, is it?

If only we had a Brexit thread.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: olliebean on December 07, 2018, 08:39:51 PM
The 1975 referendum saw numerous Labour front benchers mentioning pooled sovereignty in their campaigns. The debate between Benn and Jenkins contains a full discussion of sovereignty, with both men treating the voters like adults.

This is a vitally important point. If you treat the voters like children, a good proportion of them will behave like children. The Brexit vote was essentially 17 million infantilised voters throwing their toys out of the pram, having failed to realise that this leaves them with no toys.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: sick as a pike on December 07, 2018, 08:39:58 PM
Grimly amusing from Michael Heseltine on R4 earlier: "Theresa May's greatest strength is that no-one has the slightest idea who could replace her."
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: mothman on December 07, 2018, 08:42:12 PM
This is a vitally important point. If you treat the voters like children, a good proportion of them will behave like children. The Brexit vote was essentially 17 million infantilised voters throwing their toys out of the pram, having failed to realise that this leaves them with no toys.

Not arguing. But one could argue (Biggy probably won't) that many of them felt their toys were already broken... or were about to be broken by brown people.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: olliebean on December 07, 2018, 08:46:30 PM
Not arguing. But one could argue (Biggy probably won't) that many of them felt their toys were already broken... or were about to be broken by brown people.

Yes, and our politicians indulged them in that childish belief rather than explain the truth to them like adults, which is precisely the point.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 07, 2018, 09:58:44 PM
This isn’t about Theresa May, is it?

If only we had a Brexit thread.

I think that Theresa May...

Theresa May today...

...willing Theresa May...

Theresa May...or may not...

Theresa May... exit

Theresa Mexit...

Theresrexit...

Brexit...
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 07, 2018, 10:38:43 PM
This is a vitally important point. If you treat the voters like children, a good proportion of them will behave like children. The Brexit vote was essentially 17 million infantilised voters throwing their toys out of the pram, having failed to realise that this leaves them with no toys.


The remain vote was 16m, not 17m!!


But seriously, what a pathetic piece of sneering, contemptuous snobbery. Have a word with yourself.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Blumf on December 07, 2018, 10:43:47 PM
This isn’t about Theresa May, is it?

If only we had a Brexit thread.

She's so hopeless she can't even keep a thread dedicated to her on topic.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 07, 2018, 10:45:05 PM
But seriously, what a pathetic piece of sneering, contemptuous snobbery. Have a word with yourself.

I am forced to agree with Biggy. Ffs.

Within the Brexit voting population, there are a large number of selfish xenophobic pampered gammons, who live in their 3 bedroom semis and want to send the bastards back. But they, on their own, are not the full story.

There are also the systematically uneducated people who are fed to the teeth with shitty tabloid/Wetherspoons propaganda and—mainly—utterly let down by 40 years of neoliberal government, yes, but these are not children throwing toys out of prams. Some of them have no toys.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 07, 2018, 11:17:32 PM
these are not children throwing toys out of prams. Some of them have no toys.

In any case, this is why I always prefer to throw the baby out with the bathwater.  Thusly displaced to floor level these babies quickly realise that the toys (if they had any in the first place, as you say) aren't actually gone, but just no longer in the pram or bath.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on December 08, 2018, 09:28:35 AM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46490642

Only just got her cabinet job back and already writing alternative narratives in the press

Everyone of them wants their own personal Brexit

Most intriguingly is not even pretending this deal is going to be approved. I wonder if even she will even vote for it herself.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 08, 2018, 09:51:40 AM

... personal Brexit.. 


Depeche Mode's cheap cash in attempt didn't even chart.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: finnquark on December 08, 2018, 08:32:48 PM
Will Quince, PPS to Gavin Williamson, has resigned over the deal, and the politics correspondent of the Telegraph is saying more are on their way. Oddschecker at the minute has Raab to be next Tory leader available at 9/2, Javid at 5/1, Gove and Johnson available at 6/1, lots of other runners and riders at 7/1.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on December 08, 2018, 09:35:30 PM
I got 7-1 against the withdrawal agreement passing. It seemed good at the time, but it’s increasingly looking underpriced.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: olliebean on December 08, 2018, 09:39:14 PM

The remain vote was 16m, not 17m!!


But seriously, what a pathetic piece of sneering, contemptuous snobbery. Have a word with yourself.

OK, fair enough, not all Leave voters. But whenever they turn up in the audience of Question Time or being interviewed on the street or what-have-you, most of them seem to know fuck-all about it and have pathetically naive and childish opinions about how the Government should proceed (principal amongst which being "Just get on with it," like there's absolutely no need for any planning or organisation whatsoever). And while we're about it, I'm not saying a fair proportion of Remain voters haven't also been infantilised, they just show it in different ways.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: finnquark on December 08, 2018, 11:01:04 PM
I got 7-1 against the withdrawal agreement passing. It seemed good at the time, but it’s increasingly looking underpriced.

What happens if there isn't a vote on it, did you go draw no bet?

Mood music from the Tory boy journos is she's going to delay it, but to what end god knows.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: finnquark on December 08, 2018, 11:13:12 PM
The government talking out the vote on Tuesday, or even pulling the vote actually, would be a fitting end to a period of constitutional vandalism that began with the Fixed-term Parliaments Act.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Mister Six on December 09, 2018, 12:09:00 AM
The government talking out the vote on Tuesday, or even pulling the vote actually, would be a fitting end to a period of constitutional vandalism that began with the Fixed-term Parliaments Act.

What's wrong with that act? Stopping a PM from calling a general election when the wind is blowing in their favour seems like a good idea to me.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 09, 2018, 12:12:58 AM
What's wrong with that act? Stopping a PM from calling a general election when the wind is blowing in their favour seems like a good idea to me.

I’d tend to agree if we hadn’t had a general election last year on exactly that basis.

I’m more concerned about the fact a government can redraw boundary lines as they see fit to concoct the best outcome for themselves. The
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Mister Six on December 09, 2018, 12:24:55 AM
I’d tend to agree if we hadn’t had a general election last year on exactly that basis.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Been a busy fucking year, hasn't it?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Thomas on December 09, 2018, 12:37:13 AM
A reminder of what the British government has been up to amid the distracting noise of Brexit:

The other night, I watched BBC Panorama's 'The Universal Credit Crisis' (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrdEVhyoiP4) (12 November 2018). I'm sure we're all familiar with the problems, and perhaps you've already seen the episode, but, if you haven't, I'd implore you to give it 29 minutes of your time. Even though I was aware of the stats and facts, I was shocked to see the reality of affected lives, and the image of a man lining up his tools to sell for pittance nudged me well into crying territory.

I know that at least one person on here has suffered under the implementation of Universal Credit. If for some reason your fellow constituents comprise a communal brainwrong and you've a Tory MP, you might email the Honourable Member with a link to the programme, and ask them to watch it.

And remember, the fantastic website https://www.theyworkforyou.com/ tracks the decisions, votes, and expenditures of your MP. Delight today in the empty thrill of checking whether not your local representative cares about poor people, foreigners, and badgers.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: finnquark on December 09, 2018, 10:01:37 AM
What's wrong with that act? Stopping a PM from calling a general election when the wind is blowing in their favour seems like a good idea to me.

There's the fact that it doesn't stop PMs from calling early elections, and also the increased difficulty in getting rid of coalition or minority governments. It was brought in to make sure the coalition lasted, and the fact of it being a transfer of power to the commons was overblown. The Tories pledged to get rid of it in their last manifesto, but I imagine they've changed their mind now.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: mothman on December 09, 2018, 11:30:31 AM
Is this it? Is this the week?

Probably not.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Blumf on December 09, 2018, 12:02:36 PM
Like getting dried on shit out of the tread of your shoe.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 09, 2018, 12:14:50 PM
Like getting dried on shit out of the tread of your shoe.

Dried on shit = High on drugs
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: finnquark on December 09, 2018, 12:38:00 PM
Jon Trickett's mooting of a minority government led by Labour without the need for a General Election is another negative consequence of the Fixed-term Parliaments Act, in constitutional terms (although as a Labour member, I'd obviously prefer some sort of Labour led government). Since 1945 Eden, Super Mac, Douglas-Home, Callaghan, Major, Brown and May have all become PM by replacing an incumbent without a General Election. But there hasn't been a change of ruling party without a General Election since then. I think the last time it happened was Salisbury in 1885! I'm not even particularly fussed I suppose - anything to get shot of the Tories - but I do think the Cameron government played fast and loose with convention/constitutional matters, and typically of their shallow political style, had very little idea about the long term consequences. Recently I read a few analyses of the Act, and one pointed out that if the Commons defeats the government in a vote of no confidence, for the 14 days that the government has to win a second vote of confidence, nobody seems entirely sure who the government actually is. The implications of the Act are going to be sorely tested in the upcoming week.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 09, 2018, 01:23:27 PM
Unfortunately I think such a step would be considered undemocratic by most voters, even though it is perfectly legitimate.  Remember how the tabloids attacked Labour for floating the very idea of forming a minority government without first being the largest party?  "The very nerve of them!!"  All that stuff.

I'd rather the Tories burn themselves out, anyway.  Burn out Gove, burn out BoJo, give them all a shot at the leadership and let these EU negotiations fuck every last one before Labour pick up the pieces.  The Tories deserve to be regarded by everyone as one singular nasty, vindictive mind, not a group of reasonable people slightly disgruntled by May Doing It Wrong.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: greencalx on December 09, 2018, 01:58:51 PM
There is no chance of May/the tories losing a confidence vote.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 09, 2018, 03:39:58 PM
There is no chance of May/the tories losing a confidence vote.

They've seriously pissed off the DUP tho... one of them said [paraphrase] 'Corbyn: I don't like the guy, don't get me wrong, but he gets it.'
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on December 09, 2018, 04:28:31 PM
Even winning the no-confidence vote will be another winnowing and leave the Tories more divided and not solve the situation they created and fully own.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Captain Z on December 09, 2018, 05:01:18 PM
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/590/cpsprodpb/102DE/production/_104707266_theresamay.jpg)(https://www.dreamteamfc.com/c/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2017/03/McClaren.jpg?strip=all&quality=100&w=742&h=600&crop=1)

Harry Redknapp waits by the phone.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 09, 2018, 05:16:37 PM
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/590/cpsprodpb/102DE/production/_104707266_theresamay.jpg)

CHEER UP LA
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 09, 2018, 05:18:39 PM
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/590/cpsprodpb/102DE/production/_104707266_theresamay.jpg)



"GIANT CUNT"
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 09, 2018, 05:30:23 PM
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/590/cpsprodpb/102DE/production/_104707266_theresamay.jpg)

Like some Dickensian hypocrite mourning the loss of her despised husband.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on December 09, 2018, 05:37:31 PM
Unfortunately I think such a step would be considered undemocratic by most voters, even though it is perfectly legitimate.  Remember how the tabloids attacked Labour for floating the very idea of forming a minority government without first being the largest party?  "The very nerve of them!!"  All that stuff.

I'd rather the Tories burn themselves out, anyway.  Burn out Gove, burn out BoJo, give them all a shot at the leadership and let these EU negotiations fuck every last one before Labour pick up the pieces.  The Tories deserve to be regarded by everyone as one singular nasty, vindictive mind, not a group of reasonable people slightly disgruntled by May Doing It Wrong.

That’s where I am. A minority Labour government with 261 seats will be a dead man walking. You can’t pass anything with that. Lib Dem and SNP support will be in short supply without making huge concessions with Brexit and even then it’s not enough to comfortably pass legislation against 330 Tories.

It would literally be the “coalition of chaos” the Tories promised, would damage Labour irreparably and deliver a Tory majority at the next election. Labour need to wait this out.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 09, 2018, 05:43:56 PM
What Labour would do is to pass a Queen's speech with nothing but popular policies in it: nationalisation of rail/water etc., setting up a national investment bank … stuff like that. If it fails, it fails, and you have more evidence that a GE is needed. If it passes, then you immediately start passing the legislation you want. At some point it will start getting voted down and you point out that you're not being allowed to get on with the stuff in the Queen's speech and you argue that a GE is needed. Hopefully during the GE you get the chance to call on other parties to ask them why they were voting down all these popular policies.

You do not have a confidence and supply arrangement. You certainly do not enter into a coalition.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 09, 2018, 06:09:12 PM
More like coalition eh readers, because of Santa naughty little boys and girls etc!!
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Buelligan on December 09, 2018, 06:21:41 PM
Anyone else noticed how Boris Johnson's hair styling has changed.  Clownish to Imperial Rome.  I wonder why?

(http://www.sickchirpse.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Boris-hair.jpg)(https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/politics/2018/12/09/TELEMMGLPICT000183180404_trans_NvBQzQNjv4Bqek9vKm18v_rkIPH9w2GMNtm3NAjPW-2_OvjCiS6COCU.jpeg?imwidth=1400)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: finnquark on December 09, 2018, 06:23:16 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dt7cQUQX4AEmDX_.jpg)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Absorb the anus burn on December 09, 2018, 06:36:02 PM
Aslan? More Aslob!
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 09, 2018, 06:36:16 PM
Anyone else noticed how Boris Johnson's hair styling has changed.  Clownish to Imperial Rome.  I wonder why?

(http://www.sickchirpse.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Boris-hair.jpg)(https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/politics/2018/12/09/TELEMMGLPICT000183180404_trans_NvBQzQNjv4Bqek9vKm18v_rkIPH9w2GMNtm3NAjPW-2_OvjCiS6COCU.jpeg?imwidth=1400)

Cos he's a cunt
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 09, 2018, 06:42:23 PM
Cos he's a cunt

Your future leader is watching you. Be careful.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Buelligan on December 09, 2018, 06:54:20 PM
Cos he's a cunt

When you see it, you'll shit brix.

(https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/politics/2018/12/09/TELEMMGLPICT000183180404_trans_NvBQzQNjv4Bqek9vKm18v_rkIPH9w2GMNtm3NAjPW-2_OvjCiS6COCU.jpeg?imwidth=1400)

Or is it just a flesh coloured tie?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 09, 2018, 07:15:45 PM
Night of the Long Ties
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: FredNurke on December 09, 2018, 07:24:29 PM
He should take a leaf (or several) out of Caesar's book, and wear a laurel wreath to hide his baldnescommemorate his many vict - oh, hang on.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 09, 2018, 07:39:30 PM
He should take a leaf out of Caesar's book and fucking...die in a house
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: græskar on December 09, 2018, 07:45:10 PM

[tag] when you see it, you'll shit brexit[/tag]
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 09, 2018, 07:46:54 PM
(https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/politics/2018/12/09/TELEMMGLPICT000183180404_trans_NvBQzQNjv4Bqek9vKm18v_rkIPH9w2GMNtm3NAjPW-2_OvjCiS6COCU.jpeg?imwidth=1400)

How much of a honeymoon period do you reckon he'd have as a replacement PM before a general election?

