Started by Retinend, January 22, 2014, 12:04:34 PM
Quote from: Smeraldina Rima on January 22, 2014, 09:19:26 PMRetinend, sorry for giving the wrong impression, I can see how it would have come across as insulting.
QuoteThe documentary was insulting, particularly the presenter's conclusion of 'socio-political hang ups' and earlier discussion of the Darmstadt tryanny. I don't know what happened to Britten, Dallapiccola and Henze under the iron baton of Boulez, but failing to find anything in searches I assume it was not very much like the Entartete Musik policies They came across through all of this as not caring about freedom aesthetically or politically or having interest in why people might make certain kinds of music which they don't respond to. It placed these concerns below that of a dwindling traditional form and its charms.To speak about Darmstadt as a place of oppression and leave out the previous history of serialism was terrible
QuoteThe contributor's wearily tolerant sympathy with atonal composers' axiomatic connection between passionate crowds and the Nuremberg rally was a nauseating write off I thought.
QuoteVery wierd how they could pass over the significance of these reactions to the two wars and elsewhere laugh off Prokofiev's commision to cultivate children's taste bescause it produced something as beautiful as Peter and the Wolf.
Quote from: Funcrusher on January 22, 2014, 09:34:47 PM Google suggests 'The Rest Is Noise' was a bestseller here and in the US.http://www.theguardian.com/books/booksblog/2008/dec/04/rest-noise-first-book-award
Quote from: Retinend on January 22, 2014, 10:06:41 PMIn fact that's amazing, Funcrusher. That the South Bank would put on a series of concerts based on the success of a book that sold better than would have been predicted.
Quote from: Sam on January 22, 2014, 11:03:26 PMA lot of the issues raised in this thread crop up a lot in what is in my view the best blog on classical music (Alex Ross would probably agree and frequently links to it) is www.overgrownpath.comA typical good post would be this recent one about entartete kunst (seeing as this has been mentioned in this thread).http://www.overgrownpath.com/2014/01/we-need-to-widen-definition-of.html?m=1Retiend I'll try to deal with a few of your points soon as you've raised a lot of interesting stuff but I think you're more or less wrong about it all!
Quote from: NoSleep on January 22, 2014, 06:23:04 PMI do prefer Terry Riley's version of "hypnotic" by far, which invites further listening and fascination.
Quote from: Smeraldina Rima on January 22, 2014, 09:19:26 PMProkofiev's grandson seemed like a milktoast culture minister with a love for melody, forward motion, and music for the people or for empathy provisionally, if only by virtue of his being naive and having extraordinarily shit guests that don't get along with Boulez.
Quote from: Petey Pate on January 23, 2014, 10:56:48 AMThanks for mentioning Terry Riley. The name was familiar but I hadn't heard any of his music up until now. I gave "A Rainbow in Curved Air" a listen and can hear exactly what you mean. It's repetitious but there's enough variation to keep it interesting, similar to Indian ragas, some krautrock or funk.
Quote from: NoSleep on January 23, 2014, 11:13:40 AMAlso he places his own improvised performances (mostly saxophone & organ) at the heart of much of his music; a development on from the written composition and a very 20th Century approach to music, often incorporating the recording process into the fabric of the music. My favourite (and, I believe, the first) minimalist.
Quote from: Petey Pate on January 23, 2014, 10:56:48 AMTo be honest, its surprising to me that Schonberg is still perceived as radical by some, the music I've heard of his sounds fairly "normal", similar to how it's surprising to think that people violently reacted to the premier of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring.
Quote from: Retinend on January 23, 2014, 07:26:59 PMWho is terrified of this radicalism, then or now? I doubt seriously that even Goebbels/Hitler themselves could have been accurately described as terrified of it. Most detractors of Schönberg, both me and my buddy Adolf, think the music sounds bad and that's it. Not repulsive or frightening - bad. Bad music.
Quote from: Retinend on January 23, 2014, 07:26:59 PMWho is terrified of this radicalism, then or now? I doubt seriously that even Goebbels/Hitler themselves could have been accurately described as terrified of it. Most detractors of Schönberg, both me and my buddy Adolf, think the music sounds bad and that's it. Not repulsive or frightening - bad. Bad music. It's awfully flattering to believe that their detractions come rather out of a zombeish love of simplicity or out of a hatred of the bodacious and totally radical avant-garde. (And it follows logically that if someone dislikes Schönberg they can't possibly dig Partsch, Moondog or Sun Ra, which makes myself a living contradiction).
Quote from: Retinend on January 23, 2014, 07:26:59 PMedit: I can't reccommed Riley's "The Book Of Abbeyozzud" (1999) highly enough as an acoustic, non-minimalist contrast to "Rainbow in Curved Air."
Quote from: Retinend on January 23, 2014, 07:26:59 PMAlthough this is an unfortunate sidepoint. The thread was about a radio show that was claiming that the music isn't popular, but aside from Funcrusher no one's really wanted to rationally defend music through the Viennese line as popular. It's much easier to defend it as good, because it's an unassailable position to personally enjoy something.
Quote from: Retinend on January 23, 2014, 08:03:49 PMAlternatively you could look at the concrete outcome of art in Nazi Germany: the state dictated what the art meant and what it looked/sounded/read like
Quote from: Retinend on January 23, 2014, 11:28:41 PMNo it doesn't imply fear. It was quite a concrete totalitarian gesture: replacing the contemporary existing cultural scene with bland propaganda. They were also symbolically tossing away the entire 1920s Weimar Zeitgeist in general, which was viewed as a society gone down the drain. The left wing also viewed the Weimar Republik as irrevocably corrupt too, for not radicially different reasons to the Nazis, as visually captured in this painting by the communist dadaist Georg Groß: http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/lr0E6lmbFmpjpupm3fZPyvbho1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAI6WLSGT7Y3ET7ADQ&Expires=1390605746&Signature=b1AZyy%2FPeIYfzieNtVty7y9SHQ8%3D#_=_This picture gives you an impression of what the exhibition Entartete Kunst was supposed to be sweeping away: not the revolutionary power of twelve-tone scales, but the decadence and decay of old-fashioned liberal democrats and the culture that had developed under their industrial management.
Quote from: Retinend on January 24, 2014, 12:20:21 AMNot "fear of social decay," the rejection of this earlier social decay. Yes that includes atonal music, but also jazz, and Dadaism, and die Brücke painters, and abstract art, and Joyce-inspired writing like Berlin Alexanderplatz. Hemingway was banned. Picasso was banned. Finding a special property shared by all these things is a wild goose chase,
QuoteThe joke's gone too far, though. Why do some of the cleverest people listen to nonsense like this [Anthony Braxton], Schoenburg, Hindemith, extreme Noise & Industrial etc?
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