Game Of Thrones Season 8

[NoSleep]

I thought Cersei was having it both ways by using the people as a shield. I thought she was quite happy for Daenerys to blaze through them, believing her own position was unassailable (for some reason; just because a dragon had never attacked the Red Keep before, maybe).

[MiddleRabbit]

I thought Cersei was having it both ways by using the people as a shield. I thought she was quite happy for Daenerys to blaze through them, believing her own position was unassailable (for some reason; just because a dragon had never attacked the Red Keep before, maybe).

I don't think Cersei gave a shit about the small folk but I think she thought Danaerys would.  Or thought that even if Danaerys didn't care, then the people wouldn't accept her because burning them would put them off her.  Which, as I said, is ironic, bearing in mind Cersei's solution to the Faith Militant issue.

Cersei, as her father pointed out, just wasn't as clever as she thought she was.  QE fucking D.

[Mister Six]

D&D haven't ballsed it up.  They've created a visually interesting world with some interesting characters.  The plotting isn't fantastic but maybe that's not really their fault.  They've done a pretty good job bearing in mind the source material's limitations.

That would work as an excuse if the worst parts of GoT weren't the ones where they no longer had the source material to work from.

Can't remember if I said this in here already, but:

It felt to me like when a comic gets cancelled and the final arc becomes a choppy succession of barely connected moments and questionable character decisions because the writer only had four months' notice and is desperately trying to get all of the pieces in the places they were supposed to organically reach over the course of years.

It FELT like that, but in reality Benioff and Weiss had about four years to plan this out after announcing their own, self-determined cut-off point, and rejected suggestions by HBO and GRRM that they extend the run and/or step down and let someone else take over. They've fucked it completely and they only have themselves to blame.

I know it's easier said in hindsight than actually performed at any point, but they should have taken a year off after season five, perhaps even season four, and sat down to break down what would happen and how, in mind-numbing detail. It would have been apparent then, I think, that this thing needed 10 seasons at least - and might have allowed some use to be found for Dorne, Brutus from Rome, and all the other stuff that got tossed off half-heartedly to make way for this farrago.

I mean, Christ, imagine how interesting depicting Dany's descent into paranoia and megalomania amid fracturing alliances and heavy losses would have been if it had happened over the course of a season instead of, like, two episodes.

[NoSleep]

It felt to me like when a comic gets cancelled and the final arc becomes a choppy succession of barely connected moments and questionable character decisions because the writer only had four months' notice and is desperately trying to get all of the pieces in the places they were supposed to organically reach over the course of years.

Or a TV series, like Rome, that gets the chop and they attempt to truncate several seasons-worth (years and years) of plot into one to finish it off. In that particular case I think they might not have got the chop, post-GoT.

[colacentral]

Cersei's point was what you say it was.  She was working on the assumption that Danaerys wouldn't torch a load of civilians because then everybody'd hate her.  She was mistaken.  That's a bit weird, bearing in mind Cersei also torched a load of KL residents with no apparent issue in maintaining her rule.  Cersei also didn't know Danaerys had reached the end of her tether with the lack of appreciation for everything she'd done at great personal cost.  You might call it hubris on Cersei's part because she didn't appear to really have any other plans, hence her doing nothing but standing and watching it all go to shit.  Like Danaery would have at Winterfell, except she had dragons.  People have moaned about that as well.  'Why didn't she do something?'  Like what?  Maybe the Golden Company was another ploy, but as they rapidly became the Golden Brown Company, that didn't work either.

The best laid plans of mice and men and all that...

I don't get the problems, myself.  People seemed to like Ned getting his head lopped off because they didn't expect it because they assumed he'd be a major player when he turned out not to be.  He got executed because he thought the Goldcloaks would defend him and that everybody would just accept Robert's last will and testament.  Now Cersei's (probably) dead due to an entirely believable and banal event (falling masonry from an aerial bombardment) because she thought Danaerys wouldn't burn her human shields or work out how to avoid Scorpion bolts.

Cersei's end came as a result of underestimating the depths that her enemy would stoop to, just the same as Ned.  You could call it ironic, you could call it poetic.  You could call it a heel turn by Danaery, but that'd involve ignoring eight seasons worth of her talk and actions.  Yeah, she liberated the slave city, but as she said, they liberated themselves.  The Kings Landing people didn't so, yeah, fuck'em, she thought.  They don't like me, they won't help themselves, I deserve to be the boss, if they don't love me, they can fear me.