I'm hoping he becomes leader and they don't do a general election until he has EU shit on him and he loses all his 'lol boris he's one of the lads and so above politics lololol' shine.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 09, 2018, 08:50:03 PM
Trump-style tie there, but he does look like he’s cutting back on the buffoon image now he knows May is near her end (win or lose she’s toast).

He’s wasting his time though. The Tory membership would vote for him, but the MPs would never allow his name to go forward to them.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 09, 2018, 08:53:26 PM
Johnson has too many enemies in the party to win a leadership contest. It'll be someone bland who hasn't upset too many people, like John Major.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: jobotic on December 09, 2018, 08:54:29 PM
Night of the Long Ties

Very good
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 09, 2018, 09:54:04 PM
Johnson has too many enemies in the party to win a leadership contest. It'll be someone bland who hasn't upset too many people, like John Major.

I think he's had his go, to be honest.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 09, 2018, 09:57:58 PM
IT'LL BE JEREMY HUNT CALLING IT NOW
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 09, 2018, 10:00:51 PM
IT'LL BE JEREMY HUNT CALLING IT NOW

The biggest laugh. A laugh heard across the ages. A cataclysmic snigger.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: katzenjammer on December 09, 2018, 10:06:18 PM
LEAKED: Footage From Inside No. 10 Downing Street! (https://youtu.be/Tjp5OmoDYQM)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 09, 2018, 10:10:51 PM
LEAKED: Footage From Inside No. 10 Downing Street! (https://youtu.be/Tjp5OmoDYQM)

Good, until I saw it was a Centrist campaign video.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 09, 2018, 10:18:28 PM
Good, until I saw it was a Centrist campaign video.


Exactly, who is that meant to convince? They couldnt be more smug and tone deaf, and will probably deliver another leave vote if they continue to be front and centre in a second referendum. I can see a montage now of Gary Lineker, James cordon and Tony Robinson urging us to remain.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: finnquark on December 09, 2018, 10:20:09 PM
Johnny Mercer, who I have never heard utter a single political thought in his time as an MP, is on Westminster Hour here talking some awful shite. Apparently Mrs May is feeling bullish, according to someone else. Where do they find these people? Sorry to add another edit, but someone has just claimed the public want her to hang around after a 100+ vote defeat, in contrast to Cameron heading off after the referendum. Mad.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 09, 2018, 10:25:56 PM
Conservative Party members, darling. Every one of them. Imagine joining the Conservative Party. Does that make it easier?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 09, 2018, 10:27:21 PM
Johnny Mercer, who I have never heard utter a single political thought in his time as an MP, is on Westminster Hour here talking some awful shite. Apparently Mrs May is feeling bullish, according to someone else. Where do they find these people? Sorry to add another edit, but someone has just claimed the public want her to hang around after a 100+ vote defeat, in contrast to Cameron heading off after the referendum. Mad.

Patriotic rabid Conservatives positive-trigger words 101 "bullish".
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 09, 2018, 10:27:47 PM
almost an anagram of shitbull.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: finnquark on December 09, 2018, 10:30:39 PM
Not sure what the difference between Mercer/the other man and Labour voices rabbiting on about a General Election is. Similar levels of irreality.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 09, 2018, 10:32:03 PM
They've spent the last week begging May to change course. She's ignored them and is heading at warp factor five at the cliff face so all that is left is to show loyalty.

Tory voters like that sort of thing. It doesn't matter they'll all be lining up to get her to resign come wednesday morning, but for now she has their 'support'.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: ajsmith2 on December 09, 2018, 10:53:33 PM
the public want her to hang

Dunno, I can see a majority getting behind this.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Dr Trouser on December 10, 2018, 09:59:35 AM
So the ECJ has said she can now revoke Art 50 if she wants. This is excellent as she now has so many ways of of conspiring her own downfall. Which one will she choose? It's getting really exciting now!

Let's not lose sight of the fact this is all about the end of Theresa May. Yes there are other implications (which could ruin our lives for years to come) but come on, it's the end of a Prime Minister, which is always great fun!
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Howj Begg on December 10, 2018, 10:02:22 AM
Are50Maygedden
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: jobotic on December 10, 2018, 10:38:05 AM
That's some quality contenders

Quote
[Gove] said that it was “extremely unlikely” that he would stand for the Conservative party leadership. But he refused to rule it out. Yesterday Boris Johnson, Esther McVey and Dominic Raab all signalled that they were interested in standing too in TV interviews.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 10, 2018, 10:52:32 AM
Probably nothing but I saw on the Guardian’s live feed that one of the Daily Hate Mail’s reporters says there will be an ‘emergency conference call’ between ministers and the PM at 11ish.

The ECJ’s ruling would have surprised no one so what has sparked that?

Has May finally buckled?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on December 10, 2018, 10:58:12 AM
Cool. So the Tories perpetuate their pissing contest while the country is dragged towards the cliff edge. Fucking spanners.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 10, 2018, 11:13:04 AM
Are50Maygedden

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyLMgIR69G4&app=desktop (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyLMgIR69G4&app=desktop)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 10, 2018, 11:38:33 AM
Sounds like she might be ready to pull (the vote).
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 10, 2018, 11:39:23 AM
Quote
Bloomberg's @TimRoss_1 reporting that the PM has called off tomorrow's vote.

BOOOOOO
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: jobotic on December 10, 2018, 11:42:44 AM
Not true. It can't be.

Gove said this morning it was 100% going ahead.

He did also once say that all schools should perform above the average but come on, he's no fool.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Dr Trouser on December 10, 2018, 11:44:54 AM
Oh come on that's not fair! I was looking forward to the chaos tomorrow.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 10, 2018, 11:46:26 AM
Joke! Sack the lot of them.

Kicking the can down the toad. I dint have time for this procrastination
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: thugler on December 10, 2018, 11:47:25 AM
I expect just delayed while she tries to make some minor changes that please noone.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 10, 2018, 11:49:33 AM
Presumably she'll try and change the details over the backstop. What a farce, I was really looking forward to their utter humiliation tomorrow.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 10, 2018, 11:50:11 AM
FFS. Will have to prise her cold dead hands off the steering wheel.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 10, 2018, 11:50:27 AM
Prediction: May got some meaningless rewording out of EU leaders which she will present with great fanfare, but everyone will immediately see is worth nothing.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 10, 2018, 11:55:49 AM
Prediction: May got some meaningless rewording out of EU leaders which she will present with great fanfare, but everyone will immediately see is worth nothing.


An old favourite strategy of the EU that.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 10, 2018, 11:58:09 AM
Quote
Two cabinet sources tell me vote being pulled - not, repeat not, yet officially confirmed

— Laura Kuenssberg (@bbclaurak) December 10, 2018
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Dr Trouser on December 10, 2018, 12:08:16 PM
No 10 briefing to sky that 'yes it's on!'
Cabinet ministers leaking to Bloomberg 'no it's not!'

fantastic.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Fabian Thomsett on December 10, 2018, 12:10:16 PM
No 10 briefing to sky that 'yes it's on!'
Cabinet ministers leaking to Bloomberg 'no it's not!'

fantastic.

Let's have a referendum on it.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 10, 2018, 12:10:20 PM
I bet it's May against pretty much everyone else. Everyone else can see it's a disaster, she insists on plowing on. And now they're actively briefing against her.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 10, 2018, 12:14:15 PM
Quote
Breaking: The Prime Minister will be making an oral statement today at 330pm titled “Exiting the European Union”.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Dr Trouser on December 10, 2018, 12:14:25 PM
Statement from her at 15:30.

I think it would be very easy to predict word for word what she's going to say, based on the last 3 statements that said absolutely nothing.

Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on December 10, 2018, 12:15:38 PM
Quote
There will be three Government oral statements in the @HouseofCommons today:

1 - Theresa May: Exiting the EU
2 - Andrea Leadsom: Business Statement
3 - Stephen Barclay: EU Exit - Article 50

Keep on down, keep on down the rooooad.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Howj Begg on December 10, 2018, 12:17:01 PM
Keep on down, keep on down the rooooad.

chooglin' out of the EU
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: jobotic on December 10, 2018, 12:17:04 PM
I hope one of their oral statements is to projectile rowf all over the Commons floor. Then a mic drop.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 10, 2018, 12:18:16 PM
Maybe she’s going to delay the vote until just before the date of leaving so the only choice is her deal or no deal?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 10, 2018, 12:19:51 PM
It's just delaying its inevitable defeat, after it comes back in a reworded but largely identical state. It would make more sense for her to call a general election, considering she stood at the last one largely on the basis that she was the only person able to negotiate and deliver a brexit deal - something which she is now clearly incapable of doing.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 10, 2018, 12:29:25 PM
Statement from her at 15:30.

I think it would be very easy to predict word for word what she's going to say, based on the last 3 statements that said absolutely nothing.

Why am i always in the air when important things happen!
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Dr Trouser on December 10, 2018, 12:30:22 PM
Why am i always in the air when important things happen!

Up in the air; just like Brexit eh lads!
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Funcrusher on December 10, 2018, 12:32:22 PM
Why am i always in the air when important things happen!

A fiendishly cunning alibi.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 10, 2018, 12:32:57 PM
Everything means Nothing

Liars, bumblers, procrastinators, backstabbers, racist, scum

Vote Conservative

(do you really want Mr. Corbyn taking us back to 1972?)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 10, 2018, 12:47:46 PM
Are50Maygedden

Is this available on a keyring?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 10, 2018, 12:49:35 PM
I expect just delayed while she tries to make some minor changes that please noone.

Free new Wallace and Gromit episode featuring a shit impersonator as Wallace.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Dr Trouser on December 10, 2018, 01:11:18 PM
ooh ooh! apparently the house has to vote that a vote can be rescheduled, so in theory she may lose the vote to allow her to move the vote she was going to lose.

Probably won't happen but just adds a certain piquant to the whole shit soup.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 10, 2018, 01:15:13 PM
If there has to be a vote about the vote she might lose it. As I posted in the Brexit thread the ERG are pissed off about the delay.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on December 10, 2018, 01:16:25 PM
Be great if they force the vote to go ahead today.

I think the results will smoke out 95% of who is going to vote against whatever deal arises.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on December 10, 2018, 01:16:35 PM
My girlfriend is American, and yet I'm still somehow unable to have a sense of superiority over their own political shitshow.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Fabian Thomsett on December 10, 2018, 01:17:49 PM
Time to revoke and retrigger 50 surely? Another two years of Tory infighting!
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Dr Trouser on December 10, 2018, 01:18:28 PM
right so apparently something Hilary Benn amended means she might not need to have a vote to move the vote. No idea, I'm truly lost now.

When did the workings of government begin to model themselves on fucking CalvinBall?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: jobotic on December 10, 2018, 01:21:13 PM
Brilliant, except Calvinball is so so much more fun.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 10, 2018, 01:21:53 PM
It was always arkane but Cameron's constitutional meddling has made it all even more confusing.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 10, 2018, 01:22:10 PM
And the DUP may want to kill this while they can … It's going to be a frantic few hours.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on December 10, 2018, 01:24:39 PM
It's all over.  May said "Mornington Crescent".
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Pingers on December 10, 2018, 01:25:26 PM
You could pick a random off Come Dine with Me and they'd do a better job than these funts.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 10, 2018, 01:27:14 PM
It all feels like a slow motion Seppuku
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 10, 2018, 01:27:16 PM
Comedy gold:

Quote
@lewis_goodall
 Some Tory MPs now saying they won’t vote to call the meaningful vote off if a vote is required. This could get very dangerous. There could be no greater display of political impotence than a prime minister who not only can’t win a vote but can’t even cancel one.


Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on December 10, 2018, 01:29:37 PM
Quote
Three Commons statements due
Theresa May's 15:30 GMT statement entitled Exiting the EU will be followed by Leader of the Commons Andrea Leadsom announcing changes to parliamentary business for the days ahead. Brexit Secretary Stephen Barclay will then make a statement to MPs on the Article 50 process

Full scale self-preservation.

May, the final century
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on December 10, 2018, 01:34:20 PM
I have had to remind 3 people at work to not feel sorry for the person who has inflicted all this on herself and for motivations that were cynical and arrogantly calculated.

No mercy for May, as under her you have received none.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 10, 2018, 01:36:57 PM
My wife is on the plane back from Brussels as I write. Reports are that she has a better deal from the EU than May will ever get. A new PM by the morning?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: TIAL on December 10, 2018, 01:37:07 PM
3 possible scenarios: https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/12/theres-no-pain-free-way-government-cancel-meaningful-vote

Vote to postpone the vote
Get a cabinet member to talk for so long (8+ hours) everything gets delayed
Just refuse to carry over the discussion from previous sessions
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 10, 2018, 01:41:29 PM
The filibuster thing is quite common in the US isnt it? Not sure I've ever seen it happen here.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Howj Begg on December 10, 2018, 01:41:43 PM
My wife is on the plane back from Brussels as I write. Reports are that she has a better deal from the EU than May will ever get. A new PM by the morning?

more Russian infiltration in our politics
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Sin Agog on December 10, 2018, 01:43:51 PM
The filibuster thing is quite common in the US isnt it? Not sure I've ever seen it happen here.

I hope it does happen. I've always been curious to know what Sajid Javid's favourite Bratz doll is.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 10, 2018, 01:44:10 PM
She still has the cuntitude to joke...at the Conservative Friends of Israel annual luncheon

Quote
Round of applause at
@CFoI
 for Theresa May as she takes the stage. “It’s a great pleasure to address the Conservative Friends Of Israel. Is there something else happening today?”
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on December 10, 2018, 01:45:09 PM
The filibuster thing is quite common in the US isnt it? Not sure I've ever seen it happen here.

Mogg / Davies / Chope did it routinely during Cameron's government and more recently Alan Duncan was involved in it (which surprised me as he is some leagues ahead of them intellectually).

There is no lower abuse of democracy in my opinion than talking over it until there is for bureaucratic reasons, no more time.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 10, 2018, 01:45:17 PM
I hope it does happen. I've always been curious to know what Sajid Javid's favourite Bratz doll is.


I'm just imagining him singing I'm Just a Girl who Can't Say No like Polly does in Fawlty Towers.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 10, 2018, 01:48:26 PM
Mogg / Davies / Chope did it routinely during Cameron's government and more recently Alan Duncan was involved in it (which surprised me as he is some leagues ahead of them intellectually).

There is no lower abuse of democracy in my opinion than talking over it until there is for bureaucratic reasons, no more time.

Not for this long though was it? Nancy Pelosi did one earlier this year in the US that was over 8 hours, and she's almost 80, so it doable I guess.  I agree it would be incredibly shameful if anyone attempted it.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 10, 2018, 01:56:33 PM
I guess she could try to make off with the mace (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceremonial_mace#United_Kingdom)...
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 10, 2018, 02:02:26 PM
They missed that Hezza was bare chested at the time:

Quote
In 1976, Michael Heseltine, a member of the Conservative Party, seized the mace from the table and held it above his head after Labour MPs on the government side started to sing "The Red Flag", the traditional anthem of the Labour Party, during a heated debate on the controversial Aircraft and Shipbuilding Industries Bill, which nationalised large parts of the UK aerospace and shipbuilding industries.[22]

Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Harry Badger on December 10, 2018, 02:03:49 PM
Mogg / Davies / Chope did it routinely during Cameron's government and more recently Alan Duncan was involved in it (which surprised me as he is some leagues ahead of them intellectually).

There is no lower abuse of democracy in my opinion than talking over it until there is for bureaucratic reasons, no more time.

Dennis Skinner twice talked out pro-life measures by taking three hours to move a writ for a by-election.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Jittlebags on December 10, 2018, 02:13:04 PM

I'm just imagining him singing I'm Just a Girl who Can't Say No like Polly does in Fawlty Towers.

So, Uncle ted comes in with his crate of brown ale and mother says, "Oh, Ted, look who's here.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 10, 2018, 02:24:44 PM
According to the Telegraph May will announce she’s delayed the vote so she can go back to Brussels and get a legally binding assurance that we won’t get stuck in the backstop indefinitely.

Thing is, will the EU go that far?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 10, 2018, 02:26:10 PM
They were saying only this morning that the withdrawal deal is the final deal and there will be no more negotiations. Nobody ever believed that did they? We'll see I guess.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 10, 2018, 02:30:08 PM
If the backstop is, for instance, time limited then what would happen when it ended?

The backstop exists because of a very real and very thorny problem. How can you have no border between the two Irelands and have a UK outside of the EU?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on December 10, 2018, 02:31:15 PM
Dennis Skinner twice talked out pro-life measures by taking three hours to move a writ for a by-election.

Yes, and that counts too. Shithousery for good is still shithousery.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Captain Z on December 10, 2018, 02:33:34 PM
December 2020:

"I am clear that we will be leaving the EU next March..."

"meanwhile, there are rumours that the party is close to the number of letters required for a no-confidence vote..."
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Sin Agog on December 10, 2018, 02:34:35 PM
Yes, and that counts too. Shithousery for good is still shithousery.

Even when Jimmy Stewart did it in Mr Smith Goes to Washington?  I think he went twenty-three hours in that.  Eight's a doddle.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 10, 2018, 02:35:47 PM
I would, at this stage, be entirely unsurprised if May's statement consists of her saying 'We WILL be having the vote tomorrow'
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: jobotic on December 10, 2018, 02:39:32 PM
We had the vote yesterday. I won. Remember?

Laura K - you'll back me up, I won yeah?

Yes you did. Strrrong and motherfuckin stable.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: rjd2 on December 10, 2018, 02:43:24 PM
Always thought she had the numbers to survive any challenge, but a lot of front line Tories have had to sell this deal to their base who loath it while also knowing it would not pass. If it cancelled even the loyalists may want her gone.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Blue Jam on December 10, 2018, 02:49:49 PM
On the subject of filibustering, there's also this cunt:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/philip-davies-filibuster-domestic-violence-a7479266.html

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/24/tory-mp-90-minute-attempt-to-talk-out-domestic-violence-bill

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/philip-davies-the-master-of-filibuster-and-friend-to-rogue-landlords-9924580.html

He's also Esther McVey's significant other, and a good reason to hope we don't all wake up tomorrow to find she's our new PM.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Funcrusher on December 10, 2018, 02:50:28 PM
Tweet from Telegraph journo says that

PM told Cabinet Tories would suffer a 'notable' loss if they pressed ahead with vote on her deal.

Cabinet presumably replied 'no shit, Sherlock'.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: thugler on December 10, 2018, 03:04:38 PM
According to the Telegraph May will announce she’s delayed the vote so she can go back to Brussels and get a legally binding assurance that we won’t get stuck in the backstop indefinitely.

Thing is, will the EU go that far?

Say they did, would it then get voted through, no. So why bother
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: thraxx on December 10, 2018, 03:16:31 PM
According to the Telegraph May will announce she’s delayed the vote so she can go back to Brussels and get a legally binding assurance that we won’t get stuck in the backstop indefinitely.

Thing is, will the EU go that far?

This is what’s going to happen, I’m now fairly certain.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 10, 2018, 03:22:43 PM
This is what’s going to happen, I’m now fairly certain.

What are you now fairly certain about? Aren't you the one who was saying it was definitely going to pass, when I was telling you it definitely wouldn't?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: :( on December 10, 2018, 03:27:13 PM
Having a good cock day today. Just feels so fucking big and meaty.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 10, 2018, 03:27:53 PM
The EU position has been unequivocal in recent days, so not sure what she thinks she's going to get that would suddenly change the numbers so massively?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Dr Trouser on December 10, 2018, 03:30:16 PM
She's in the house, and seems smiley and chatty.

Come on Theresa!

Edit: the MP behind Jame Brokenshire just picked two nostrils (his own) with two fingers (again his own), screw you Netflix this is TV GOLD!
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: thraxx on December 10, 2018, 03:31:58 PM
What are you now fairly certain about? Aren't you the one who was saying it was definitely going to pass, when I was telling you it definitely wouldn't?

I’m fairly certain that she’s going back to Europe to renegotiate something, hence the delay Announcement. Futile thing to do, but that’s what I reckon.

No I didn’t say it was going through, I was worried that everyone was marshalling to get it through because the media and tories were coming out in support of it. I also said that I hope you were right, iirc.

Is that okay?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: jobotic on December 10, 2018, 03:32:36 PM
She's in the house, and seems smiley and chatty.

Come on Theresa!

Boo-urns!
Boo-urns!
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Dr Trouser on December 10, 2018, 03:35:19 PM
here we go

openly being laughed at, but is using the backstop kerfuffle as the reason to delay the vote

edit: I'm not 100 per cent sure but she's now rambling incoherently
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 10, 2018, 03:42:03 PM
I’m fairly certain that she’s going back to Europe to renegotiate something, hence the delay Announcement. Futile thing to do, but that’s what I reckon.

No I didn’t say it was going through, I was worried that everyone was marshalling to get it through because the media and tories were coming out in support of it. I also said that I hope you were right, iirc.

Is that okay?

Yes, it's fine, of course. I mean, you don't come here to have all your mistakes picked over in the way I'm obviously trying to do, do you? This is what you said:

After everything, everyone is marshaling together to get this deal through; the media, the cabinet, cross party MPs. It's going to go through isn't it?  How on earth did we get from 2 weeks ago to here?

Which sounded like rhetorical questions to me. But you know, it's fine. It's fine.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 10, 2018, 03:44:16 PM
YES! NO DEAL BREXIT! BRING IT ON CUNTS
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Dr Trouser on December 10, 2018, 03:45:08 PM
she has listened.

Not sure to what, but she HAS listened, ok?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 10, 2018, 03:46:45 PM
Yes, and that counts too. Shithousery for good is still shithousery.

Funny though.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on December 10, 2018, 03:48:52 PM
she has listened.

Not sure to what, but she HAS listened, ok?

This is the problem isn't it? She can't say

Quote from: MAAAAY
Those MPs who disagree with this solution need to deliver an alternative.

whilst refusing to reach out across the house, whilst instantly dismissing (as she did during those three days of utter torture last week) everyone else's suggestions.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Dr Trouser on December 10, 2018, 03:49:45 PM
Jeremy Corbyn has replaced the female front bench with DoomLord - it's a look I approve of.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 10, 2018, 03:50:20 PM
Corbyn being disingenuous again about his magical ability to negotiate a deal with Brussels that would be significantly better than May's and somehow please everyone and pass in the house. No such deal exists and he's going to need to change his position on this sharpish as we reach the crunch.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 10, 2018, 03:53:12 PM
May getting a bollocking from the speaker now. Lovely stuff.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Dr Trouser on December 10, 2018, 03:55:51 PM
Ha Ha Bercow must really hate her

edit: he painted her into a corner but now Ken Clarke is guffing on about nothing in particular
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 10, 2018, 03:57:34 PM
Is she just going to ignore him? Amazing.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Dr Trouser on December 10, 2018, 03:59:31 PM
a 16 year old girl just called her a 'pathetic coward'
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Funcrusher on December 10, 2018, 04:00:56 PM
Is she just going to ignore him?

Looks like it.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 10, 2018, 04:00:56 PM
Bercow's intervention might swing a vote here.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 10, 2018, 04:02:06 PM
Strong words from Bercow...

No wonder they were trying to get rid of him on all that bullying bullshit.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: thraxx on December 10, 2018, 04:02:58 PM
Is she just going to ignore him? Amazing.

I missed that bit can someone tell me what happened?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 10, 2018, 04:04:01 PM
Bercow said it was deeply discourteous to delay the vote after all the debates and assurences it would go ahead, and the right thing to do would be to have a vote on delaying.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Dr Trouser on December 10, 2018, 04:04:11 PM
Bercow suggesting they should vote on the vote as not to do so would be anti-democratic
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 10, 2018, 04:04:46 PM
I missed that bit can someone tell me what happened?

https://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/73fe76a9-f5bf-41a1-bcbc-f75f3d3d5168

15:51:40
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Thomas on December 10, 2018, 04:05:06 PM
Asking as a layman trying to keep up, what would it now take to trigger a vote (on tomorrow's vote) today? Just for a minister to stand up and put it forward?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: thraxx on December 10, 2018, 04:06:26 PM

Oh no not CASH.  The most verbose person in the House.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on December 10, 2018, 04:09:35 PM
Corbyn being disingenuous again about his magical ability to negotiate a deal with Brussels that would be significantly better than May's and somehow please everyone and pass in the house. No such deal exists and he's going to need to change his position on this sharpish as we reach the crunch.

Why? He will either 1) never have to do anything anyway 2) or can use a general election to champion a people's vote

Corbyn doesn't have to do shit except watch the Tories implode, occasionally twisting the knife.

Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: jobotic on December 10, 2018, 04:10:07 PM
So is it true that the later she can string this out for the more of a chance there is of a no deal hedge fund dream brexit?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 10, 2018, 04:10:26 PM
This whole backstop issue still seems like a false premise to me when all parties have said pretty categorically that there will be no hard border in Ireland.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on December 10, 2018, 04:11:11 PM
This whole backstop issue still seems like a false premise to me when all parties have said pretty categorically that there will be no hard border in Ireland.

I DON'T THINK YOU HAVE EVER SAID THIS BEFORE AT ANY POINT
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 10, 2018, 04:12:11 PM
Why? He will either 1) never have to do anything anyway 2) or can use a general election to champion a people's vote

Corbyn doesn't have to do shit except watch the Tories implode, occasionally twisting the knife.


If what he says he wants to happen happens - a general election, they win and they take over and 'renegotiate a better deal' he's going to be in deep shit as he's not getting much more than what May has. And we'd be right back here where we are today.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 10, 2018, 04:12:44 PM
This whole backstop issue still seems like a false premise to me when all parties have said pretty categorically that there will be no hard border in Ireland.

Yes, because of the backstop. If we leave the customs union then we either leave NI half in the EU or there is a hard border. There are no other alternatives.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 10, 2018, 04:12:52 PM
This whole backstop issue still seems like a false premise to me when all parties have said pretty categorically that there will be no hard border in Ireland.

Biggy: pull your socks up. Soros is obviously pumping money into problematising a hard border in Ireland.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 10, 2018, 04:14:38 PM
Yes, because of the backstop. If we leave the customs union then we either leave NI half in the EU or there is a hard border. There are no other alternatives.


That's not what the Irish PM thinks though is it?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Dr Trouser on December 10, 2018, 04:16:18 PM
Can we all stop talking about the politics of this and just revel in the sheer fucktarditry as we watch our government dissolve in front of our eyes.

Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 10, 2018, 04:17:18 PM
Not that it has ever been but May’s position is not credible. The Guardian is quoting her as merely seeking ‘further reassurances’ from the EU.

That’s pointless. If there isn’t anything legally binding then all the reassurances in the world mean nothing.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Thomas on December 10, 2018, 04:17:32 PM
'Swift exit from Brexit'. Freudian second referendum.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on December 10, 2018, 04:18:36 PM

If what he says he wants to happen happens - a general election, they win and they take over and 'renegotiate a better deal' he's going to be in deep shit as he's not getting much more than what May has. And we'd be right back here where we are today.

But it doesn't matter even it were true (which it isn't) and Corbyn knows it doesn't matter because Labour haven't ruled out a People's Vote. The emphasis of that vote is what will drive the final Brexit position both in the UK, in the commons and in the EU.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Funcrusher on December 10, 2018, 04:18:51 PM
I'd forgotten that David Davis existed.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Norton Canes on December 10, 2018, 04:19:58 PM
Theresa says: "Nothing should be off the table - but everyone should be clear that issues may be reopened."

How can she make it more clear, people?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: thraxx on December 10, 2018, 04:20:11 PM
https://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/73fe76a9-f5bf-41a1-bcbc-f75f3d3d5168

15:51:40

Right ho.  Shame that he seems to have been completely ignored.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 10, 2018, 04:21:34 PM
May is going to push this vote as close to the deadline of late January as she can so that it becomes a stark choice between no deal Brexit and her shit sandwich.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Dr Trouser on December 10, 2018, 04:22:44 PM
May is going to push this vote as close to the deadline of late January as she can so that it becomes a stark choice between no deal Brexit and her shit sandwich.

That's a long way off, it would be great to see her try though as it would mean more of this TV every week!
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 10, 2018, 04:24:57 PM
Seems to me that you can withdraw A50 on Mar 18th.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Dr Trouser on December 10, 2018, 04:25:47 PM
When I was a 12 year old commodore 64 addict in Nottingham, I used to look forward to central news in the evening so I could watch Anna Soubry as she made me feel all funny.

Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 10, 2018, 04:26:43 PM
Sorry I've had to report that. No-one should have to read that.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 10, 2018, 04:28:21 PM
Seems to me that you can withdraw A50 on Mar 18th.

Yeah, but if May can force her deal through then she can survive (for the moment anyway) and the issue doesn’t come up.

If she does try that tactic I don’t think it will work but what options does she have left?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on December 10, 2018, 04:29:41 PM
Yeah, but if May can force her deal through then she can survive (for the moment anyway) and the issue doesn’t come up.

If she does try that tactic I don’t think it will work but what options does she have left?

Fuck out of public life and go and enjoy her husband's blood money?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 10, 2018, 04:30:59 PM
If she hasn’t done it in the endless months since she was humiliated at the general election what makes you think she’ll do it now?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: jobotic on December 10, 2018, 04:33:02 PM
I like how Cable has said the Lib Dems will back a vote of no confidence and no one's arsed.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: greencalx on December 10, 2018, 04:34:30 PM
All the small parties are saying Labour should call a no-confidence vote. But since the DUP have said they would support a confidence motion, it would pass. So what would be the point in that?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on December 10, 2018, 04:35:32 PM
Quote
"I spoke to a number of EU leaders over the weekend, and in advance of the European council I will go to see my counterparts in other member states and the leadership of the council and the commission.

I will discuss with them the clear concerns that this House has expressed."

You mean like when you visited them after Chequers and they all saw through your divide and conquer bollocks and told you to fucking do one?