You might not like it, but there was nothing wrong with it: it's been very well signposted.  Literally, by crucified toffs in Essos.

My point was that they weren't human shields though - the battle was won without noticeable civilian casualties, Qyburn says all the scorpions are destroyed, and Cersei is a sitting duck. So on its own terms the show inserted a massive leap of logic for Dany to continue rampaging on. There is some connective tissue missing there between the battle and the genocide.

[Dr Sanchez]

don't get the problems, myself.  People seemed to like Ned getting his head lopped off because they didn't expect it because they assumed he'd be a major player when he turned out not to be. 

People loved the red wedding too which was the end of a few big characters in unexpected and horrific ways but the major difference between then and now is the writing.

Nothing has any weight to it now. Does anyone really care about these one dimensional idiots anymore?

The one scene in this whole season that I felt any emotion during was Jaimie and Tyrions goodbye and that was mainly down to the performances.

[sevendaughters]

If I truly asked myself do I dislike anything that has happened in 8 series I'd say that only the Night King/wight stuff didn't grab me (books and TV, though TV took a big running jump with it) and I think the show is best with its battles implied & referred to like in I CLAVDIVS. The actual story has been good consistently and I understand why they might want to downplay certain angles. They just rushed the ending in a way that altered the feel of the show palpably. This causes me more melancholy at what might have been, and hope for something more interesting and complex in the books. But it has been mostly a very good ride. I'm not overly upset.

[wooders1978]

I'm sick of hearing their straw man argument of "you can't make everyone happy"

Ok lads, but surely the plan would have been to keep most people happy?? 

[NoSleep]

The way to please people is to not try to please them; have a bit of vision & courage and surprise everybody. Surprise is what's lacking this season; we've learnt nothing new about the characters.

[Alberon]

The inevitable change.org petition

Remake Game of Thrones Season 8 with competent writers.

David Benioff and D.B. Weiss have proven themselves to be woefully incompetent writers when they have no source material (i.e. the books) to fall back on.

This series deserves a final season that makes sense.

Subvert my expectations and make it happen, HBO!

https://www.change.org/p/hbo-remake-game-of-thrones-season-8-with-competent-writers

Currently at just shy of 70,000 signatures.

[dallasman]

Even with some of the more wildly diverging views on this thread, I think we can all agree that it's way, WAY worse out there among the truly obsessive.

That said, B&W should be executed in a live-streamed Leng Tch'e ceremony.

nah, not really

[Mister Six]

Or a TV series, like Rome, that gets the chop and they attempt to truncate several seasons-worth (years and years) of plot into one to finish it off. In that particular case I think they might not have got the chop, post-GoT.

IIRC, the BBC did for it when it pulled out of the co-production deal with HBO. I imagine its ratings weren't helped by (again, IIRC) the BBC cut of the first two episodes combining the first two episodes into a single pilot, and hacking out the scheming and intrigue to bring down its runtime without losing the tits and sex.

[Dr Sanchez]

That would work as an excuse if the worst parts of GoT weren't the ones where they no longer had the source material to work from.

Can't remember if I said this in here already, but:

It felt to me like when a comic gets cancelled and the final arc becomes a choppy succession of barely connected moments and questionable character decisions because the writer only had four months' notice and is desperately trying to get all of the pieces in the places they were supposed to organically reach over the course of years.

It FELT like that, but in reality Benioff and Weiss had about four years to plan this out after announcing their own, self-determined cut-off point, and rejected suggestions by HBO and GRRM that they extend the run and/or step down and let someone else take over. They've fucked it completely and they only have themselves to blame.

I know it's easier said in hindsight than actually performed at any point, but they should have taken a year off after season five, perhaps even season four, and sat down to break down what would happen and how, in mind-numbing detail. It would have been apparent then, I think, that this thing needed 10 seasons at least - and might have allowed some use to be found for Dorne, Brutus from Rome, and all the other stuff that got tossed off half-heartedly to make way for this farrago.

I mean, Christ, imagine how interesting depicting Dany's descent into paranoia and megalomania amid fracturing alliances and heavy losses would have been if it had happened over the course of a season instead of, like, two episodes.

Wonderfully put.

[beanheadmcginty]

Fingers crossed they stick the landing. I don't know what I would do if they failed to stick the landing. I haven't even got a landing to stick as I live in a ground floor flat. That's probably why this landing sticking situation is so very important to me.