Their hands are as much tied by the Article 50 process as ours. It was agreed before talks started; we talk about Ireland now so that neither party can use the Good Friday Agreement as a weapon during the future relationship negotiations.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: finnquark on December 10, 2018, 04:38:32 PM
banana republic.

hideous, disgusting, smarmy, smug display from this appalling woman. fuck off. the slow destruction of democracy in this country whilst she fucks about. natural party of government.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 10, 2018, 04:41:58 PM
The Guardian is quoting the House of Commons official twitter feed. That says the 21st January date no longer applies since May made the statement that the Withdrawal Agreement has been agreed.

So that means a vote can be delayed into March, and if they wait until then there is no time for Plan B. If May is still in charge she won’t ask for an extension.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 10, 2018, 04:44:26 PM
https://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/73fe76a9-f5bf-41a1-bcbc-f75f3d3d5168

15:51:40

Jesus she looked close to tears there. Desperate, feeble.

edit: I mean just before this actually, with the jibe about 'the front bench of the labour party' being more uncertain than her deal (?)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: finnquark on December 10, 2018, 04:48:23 PM
This is a disgrace. May sat there surrounded her Praetorian Guard whilst the Tory grandees let her play infinite politics. What a load of bollocks. Where are the men in grey suits for fucks sake.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 10, 2018, 04:50:38 PM
But it doesn't matter even it were true (which it isn't) and Corbyn knows it doesn't matter because Labour haven't ruled out a People's Vote. The emphasis of that vote is what will drive the final Brexit position both in the UK, in the commons and in the EU.


That shows a misplaced faith in a people's vote try again referendum to magically solve the issue and get the politicians off the hook.


As for may if her plan really is to hold out till March and effectively strongarm everyone into voting for her deal I'm pretty sure there'll be a no confidence motion before she gets anywhere close.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 10, 2018, 04:50:58 PM
She sounds at the end of her tether. Teetering on the brink of a full Glenn Cullen. Go. Push her over the edge.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: thraxx on December 10, 2018, 04:58:33 PM

Well done Sven Goran Eriksen on getting down to brass tacks; how will she tackle the adjournment of the vote outlined by the speaker, and will he bring David Beckham, and Michael Owen into the 23 man negotiating squad.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Funcrusher on December 10, 2018, 04:59:49 PM
Well done Sven Goran Eriksen on getting down to brass tacks; how will she tackle the adjournment of the vote outlined by the speaker, and will he bring David Beckham, and Michael Owen into the 23 man negotiating squad.

And she has totally avoided answering the question.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 10, 2018, 05:00:43 PM
Loving the weary sighs between questions from, presumably, Bercow.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: finnquark on December 10, 2018, 05:02:16 PM
Well done Sven Goran Eriksen on getting down to brass tacks; how will she tackle the adjournment of the vote outlined by the speaker, and will he bring David Beckham, and Michael Owen into the 23 man negotiating squad.

Well I think what is important is putting together a squad that represents the whole country, and gets the best tournament results for the whole country. And if that means looking again at whether Jonathan Woodgate should go to the world cup, that's what this government will do.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 10, 2018, 05:02:21 PM
All the small parties are saying Labour should call a no-confidence vote. But since the DUP have said they would support a confidence motion, it would pass. So what would be the point in that?

a) to show the DUP that they're ready when everyone else is;
b) to put pressure on Labour and make them look like they're in the way too.

If the DUP get a sniff that they're going to be bounced into something by stalling tactics, they'll join a No Confidence vote. Nick Brown will be carefully cultivating them towards this end, I'm sure.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: thraxx on December 10, 2018, 05:02:29 PM
And she has totally avoided answering the question.

How is this possible?  Surely every MP should stand up and ask the question until she answers it.  This is the weakness in what she has done today.

Better still, why hasn't an MP, any MP gone out and lodged the motion that Bercow said they could...?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 10, 2018, 05:06:55 PM
How is this possible?  Surely every MP should stand up and ask the question until she answers it.  This is the weakness in what she has done today.

Better still, why hasn't an MP, any MP gone out and lodged the motion that Bercow said they could...?

I think he suggested a minister should do it.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Funcrusher on December 10, 2018, 05:08:35 PM
How is this possible?  Surely every MP should stand up and ask the question until she answers it.  This is the weakness in what she has done today.

Better still, why hasn't an MP, any MP gone out and lodged the motion that Bercow said they could...?

I think it's only a minister that can do it.

This is utterly tiresome. MPs just windbagging and grinding their own axes when they should be lining up to crucify May for pointlessly postponing the vote. She just replies with 'we have listened' and 'I am being clear'. No attempt to establish when a vote will happen, nothing. Utter waste of time.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 10, 2018, 05:10:50 PM
Kicking the problem down the road. It’s May’s answer to everything.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: greencalx on December 10, 2018, 05:13:41 PM
a) to show the DUP that they're ready when everyone else is;
b) to put pressure on Labour and make them look like they're in the way too.

If the DUP get a sniff that they're going to be bounced into something by stalling tactics, they'll join a No Confidence vote. Nick Brown will be carefully cultivating them towards this end, I'm sure.

Yeah, I had thought of (b) - that is, just another vector in the "useless opposition" attack. But isn't it obvious that if it came to it, all the opposition parties bar the DUP would vote against a confidence motion?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Funcrusher on December 10, 2018, 05:14:29 PM
May asked question - we can't say when, until we have consulted we can't give a date. Just laughable. One clown after another asking shouldn't she have a people's vote, to which she gives the same 'no, the people have spoken' broken record. Can these idiots not see that running down the clock evaporates any chance of a peoples vote. The vote should be happening as planned, they are ducking actual parliamentary process
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: finnquark on December 10, 2018, 05:16:17 PM
You're forgetting how upset they all are that their lovely, polished speeches will no longer be in Hansard. They're undoubtedly very dazzled and upset.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Thomas on December 10, 2018, 05:18:32 PM
I wish this lot would stop taking my will into account and ask her some fresh questions.

Where's the minister-to-the-rescue to act on Bercow's receding suggestion?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: thraxx on December 10, 2018, 05:20:17 PM

Mike Gapes.

GAPESY!

GAPES!

Gapes...
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on December 10, 2018, 05:21:12 PM
That's not what the Irish PM thinks though is it?
No one is going to announce their intention to violate the peace agreement.

Not having a trade agreement in place means that the UK and the member states of the EU are stuck having to choose between violating the WTO treaty and violating the peace agreement. (And in Ireland's case, violating the treaties that underpin its status a member state, I guess).

The EU can probably get away with violating the WTO treaty and will understand Ireland's predicament. It will be recognised that they have had this situation forced upon them. (I suppose there are some possible issues here with citizens of EU opening court cases?)

Meanwhile Global Britain launches itself on to the world stage as a state unable to abide by basic international agreements. You'd hope that would be by violating the WTO treaty, but I imagine that depends on exactly what Government we find ourselves with.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: jobotic on December 10, 2018, 05:23:15 PM
Hannah Bardell seems suitably arsey.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 10, 2018, 05:26:19 PM
No one is going to announce their intention to violate the peace agreement.

Not having a trade agreement in place means that the UK and the member states of the EU are stuck having to choose between violating the WTO treaty and violating the peace agreement. (And in Ireland's case, violating the treaties that underpin its status a member state, I guess).

The EU can probably get away with violating the WTO treaty and will understand Ireland's predicament. It will be recognised that they have had this situation forced upon them. (I suppose there are some possible issues here with citizens of EU opening court cases?)

Meanwhile Global Britain launches itself on to the world stage as a state unable to abide by basic international agreements. You'd hope that would be by violating the WTO treaty, but I imagine that depends on exactly what Government we find ourselves with.


What rules would the uk be breaking if there is a no deal? Wouldn't it be Ireland that has to break the rules? I can't say I actually understand the Irish PMs position but he sounds pretty certain about it to.me.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 10, 2018, 05:28:08 PM
Mike Gapes.

GAPESY!

GAPES!

Gapes...


(https://dvparty.uk/connect/media/reviews/photos/original/42/6f/7a/1165-mike-gapes-88-1515148408.jpg)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Funcrusher on December 10, 2018, 05:29:32 PM
So with 15 or so weeks left until we leave the EU, the so called meaningful vote has been postponed indefinitely, not even a vague indication of when it will take place, and no one seems much bothered. A few extra 'reassurances' will almost certainly make fuck all difference and they'll still lose, but who knows how long will then be left to decide how to deal with this inevitable mess.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 10, 2018, 05:32:10 PM

What rules would the uk be breaking if there is a no deal? Wouldn't it be Ireland that has to break the rules? I can't say I actually understand the Irish PMs position but he sounds pretty certain about it to.me.

One last time Biggy, then take it to the Brexit thread please.

If we hard brexit then there will have to be a hard border. Or we can leave NI half in the EU and have a border in the Irish Sea.

If we soft brexit then there is no way to leave the customs union without either leaving NI half in the EU or having a hard border. The backstop forces us into the customs union until all sides achieve a solution. The fact of the matter is there is no clear solution.

If we just go 'fuck it' and have no border there while leaving the customs union we leave ourselves open to being sued by, for instance, the US under WTO rules as Ireland would have unfair access to our markets.

It's easy to say you don't want to have a hard border, but actually achieving it while allowing us to fully leave the EU might be impossible. Not if you want to have the country stay intact that is.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on December 10, 2018, 05:33:53 PM
The Irish Government's position is, I suggest, that it will violate its commitments to fellow members of the EU's Customs Union in order to avoid a hard border. (The other member states will recognise, of course, that this has been forced on Ireland by the UK. But - like I say - I imagine there's the possibility of, for example, French farmers suing the Irish government over this. )

I suppose this also places the whole of the EU in violation of WTO rules, but again the circumstances for the member states will be extenuating. (And, pragmatically, the sizes of the EU and the UK makes this less of a concern anyway.)

As a WTO member, we would be compelled to introduce customs checks, tariffs and regulatory barriers to the EU at a level that we impose for the rest of world. (The last of these is arguably something we can fiddle in the short-term without getting anyone else too irritated. The first two, I suggest, are not.)

Quote
as Ireland would have unfair access to our markets.
And the rest of the EU, of course, and anyone with a trade agreement with the EU.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 10, 2018, 05:34:35 PM
So with 15 or so weeks left until we leave the EU, the so called meaningful vote has been postponed indefinitely, not even a vague indication of when it will take place, and no one seems much bothered. A few extra 'reassurances' will almost certainly make fuck all difference and they'll still lose, but who knows how long will then be left to decide how to deal with this inevitable mess.

May's last gasp gamble seems to be 'not enough to allow anything else to be negotiated so forcing her deal through'.

She has to go now. Unfortunately her party's MPs are as inept as her.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Captain Z on December 10, 2018, 05:35:01 PM
Well I think what is important is putting together a squad that represents the whole country, and gets the best tournament results for the whole country. And if that means looking again at whether Jonathan Woodgate should go to the world cup, that's what this government will do.

WE HAD A TOURNAMENT IN 2016

THE TEAM DECIDED TO LEAVE

RESPECT THAT RESULT

END OFF
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 10, 2018, 05:35:26 PM
I suppose we're ultimately in the same position, if they had the vote and may lost, presuming she could cling on, she would still  have had to go to the EU and try and get some concessions and come back and be defeated again.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cloud on December 10, 2018, 05:35:59 PM
Got to laugh at how long these threads have been going.  She clings on like shit to a blanket

I think she could literally go and shoot someone on Oxford Street and still not face a vote of no confidence
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 10, 2018, 05:39:26 PM
I suppose we're ultimately in the same position, if they had the vote and may lost, presuming she could cling on, she would still  have had to go to the EU and try and get some concessions and come back and be defeated again.

That's true. Though the one hope was a really massive defeat might finally get her to quit, or more likely removed. Now she staggers on into 2019. Who thought that was possible on election night last year?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Funcrusher on December 10, 2018, 05:45:34 PM
From The Guardian:

Looks like we could be in this for the long haul. In Downing Street briefing just now there were no guarantees of a vote before xmas, indeed no guarantees of one in January.

The utter fucking shambles of this whole process. The principle that operated when Cameron decided on having a referendum has been consistently followed to be fair - their is no limit to the level destruction of this country that can be wrought in order to preserve the Conservative Party and play out its decades long insane obsessional bickering over Europe. Nothing else matters.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on December 10, 2018, 05:51:42 PM
I have a very limited and very grudging respect for how successfully they've managed to drag this out without an actual implosion, particularly given the fuck-up of calling a General Election in 2017 with next-to-no manifesto other than "how about a death tax lottery for the middle classes?"
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Funcrusher on December 10, 2018, 05:57:31 PM
The benches now look about 2/3 empty. So much for democracy.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on December 10, 2018, 05:59:58 PM
From The Guardian:

Looks like we could be in this for the long haul. In Downing Street briefing just now there were no guarantees of a vote before xmas, indeed no guarantees of one in January.

The utter fucking shambles of this whole process. The principle that operated when Cameron decided on having a referendum has been consistently followed to be fair - their is no limit to the level destruction of this country that can be wrought in order to preserve the Conservative Party and play out its decades long insane obsessional bickering over Europe. Nothing else matters.

I predicted this outcome about 1,000 pages back. The only certainty in the article 50 process is that at the end of two years, we exit, deal or not. It's the only leverage she's ever had so I'm not surprised she's decided to go there. There are other options, of course, but this is the only one the house doesn't have to agree on.

I have a very limited and very grudging respect for how successfully they've managed to drag this out without an actual implosion, particularly given the fuck-up of calling a General Election in 2017 with next-to-no manifesto other than "how about a death tax lottery for the middle classes?"

The fixed term parliament has effectively delivered a US-style situation where government can effectively shut down in a stalemate and the incumbent has no incentive to break the deadlock. Why the fuck Nick Clegg didn't insist that the Fixed Term ended with the coalition, I don't know. No, wait, yeah, it's cos he was a short sighted, self-serving moron who signed his own death warrant.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 10, 2018, 06:02:08 PM
The Irish Government's position is, I suggest, that it will violate its commitments to fellow members of the EU's Customs Union in order to avoid a hard border. (The other member states will recognise, of course, that this has been forced on Ireland by the UK. But - like I say - I imagine there's the possibility of, for example, French farmers suing the Irish government over this. )

I suppose this also places the whole of the EU in violation of WTO rules, but again the circumstances for the member states will be extenuating. (And, pragmatically, the sizes of the EU and the UK makes this less of a concern anyway.)

As a WTO member, we would be compelled to introduce customs checks, tariffs and regulatory barriers to the EU at a level that we impose for the rest of world. (The last of these is arguably something we can fiddle in the short-term without getting anyone else too irritated. The first two, I suggest, are not.)
And the rest of the EU, of course, and anyone with a trade agreement with the EU.


I suppose as an advocate of breaking the rules were necessary, you'd agree that considering the complex historical and mitigating factors, and the fact the neither the EU or WTO would want to be seens forcing the dissolution of an internationally recognised and much prized peace treaty, that all parties would just have to accept it, or kick the can down the road as long as possible at least.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Funcrusher on December 10, 2018, 06:03:09 PM
Labour will not table a vote of no confidence until May finally has the vote, which could be February or any time.

Could be the moment that our elected officials definitively flushed the future of this country's economy down the shitter. Historic day.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 10, 2018, 06:04:04 PM
I can understand that though. She wouldn't lose, so it's largely pointless.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 10, 2018, 06:05:33 PM
I’m going to email my MP and ask him if he’s submitted a letter of no confidence yet and if not why not?

He’s John Redwood so there is a chance he has already.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 10, 2018, 06:06:01 PM
So is Corbyn's thinking not to have a no confidence vote now sound? A lot of his MPs seem quite unhappy about it.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Funcrusher on December 10, 2018, 06:06:21 PM
Definition of insanity - repeatedly asking 'will the Prime Minister agree with me that we need a people's vote', to be followed by 'as I have made clear in my previous answers'. What do you hope to achieve by this?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 10, 2018, 06:07:20 PM
The DUP would support her in a no confidence vote, and do you think any of the ambitious Tories want the job now? Or want to risk sparking a general election that returns Corbyn to power?

Quote
British politics has finally cut all links with normality and drifted off into absurdity. In the Commons a moment ago Labour’s Rupa Huq described the decision to call off the vote as an act of “premature parliamentary ejaculation”. In response, Theresa May said that, if Huq were to look carefully, she would see that May is not capable of premature ejaculation.

Fucking SIGH
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 10, 2018, 06:09:09 PM
TUSK confirms the EU aren't negotiating the deal, so what the shitty hell is the point of this whole farce? 'Facilitate ratification' merely means polish it up a bit with some meaningless promises doesn't it? It will not pass, quite obviously.

(https://i.imgur.com/k1FFBRS.png)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on December 10, 2018, 06:13:59 PM
I suppose as an advocate of breaking the rules were necessary, you'd agree that considering the complex historical and mitigating factors, and the fact the neither the EU or WTO would want to be seens forcing the dissolution of an internationally recognised and much prized peace treaty, that all parties would just have to accept it

However the UK, we're told, wants to seek trade agreements with this, that and every other country. This isn't about what "the WTO" wants, it's what the US and China and India and Brazil and Canada and so on want. No one's going to be forcing the "dissolution" of the peace agreement; Britain may choose to breach it for its own purposes (I think the most likely way this will happen is a border in the Irish Sea, not in Ireland, myself).

My point has always been that you can get away with breaking some rules when you're capable of demonstrating that you're mostly prepared to play along. Leaving the EU without being prepared to negotiate a replacement agreement and being - through our own decisions - unable to meet basic WTO rules and enact customs agreements isn't going to predispose anyone towards trust.

(As an aside, all this stuff about how awful the backstop is and how Britain has never let itself be bound by an agreement it can't withdraw from unilaterally - from Tories and Labour - is hideous.)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Funcrusher on December 10, 2018, 06:14:40 PM

Fucking SIGH

And that's been the level of most it. Bercow made it as clear as day that the correct procedure would be to have a vote on the postponement. If no minister would do it then so be it, but they should have been hammering the point like fuck that the vote should be now in order to leave time to deal with the consequences and that postponing it flies in the face of basic democracy and is insanely irresponsible and playing brinkmanship with real people's livelihoods. Labour have blown it.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on December 10, 2018, 06:16:01 PM
So is Corbyn's thinking not to have a no confidence vote now sound? A lot of his MPs seem quite unhappy about it.

If the opposition lost it - probable at this point - that's off the table until after March 29th by which point it would be a blunt instrument.

Part of me would like it to be put in this evening but I just don't see it passing.

Let it stumble on a little longer, possibly with more resignations to come, harrying them all the while, then call one if May doesn't put a deal before parliament by the first week of New Year (or whenever they return)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on December 10, 2018, 06:41:49 PM
It's a complete waste of time, but nevertheless a bit entertaining to see Leadsom repeatedly explaining that "tomorrow" doesn't mean "tomorrow".
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: TrenterPercenter on December 10, 2018, 06:59:57 PM
Labour have blown it.

Ooooh this looks bad for Corbyn...
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Funcrusher on December 10, 2018, 07:04:24 PM
Mike Gapes using the moving forward of the ivory bill to make an elephant in the room and Donald Tusk joke. This country is utterly doomed, isn't it?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Funcrusher on December 10, 2018, 07:05:48 PM
Ooooh this looks bad for Corbyn...

If I'm honest, I thought Corbs response this afternoon was a bit weak and not that well delivered.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: finnquark on December 10, 2018, 07:18:36 PM
I can understand that though. She wouldn't lose, so it's largely pointless.

Labour defeated multiple no confidence motions before finally losing in 1979. It's about putting pressure on the government, not winning immediately.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on December 10, 2018, 07:22:16 PM
As I said above - Labour could set the running on that by stating - you have x weeks to bring back a deal we can back or we will call a motion.

Tories may want to call Labour's bluff in that event but I bet they wouldn't.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: TrenterPercenter on December 10, 2018, 07:37:50 PM
If I'm honest, I thought Corbs response this afternoon was a bit weak and not that well delivered.

I didn't think he was at his best either but it is nothing to fret about, I mean it's not like if he had delivered a corker the Tories are going to go "Ok he's convinced me i'll vote my party out of government".
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: thraxx on December 10, 2018, 07:38:00 PM
The fact remains; why did not one of 600 MPs in the House not do what Bercow said they could do and force a vote on whether to postpone?  Where they already whipped not to before entering the chamber, or does not one of them have the balls to do it?  It was totally ignored.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: finnquark on December 10, 2018, 07:41:32 PM
Because the government have to move the motion to end the debate, which is then voted on.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 10, 2018, 07:51:55 PM
.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: greencalx on December 10, 2018, 08:12:18 PM
This parliamentary exchange is solid gold:

Pete Wishart (SNP) – How they can look this House in the eye and try to suggest, pretend that this is business as usual is quite extraordinary. Our constituents are watching this farce with bewilderment and bemusement with no idea how this country is being run and the leader of the House comes up with no way forward for all of this. We have now reached the single biggest political crisis since Suez with the biggest capitulation since Napoleon’s retreat from Moscow.

Andrea "Your Mum" Leadsom (Tory) – What this demonstrates is the prime minister has very carefully listened to the many hundreds of colleagues who have already expressed their grave concerns, myself included, in the issues around the backstop.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: olliebean on December 10, 2018, 08:13:18 PM
This fucking disgrace of a government needs to be gone, irrespective of the shambles they've made of Brexit. Is anything going to be done about them using public money to disseminate smears against Corbyn, or is that just going to be swept under the rug like every fucking other shitty corrupt thing they've done?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 10, 2018, 08:13:49 PM
The term “backstop” always makes me think of freshly delivered milk, for some reason.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: olliebean on December 10, 2018, 08:42:43 PM
The term “backstop” always makes me think of freshly delivered milk, for some reason.

Red top, silver top, gold top, backs top?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 10, 2018, 08:45:53 PM
Red top, silver top, gold top, backs top?

Maybe, or something about back doorstep?

Dunno.  Mind works in weird ways.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Funcrusher on December 10, 2018, 08:50:11 PM
Corbs now requesting an emergency debate on postponement of the vote.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 10, 2018, 08:51:38 PM
The term “backstop” always makes me think of freshly delivered milk, for some reason.


Reminds me of when I can't do a potty.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Funcrusher on December 10, 2018, 08:54:03 PM
Bercow allows a three hour debate for tomorrow.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Funcrusher on December 10, 2018, 08:55:26 PM
Someone just grabbed the mace.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Captain Z on December 10, 2018, 08:57:27 PM
They're all grabbing the mace by the time
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: greencalx on December 10, 2018, 09:01:27 PM
Corbs now requesting an emergency debate on postponement of the vote.

What can the outcome of this be?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: olliebean on December 10, 2018, 09:02:11 PM
So what does that mean? Are they going to vote on whether to postpone the vote?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Funcrusher on December 10, 2018, 09:08:20 PM
As far as I can understand, a Whip said 'tomorrow' so that means the vote is postponed. Corbs gets the debate on this. The DUP have apparently said they would support a censure motion if Corbs lays one.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 10, 2018, 09:08:42 PM
Corbs now requesting an emergency debate on postponement of the vote.

Oh, that’s put my mind at rest.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 10, 2018, 09:17:39 PM
Someone just grabbed the mace.

I must be a fucking clairvoyant.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 10, 2018, 09:19:49 PM
This has to be the gayest mace-grab in all the world. (https://twitter.com/dcakraemer/status/1072234234901860353)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: thraxx on December 10, 2018, 09:21:52 PM
This has to be the gayest mace-grab in all the world. (https://twitter.com/dcakraemer/status/1072234234901860353)

What is point grab the mace what is point?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: hamfist on December 10, 2018, 09:24:17 PM
What is point grab the mace what is point?

If you're not gonna hit someone with it, indeed - what is PIONT ?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 10, 2018, 09:25:59 PM
Its just a form of protest isn't it, presumably about May not giving parliament NUFF RESPECT.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 10, 2018, 09:26:35 PM
What is point grab the mace what is point?

There's only one person who can answer this: Ronalado, are you out there?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: thraxx on December 10, 2018, 09:28:50 PM

First this shit today in parliament and now Everton have thrown away their lead.  THE WORST DAY EVER.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Fabian Thomsett on December 10, 2018, 09:29:54 PM
This has to be the gayest mace-grab in all the world. (https://twitter.com/dcakraemer/status/1072234234901860353)

Wasn't as good as when McDonnell did it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdUcImZXhNg
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 10, 2018, 09:32:34 PM
Ohh man there's nothing funnier than a grown man trying to make off with a ceremonial mace from the 17th century.

Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: hamfist on December 10, 2018, 09:33:51 PM
Wasn't as good as when McDonnell did it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdUcImZXhNg

I guess they didn't film when Tarzan did it. I heard he ripped his shirt off and yelled "BANZAI".
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Blue Jam on December 10, 2018, 09:38:27 PM
This has to be the gayest mace-grab in all the world. (https://twitter.com/dcakraemer/status/1072234234901860353)

I dunno, I imagined him going all Legend Gary and swinging it round his head going "DO YOU FACKIN' WANT SOME?"
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: mothman on December 10, 2018, 09:41:41 PM
I dunno, I imagined him going all Legend Jimmy and swinging it round his head going "DO YOU FACKIN' WANT SOME?"

He’s Scottish, so I fixed that for you.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cloud on December 10, 2018, 09:42:52 PM
What can the outcome of this be?

bad for Corbyn
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 10, 2018, 09:47:21 PM
This has to be the gayest mace-grab in all the world. (https://twitter.com/dcakraemer/status/1072234234901860353)

"Mate you can't keep that; give it back please."

"Oh yarss, sorry your honour."
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Sin Agog on December 10, 2018, 09:51:24 PM
Macy Gay?

My MP, by the way.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Johnny Yesno on December 10, 2018, 10:01:02 PM
Labour have blown it.

This has to be the gayest mace-grab in all the world. (https://twitter.com/dcakraemer/status/1072234234901860353)

Quote from: SpinDoctor GTTO #CWRA @LeftwingPoet
27m27 minutes ago
Replying to @dcakraemer @lloyd_rm

Corbyn has secured an Emergency Debate on @theresa_may 's Brexit deal.
If this is won, she will be forced to put her deal to Parliament to Vote on.
#VoteMayDown
Corbyn plays a blinder
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Funcrusher on December 10, 2018, 10:03:11 PM
Is it the case that if Corbyn wins the debate then a vote will be forced?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 10, 2018, 10:03:54 PM
Is it the case that if Corbyn wins the debate then a vote will be forced?

Yes, and the mace is sliced up and everyone gets a piece each in some cake.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: thraxx on December 10, 2018, 10:04:49 PM
Is it the case that if Corbyn wins the debate then a vote will be forced?

Even if his debate is forced down, chops to him.  He had to try.  But he should have done it there and then when May was on the despatch.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Fabian Thomsett on December 10, 2018, 10:05:33 PM
Heseltine - King of Mace Grabbing

Quote
As soon as the whips announced that a Government majority had been achieved by 304 votes to 303, Labour MPs stood up and began to sing The Red Flag.

As they reached the words "We'll keep the red flag flying here," Mr Michael Heseltine, Tory spokesman at the conclusion of the debate, jumped up and seized the mace from its rack beneath the Speaker's Chair. As he waved it aggressively towards the Labour Benches, his Shadow Cabinet colleague Mr James Prior wrested it from his hands and replaced it in its rack the wrong way round.

https://www.theguardian.com/century/1970-1979/Story/0,,106906,00.html
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Funcrusher on December 10, 2018, 10:06:06 PM
My understanding is that the best they can get is a censure.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: thraxx on December 10, 2018, 10:06:20 PM
I wish the mace grabber had held it aloft, shouted 'by the lack of power of Mayskull', stuffed the mace up his arse and stumped round the chamber neighing like a horse.  It would have been worth his 5 day suspension to see that.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: thraxx on December 10, 2018, 10:07:06 PM
My understanding is that the best they can get is a censure.

What is... censure?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: finnquark on December 10, 2018, 10:07:24 PM
My understanding is that the best they can get is a censure.

Yeah it's non-binding.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: thraxx on December 10, 2018, 10:07:54 PM
Heseltine - King of Mace Grabbing

https://www.theguardian.com/century/1970-1979/Story/0,,106906,00.html

Was Heseltine a 'good' Tory I can't remember?  I seem to recall him getting sacked because he kept calling out Thatcher on shit.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Thursday on December 10, 2018, 10:13:22 PM
Can't believe Legend Gary grabbed the mace! That's the one thing you don't do. Everyone knows you don't grab the mace. What a donut!
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 10, 2018, 10:16:13 PM
Heseltine - King of Mace Grabbing

https://www.theguardian.com/century/1970-1979/Story/0,,106906,00.html

Quote
Against an unprecedented background of fisticuffs, the singing of the Red Flag and a Conservative attempt to run away with the mace, the Government sneaked home to an unprecedented victory of one vote in its battle to overrule an attempt to destroy its nationalisation plans for the shipbuilding industry.

Whatever became of the shipbuilding industry?  You never hear of it these days, do you.  A whole industry of that.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: thraxx on December 10, 2018, 10:20:11 PM
Whatever became of the shipbuilding industry?  You never hear of it these days, do you.  A whole industry of that.

A lot of good bhoys loast their livlihoods, bhoys wi a trade.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: græskar on December 10, 2018, 10:25:34 PM
I've never heard of the mace before. I love these arcane medieval rituals
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: mothman on December 10, 2018, 10:25:48 PM
Yes, and the mace is sliced up and everyone gets a piece each in some cake.

Mace? No, no, oh dear me, no. Nutmeg, maybe. Cinnamon. Not mace.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: greencalx on December 10, 2018, 10:31:16 PM
I've never heard of the mace before. I love these arcane medieval rituals

I was once part of a ceremony that involved two maces and a sword.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 10, 2018, 10:33:24 PM
I was once part of a ceremony that involved two maces and a sword.