[Mister Six]

Wonderfully put.

Cheers!

[A Hat Like That]

Or a TV series, like Rome, that gets the chop and they attempt to truncate several seasons-worth (years and years) of plot into one to finish it off. In that particular case I think they might not have got the chop, post-GoT.

the irony being that part of the reason they got the chop *because* of Game of Thrones.

its a shame, as another few series of Rome with

I discovered halfway through writing the second season the show was going to end. The second was going to end with the death of Brutus. Third and fourth season would be set in Egypt. Fifth was going to be the rise of the Messiah in Palestine. But because we got the heads-up that the second season would be it, I telescoped the third and fourth season into the second one, which accounts for the blazing speed we go through history near the end. There's certainly more than enough history to go around.

sounds quite nice.

In any case, we still have I, Clavdivs as a sequel.

[phantom_power]

The inevitable change.org petition

https://www.change.org/p/hbo-remake-game-of-thrones-season-8-with-competent-writers

Currently at just shy of 70,000 signatures.

I think regardless of how we see this season we can all agree that this lot are a bunch of turds

[Dex Sawash]

I like the end of Rome. Titus Pillow and the insufferable Caesareon walk off to "about your father..."
Would love to watch the spin-off of that.
Maybe someone will do it in HS Art

[Mister Six]

When Herod turned up in season two I wondered how they were going to tackle Jesus. Shame they never got the chance. There was always a subtle hint in Rome that the curses and god's were actually real and could affect people, so it would have been intriguing to see if that played out with Jesus.

[MiddleRabbit]

That would work as an excuse if the worst parts of GoT weren't the ones where they no longer had the source material to work from.

Can't remember if I said this in here already, but:

It felt to me like when a comic gets cancelled and the final arc becomes a choppy succession of barely connected moments and questionable character decisions because the writer only had four months' notice and is desperately trying to get all of the pieces in the places they were supposed to organically reach over the course of years.

It FELT like that, but in reality Benioff and Weiss had about four years to plan this out after announcing their own, self-determined cut-off point, and rejected suggestions by HBO and GRRM that they extend the run and/or step down and let someone else take over. They've fucked it completely and they only have themselves to blame.

I know it's easier said in hindsight than actually performed at any point, but they should have taken a year off after season five, perhaps even season four, and sat down to break down what would happen and how, in mind-numbing detail. It would have been apparent then, I think, that this thing needed 10 seasons at least - and might have allowed some use to be found for Dorne, Brutus from Rome, and all the other stuff that got tossed off half-heartedly to make way for this farrago.

I mean, Christ, imagine how interesting depicting Dany's descent into paranoia and megalomania amid fracturing alliances and heavy losses would have been if it had happened over the course of a season instead of, like, two episodes.

I think George RR's evident issues in reaching some sort of end for the whole thing (since 1991, when he apparently started writing it) speaks volumes.  He's had twenty eight years to work it out and it doesn't appear to be happening anytime soon.

He built an interesting world with some interesting characters without giving much thought as to how everything would pan out.  The first three volumes were pretty good (at least).  The two that followed were meandering and his solution to everything is to add more characters who do more things.

In short, the point at which the show overtook the books was a point at which everything was a total fucking heap that neither the author nor the show runners are likely to have much joy in wrapping up.

The show cut a lot out, which it had to really.

The parts that they added, yeah, some of it was poor.  Bad pussy wasn't very good.  Mind you, neither was some of George RR's description.

Dany's might have gone mad, or maybe she hasn't.  She's not being much of a benevolent messiah, that much is true.  But it's not happened over two episodes, her tendency to crush those who don't do what she tells them has been here since the start.  As I've said, the people who advised her to ignore those tendencies are either dead, have advised her to do things that resulted in poor outcomes, or have usurped her in the popularity stakes.  She's gone from being everybody's heroine to being some foreigner who thinks she's it because everybodyl loves Jon Snow, who won't nob her anymore because she's his auntie and - even worse - has a better claim to the throne than her.

Take Grey Worm too.  The unsullied were trained to be totally obedient through a brutal upbringing.  Dany knew better and gave them freedom, which sounded great until the possibility arises that Grey Worm's burgeoning relationship with the Missandei might have been the factor that lead him to murdering prisoners through anger. 

It's about hubris, the whole thing.  Which, given RR's attitude towards plotting and working out how he's going to end such a massive mess, is quite ironic.