All 3 had dildos sellotaped to the end though didn't they?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 10, 2018, 10:38:57 PM
Mace? No, no, oh dear me, no. Nutmeg, maybe. Cinnamon. Not mace.

You’ll get what you’re given.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: mothman on December 10, 2018, 10:48:14 PM
Shan’t.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: gib on December 10, 2018, 11:01:59 PM
Was Heseltine a 'good' Tory I can't remember?  I seem to recall him getting sacked because he kept calling out Thatcher on shit.

Quote
Heseltine favoured privatisation of state owned industries, a novel idea in 1979 as the Conservatives were initially only proposing to denationalise the industries nationalised by Labour in the 1970s

fuck him

Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: ajsmith2 on December 10, 2018, 11:17:30 PM
By the power of Mayskull.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: studpuppet on December 10, 2018, 11:28:13 PM
I've never heard of the mace before. I love these arcane medieval rituals

Best bit about the mace, is that the Queen calls the Speaker every day Parliament is in session and asks, "Where is the mace?" to which the Speaker replies, "The mace is in place." Dr. Seuss does democracy...
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 10, 2018, 11:43:28 PM
By the power of Mayskull.

This calls for a photoshop, clearly.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Sherman Krank on December 11, 2018, 12:03:08 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/h67OAzn.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/JUKcisw.jpg)

Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 11, 2018, 12:23:27 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/JUKcisw.jpg)

Gobstoppers around her neck?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Pearly-Dewdrops Drops on December 11, 2018, 12:30:02 AM
As far as mace grabs go that was less exciting than I was hoping.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: garnish on December 11, 2018, 12:40:08 AM
I liked it when everyone around him was shocked and yelled "watch out he's got a shoot-er"
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Urinal Cake on December 11, 2018, 05:15:47 AM
How long till her Maj steps in?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 11, 2018, 06:33:19 AM
We're fast reaching the point of this constitutional crisis where the Queen is obliged to wrestle the prime minister and take over until a new government can be formed.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Flouncer on December 11, 2018, 06:35:14 AM
I liked it when everyone around him was shocked and yelled "watch out he's got a shoot-er"

The best bit was when the little grey haired woman tried to take it away from him and he twatted her with it, then held it aloft triumphantly as he stood over her broken body.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 11, 2018, 07:31:47 AM
How long till her Maj steps in?

Not long.  It’ll cut to her without warning, as well; her pyjamas will be half on and she’ll be rushing a poached egg.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: greenman on December 11, 2018, 07:52:18 AM
Power should clearly have passed down though the Lawson family instead, more negotiating power than May standing on the white cliffs in tartan suit and a nappy.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on December 11, 2018, 08:00:22 AM
We're fast reaching the point of this constitutional crisis where the Queen is obliged to wrestle the prime minister and take over until a new government can be formed.

Some kind of drubbing incident?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 11, 2018, 08:01:06 AM
Power should clearly have passed down though the Lawson family instead, more negotiating power than May standing on the white cliffs in tartan suit and a nappy.

Or even Les Dawson’s family would have been fine.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 11, 2018, 08:05:28 AM
Lesbian Dawson as they call him.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 11, 2018, 08:44:53 AM
Quote
Juncker latest: “We have achieved the best deal possible. It’s the only deal possible. There is no room whatsoever for further renegotiation. But of course...there’s room enough to give further clarification & further interpretation without opening the WA. This will not happen”
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 11, 2018, 08:58:20 AM
What if May gets her tits oot?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 11, 2018, 08:59:36 AM
What if May gets her tits oot?

How do you know she doesn't already? Maybe that's why this is the best deal we can get—it's strictly limited by the quality of the tits on offer to Juncker.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on December 11, 2018, 09:54:04 AM
If they offer great deals based on how big the pair of tits we send to negotiate are, David Davis and Dominic Raab should have netted us the greatest deal in history!

Producers of Have I Got News For You? should know that this brilliant, cutting satire is available for purchase from my agent.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 11, 2018, 09:56:50 AM
Boris Johnson's mams are bigger than May's, maybe we should lock him in a room with Juncker until something can be 'sorted out'?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Buelligan on December 11, 2018, 10:15:07 AM
(That's enough sexism thanks.  Ed.)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Norton Canes on December 11, 2018, 10:17:53 AM
What if May gets her tits oot?

The Remain tit or the Leave tit?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 11, 2018, 10:18:22 AM
Breastit

(3 level joke!)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 11, 2018, 11:45:31 AM
Quote
Theresa May's spokesman says the Prime Minister will bring her Brexit deal back to the House of Commons "before 21 January"

And why should we believe this again?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Captain Z on December 11, 2018, 11:55:19 AM
Was well up for this big Brexit vote today, feeling quite deflated now.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: EOLAN on December 11, 2018, 11:56:26 AM
Obvious comparisons were initially made with Thatcher; but this lady certainly seems to be into a lot of (U-)turning.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 11, 2018, 12:04:43 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DuFqqZZWwAEaEHT.jpg)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 11, 2018, 12:11:59 PM
Interesting timing on this report - https://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/public-administration-and-constitutional-affairs-committee/news-parliament-2017/confidence-motions-fixed-term-parliament-act-report-published-17-19/

Quote
A report published today by the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee advises that Parliament’s power to remove the authority to govern through a no confidence motion has been unaffected by the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on December 11, 2018, 12:15:14 PM
This lady IS for gurning:

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/lynRRW2FdF0/hqdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 11, 2018, 12:16:20 PM
There should be a No Confidence vote because, well, yesterday.

It won’t pass but it highlights May’s incompetence.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Rich Uncle Skeleton on December 11, 2018, 12:20:32 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DuFqqZZWwAEaEHT.jpg)

"I have never felt more ashamed to be a Conservative"

Only now??
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 11, 2018, 12:26:28 PM
(http://i65.tinypic.com/169lsup.png)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Blumf on December 11, 2018, 12:29:55 PM
"I have never felt more ashamed to be a Conservative"

Only now??

"What kind of person is it who can do the most humiliating thing yet manage to show not one iota of humility?"

Er... a Tory?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: thraxx on December 11, 2018, 12:44:39 PM

Here we go, the debate on the vote is starting.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 11, 2018, 12:47:24 PM
Boy, aren’t they going to look stupid when May arrives home tomorrow with the backstop completely removed and a cast iron legal guarantee that we can not only have our cake, but eat it too.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 11, 2018, 12:55:02 PM
According to Stephen Bush in the New Statesman, whats happening with the SNP, greens, Lib Dems and Labour Remainers trying to get Corbyn to support a no confidence vote they know will be defeated is they're really trying to bounce him into supporting a 2nd referendum as their main position.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on December 11, 2018, 01:04:19 PM
No exit strategy...
https://twitter.com/SkyNewsPolitics/status/1072463780007809024?s=09
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 11, 2018, 01:15:35 PM
Her ability to take this abuse finally ran out. She was on the other side trying to keep the door shut.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on December 11, 2018, 01:18:47 PM
Her ability to take this abuse finally ran out. She was on the other side trying to keep the door shut.

Or stop any of those foreigners getting in...
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: danielreal2k on December 11, 2018, 01:41:33 PM
No exit strategy...
https://twitter.com/SkyNewsPolitics/status/1072463780007809024?s=09

She was probably simultaneously locking it while the driver was unlocking it.

Leave her in there. please for sake of christ.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 11, 2018, 01:51:59 PM
This is kind of scandalous in itself if its true - https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonardelli/theresa-may-told-eu-leaders-brexit-vote-pulled

Quote
Top European Union officials were told by Theresa May on Sunday that she intended to postpone the parliamentary vote on her Brexit deal, some 24 hours before she informed all her cabinet ministers, BuzzFeed News has learned.

Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on December 11, 2018, 01:53:10 PM
Is she trying to get sacked?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 11, 2018, 02:11:37 PM
Is she trying to get sacked?

Nothing else has worked so far. And to be fair, she’s tried hard.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 11, 2018, 02:14:53 PM
It did surprise me how quickly Merkel et al. managed to meet her. Clear the diary Wolfgang, Theresa will be coming tomorrow!
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: king_tubby on December 11, 2018, 02:15:57 PM
Woke Soubz says she would support May in the event of a no confidence vote.

AS EXPECTED.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 11, 2018, 02:17:53 PM
Why is he even called Woke?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 11, 2018, 02:19:17 PM
Woke Soubz says she would support May in the event of a no confidence vote.

AS EXPECTED.

Thought this was some Polish EU politician.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on December 11, 2018, 02:22:03 PM
Woke Soubz says she would support May in the event of a no confidence vote.

AS EXPECTED.

Considering how much she loathes May, that's quite a humiliating statement for Soubry to make.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: king_tubby on December 11, 2018, 02:22:56 PM
She loves her career more than she loathes May. Also she loves voting to impoverish people more than she loathes May.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: king_tubby on December 11, 2018, 02:24:12 PM
I mean, if there's a GE she's fucked, isn't she? Majority of less than 1,000.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 11, 2018, 02:25:04 PM
Only about half a dozen tories bothered to turn up to this emergency debate.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: king_tubby on December 11, 2018, 02:25:57 PM
When looking up the figures for the above, I was amused to see this former Broxtowe MP listed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Cocks

SEE MORE COCKS LOL
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on December 11, 2018, 02:26:08 PM
I mean, if there's a GE she's fucked, isn't she? Majority of less than 1,000.

Yep. I live in her constituency and I know she's got fuck all chance of returning again. She lost her comfortable-ish majority and her Cabinet job because of May's vanity power-grab.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Head Gardener on December 11, 2018, 02:34:01 PM
(https://66.media.tumblr.com/d1988f42b6b4df2a9f04e3deab99abcb/tumblr_phh2p9VG7B1qbiigxo1_500.jpg)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: thraxx on December 11, 2018, 02:57:46 PM

David Lidington.  Really really don't trust this bloke.  Wields far too much power from the shadows and is far too smug, over confident and arrogant.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 11, 2018, 03:07:42 PM
That may be, but he's right about Corbyn's fantasy position isn't he?


I really wish various contributors would stop going on about short term fluctuations in the markets though - 'the pound fell 2% yesterday, how can we go on like this...'. We can't run the country based on currency traders fuckchops.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: daf on December 11, 2018, 03:39:27 PM
David Lidington

. . . I presume?


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
(one for the teenagers!)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Jittlebags on December 11, 2018, 03:56:10 PM
SEE MORE COCKS LOL

Brother of Ophelia Minge.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Fambo Number Mive on December 11, 2018, 03:59:09 PM
Quote
The government has not suspended its controversial “golden visa” programme for wealthy foreign investors, despite a Home Office announcement last week stating that it had.

“The Tier 1 Investor visa is not currently suspended, however we remain committed to reforming the route,” a spokesperson for the department said on Tuesday.

“A further announcement will be made in due course.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/golden-visas-not-suspended-tier-1-investment-home-office-announcement-a8677826.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1544536475
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 11, 2018, 04:00:12 PM
Lots of speakers pointing out again that there will not be an Irish border whatever happens, meaning the backstop is a political ploy from May and the EU not get us to back their BRINO BODGE.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Jittlebags on December 11, 2018, 04:00:40 PM
Be great if she turned up to see Merkel in a yellow, backfiring clown's car, then the doors fall off just as she's about to get out.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 11, 2018, 04:02:43 PM
I bet Merkel feels some sympathy for her considering the total mess her government is in too. Seems to be a recurring theme in Europe at the moment, with Macron too? At least London isnt on fire I suppose.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 11, 2018, 04:05:37 PM
Why are they all so obsessed with arses?

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/375/cpsprodpb/0FCB/production/_104734040_77beee7a-8331-4c37-a3fd-99968bc2b6af.jpg)

Wantonly pinning his buttock there with their hands.  What for??
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 11, 2018, 04:09:51 PM
The usual footsie -

Quote
Confidence vote watch. I know it’s a dangerous game to play and Sir Graham is keeper of the list. But my ERG sources pretty confident now that 48 trigger been breached. Of course Sir Graham won’t announce while PM out of country - and we’ve been here before. But mood hardening
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 11, 2018, 04:10:34 PM
Why are they all so obsessed with arses?

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/375/cpsprodpb/0FCB/production/_104734040_77beee7a-8331-4c37-a3fd-99968bc2b6af.jpg)

Wantonly pinning his buttock there with their hands.  What for??


Looks like they have taken a buttock each.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on December 11, 2018, 04:13:45 PM
Why are they all so obsessed with arses?

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/375/cpsprodpb/0FCB/production/_104734040_77beee7a-8331-4c37-a3fd-99968bc2b6af.jpg)

Wantonly pinning his buttock there with their hands.  What for??

German hidden buttock agenda
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on December 11, 2018, 04:27:39 PM
meaning the backstop is a political ploy from May and the EU not get us to back their BRINO BODGE.
I'm not sure that makes any sense - the backstop doesn't put us in a BRINO situation, and it's easy enough to leave.

Indeed, if the alternative is violating WTO rules or the peace agreement, I don't see why it's any more of a problem to unilaterally and 'unlawfully' withdraw from the backstop.

(Edit: Noting that they're often in a world of their own anyway, it's interesting that the DUP see the backstop as a 'threat to the union', suggesting that they see a clear possibility of the Westminster government - unilaterally - withdrawing Britain from the backstop but leaving NI in it.)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Funcrusher on December 11, 2018, 04:40:50 PM
Woke Soubz says she would support May in the event of a no confidence vote.

AS EXPECTED.

She was openly mocking the Labour spokesman on Newsnight last night for not immediately launching a no confidence vote, while saying that she would vote for May. Ledge.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 11, 2018, 04:41:01 PM
The not easieness of leaving the backstop is one of the sticking points in Mays dealing it? But the realpolitik here is the very last thing that's going to break whatever occurs is the good Friday agreement and everyone involved knows it. The spectre of avoiding a hard border is a negotiating stance. If the spectre they were using to scare people with was 'breaking the rules' it would clearly have far less weight would it, at the advantage if being more honest.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 11, 2018, 04:43:22 PM
Ledge.

LINO.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on December 11, 2018, 05:06:12 PM
The not easieness of leaving the backstop is one of the sticking points in Mays dealing it? But the realpolitik here is the very last thing that's going to break whatever occurs is the good Friday agreement and everyone involved knows it. The spectre of avoiding a hard border is a negotiating stance. If the spectre they were using to scare people with was 'breaking the rules' it would clearly have far less weight would it, at the advantage if being more honest.

I think you should go to Belfast and outline that proposition. It might occur to you while doing so what a monstrous act of hand-waving it is to call the breach of an agreement that brought an end to four decades of civil war that saw their friends and family murdered, foreign troops on their streets, checkpoints and walls in their city, political imprisonment, and a paramilitary mafia take control of day-to law enforcement a 'negotiating stance'.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 11, 2018, 05:09:42 PM
I quite agree. Creating a red line out of something she knew could never happen was indeed a monstrous and cynical act of politicking.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Dr Trouser on December 11, 2018, 05:12:51 PM
Apparently they now have 48 letters of no confidence. Like they did a few weeks ago. And a few weeks before that.

Sigh.


edit: New Page New Letters of No Confidence
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 11, 2018, 05:14:19 PM
I bet they all begin "Dear Santa".
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 11, 2018, 05:18:39 PM
A christmas version of Theresa May would be Theresa Sleigh.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: ajsmith2 on December 11, 2018, 05:28:35 PM
Or Christmas Theresa.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 11, 2018, 05:29:35 PM
Nobody will ever be able to agree what the questions are, or the voting method of a 2nd referendum. Well be here for years.

Edit- not sure what I replied to there. It is a true statement though.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 11, 2018, 05:30:36 PM
1. In
2. Out
3. All about shaking
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 11, 2018, 05:31:14 PM
Or Christmas Theresa.

Or Cunt Santa.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Panbaams on December 11, 2018, 05:32:24 PM
David Lidington.  Really really don't trust this bloke.  Wields far too much power from the shadows and is far too smug, over confident and arrogant.

He's my MP. A suit full of bugger all (to borrow Ben Elton's phrase) who has mysteriously risen without a trace to effectively become the deputy prime minister. I'm sure that the smugness, over-confidence and arrogance would apply to any Tory MP who survived the Labour landslide in 1997 and holds a seat that's been Conservative for the best part of a century.

A century.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 11, 2018, 05:39:39 PM
The usual footsie -
Quote
Confidence vote watch. I know it’s a dangerous game to play and Sir Graham is keeper of the list. But my ERG sources pretty confident now that 48 trigger been breached. Of course Sir Graham won’t announce while PM out of country - and we’ve been here before. But mood hardening


Been burned too many times by the rebels inability to organise a piss-up in a brewery, but if the antics of the last 24 hours don't push them over the line literally nothing will.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Blumf on December 11, 2018, 05:42:13 PM
No exit strategy...
https://twitter.com/SkyNewsPolitics/status/1072463780007809024?s=09

Not the first time a German car has locked a politician inside itself:

https://www.smh.com.au/technology/computer-glitch-traps-thai-minister-in-bmw-20030513-gdgr7n.html
Quote
While on the way to an important speech, Thailand's finance minister got locked inside his luxury car yesterday because of an onboard computer malfunction and had to signal someone to smash a window for him to crawl out.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on December 11, 2018, 05:48:34 PM
I do wonder why anyone would be so sure that a government in Westminster wouldn't either unilaterally shove off Northern Ireland (economic deadweight as it is; as practically all of the UK appears from Westminster) or violate the GFA by introducing customs checks (etc.) on the Irish border.

I think this is a particularly odd view for anyone who's usually sceptical of the UK's claims of adhering to a "rules-based" international order in the pursuit of democracy and human rights, or who is concerned about our security services predilection for the creation or enhancement of risks to justify their own existence.

The DUP continues to repudiate the peace agreement, and continues to frustrate forming a government in Belfast. It continued to prevent the implementation of trivial egalitarian policies while in government.

The GFA binds the government in Westminster to the ECHR, while the view that the peace process as a whole was a form of surrender is not a thoroughly unpopular position amongst Tories.

No British government is going to loudly pre-announce that they're preparing to pull out of the peace agreement, particularly not at this point where we're trying to convince others that we can and will stick to international agreements. That doesn't meant that a future government won't.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on December 11, 2018, 05:53:23 PM
The not easieness of leaving the backstop is one of the sticking points in Mays dealing it?

Yep. But that's largely nonsense, whether it's the howling of the ERG or Corbyn putting his name to a piece in the The Guardian.

It's a lovely talking point about sovereignty and how the bulldog won't be chained by agreements it can't slip out of unilaterally in a lawful manner (wait, doesn't this apply to the GFA?!).
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on December 11, 2018, 05:55:39 PM
I quite agree. Creating a red line out of something she knew could never happen was indeed a monstrous and cynical act of politicking.

No, because we still have the trade issue. If triggered, the backstop says "Hey, everyone else that trades with us as a third country. We're in the single market and customs union here so of course we can legally have the four freedoms, but you can't. So fuck off with that."

We really don't want to be in a situation where we're without a trade agreement, but still allowing the four freedoms to and from the Republic. We'd effectively be opening our borders to everything and everyone. I can't understand why May isn't making that argument for it, other than utter incompetence.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 11, 2018, 06:01:05 PM
if this isn't a horrendously cynical political manoeuvre then why not just be honest about what the real consequences are though - breaking treaty obligations or trade rules, rather than threatening a hard border that everyone involved on all sides knows is not going to happen?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on December 11, 2018, 06:01:56 PM
Why can't everyone be honest says liar
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 11, 2018, 06:07:01 PM
Why can't everyone be honest says liar


Meaning?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on December 11, 2018, 06:08:49 PM
if this isn't a horrendously cynical political manoeuvre then why not just be honest about what the real consequences are though - breaking treaty obligations or trade rules, rather than threatening a hard border that everyone involved on all sides knows is not going to happen?

This entire process from David Cameron's brainfart onward has been an horrendously cynical political manoeuvre. This train isn't stopping yet.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 11, 2018, 06:38:52 PM


Meaning?

It means somebody who doesn't tell the truth.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: MiddleRabbit on December 11, 2018, 08:16:26 PM
I do wonder why anyone would be so sure that a government in Westminster wouldn'... unilaterally shove off Northern Ireland...

The DUP...

...props up the Conservative government.

There you go
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on December 11, 2018, 08:18:21 PM
Today, yes. Not for all eternity.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Harry Badger on December 11, 2018, 08:26:57 PM
I do wonder why anyone would be so sure that a government in Westminster wouldn't either unilaterally shove off Northern Ireland

Harold Wilson considered it, most likely after drinking heavily: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7610750.stm
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Funcrusher on December 11, 2018, 08:53:40 PM
Beeb reporting that chairman of the 1922 Committee has requested a meeting with May tomorrow.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: mothman on December 11, 2018, 10:21:37 PM
If there is a Tory no-conf vote/leadership challenge it’ll be to keep everything in limbo and run the clock down. At all costs nothing must happen which might lead to a GE or - far worse - a threat to Holy Brexit such as a second referendum. Every single Tory would rather have No Deal than not getting to be in charge anymore.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BlodwynPig on December 11, 2018, 10:32:35 PM
Leadsom on C4 news, completely snookered. Yet ploughed on and blamed everything on the opposition - theyve got no ideas!!!
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: thraxx on December 11, 2018, 10:35:11 PM
Leadsom on C4 news, completely snookered. Yet ploughed on and blamed everything on the opposition - theyve got no ideas!!!

Leadsom, if Private Eye is to be believed, is considered by civil servants to be the most inept minister of recent memory, which is going some.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 12, 2018, 12:13:38 AM
I do wonder why anyone would be so sure that a government in Westminster wouldn't either unilaterally shove off Northern Ireland (economic deadweight as it is; as practically all of the UK appears from Westminster) or violate the GFA by introducing customs checks (etc.) on the Irish border.

I think this is a particularly odd view for anyone who's usually sceptical of the UK's claims of adhering to a "rules-based" international order in the pursuit of democracy and human rights, or who is concerned about our security services predilection for the creation or enhancement of risks to justify their own existence.

The DUP continues to repudiate the peace agreement, and continues to frustrate forming a government in Belfast. It continued to prevent the implementation of trivial egalitarian policies while in government.

The GFA binds the government in Westminster to the ECHR, while the view that the peace process as a whole was a form of surrender is not a thoroughly unpopular position amongst Tories.

No British government is going to loudly pre-announce that they're preparing to pull out of the peace agreement, particularly not at this point where we're trying to convince others that we can and will stick to international agreements. That doesn't meant that a future government won't.

I've been thinking in these terms too—what follows probably repudiates some things I've been saying even recently.

To some extent, the DUP moves in mysterious ways. But I'm increasingly of the view that they might regard Brexit as their only opportunity to escape the clutches of Catholicism and that they actually want a hard border—even while they know that would deal untold harm to their voting base.

This makes Labour's position all the more complicated. They can temporarily court the DUP—for example against May's deal—by pointing out that it's much more likely to lead to a border in the Irish Sea (and eventual Irish unification), but they can't drag them so far over the line with this reasoning that they would support anything that Labour had to offer, BECAUSE Labour is still offering the EU in some form or another. 'Here there be Papist dragons'.

So one concludes the DUP want a hard Brexit and a hard border. This is the only way they can truly insulate themselves from Catholic incursion and the only way they can remain Protestant. (In their eyes.)

That this thinking belongs to another century—and the fact that it is nevertheless materially affecting all our lives—is obviously monumentally depressing.

I conclude that they will, for the above reasons, never support a second ref, nor a vote of no confidence.

What does this mean for Labour?

Probably that Labour should call a vote of no confidence, fully expecting to lose it, hoping that there is a majority for a second ref.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Pearly-Dewdrops Drops on December 12, 2018, 04:15:01 AM
(That's enough sexism thanks.  Ed.)

It's not Our Lads' fault that the symbol of parliamentary sovereignty is evidently a giant golden phallus.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: greenman on December 12, 2018, 04:57:13 AM
I think he'd been tipped off as to May's move of last resort...

(http://www.flyingomelette.com/oddities/sab3/skeletor.jpg)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on December 12, 2018, 07:46:55 AM
Vote of no confidence in the PM (not the government) to happen later today:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46535739

More Tory cock-jousting to run the clock down...
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Dr Trouser on December 12, 2018, 07:48:14 AM
I am very excited about this, what a day for the mother of all parliaments
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BritishHobo on December 12, 2018, 07:51:54 AM
I know it brings about the likelihood of some other awful bastard who's also much cleverer than May taking over, but from day one my dream has been to see her fail to last the length of a full term. Please Father Christmas. Please.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 12, 2018, 07:52:48 AM
Should be a fun PMQs then, with this looming over her.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Norton Canes on December 12, 2018, 07:55:13 AM
What's that weird countryside pursuit, where worms are encouraged to come to the surface? 'Worm charming'? That's what a Tory leadership contest always reminds me of.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: greencalx on December 12, 2018, 07:55:22 AM
I suspect May may survive the confidence vote, and his will embolden her and get her deal through.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 12, 2018, 07:58:53 AM
I think she'll almost certainly survive won't she?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pigamus on December 12, 2018, 08:06:37 AM
How many votes does she need to win?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: BritishHobo on December 12, 2018, 08:07:58 AM
Can it work in her favour though? Even if she wins, the fact that it's happened at all in the week they had to postpone the vote on the shit deal, after being found in contempt of parliament, is surely just another shit cherry on top, right?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on December 12, 2018, 08:09:52 AM
Would any Tory MPs leave the party over this?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 12, 2018, 08:10:21 AM
Should be a fun PMQs then, with this looming over her.

The opposition should just play an audio recording of some cicadas at her and watch her unravel by herself.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Replies From View on December 12, 2018, 08:11:12 AM
What's that weird countryside pursuit, where worms are encouraged to come to the surface? 'Worm charming'? That's what a Tory leadership contest always reminds me of.

That’s an excellent and accurate image.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 12, 2018, 08:18:13 AM
Last time this came around and Rees-Mogg was left looking more foolish than he usually does the expectation was that May would probably win a no confidence vote.

Now, I really don’t know. She could win and be safe for a year, but I don’t think it would strengthen her or stop the Tory attacks on her. She’d still get ripped to shreds every time she stood up in the house.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 12, 2018, 08:20:50 AM
Its the eventual no confidence motion, when it comes, that will do her in.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Fambo Number Mive on December 12, 2018, 08:25:53 AM
What happens if no-one wants to stand against May as they don't want to deal with Brexit? Does May then automatically stay as PM with no no confidence vote for another year?

Surely someone must have indicated to MPs that they want to stand against May, otherwise they would have waited until they were surer to get a candidate?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on December 12, 2018, 08:28:12 AM
May will win this one but the end result might be bad enough Corbyn immediately calls a vote of no-confidence because the numbers indicate he would win. A defeat for the ERG leaves them nowhere to go except back a no-confidence motion in the government or vote down the 'new' Brexit deal, whichever comes first.

From May's perspective, her robotic soundbites aren't working anymore, either in her party or the wider public.

It's clear May would be a unsustainable leader when the election comes and is draining support and enthusiasm from the right-wing cause so why retain her?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: greencalx on December 12, 2018, 08:29:43 AM
What happens if no-one wants to stand against May as they don't want to deal with Brexit? Does May then automatically stay as PM with no no confidence vote for another year?

If she loses tonight's vote, she has to stand down. I guess there would immediately be a caretaker while the contest is underway, probably Lidington as de facto deputy PM (unless he was wanting to stand).
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: greenman on December 12, 2018, 08:30:13 AM
I know it brings about the likelihood of some other awful bastard who's also much cleverer than May taking over, but from day one my dream has been to see her fail to last the length of a full term. Please Father Christmas. Please.

Clever doesn't mean electable of course, you see that in the Tories history that a lot of skilled backroom dealers don't have an appeal with the public at large.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Shoulders?-Stomach! on December 12, 2018, 08:30:51 AM
If she loses tonight's vote, she has to stand down. I guess there would immediately be a caretaker while the contest is underway, probably Lidington as de facto deputy PM (unless he was wanting to stand).

Catastrophically damaging for the Tories leaving Brexit in Limbo and Corbyn unchallenged, so probably why that won't happen.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 12, 2018, 08:31:47 AM
Interesting that May could offer to resign later in order to win the vote tonight. Biggest fear for tories is that if she wins she ends up leading them into an election sometime next year.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: greencalx on December 12, 2018, 08:32:00 AM
I think people are underestimating May's stubbornness. If she wins (which she will, there's no way a majority of Tories will want a change of leadership), then she will just plough on. Having demonstrated that Parliament is an irrelevance and she can just do what the fuck she wants, we will be leaving the EU on her terms. I expect she's actually quite happy about the no confidence vote in this regard.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 12, 2018, 08:34:03 AM
The rules are different now too as the party members elect a new PM if May loses, which could mean:

Quote
@lewis_goodall
 If May loses tonight the chances of a no deal Brexit will increase enormously. That’s because a Brexiter will get into the final two and run on a managed no deal ticket which the grassroots will love. They will then win. These are huge stakes.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 12, 2018, 08:35:12 AM
I think people are underestimating May's stubbornness. If she wins (which she will, there's no way a majority of Tories will want a change of leadership), then she will just plough on. Having demonstrated that Parliament is an irrelevance and she can just do what the fuck she wants, we will be leaving the EU on her terms. I expect she's actually quite happy about the no confidence vote in this regard.


And her terms are the EU's terms, so presumably you'd rather she wins?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on December 12, 2018, 08:35:26 AM
Regarding May in a GE: Under what circumstances does that happen? When do the DUP or Tory wets and/or nutters decide that's the best option? I'm open to any of these making a mistake, of course.

Best case for a Tory MP, particularly if you favour a Hard Brexit, is May in place until late 2019 with the open contempt of most of her party.