TL:DR - some of D&D's writing's not great, no.  But that's to forget that George RR's wasn't either.  And they inherited a total mess that the author appears to be struggling with, and if he can't do it, who can?  That, and the fact that some people are obviously on their phones while they're half watching it and clearly miss a lot of what's been going on.

[MiddleRabbit]

People loved the red wedding too which was the end of a few big characters in unexpected and horrific ways but the major difference between then and now is the writing.

Nothing has any weight to it now. Does anyone really care about these one dimensional idiots anymore?

The one scene in this whole season that I felt any emotion during was Jaimie and Tyrions goodbye and that was mainly down to the performances.

I don't agree that anything now has any more or less weight to it than it ever did.  All the big events happened pretty suddenly. 

The characters aren't one dimensional.  Well, alright, some of them are.  Euron's a bit crap and there're others too.  Most of them though are flawed people who change their minds about things, based on trying something for a bit and deciding whether they like it or not.

Cersei, for instance, has always been a person who's convinced she's a genius when actually she's a moron.  She's ballsed up everything she's tried from the very beginning.  She"s the epitome of someone who staggers from one disaster to the next and has to have somebody to clean up her mess for her - usually Qyburn these days.  She found herself helpless after she thought the Faith Militant would sort Margery out and leave her alone.  She found herself helpless after she thought Danaerys wouldn't burn the city.  She's a terrible judge of character and has no foresight at all.

The citizens were a human shield - for her personally, not for KL.  Again, Cersei's 'clever' plan didn't work. 

I don't think it's been rushed either.  Ned wasn't going to executed and it took about ten seconds to go from him being sent to the wall to Joffrey deciding he wanted blood instead.  The Red Wedding turned on a sixpence from laughs and japes to slaughter.  Like things do.  It's what happens when things go bad.  It happens very quickly and without warning. 

[Norton Canes]

Just caught up with the last couple of episodes. Some good stuff, some not so good, not very much that's had me punching the air/watching though fingers like the classic moments in previous series.

In 'The Last of the Starks' (ep.4) did anyone else think the sequence where Danerys attacks King's Landing with her dragons only for the Iron Fleet to appear and off one of them, was actually a dream? I know there was a brief establishing shot of them arriving in the South but the actual attack seemed so sudden and catastrophic, I expected her to wake up in a cold sweat.

And in this latest episode sorry but you can't get away with the ballistas just suddenly being utterly ineffective. At least include some reason why they weren't finding their target... maybe they got a bunch or warped arrows or something... have some Northern soldiers sabotage the mechanisms, I don't know. Also I know some people don't like criticisms being leveled at battle tactics but come on Qyburn, station a few scorpions around the city itself, under wraps. Even on the battlements of the Red Keep itself! And, they still had wildfire. Sake.

Anyway clearly leading up to Arya dispatching Danerys but her legions would remain loyal and of course she'd still have Drogon so I reckon it's more likely she'll be convinced of the error of her ways and fly off into the arid wastelands of Essos, leaving Sansa to devolve power among the Kingdoms.

[Norton Canes]

Oh yeah and Bronn will turn up to claim his reward from Tyrion who'll be unable to remunerate him so they'll have a fight like the Nick Nack scene at the end of man With The  Golden Gun except with Bronn ironically in the dwarf role

[Mister Six]

The show cut a lot out, which it had to really.

But it cut out too much, which necessitated hacked down seasons, which necessitated choppy writing and fucked characterisation. It also means that all the time we spent with the Dorne lot and the fella who was held hostage by Walder Frey was wasted because the Riverlands and Dorne basically disappeared after season five, and everywhere that wasn't Winterfell or King's Landing evaporated by the end of last season.

Mind you, neither was some of George RR's description.

Who cares? His writing isn't the issue here.

But it's not happened over two episodes, her tendency to crush those who don't do what she tells them has been here since the start.

But who was defying her here? The army had surrendered, the bells were ringing. This is not a normal precursor for genocide, at least what we've seen in this show so far. Dany's decision doesn't feel convincing at all - "She has congenital pyromania and was feeling insecure" feels like a cop-out, not an exciting character development.

[Alberon]

To be fair to the Scorpions they only worked as a weapon of surprise. Once Daenerys was wise to them she could avoid them fairly easily, so she could have wiped out Urine Greyjoy's fleet there and then, but grief and shock probably stopped her.