Then dump her, get some top racism in with Home Office policy for a few months to a year and the like, and then go for a GE.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: thraxx on December 12, 2018, 08:35:46 AM
May will win this one but the end result might be bad enough Corbyn immediately calls a vote of no-confidence because the numbers indicate he would win. A defeat for the ERG leaves them nowhere to go except back a no-confidence motion in the government or vote down the 'new' Brexit deal, whichever comes first.

I'm now wondering if Corbyn didn't call a vote of no confidence because he suspected that this might happen.  If May stays then he can deploy a vote of no confidence at the right moment.

Also, exactly how many letters have been received.  Is it exactly 48, or are they more?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 12, 2018, 08:36:17 AM
Thinking about it further I think she’s still likely to win a no confidence vote and I think she’d stay on no matter how many voted against her.

If Corbyn then raised a no confidence in the government vote she’d definitely win that.

We could have the situation where she is totally finished politically but safe in Number 10 until the end of next year. If she had any capacity to resign she would have done it by now.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on December 12, 2018, 08:36:48 AM
We can't have a withdrawal agreement without the HoC, at least not legally.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on December 12, 2018, 08:38:31 AM
And her terms are the EU's terms,
No, they're not. The only thing of any controversy in the WA, really, is the backstop and that's mostly nonsense. You could quibble about the political declaration but that's not particularly relevant given we've got years of negotiations regardless.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 12, 2018, 08:44:09 AM
No, they're not. The only thing of any controversy in the WA, really, is the backstop and that's mostly nonsense. You could quibble about the political declaration but that's not particularly relevant given we've got years of negotiations regardless.

I thought her deal had been approved by the commission and all 27 EU members? Its the "only deal available" according to Tusk and co. How is it not their deal exactly?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: hamfist on December 12, 2018, 08:46:16 AM
Do they publish WHO sent the letters of no confidence ?

Just wondering if my CON MP (Julian Sturdy) took part in this...
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 12, 2018, 08:49:14 AM
Not sure but the ballot is secret, so all these tories coming out and backing her now could stab her in the back safe in the knowledge nobody would ever know.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: thraxx on December 12, 2018, 08:51:26 AM

Summary of that speech:  Dreamland.

Astonishing level of double think.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 12, 2018, 08:51:55 AM
She's playing the 'stop brexit' card and the spectre of a labour government.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: greencalx on December 12, 2018, 08:52:13 AM

And her terms are the EU's terms, so presumably you'd rather she wins?

Don’t you put those fucking cunty words into my mouth you turd. I’m just commenting on the realpolitik of the situation.

My preference is for a GE. I have no idea whether this confidence vote takes us closer or further away from that being a possibility.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Zetetic on December 12, 2018, 08:52:27 AM
I thought her deal had been approved by the commission and all 27 EU members?
It reflects the negotiating positions of both sides. If the UK had a different set of desires outcomes then the deal could have been different.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on December 12, 2018, 08:53:55 AM
My preference is for a GE. I have no idea whether this confidence vote takes us closer or further away from that being a possibility.

Probably depends on the outcome.
A narrow May survival might be the best thing for that.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 12, 2018, 08:55:13 AM
Don’t you put those fucking cunty words into my mouth you turd. I’m just commenting on the realpolitik of the situation.

My preference is for a GE. I have no idea whether this confidence vote takes us closer or further away from that being a possibility.


No need to be rude now is there? You think her losing makes a harder brexit less likely?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: greencalx on December 12, 2018, 08:57:09 AM
We can't have a withdrawal agreement without the HoC, at least not legally.

I was talking to a colleague about this yesterday. Doesn’t it come down to the “usual constitutional arrangements of the member state”. Does the government need parliamentary approval to ratify the withdrawal agreement? After the last few days I think the gov will just laugh in Parliament’s face and there’s absolutely fuck all it can do about it. I mean, maybe someone will get suspended. For an hour.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: thraxx on December 12, 2018, 08:57:26 AM
I can't believe that.  Every line at worst a one-eyed stubborn take on events, at worst lies. (Actually I can believe it).

We are delivering the Brexit people want:  Her deal, which everyone hates it.
Let's get on with delivering Brexit:  48 hours after she delayed the vote.
We are delivering a fair country for everyone:  Poverty and homelessness at a high, universal credit.
If it's not her not enough time to deliver Brexit:  She's had 2 years and it is still going down to the wire.
People don't want Labour and Corbyn:  If you're so sure of that, why is your biggest fear a GE.

Edit:  Also her promise in the speech is to carry on exactly what she's doing, the very behavior that has got us in this shit in the first place.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on December 12, 2018, 09:00:00 AM

No need to be rude now is there? You think her losing makes a harder brexit less likely?

Why would it make it more likely? Unless you know her replacement is JRM.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 12, 2018, 09:02:44 AM
It reflects the negotiating positions of both sides. If the UK had a different set of desires outcomes then the deal could have been different.


Thats a big what if. There are of course lots of people who think May's deal isnt any better than just remaining, in fact worse in many ways in that we become rule takers without any say. That sounds like a win for the EU to me, which is presumably why they're so keen to stress there will be no other deal - they're happy with what they got.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 12, 2018, 09:04:01 AM
Why would it make it more likely? Unless you know her replacement is JRM.


Because the party members elect the new leader, and they're disportionately brexiters aren't they? Careful of what you wish for if you want May gone.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on December 12, 2018, 09:04:40 AM
and they're disportionately brexiters aren't they?

Er, no.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: greencalx on December 12, 2018, 09:05:24 AM

No need to be rude now is there? You think her losing makes a harder brexit less likely?

There is every need to be rude when you wilfully, knowingly and utterly misrepresent my position. (And you’ve done it again, by the way, assuming that I retrofit my commentary and tentative predictions to a presupposed desired outcome, rather than looking at what’s going on and trying to figure out what it means for the future. Please try to understand this).

What kind of Brexit we end up with will depend on who the PM is when it comes to finalising the withdrawal (non) agreement. If boris gets in, its no deal. If it’s Rudd (or Corbyn) then it will be at the softer end of the spectrum.

The only thing of which we can be certain is that losing the vote will cause more uncertainty.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 12, 2018, 09:06:15 AM
Er, no.


Mate, most tory party members are pensioners.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Paul Calf on December 12, 2018, 09:06:56 AM
It's utterly astonishing that they'd think that a leadership contest is what's needed now

A leaderless government is arguably what the hard-Brexit lunatics want at the moment considering that this whole exercise has been a plutocratic power grab.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on December 12, 2018, 09:07:17 AM

Mate, most tory party members are pensioners.

So?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 12, 2018, 09:07:40 AM
There is every need to be rude when you wilfully, knowingly and utterly misrepresent my position. (And you’ve done it again, by the way, assuming that I retrofit my commentary and tentative predictions to a presupposed desired outcome, rather than looking at what’s going on and trying to figure out what it means for the future. Please try to understand this).

What kind of Brexit we end up with will depend on who the PM is when it comes to finalising the withdrawal (non) agreement. If boris gets in, its no deal. If it’s Rudd (or Corbyn) then it will be at the softer end of the spectrum.

The only thing of which we can be certain is that losing the vote will cause more uncertainty.


I wasn't 'wilfully misrepresenting' your position, I was challenging it - calm down you big baby.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 12, 2018, 09:08:47 AM
So?

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/15372/production/_90089868_eu_ref_uk_regions_leave_remain_gra624_by_age.png)
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on December 12, 2018, 09:10:34 AM
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/15372/production/_90089868_eu_ref_uk_regions_leave_remain_gra624_by_age.png)

Ah. And that applies to the relatively small sample group which is Tory MPs does it?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 12, 2018, 09:10:47 AM
Haha a tory MP is on telly now complaining that the Labour party are playing 'party politics' over this. Amazing.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 12, 2018, 09:12:49 AM
Ah. And that applies to the relatively small sample group which is Tory MPs does it?


As far as I understand it the MPs vote on the candidates and the party members - older, more right wing, more likely to support brexit, vote for the new PM. That means we're quite likely to end up with a hard brexiteer running the country within a few weeks if she loses.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 12, 2018, 09:15:43 AM
THIS MIGHT BE THE THREAD THEN, THE THREAD SHE FINALLY GOES
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 12, 2018, 09:16:34 AM
I think a compromise candidate between the two extremes is most likely.

If, and it is a big if, May is deposed I think there is a good chance the Tory MPs will decide on one candidate (the other dropping out) so no membership vote is needed.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: king_tubby on December 12, 2018, 09:17:07 AM
THIS MIGHT BE THE THREAD THEN, THE THREAD SHE FINALLY GOES

Well you've gone and fucking jinxed it now, you big bastard.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 12, 2018, 09:17:37 AM
Woops sorry!
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on December 12, 2018, 09:18:07 AM

As far as I understand it the MPs vote on the candidates and the party members - older, more right wing, more likely to support brexit, vote for the new PM. That means we're quite likely to end up with a hard brexiteer running the country within a few weeks if she loses.

Based on? Oh yes, you posted an image...

The existing Tory MPs' previous voting preferences over Brexit are easy enough to find. Why not have a look at those and post the your findings?
Perhaps that will offer a better guide than your assumptions based on how old some people are.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: im barry bethel on December 12, 2018, 09:18:23 AM

As far as I understand it the MPs vote on the candidates and the party members - older, more right wing, more likely to support brexit, vote for the new PM. That means we're quite likely to end up with a hard brexiteer running the country within a few weeks if she loses.

Why do you think LolBoris pulled the chain last time around?, they've gotta get past the MPs before they get to the grannies you fool
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 12, 2018, 09:18:54 AM
THIS MIGHT BE THE THREAD THEN, THE THREAD SHE FINALLY GOES

Nah, she’s going to be locked in place until 2020. The Tories most inept prime minister in living memory will carry on.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Blumf on December 12, 2018, 09:19:11 AM
I think a compromise candidate between the two extremes is most likely.

Wasn't that what May was supposed to be?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DeadBishop on December 12, 2018, 09:19:33 AM

As far as I understand it the MPs vote on the candidates and the party members - older, more right wing, more likely to support brexit, vote for the new PM. That means we're quite likely to end up with a hard brexiteer running the country within a few weeks if she loses.

Not convinced that's true. MPs get them down to two candidates remember. Last time it was Leadsom and May until the pretender dropped out, negatin the need for a vote. I wouldnt assume at all that MPs would let a Mogg or Boris get to the final two. They didnt last time.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: im barry bethel on December 12, 2018, 09:21:30 AM
The Tories most inept prime minister in living memory will carry on.

Given the competition that's quite an achievement
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 12, 2018, 09:21:42 AM
Wasn't that what May was supposed to be?

Yep. And the depth of talent among Tories l, or rather the lack of it,mean her successor could be just as bad.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 12, 2018, 09:22:07 AM
Why do you think LolBoris pulled the chain last time around?, they've gotta get past the MPs before they get to the grannies you fool


It seems pretty likely at least one of the candidates will be a brexiteer though right? Consider there are a fair number of hard brexiteers in the party, certainly enough to get behind at least one Brexit candidate. Even if its not Boris, what about someone like Raab? The risk seems big enough that it'll be enough for May to win to me, to avoid it.


I've lost track of all the amendments and stuff now butbisnt it still the case that there will be a no deal brexit if parliament can't agree a deal by March?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 12, 2018, 09:23:40 AM
Given the competition that's quite an achievement

May really has put the effort in. The utter grade one fuckup over the last week has pushed her to new levels. She could beat that if she refuses to go after winning today but with a significant no vote.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: jobotic on December 12, 2018, 09:27:15 AM
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/15372/production/_90089868_eu_ref_uk_regions_leave_remain_gra624_by_age.png)

Why do you hate young people Mr Democracy?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pigamus on December 12, 2018, 09:28:17 AM
So it's just a simple majority? She could win by one vote?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: im barry bethel on December 12, 2018, 09:28:26 AM

It seems pretty likely at least one of the candidates will be a brexiteer though right?

No

Consider there are a fair number of hard brexiteers in the party, certainly enough to get behind at least one Brexit candidate. Even if its not Boris, what about someone like Raab? The risk seems big enough that it'll be enough for May to win to me, to avoid it.

Which is why LolBoris nor Give not Fox have ever got past the first hurdle, nor Dave 2 Dave's previously (nor Fox again), there's no 'vote May to avoid Boris' risk management, the Tories have always shit on each other over Europe
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 12, 2018, 09:29:30 AM
Why are we being forced to live in a Tory psychodrama
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: jobotic on December 12, 2018, 09:31:48 AM
Why are we being forced to live in a Tory psychodrama

Exactly. The power the Brexit vote has given these imbecilic vermin to destroy everything is sickening.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 12, 2018, 09:33:18 AM
They were having a good go at that before the Brexit vote. The only difference is that they were doing it with their friends, the Lib Dems.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Alberon on December 12, 2018, 09:33:27 AM
So it's just a simple majority? She could win by one vote?

Yes, but any rational person would then quit because their position would be utterly untenable.

Any rational person that is.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 12, 2018, 09:34:31 AM
Yeah this is what'll happen innit, very slender majority for May, she'll ignore the whole thing and plough on.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 12, 2018, 09:38:16 AM
Will it even be slender? This is a proxy vote for May or JRM/Boris, isn't it?
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Huxleys Babkins on December 12, 2018, 09:38:54 AM

Thats a big what if. There are of course lots of people who think May's deal isnt any better than just remaining, in fact worse in many ways in that we become rule takers without any say. That sounds like a win for the EU to me, which is presumably why they're so keen to stress there will be no other deal - they're happy with what they got.

But this is what happens when you try to leave a massive trade bloc whilst still being wholly reliant on it to function as a nation.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Cuellar on December 12, 2018, 09:41:37 AM
Will it even be slender? This is a proxy vote for May or JRM/Boris, isn't it?

Yeah true, probably not, it would just be poetic if it was slender.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: Darles Chickens on December 12, 2018, 09:44:40 AM
Will it even be slender? This is a proxy vote for May or JRM/Boris, isn't it?

Truth is, it's hard to think of any pro-EU candidates, other than Rudd maybe, but I can't see her being a popular choice with anyone. All the obvious contenders are Brexity, some more than others. Johnson B doesn't stand a chance. I'd explode with schadenfreude if his brother was nominated and actually won.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: biggytitbo on December 12, 2018, 09:49:22 AM
No

Which is why LolBoris nor Give not Fox have ever got past the first hurdle, nor Dave 2 Dave's previously (nor Fox again), there's no 'vote May to avoid Boris' risk management, the Tories have always shit on each other over Europe


Strange how ive been told on here forever that we're going to end up with Boris or JRM or Gove as PM, and thats why we must stay in the EU. And now I'm saying we could end up with someone like that as PM, the record changes to the diametrically opposite position. I don't think any of those would win an election but clearly if May loses there's a real danger one of that ilk ends up as the leader for a while at least.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: pancreas on December 12, 2018, 09:51:12 AM
No-one's been telling you that, you mad cunt.
Title: Re: Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)
Post by: DrGreggles on December 12, 2018, 09:52:03 AM