It still looks silly that they're built up as a huge threat and the dragon blows every single one up without a scratch, though.

[wooders1978]

Drogons showed himself to be adept at dodging projectiles before now
To be honest the scorpions having such a degree of accuracy was the more daft thing when they offed the other dragon

Is that GRR doesn't know how to end it? King had that with the dark tower didn't he - absolute shiter of a finale in that series as well

[NoSleep]

They showed the technique for dodging the ballistas this episode; wait until they've just fired, then move out of shot.

[wooders1978]

They showed the technique for dodging the ballistas this episode; wait until they've just fired, then move out of shot.

It's a goodun let's face it

[MiddleRabbit]

But it cut out too much, which necessitated hacked down seasons, which necessitated choppy writing and fucked characterisation. It also means that all the time we spent with the Dorne lot and the fella who was held hostage by Walder Frey was wasted because the Riverlands and Dorne basically disappeared after season five, and everywhere that wasn't Winterfell or King's Landing evaporated by the end of last season.

Who cares? His writing isn't the issue here.

But who was defying her here? The army had surrendered, the bells were ringing. This is not a normal precursor for genocide, at least what we've seen in this show so far. Dany's decision doesn't feel convincing at all - "She has congenital pyromania and was feeling insecure" feels like a cop-out, not an exciting character development.

George RR's writing is the issue if the problem is that the show went down the swanny when the source material dried up.  Which is what I was responding to.  Edmure and the Riverlands did return after Dorne though, along with the Blackfish.  Jaime going to rescue his daughter from people who turned out to be his enemies was, in terms of plot and his tendency to do what Cersei told him, entirely in keeping with all of it.  Bad pussy was crap, but let's see how RR handles it.  I wouldn't get too excited.

Danaerys was used to the oppressed rising up and helping themselves while she and her armies looked on and protected them and then they all went out and told her she was great.

In Westeros, she did everything herself at great cost and they didn't love her for it.  By the time she arrived at KL, she'd worked that out.  If the small folk weren't going to overthrow Cersei and welcome her with open arms, then fuck 'em was what she thought.  That's not congenital pyromania - although you could argue it was - a more parsimonious explanation is that it's all she had left and she was cornered.  She couldn't make anybody love her, all she could do was make people afraid.  Let's face it, it's no different to what Cersei's spent her entire life doing, is it?

People aren't always consistent with their own ideals, especially when under stress and the characters we've been shown are nuanced, on the whole. 

[colacentral]

I don't agree that anything now has any more or less weight to it than it ever did.  All the big events happened pretty suddenly. 

The characters aren't one dimensional.  Well, alright, some of them are.  Euron's a bit crap and there're others too.  Most of them though are flawed people who change their minds about things, based on trying something for a bit and deciding whether they like it or not.

Cersei, for instance, has always been a person who's convinced she's a genius when actually she's a moron.  She's ballsed up everything she's tried from the very beginning.  She"s the epitome of someone who staggers from one disaster to the next and has to have somebody to clean up her mess for her - usually Qyburn these days.  She found herself helpless after she thought the Faith Militant would sort Margery out and leave her alone.  She found herself helpless after she thought Danaerys wouldn't burn the city.  She's a terrible judge of character and has no foresight at all.

The citizens were a human shield - for her personally, not for KL.  Again, Cersei's 'clever' plan didn't work. 

I don't think it's been rushed either.  Ned wasn't going to executed and it took about ten seconds to go from him being sent to the wall to Joffrey deciding he wanted blood instead.  The Red Wedding turned on a sixpence from laughs and japes to slaughter.  Like things do.  It's what happens when things go bad.  It happens very quickly and without warning.

I disagree with virtually everything you've written but I'll just focus on the bolded. First, the idea of the human shield is patently nonsense as it has no effect on Cersei or Dany or anything at all, yet it so easily could have. That's the frustration - that things are set up, narrative decisions are made, but then it's half-arsed. It's not that Cersei's "clever" plan didn't work, it's that the writers' plan didn't work.

The Ned and Red Wedding examples are not the same kind of rushed as what's being ascribed to this season. Ned's death is set up through the whole first season, you just don't realise it at the time. The series could have ended at the end of season one and it would have worked - it's a whole story, Ned's death is inevitable. The speed with which the scene turns isn't rushed, it's designed to turn your stomach. What we're getting this season is just a truncated series of "big moments" with nothing of substance in between to make it believable.